How Many Have Left Los

[TAWP]

I'm calling for all Farangs to pull there economic and intellectual investments out of Thailand, just for a laugh, and see what happens. (judging by the stock market in recent weeks, a lot already have)

Suggestion duly noted and completely ignored dgoz, but thanks for the idea.

If you took your 'intellectual investment' out of Thailand, would anyone notice?

Another clean Bendix kao dode.

I think we need some Muay Thai smileys on TV, just to add the visual effect.

There already exists smileys for posts of that kind >>

[Jet Gorgon]

Thanks, I'll send you a free copy

I'll be waiting.

[terry57]

Promises, promises and more promises. Farang always promise that they are moving out because of this or that - I've been hearing these rants for the last 9 years. The fact remains that when I moved to Hua Hin there were a few hundred farang now there are a few thousand easily and growing rapidly. Same with friends in Isaan. Years ago they were living in remote villages with only thais, now there are farang all over the place up there and many farang houses being built. The truth is that not only are farang not leaving en masse, but that the numbers are not going down at all. Sure some are leaving, but two come to take there place!

And the only people who are going to miss the ones that are leaving are the landlords of 5000 apartments, the visa run operators and the bar owners who put on free Friday night buffets.

So . . . the laws have worked perfectly, haven't they?

Not when some of the 'decent' people that have built houses and raised children etc here decide to go.Not that you would give a rats arse though.

why would people leave if they have a wife, kids and a house here.?

very easy to meet the visa regulation under those conditions and there must be more to the story.

instead of attacking bendix how about telling us exactly why they left town.

please dont throw up the xenophobia issue as thats in the mind of the beholder.

there's always 2 sides to the story so lets hear it.

i hope its a very good story.

i dont believe that people who really want to be in los, get up and leave, unless they have been thinking about it anyway.

just one more thing, some people are saying they may leave because they cant afford the new cost related to visa's.

how they going to get on going back into the real world.?

Terry,sometimes I actually wonder if you read any of these posts.read some of the other posts.The xenophobia thingie is alive and well,even if you chose not to acknowledge it.Anyway,that is beside the point.have a read at some of the genuine posts here...

BTW,I did not say that people would leave their wife and kids here.assumption again?

sorry mate,

but im only going with my opinion and thats ok ain't it.? you dont have to like it.

i'll quote you and you can tell me what i missed.

" not when some of the decent people that have built house and raised children etc decide to go "

what have i missed ?

ill ask you again, why would they go if they are 100% legit and happy with there lot.?

if there not happy, its better for them to leave and they will not be missed as us farang are a dime a dozen.

look mate,

i'll try and explain to you my take on the xenophobic issue as you dont read me correctly.

xenophobia does exist in thailand, no doubt about that, but no more than any other country.

thats all im saying and its not all doom and gloom like some posters are trying to make out.

after all, look around at a the many farang having a very nice life in thailand, loving there wife, kids and adopted country.

all im saying is that if you think thailand is getting that bad its time for you to go back to where you want to be.

for every 1 farang that leave there will be a 1000 that will stay exactly where they are, so i cant see the problem actually.

thank you very much.

[Jet Gorgon]

I'm calling for all Farangs to pull there economic and intellectual investments out of Thailand, just for a laugh, and see what happens. (judging by the stock market in recent weeks, a lot already have)

Suggestion duly noted and completely ignored dgoz, but thanks for the idea.

If you took your 'intellectual investment' out of Thailand, would anyone notice?

Another clean Bendix kao dode.

I think we need some Muay Thai smileys on TV, just to add the visual effect.

There already exists smileys for posts of that kind >>

I want the music and the blows to the jugular.

[Heng]

If "we" all did , they would.

Actually if "you" did have a little more unity, none of this would be an issue. You'd have your own special interest groups influencing those who make the rules... just like anywhere else in the world. It's still not too late to start you know.

Interesting. Do you recall some threads that started about a year ago in this forum regarding Foreigners Rights in Thailand and starting organizations to lobby for them? The mods thought those subjects are inapproriate for this forum and the threads were all closed.

I can understand why. It will be ever so easy for Thailand to block any sites lobbying, blacklist everyone related, not renew their visas and send them home.

It's all relative. Some immigrants have had to face lower, some have had to deal with much higher hurdles.

[chuchok]

Promises, promises and more promises. Farang always promise that they are moving out because of this or that - I've been hearing these rants for the last 9 years. The fact remains that when I moved to Hua Hin there were a few hundred farang now there are a few thousand easily and growing rapidly. Same with friends in Isaan. Years ago they were living in remote villages with only thais, now there are farang all over the place up there and many farang houses being built. The truth is that not only are farang not leaving en masse, but that the numbers are not going down at all. Sure some are leaving, but two come to take there place!

And the only people who are going to miss the ones that are leaving are the landlords of 5000 apartments, the visa run operators and the bar owners who put on free Friday night buffets.

So . . . the laws have worked perfectly, haven't they?

Not when some of the 'decent' people that have built houses and raised children etc here decide to go.Not that you would give a rats arse though.

why would people leave if they have a wife, kids and a house here.?

very easy to meet the visa regulation under those conditions and there must be more to the story.

instead of attacking bendix how about telling us exactly why they left town.

please dont throw up the xenophobia issue as thats in the mind of the beholder.

there's always 2 sides to the story so lets hear it.

i hope its a very good story.

i dont believe that people who really want to be in los, get up and leave, unless they have been thinking about it anyway.

just one more thing, some people are saying they may leave because they cant afford the new cost related to visa's.

how they going to get on going back into the real world.?

Terry,sometimes I actually wonder if you read any of these posts.read some of the other posts.The xenophobia thingie is alive and well,even if you chose not to acknowledge it.Anyway,that is beside the point.have a read at some of the genuine posts here...

BTW,I did not say that people would leave their wife and kids here.assumption again?

sorry mate,

but im only going with my opinion and thats ok ain't it.? you dont have to like it.

i'll quote you and you can tell me what i missed.

" not when some of the decent people that have built house and raised children etc decide to go "

what have i missed ?

ill ask you again, why would they go if they are 100% legit and happy with there lot.?

if there not happy, its better for them to leave and they will not be missed as us farang are a dime a dozen.

look mate,

i'll try and explain to you my take on the xenophobic issue as you dont read me correctly.

xenophobia does exist in thailand, no doubt about that, but no more than any other country.

thats all im saying and its not all doom and gloom like some posters are trying to make out.

after all, look around at a the many farang having a very nice life in thailand, loving there wife, kids and adopted country.

all im saying is that if you think thailand is getting that bad its time for you to go back to where you want to be.

for every 1 farang that leave there will be a 1000 that will stay exactly where they are, so i cant see the problem actually.

thank you very much.

where did I say they would be leaving women and children behind?

Ok,then read this....

a friend of mine who has 4 condos let out to falangs , has had 2 contracts broken in the past month by falangs saying they cant get a visa to stay. they had both previously been here for many years.

i have no idea whether these falangs are the right kind of falang or the wrong kind of falang , but they told my friend that they had had enough of jumping through hoops here to satisfy immigration and the labour department and were moving out. they closed down their small businesses and three thais lost their jobs.

one moved to japan and one to malaysia.

hardly an exodus , but maybe indicative of a trend.

Or a few of the others.

[tijnebijn]

Ok,whatever people are saying with all the visa rules etc.

For me it is also harder to cope right now,do not have the requirements right now.

But the sky is still not falling ,oh no.I do agree with the statement about how you look if,the botlle is half full or half empty.With me it is also half full,but still not full like I want.

So I just try not to be lazy and try (IS THE SMALLEST THING I CAN DO),to make something out of it.

Me also complaining,cause it is so abrubt disturbing instant coming,but indeed have to go with the rules,and until I can manage that,have to go around a bit.

And this is not illegal,when you make a new visa,we all write down ,stay with family.They do give it themselves or not,if they not like it,just not give it then.When they want me to change my status,got to be ready or not.?

Like you can make money 40k a month easily like that.Now seriously decided to leave home here (small village)and move to the city(CM),like I sad just try.And will not leave Thailand until I drop.basta.

And i still got the feeling when the democrats come into power next things will simplify.thumps crossed.

[rogerinthai]

It's all relative. Some immigrants have had to face lower, some have had to deal with much higher hurdles.

Correct, and I don't want to sound as if I am making excuses, but in the era of communication, computers and flights, was it ever easier to make sure someone gets out and stays out? Especially when this someone does not look a tiny bit like the local population?

Western Countires have laws regarding foreigners who stay there for years with families, they have a good chance to become legitimate, allowed to stay indefinitely and work with no limitations - but in Thailand, even those who stayed here legitimately, for many many years, do not receive such rights.

Edited January 26, 2007 by rogerinthai

[Jet Gorgon]

How about just deal with the changes or go. Life ain't fair anywhere. So quit whingeing and go do something useful.

[terry57]

Promises, promises and more promises. Farang always promise that they are moving out because of this or that - I've been hearing these rants for the last 9 years. The fact remains that when I moved to Hua Hin there were a few hundred farang now there are a few thousand easily and growing rapidly. Same with friends in Isaan. Years ago they were living in remote villages with only thais, now there are farang all over the place up there and many farang houses being built. The truth is that not only are farang not leaving en masse, but that the numbers are not going down at all. Sure some are leaving, but two come to take there place!

And the only people who are going to miss the ones that are leaving are the landlords of 5000 apartments, the visa run operators and the bar owners who put on free Friday night buffets.

So . . . the laws have worked perfectly, haven't they?

Not when some of the 'decent' people that have built houses and raised children etc here decide to go.Not that you would give a rats arse though.

why would people leave if they have a wife, kids and a house here.?

very easy to meet the visa regulation under those conditions and there must be more to the story.

instead of attacking bendix how about telling us exactly why they left town.

please dont throw up the xenophobia issue as thats in the mind of the beholder.

there's always 2 sides to the story so lets hear it.

i hope its a very good story.

i dont believe that people who really want to be in los, get up and leave, unless they have been thinking about it anyway.

just one more thing, some people are saying they may leave because they cant afford the new cost related to visa's.

how they going to get on going back into the real world.?

Terry,sometimes I actually wonder if you read any of these posts.read some of the other posts.The xenophobia thingie is alive and well,even if you chose not to acknowledge it.Anyway,that is beside the point.have a read at some of the genuine posts here...

BTW,I did not say that people would leave their wife and kids here.assumption again?

sorry mate,

but im only going with my opinion and thats ok ain't it.? you dont have to like it.

i'll quote you and you can tell me what i missed.

" not when some of the decent people that have built house and raised children etc decide to go "

what have i missed ?

ill ask you again, why would they go if they are 100% legit and happy with there lot.?

if there not happy, its better for them to leave and they will not be missed as us farang are a dime a dozen.

look mate,

i'll try and explain to you my take on the xenophobic issue as you dont read me correctly.

xenophobia does exist in thailand, no doubt about that, but no more than any other country.

thats all im saying and its not all doom and gloom like some posters are trying to make out.

after all, look around at a the many farang having a very nice life in thailand, loving there wife, kids and adopted country.

all im saying is that if you think thailand is getting that bad its time for you to go back to where you want to be.

for every 1 farang that leave there will be a 1000 that will stay exactly where they are, so i cant see the problem actually.

thank you very much.

where did I say they would be leaving women and children behind?

Ok,then read this....

a friend of mine who has 4 condos let out to falangs , has had 2 contracts broken in the past month by falangs saying they cant get a visa to stay. they had both previously been here for many years.

i have no idea whether these falangs are the right kind of falang or the wrong kind of falang , but they told my friend that they had had enough of jumping through hoops here to satisfy immigration and the labour department and were moving out. they closed down their small businesses and three thais lost their jobs.

one moved to japan and one to malaysia.

hardly an exodus , but maybe indicative of a trend.

Or a few of the others.

hey there chucky,

we are reading the same book but you ain't on the same page.

i never said they would leave there family behind.

one would think that if they had a family here and decided to leave they would take the whole family. ?

it would have to be a very good reason one would think, and a few changes in the rules should not worry a married man with access to a marrage visa who really wants to be here.

that my point , that they must of been thinking of making the move anyway and these few changes have just made up there mind.

the last example you have highlighted entails a few falang that have broken there lease and moved out to where ever.

big deal, and whats that proving out of all the falang that live in the los.?

nothing really, as we must know the real reason for them leaving.

if you read that post correctly, it tells me that maybe they where visa runners and could not meet the new guide lines.

it gives no reason really, so how can we use that as a basis for a discussion?

its purely assumption.

ill give you some facts and here we go.

i know many farang working in los,

every one has a work permit, is legit, pays taxes and aren't going anywhere.

there in for the long haul as they want to be here and meet all the criteria to stay.

unaffected by these new rules and they continue on as normal.

[TAWP]

How about just deal with the changes or go. Life ain't fair anywhere. So quit whingeing and go do something useful.

Trying to be funny?

[rogerinthai]

How about just deal with the changes or go.

You are missing the point. There is another possibility pointed out by Henq - don't bend over to changes, and don't leave - instead, stay and struggle to change things!

[samran]

Interesting. Do you recall some threads that started about a year ago in this forum regarding Foreigners Rights in Thailand and starting organizations to lobby for them? The mods thought those subjects are inapproriate for this forum and the threads were all closed.

I can understand why. It will be ever so easy for Thailand to block any sites lobbying, blacklist everyone related, not renew their visas and send them home.

Discussion of moderation actions is against forum rules.

Having said that, from a non-moderation point of view, the organisation simply never really took off. The foreign chambers do their jobs in this respect to a large extent, and they have the access to do that.

From a personal perspective, the proposed grouping was so naive in its approach to lobbying here in Thailand that it wouldn't have worked. Yes, and to answer your question, I have lobbied inside of government, and no, nary a statang ever changed hands.

[Boo]

Samran, you may know the answer to this being a very knowledgable young man. Iif a foreigner has PR in Thailand, are they still affected by the changed in the visa rule or does PR give them some kind of protection against all the changes?

[rogerinthai]

Discussion of moderation actions is against forum rules.

Having said that, from a non-moderation point of view, the organisation simply never really took off. The foreign chambers do their jobs in this respect to a large extent, and they have the access to do that.

From a personal perspective, the proposed grouping was so naive in its approach to lobbying here in Thailand that it wouldn't have worked. Yes, and to answer your question, I have lobbied inside of government, and no, nary a statang ever changed hands.

Samran,

Are we allowed to speak about the issue of lobbying foreigners rights here? I am not trying to discuss moderation issues or anything, just to be clear whether this issue is a taboo or not. Every decision of admin/mods should of course be respected.

The foreign chambers do their jobs in this respect to a large extent, and they have the access to do that.

Well, apparently they do not have enough influence or otherwise not trying hard enough. Americans, however, seem to have done better than others.

the proposed grouping was so naive in its approach to lobbying here in Thailand that it wouldn't have worked

Even assuming that this is correct, it doesn't mean that they couldn't learn from their mistakes and revise their approach, or that other groups could not do better.

Edited January 26, 2007 by rogerinthai

[samran]

Samran, you may know the answer to this being a very knowledgable young man. Iif a foreigner has PR in Thailand, are they still affected by the changed in the visa rule or does PR give them some kind of protection against all the changes?

Once you have PR here, you can stay indefinetly. The only time you can lose it is when you leave the country for more than a year, as the re-entry permits are only valid for one year.

Benefits as far as I can see include:

- Stay as long as you want.

- No more need to have income requirements for your stay to support the wifey

- Ability to get loans from Thai banks

- Work permits get easier to get, as you don't have to deal with the immigration department again (only the Labour department and their requirements aren't as stringent)

- A formal set of Thai ID, which in my experience, makes life incredibly easy.

- Never getting kicked out if you lose your job, split up with the other half, or can't afford the retirement req's.

- step to a Thai PP for those who want it.

Biggest challenge for most of the punters here is that you need three years of tax returns, which, unless I'm wrong, rules people who don't ever work here (eg retirment visa's). Having said that, the retirement visa in OZ isn't a pathway to PR either last I read.

Best look at Camerata's sticky at the top of the visa and immigration forum for the best rundown.

[samran]

Discussion of moderation actions is against forum rules.

Having said that, from a non-moderation point of view, the organisation simply never really took off. The foreign chambers do their jobs in this respect to a large extent, and they have the access to do that.

From a personal perspective, the proposed grouping was so naive in its approach to lobbying here in Thailand that it wouldn't have worked. Yes, and to answer your question, I have lobbied inside of government, and no, nary a statang ever changed hands.

Samran,

Are we allowed to speak about the issue of lobbying foreigners rights here? I am not trying to discuss moderation issues or anything, just to be clear whether this issue is a taboo or not. Every decision of admin/mods should of course be respected.

The foreign chambers do their jobs in this respect to a large extent, and they have the access to do that.

Well, apparently they do not have enough influence or otherwise not trying hard enough. Americans, however, seem to have done better than others.

the proposed grouping was so naive in its approach to lobbying here in Thailand that it wouldn't have worked

Even assuming that this is correct, it doesn't mean that they couldn't learn from their mistakes and revise their approach, or that other groups could not do better.

Just don't let it turn into a Thai bash. For some reason, a fair few punters seem to think that not getting their own way = all Thai's are morons.

And though it won't make you fall foul of the forum rules, I'd avoid the 'if it wasn't for Farang's, Thailand would fall in a heap' line as well. It just ain't true (though a few buffalo's will unfortunately, probably not make it...). Best to know your bargaining position from the get-go.

[Nikkijah]

I've never before considered going back home. I have a wife and child here! but I recently heard the news about the two foreign teachers that were jailed for not having real certs.... thats scares the hel_l out of me! they were given 3 months jail terms for teaching kids English!!!!

What else is this Xenophobic goverment capable of? I for one don't want to find out.

I thought as you all did that the Thaksin goverment was bad news for Foreigners but this new goverment makes them look tame in comparison!

Even tho I have a degree and am legal it still makes me think that this country isnt safe to be in anymore, at least not for Farangs.

The negatives about Thailand are piling up an all the positives are drying up. I've already made plans to leave even though I DON"T want to. Its just too scary here.

Greg

I personally know one of the guys who was locked up, his name was Greg actually, Greg

Anyway, he was a lovely guy, had been working for quite some time in the same school, was a very good and committed teacher and had settled here with only good intentions, alas, along came the inspectors and then the school let him down, claiming they knew nothing of the situation and that checks had been made on his qualifications

Although he was in fact working 'illegally' I'm not sure a 3 month jail sentence is appropriate, even deportation and black-listing is a bit too much, perhaps a fine or something reasonable?...

Enough rambling from me, Greg is the only guy I know who has left(in theory) no doubt when he is released from Bang Bon(in case anybody wants to pay a visit) he will be immediately deported, hence the original reason for my post

Respect and best wishes to Greg

Nikkijah

[rogerinthai]

I'd avoid the 'if it wasn't for Farang's, Thailand would fall in a heap' line as well. It just ain't true (though a few buffalo's will unfortunately, probably not make it...). Best to know your bargaining position from the get-go.

Agree 100%. I do wonder what cards foreigners do have. I read an article on Bangkok Post the other day, saying "Those who come for a quick profit are not welcome anyway; those who invest larger sums for long term, cannot close down their factories overnight [they have to stay...]". A "This is Thailand" approach, "take it or leave it".

Thailand or elsewhere, it is usually not very popular for local politicians to speak for foreigners rights; protectionism is much better understood by the masses. Why should any politician promote pro-foreigners changes in legistlation?

[bkkmick]

I must admit that I'm with Terry here. Many foreigners (myself included) with families and settled here have no intention of going anywhere, even one guy who has done his three 30 day visas in a row has gotten himself a new 60 day straight away, so he's not going anywhere either.

Having said that there are always some poor bastards that have to leave for one reason or another and my heart goes out to them. Poor sod.

[bendix]

This thread is about people leaving because of the visa changes.

I have no idea why chuchok got so aggressive.

The people he cited that I don't give a ###### about - guys who have built houses and raised children - should, if they have the commonsense of a goldfish and are prepared to sign a few documents, be able to get an O Visa, thus not being the target of the visa changes.

What's the problem here?

[rogerinthai]

The people he cited that I don't give a ###### about - guys who have built houses and raised children - should, if they have the commonsense of a goldfish and are prepared to sign a few documents, be able to get an O Visa, thus not being the target of the visa changes.

What's the problem here?

As hard as it may be to imagine for someone with a nice salary, they simply don't have enough money to qualify!

Edited January 26, 2007 by rogerinthai

[bendix]

The people he cited that I don't give a ###### about - guys who have built houses and raised children - should, if they have the commonsense of a goldfish and are prepared to sign a few documents, be able to get an O Visa, thus not being the target of the visa changes.

What's the problem here?

As hard as it may be to imagine for someone with a nice salary, they simply don't have enough money to qualify!

Well, sympathies and all that, but if they don't meet the financial requirements (which, i believe, have not been touched by the tightenings) there's not much anyone can do about it is there?

Similarly, if they built houses and had kids KNOWING they didnt satisfy very reasonable visa requirements, that is the height of irresponsibility.

Should the Thai Government make exceptions for everyone who might or might not be a decent bloke?

Anyway, this is not the thread for such a discussion.

[samran]

The people he cited that I don't give a ###### about - guys who have built houses and raised children - should, if they have the commonsense of a goldfish and are prepared to sign a few documents, be able to get an O Visa, thus not being the target of the visa changes.

What's the problem here?

As hard as it may be to imagine for someone with a nice salary, they simply don't have enough money to qualify!

forgive me if I'm mistaken, but it isn't it only the extension of stay part that has the money requirements?

[TAWP]

This thread is about people leaving because of the visa changes.

I have no idea why chuchok got so aggressive.

The people he cited that I don't give a ###### about - guys who have built houses and raised children - should, if they have the commonsense of a goldfish and are prepared to sign a few documents, be able to get an O Visa, thus not being the target of the visa changes.

What's the problem here?

if you would take some time to acctually read the posts (or threads in the visa-section) insted of only spending time basking in your own glory from having posted another post, you would have noticed that [regarding non-O]:

1) several of the [thai]embassies in asia now demand 400K in bank

2) To get extension you have to have 40K family-income

Not everyone can live up to these right now.

[TAWP]

Well, sympathies and all that, but if they don't meet the financial requirements (which, i believe, have not been touched by the tightenings) there's not much anyone can do about it is there?

Similarly, if they built houses and had kids KNOWING they didnt satisfy very reasonable visa requirements, that is the height of irresponsibility.

Should the Thai Government make exceptions for everyone who might or might not be a decent bloke?

Anyway, this is not the thread for such a discussion.

Ok, fine, you go ahead and prove that you are uneducated on this subject...what else is new...

The 40K/month is new from 1 okt 2006. 400K in bank [thai embassy, singapore] is new from 15 Jan 2007.

Now tell me, how should I have planned for this 2005?

[rogerinthai]

Well, sympathies and all that, but if they don't meet the financial requirements (which, i believe, have not been touched by the tightenings) there's not much anyone can do about it is there?

Similarly, if they built houses and had kids KNOWING they didnt satisfy very reasonable visa requirements, that is the height of irresponsibility.

Should the Thai Government make exceptions for everyone who might or might not be a decent bloke?

Do you think it is reasonable to kick out someone who lived here for many years with his Thai wife and children? Being a "decent bloke" or not is irrelevant. In my opinion (which of course, does not worth much as far as authorities are concerned), anyone who has a Thai spouse and lived here for over 5 years should be given a visa regardless of his income.

Edited January 26, 2007 by rogerinthai

[terry57]

How about just deal with the changes or go.

You are missing the point. There is another possibility pointed out by Henq - don't bend over to changes, and don't leave - instead, stay and struggle to change things!

well roger,

if you choose to fight these changes you are condeming yourself to a very miserable existance in los.

you will be preoccupied with this mission and possibly become bent and twisted regards los.

i ask you,

what is the point of staying here if this is your focus ?

would it not be easier to make an effort to accomodate the new regulations and get on with enjoying all the thing that los has to offer.

after all is said and done, isn't this our primary reason for being here ?

[bendix]

No, i don't think it's reasonable rogerinthai. It's tragic

Sadly, the cynical losers who have been visa-running and riding roughshod over thai immigration laws for years have ruined it for everyone by forcing the Government to close some loopholes.

Unfortunately, some genuinely deserving cases have been caught up in this. There is little anyone can do about that.

My contempt was reserved for the former, not the latter.

[terry57]

No, i don't think it's reasonable rogerinthai. It's tragic

Sadly, the cynical losers who have been visa-running and riding roughshod over thai immigration laws for years have ruined it for everyone by forcing the Government to close some loopholes.

Unfortunately, some genuinely deserving cases have been caught up in this. There is little anyone can do about that.

My contempt was reserved for the former, not the latter.

bendix,

bingo and you have hit the nail on the head. WELL DONE.

because of former very lax and easy immigration rules the government has been forced to close loop holes.

a few genuine people will suffer.

unfortunatly this happens everywhere in the world and it is now thailands turn to put a few things in order.

i have genuine sympathy for the decent people caught in the middle.