Pool electrical issues

[janclaes47]

On my pool I have a waterfall , 3 pool led lights, Jacuzzi pump , jacuzzi air blower and 1 jacuzzi led light.

 

Each of these have their own contactor.

 

I can operate them manually or by remote.

 

For remote I have one of these

 

http://www.step1990.com/ผลิตภัณฑ์/wireless-switch/i502l/

 

From the 4 slots I use only 3.

 

Slot 1 : Jacuzzi pump - jacuzzi air blower and jacuzzi light.

 

Slot 2 : waterfall

 

Slot 4 : Pool lights

 

I can manually operate all items at the same time and there is no problem.

 

If I use the remote and operate any 2 of them in combination the contactors will open after a few seconds.

 

Take note no breaker will open, however each of the items has also it's own breaker and a safety cut of the type below is installed and set to the lowest.

 

Also if start just 1 of the functions, and then press button 3 to which nothing is connected, the contactor will also open.

 

What does this indicate?

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by janclaes47

[Crossy]

Has it ever worked properly?

 

How long after the control operation does the contactor open?

 

If you temporarily disconnect the contactors and replace with lamps does it work correctly?

 

 

[RichCor]

1 hour ago, janclaes47 said:

I can manually operate all items at the same time and there is no problem.

 

If I use the remote and operate any 2 of them in combination the contactors will open after a few seconds.

 

Take note no breaker will open, however each of the items has also it's own breaker and a safety cut of the type below is installed and set to the lowest.

 

Also if start just 1 of the functions, and then press button 3 to which nothing is connected, the contactor will also open.

 

What does this indicate?

 

It indicates that your remote has some strange properties.

 

Using a 'remote' will not be the same as manual activation. When pressing a button on the remote, that button assignment needs to be conveyed to a receiver to actuate its own contactor to simulate a manual button press. How the 'remote' unit conveys two, three or more simultaneous button presses will vary by the design of the remote.

 

You'd need to find out how your 'remote' works. 

And usually the only way to do that is to take it out of circuit and set up a test circuit and run it through its paces.

How many simultaneous buttons can be pressed / what combinations.

Length of allowed button press.

Response to multiple rapid presses.

 

If the remote is doing analog->digital then transmitting digital 'tokens' over a single radio channel to represent a button press... simultaneous button presses are gonna be confusing. (think about how a TV remote deals or doesn't deal with simultaneous button pressing).

 

Simultaneous actuation of 4 dedicated buttons should be doable. But the remote needs to be designed to do it. 

[janclaes47]

41 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Has it ever worked properly?

 

How long after the control operation does the contactor open?

 

If you temporarily disconnect the contactors and replace with lamps does it work correctly?

 

 

Probably 5 seconds before the contactor open.

 

I never tried a lamp, as i don't know which contacts on the contactor to connect it to.

 

It has been like this for long, but if i recall before it only happened if I enabled all 3 functions, now any 2 functions and it happens.

 

If I operate manually, which also engages the contactors, I can run everything at the same time indefinitely.

 

The strange thing is that to port 3 no wire is attached, but if i open any 1 of the functions by remote, then press button 3, the contactor will open after 5 seconds.

[Crossy]

Odd indeed, I was wondering if you had accidentally enabled a one-at-a-time function, but a 5 second delay suggests not.

 

If you can post a photo of the contactor we can say where to connect the lamp.

 

The controller may just be cream-crackered

[janclaes47]

2 minutes ago, RichCor said:

You'd need to find out how your 'remote' works. 

And usually the only way to do that is to take it out of circuit and set up a test circuit and run it through its paces.

How many simultaneous buttons can be pressed / what combinations.

Length of allowed button press.

Response to multiple rapid presses.

If you click on the link I posted you can see the spec of the remote, and it looks like it should be up for this purpose, as it say up to 8A per circuit.

[janclaes47]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Odd indeed, I was wondering if you had accidentally enabled a one-at-a-time function, but a 5 second delay suggests not.

 

If you can post a photo of the contactor we can say where to connect the lamp.

 

The controller may just be cream-crackered

[Crossy]

I wonder if a brown-out caused by the motors starting is resetting the controller. Time to get out the light bulbs methinks.

 

Contactor coils are on A1 and A2.

 

 

[janclaes47]

Just now, Crossy said:

I wonder if a brown-out caused by the motors starting is resetting the controller. Time to get out the light bulbs methinks.

 

Contactor coils are on A1 and A2.

 

 

OK I will report back tomorrow.

 

How do you explain the pressing of button 3 shutting down the operation?

 

There is no wire in slot number 3., but if I press button 3 ( even when nothing is running) i hear a remote click somewhere.

 

The system runs over relays

 

[RichCor]

As the remote is designed to be a replacement for 4 standard light switches, it should function fine to engage the latch function of a dedicated relay.

 

If it doesn't hold a relay closed, and subsequently doesn't keep a light bulb lit in a separate test, then time to replace the receiver.

[janclaes47]

@Crossy Something else to consider.

 

The whole system is off.

 

I first press button 3 ( you know nothing connected to it). I hear a remote click somewhere, I assume in the remote control unit.

 

Next I press button 1, and it will start up jacuzzi and close down after maybe 2 seconds. I also correct my previous statement that it takes 5 seconds, as it is more like 2.

 

I can press button 1 twice, once to disable and second time to start again, and it will start again and again shut down after 2 seconds.

 

I can do this as many times as i want.

 

Now say I press button 1 and it shuts down after 2 seconds, and I then press button 2 without pressing button 1 first to disable, then nothing will start and i can press as many buttons as i want, nothing will start any more.

 

I have now to cycle power to the control box to enable it again.

 

 

[SomchaiDIY]

Thai brand Step remote control often make trouble when near load of inductance. Power supply on these is basic with poor filters and often cause damage to microcontroller or damage in program that will not fix itself.

 

Step controller have a reset method to try but I am nearly sure it will not fix this fault.

 

Replace controller will fix problem but need mains filter or use better qualities of remote system.

 

Cheap Step brand is not good for this condition.

 

Regular fault with these controller are ->

1 Many channel operate when one only required
2 Channel turn off after time delay
3 Channel fail to operate

[janclaes47]

2 hours ago, SomchaiDIY said:

Thai brand Step remote control often make trouble when near load of inductance. Power supply on these is basic with poor filters and often cause damage to microcontroller or damage in program that will not fix itself.

 

Step controller have a reset method to try but I am nearly sure it will not fix this fault.

 

Replace controller will fix problem but need mains filter or use better qualities of remote system.

 

Cheap Step brand is not good for this condition.

 

Regular fault with these controller are ->

1 Many channel operate when one only required
2 Channel turn off after time delay
3 Channel fail to operate

 

Can you tell me where the reset button is located please, so I can give it a try.

 

Since this has a learning remote, I assume i will have to pair the remote again after reset, and i don't have the manual any more.

 

If i have to replace, what would be a better suited remote system for my application?

[SomchaiDIY]

3 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

 

Can you tell me where the reset button is located please, so I can give it a try.

 

Since this has a learning remote, I assume i will have to pair the remote again after reset, and i don't have the manual any more.

 

If i have to replace, what would be a better suited remote system for my application?

Best to view video and ask friend for translate if need.

 

Video reset clear

 

 

 

Video learning remote

 

 

[jacko45k]

I presume the 3 contactors, which look like relays, have a good solid neutral connection on the coils?

This is going to sound like BS, but you have made me think back to a problem I had years ago where an interposing  solid state 'relay' fed from a  type of remote controller gave me problems. The current draw of the contactor/relay coil,  seemed to be insufficient to hold the latch of the remote controller. It was designed for a bit more load. The solution might be to put resistors across each contactor coil. 

 

[jacko45k]

I presume the 3 contactors, which look like relays, have a good solid neutral connection on the coils?

This is going to sound like BS, but you have made me think back to a problem I had years ago where an interposing  solid state 'relay' fed from a  type of remote controller gave me problems. The current draw of the contactor/relay coil,  seemed to be insufficient to hold the latch of the remote controller. It was designed for a bit more load. The solution might be to put resistors across each contactor coil. 

 

In the meantime you could make a 4 lightbulb circuit to test the remote controller.

Good luck, boy I feel rusty!

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by jacko45k

[Crossy]

Just now, jacko45k said:

The current draw of the contactor/relay coil,  seemed to be insufficient to hold the latch of the remote controller. It was designed for a bit more load. The solution might be to put resistors across each contactor coil. 

It's actually worse than that, he's got the controller driving relays which then drive the contactor coils.

 

If the reset process doesn't work could try lamps directly on the controller outputs (leave the relays in circuit).

[janclaes47]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

It's actually worse than that, he's got the controller driving relays which then drive the contactor coils.

 

If the reset process doesn't work could try lamps directly on the controller outputs (leave the relays in circuit).

The reset process didn't work, but I haven't had time yet to test with the lamps.

 

What is worse about the relays, and how should i improve it?

[Crossy]

Just now, janclaes47 said:

What is worse about the relays, and how should i improve it?

Jacko was wondering if the contactor coils were too low a load for the controller, those relays are even lower, that's what I meant by "worse".

 

Hook up 4 lamps (say 40W) directly to the controller outputs, leave the relays connected. See if it makes any difference. If it does we can formulate a solution.

 

Do you actually have a diagram of your control box?

[janclaes47]

9 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Jacko was wondering if the contactor coils were too low a load for the controller, those relays are even lower, that's what I meant by "worse".

 

Hook up 4 lamps (say 40W) directly to the controller outputs, leave the relays connected. See if it makes any difference. If it does we can formulate a solution.

 

Do you actually have a diagram of your control box?

 

No diagram of the control box.

 

I just connected a lamp to A1 & A2, but then the contactor doesn't engage.

[Crossy]

Just now, janclaes47 said:

I just connected a lamp to A1 & A2, but then the contactor doesn't engage.

If that is actually the case, and you did it right, there's something very, very wrong.

 

Note that the suggestion to connect to A1 / A2 came before we knew about your relays. Current thinking is lamp on the controller output (to neutral) but leave the relay connected too.

 

Ideally you should try to load up all the outputs but I know you may not have enough lamps for that.

 

[janclaes47]

Just now, Crossy said:

If that is actually the case, and you did it right, there's something very, very wrong.

 

Note that the suggestion to connect to A1 / A2 came before we knew about your relays. Current thinking is lamp on the controller output (to neutral) but leave the relay connected too.

 

Ideally you should try to load up all the outputs but I know you may not have enough lamps for that.

 

I of course removed the wires that were in A1 and A2, and replaced them by the wires from the lamp.

 

I selected the waterfall contactor.

 

So if I think you suggest to put one wire of the lamp in one of the controller outputs. Where do i get my neutral of the lamp from. Also from the controller?

[janclaes47]

I also measured and the wires that were in A1 and A2 of the waterfall contactor have always 220v

[Crossy]

Just now, janclaes47 said:

I of course removed the wires that were in A1 and A2, and replaced them by the wires from the lamp.

At this point I suggest you call an electrician.

 

If you want to continue, you can get the neutral for the lamp(s) from the controller too.

 

But I'm afraid the above quote scares me, I don't want to give advice which may injure you.

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

I of course removed the wires that were in A1 and A2, and replaced them by the wires from the lamp.

 

I selected the waterfall contactor.

 

So if I think you suggest to put one wire of the lamp in one of the controller outputs. Where do i get my neutral of the lamp from. Also from the controller?

That explains why the contactor didn't operate!

Yes use the common neutral on the controller outputs, which is likely also the controller neutral input.

 

Like Crossy I am a little concerned.

Edited March 24, 2018 by jacko45k

[janclaes47]

9 minutes ago, Crossy said:

At this point I suggest you call an electrician.

 

If you want to continue, you can get the neutral for the lamp(s) from the controller too.

 

But I'm afraid the above quote scares me, I don't want to give advice which may injure you.

I have to correct my comment.

 

L1 and L2 have constant power.

 

When the contactor engages A1 and A2 as well as T1 and T2 get 220V.

 

But I don't know why contactor doesn't engage when the wires from A1 and A2 are removed.

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, janclaes47 said:

But I don't know why contactor doesn't engage when the wires from A1 and A2 are removed.

Because they provide the power to the contactor coil.

 

Put it back together, get a beer, call the man who built it for you or a competent sparks.

 

[janclaes47]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Because they provide the power to the contactor coil.

 

Put it back together, get a beer, call the man who built it for you or a competent sparks.

 

The man who built if for me is a foreigner, member of this forum by the way, who has done a runner.

 

I connected the lamp to output 2 of the controller < removed the wire that goes to the relay. switch on 2 and lamp lights up.

 

Open the pool lights and lamp goes out, and contactor from pool lights open also after few seconds

[Crossy]

Do you have any more lamps?

 

If not, remove the wires from the controller outputs and leave just the lamp.

 

Turn on the lamp using the controller. Press another button.

 

Lamps goes out = faulty controller, not a lot else it can be.

 

[janclaes47]

11 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Do you have any more lamps?

 

If not, remove the wires from the controller outputs and leave just the lamp.

 

Turn on the lamp using the controller. Press another button.

 

Lamps goes out = faulty controller, not a lot else it can be.

 

I think we have a positive that the controller needs replaced.

 

Any suggestions for a better quality which doesn't break the bank?