Renting condo from wife...

[HauptmannUK]

Ok, an odd topic but bear with me.....

 

In another thread I describe how I will be taking early retirement later this year. I'll have c.฿100k/mo. index-linked pension, a bit of income from other sources, plus £160k cash to invest.

 

Now, my wife and I have been together for a few years and about 6 years ago she built a nice house in Isan. She paid 90% - I paid for the windows IIRC. She also owns land (farm and building plots).

I don't want to stay in Isan more than a few months each year, so we will split remaining time between (mostly) Jomtien and UK.

We had planned to rent in Jomtien.

However my wife has around ฿3M in GBP and wants to 'invest' it in Thailand.

One idea she has hit upon is that she buys an apartment in Jomtien and then I pay her 'rent' for my share of the occupancy....

e.g. she buys an apartment for ฿3M. Market rent is, say, 20k/mo. and so I pay her 10k/mo.

She will not be working (at my request) so this will be her 'income'.  She thinks that with the rise in Chinese tourism the condo prices will also rise so it will be a good investment. Assuming I die before her she will sell the apartment and go back to Isan. She doesn't want to be a landlady to 'strangers'.

I am less keen on the idea - but it does have the attraction of stopping her investing in another 'business'  - she already has one in Thailand (haircutting shop) run by her sister and never returns a profit!

Obviously choosing a suitable apartment will be a nightmare - but she plans rent-before-buy.

Thoughts on this scheme?

[jackdd]

Actually i suggested nearly the same to my GF, so in my opinion this idea makes sense.

Our case: My GF likes to say stuff like "renting is a waste of money" and plans to buy a condo in the future. I on the other hand like renting because it keeps me flexible and trouble free.

So my suggestion was, that if she buys a condo she buys it by herself and i just pay half of the "usual" monthly rent as rent to her as long as we stay there. So she is buying and is happy, and i'm renting, and i'm happy as well

If we move somewhere else she has to find somebody who will rent it then, but that's her problem and i don't want to have anything to do with it, which is ok for her.

Edited March 26, 2018 by jackdd

[Emster23]

If you two are both happy with it, does not matter what we think.

Not so sure about rise in condo prices, however. Jomtien seems over built as it is. Considering the way Chinese tourists are treated like cattle here, I wonder if they would want to invest.

[dotpoom]

As I' m nearing the end of my lifespan and to make things simpler for "she who must be obeyed" after my passing (sorting out wills and stuff). I bought a condo in my wife's name, went to the land office and signed a contract stating that I will be renting it from her for the next 20 years (I won't be around longer than that methinks), that information is stamped into the chanote so she cannot sell it without my signature (without my agreeing). Did that just to cover my back in case we split up. This plan also has made a new person of her....she now has a condo in her own name.

PS...we entered a nominal rent of 6,000 Bt. a month as she will have to pay tax on the income...it is a going "business" she owns now, not just a condo.

Edited March 26, 2018 by dotpoom

[jackdd]

8 minutes ago, dotpoom said:

As I' m nearing the end of my lifespan and to make things simpler for "she who must be obeyed" after my passing (sorting out wills and stuff). I bought a condo in my wife's name, went to the land office and signed a contract stating that I will be renting it from her for the next 20 years (I won't be around longer than that methinks), that information is stamped into the chanote so she cannot sell it without my signature (without my agreeing). Did that just to cover my back in case we split up. This plan also has made a new person of her....she now has a condo in her own name.

PS...we entered a nominal rent of 6,000 Bt. a month as she will have to pay tax on the income...it is a going "business" she owns now, not just a condo.

Any contract between husband and wife can be voided by either party after a divorce. So the contract that you made with her is worth nothing in case you split up, she can just kick you out and sell it.

[HauptmannUK]

1 hour ago, Emster23 said:

If you two are both happy with it, does not matter what we think.

Not so sure about rise in condo prices, however. Jomtien seems over built as it is. Considering the way Chinese tourists are treated like cattle here, I wonder if they would want to invest.

I am quite sure that Jomtien condo prices won't rise - but my wife has previously bought land that's risen in price so she's convinced prices only go one way!  I would not buy a condo in Thailand. But for my wife its probably the least financially risky thing she's likely to do with her money.  If she keeps the money in the bank she'll end up giving most of it away.  Otherwise she might buy a business - which will involve a lot of work and no gain.

[newnative]

2 hours ago, Emster23 said:

If you two are both happy with it, does not matter what we think.

Not so sure about rise in condo prices, however. Jomtien seems over built as it is. Considering the way Chinese tourists are treated like cattle here, I wonder if they would want to invest.

The Chinese are already buying condos here and that likely will continue.

[bontang]

My Daughter  2 x nice 1 bedroom Condos Fully Furnished for Sale in Jomtien 36m2 both units are side by side Sea View,

Reason she is selling she will finish High School soon & move to Australia Uni to continue her Education,

you can contact her via E mail <<<<Email removed as per forum rules, please use PM function to contact>>>>

Thank you

 

[newnative]

52 minutes ago, HauptmannUK said:

I am quite sure that Jomtien condo prices won't rise - but my wife has previously bought land that's risen in price so she's convinced prices only go one way!  I would not buy a condo in Thailand. But for my wife its probably the least financially risky thing she's likely to do with her money.  If she keeps the money in the bank she'll end up giving most of it away.  Otherwise she might buy a business - which will involve a lot of work and no gain.

      Buy wisely and your Jomtien condo will likely at least retain its value.  A good example is View Talay 2 and I think seaview condos at VT5 are doing ok, too.  Lumpini Park Beach Jomtien is a nice beachfront project with lots of amenities, including 2 beautiful pools, and a very reasonable condo fee.  I would recommend only buying seaview with a location close to the baht bus line.  The good thing about your wife's idea is you will be paying a family member rent rather than throwing the rent money out the window to a stranger.

[jkcjag]

With respect to being able to live your lifespan without danger of being kicked out of a house on land owned by someone else, no matter what the circumstances are, divorce or otherwise, consider a "Usufruct" agreement.

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/usufruct-agreement-thailand/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwtOLVBRCZARIsADPLtJ00Q_2xyyf1GsH-qgGmPGB355n_mgpXjd9HgqfD1R6R-3ZiuOLVzSUaAr52EALw_wcB

https://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Usufructs.php

https://www.samuiforsale.com/real-rights/usufruct-property-rights.html

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/171307-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-usufruct-agreements-in-thailand/

I've done it 3 times so far. First time in Bangkok the fees were Baht70 I think...the correct charge at the land office.

In Hua Hin they insisted on a bribe, which cost me Baht30,000 for them to process the paperwork!

Second time in Hua Hin we were ready for their demands and my wife refused...resulting in the correct small charge.

 

[jackdd]

29 minutes ago, jkcjag said:

With respect to being able to live your lifespan without danger of being kicked out of a house on land owned by someone else, no matter what the circumstances are, divorce or otherwise, consider a "Usufruct" agreement.

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/usufruct-agreement-thailand/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwtOLVBRCZARIsADPLtJ00Q_2xyyf1GsH-qgGmPGB355n_mgpXjd9HgqfD1R6R-3ZiuOLVzSUaAr52EALw_wcB

https://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Usufructs.php

https://www.samuiforsale.com/real-rights/usufruct-property-rights.html

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/171307-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-usufruct-agreements-in-thailand/

I've done it 3 times so far. First time in Bangkok the fees were Baht70 I think...the correct charge at the land office.

In Hua Hin they insisted on a bribe, which cost me Baht30,000 for them to process the paperwork!

Second time in Hua Hin we were ready for their demands and my wife refused...resulting in the correct small charge.

 

 

3 hours ago, jackdd said:

Any contract between husband and wife can be voided by either party after a divorce. So the contract that you made with her is worth nothing in case you split up, she can just kick you out and sell it.

 

So you just wasted money by doing an Usufruct with your wife

[HauptmannUK]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

      Buy wisely and your Jomtien condo will likely at least retain its value.  A good example is View Talay 2 and I think seaview condos at VT5 are doing ok, too.  Lumpini Park Beach Jomtien is a nice beachfront project with lots of amenities, including 2 beautiful pools, and a very reasonable condo fee.  I would recommend only buying seaview with a location close to the baht bus line.  The good thing about your wife's idea is you will be paying a family member rent rather than throwing the rent money out the window to a stranger.

We airbnb'ed a variety of condo's over the past few years to discover what we like (often you don't know until you try). We need somewhere that we can tolerate living, as well as retaining value.

Hated The Base (lots of noisy Chinese). Didn't like Jomtien Beach condo at all.  Right now we are trying Unixx and don't like it either.

VT2 was OK.

The nicest one we found was a small old condo (80's built) which seemed quiet and very habitable.

 

The condo market seems to be in a complete mess to me. They look cheap by UK (outside London) prices, but actually when you look at the construction standards, usable floor area and quality they are not cheap.... Everywhere is overbuilt and most blocks seem to be plagued by 'illegal' short term lettings.

[JOC]

Actually your wife is the one taking the risk here....

Since you are married, the new condo will be common property......making you 50% owner without spending a baht....makes a nice change from the usual scenario here....

[JOC]

6 minutes ago, HauptmannUK said:

We airbnb'ed a variety of condo's over the past few years to discover what we like (often you don't know until you try). We need somewhere that we can tolerate living, as well as retaining value.

Hated The Base (lots of noisy Chinese). Didn't like Jomtien Beach condo at all.  Right now we are trying Unixx and don't like it either.

VT2 was OK.

The nicest one we found was a small old condo (80's built) which seemed quiet and very habitable.

 

The condo market seems to be in a complete mess to me. They look cheap by UK (outside London) prices, but actually when you look at the construction standards, usable floor area and quality they are not cheap.... Everywhere is overbuilt and most blocks seem to be plagued by 'illegal' short term lettings.

Consider Hua Hin.....

[HauptmannUK]

23 minutes ago, JOC said:

Actually your wife is the one taking the risk here....

Since you are married, the new condo will be common property......making you 50% owner without spending a baht....makes a nice change from the usual scenario here....

Yes, I realise that. Ditto the house in Isan I guess (theoretically).  My investment in Thailand has been fairly modest.  I aim to keep it that way with most of my money staying in UK.

I love my wife dearly and she is a genuinely good hearted person. She's a very sincere Buddhist and big believer in Karma. Unfortunately she's a bit too trusting and generous and a sucker for any kind of hard-luck story. I have had to stop her giving money away more than a few times....

[blackcab]

6 hours ago, jackdd said:

Any contract between husband and wife can be voided by either party after a divorce. So the contract that you made with her is worth nothing in case you split up, she can just kick you out and sell it.

 

Nearly any contract, but not all contracts. There are some exceptions.

 

In terms of a usufruct the wife cannot just go to the Land Office and demand the usufruct be cancelled. I guarantee you she will get nowhere.

 

This is because a usufruct is a real property right and it is governed by the Civil and Commercial Code dealing with property (Book IV) rather than contracts (Book III).

 

Of course there is the real possibility the Court cancels the usufruct as part of the divorce settlement.

 

If the Court doesn't then her only option is to pay to take the matter to Civil Court, where things could well get messy if the husband paid for the property and has proof.

[MaeJoMTB]

22 minutes ago, blackcab said:

In terms of a usufruct the wife cannot just go to the Land Office and demand the usufruct be cancelled. I guarantee you she will get nowhere.

Pretty much, she can.

[blackcab]

12 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Pretty much, she can.

 

She can demand, but it won't be done.

 

A usufruct is a real property right, which takes precedence over contract law.

 

If you know of any cases where a Land Office has cancelled a usufruct based solely upon the demand of a spouse, please let me know.

 

I work in the property industry in Thailand, and in my experience the Land Office won't cancel a usufruct unless either the usufruct is time expired, the usufructee dies or a Court orders it.