Israeli forces kill 16 Palestinians in Gaza border protests - Gaza medics

[dexterm]

26 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yes, and that took....how many years? Whereas, if the Palestinians would have chosen peace to begin with, they'd be in a way better place nowadays (minus a whole lot of suffering). Surely you had a point there, somewhere.

 

There are many organizations supportive of the Palestinians. Of course, not all of them fully subscribe to your version of the "story", or the bile filled, vehement bellicose style of delivery you employ. And, more importantly, not all of them identify with your extreme ideas as to appropriate solutions and their mode of application. That's just you doing the routine co-opting bit.

 

I have no doubt that Israel will take a PR hit, and I'm sure events will be exploited to the max (that's somewhat of their raison d'etre for certain parties). That it would result in a major shift, though - you've made the very same prediction on numerous past occasions.

 

There seems to be some illusion in your post that the conflict will be resolved without the Palestinian side having to give up or compromise on any claims, not exhibit a change of attitude, and not be held accountable for anything. Not being into drama, I'd say it will require quite a bit of these, and even then - it will not be the sort of rosy, happily ever after kinda peace. Better than the current situation, but not quite what you're selling.

 

 

>>There seems to be some illusion in your post that the conflict will be resolved without the Palestinian side having to give up or compromise on any claims

 

..

In the internationally accepted formula as the basis for peace Palestinians are willing to recognize Israel in the 67 borders with land swaps, a shared Jerusalem, and recognition of/compensation for refugees. So Israel gets to keep all the land it took (78%) in excess of land assigned it at Partition (56%). Israel now wants to take even more.

 

The Palestinians have compromised enough. They once owned 95% of Palestine; now they control 0%. You don't reward thieves by giving them even more.

 

[dexterm]

19 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

Whataboutery how? Why should a double standard be accepted without question? And no one said Israel should be exempt from criticism. I do not need nor intend to provide you with any such inane list, and no one prevents you from discussing Palestinian suffering. Care to make up more dreamed up nonsense?

 

Like it or not, there are worse regimes than Israel, there are many violent instances far worse than the OP - which do not get the amount of "attention" Israel does. Some of them are right next door. So once more, pretty please with sugar on top - why should Israel be singled out for different treatment?

Mainly because Israel itself claims to be different.

 

The reason Israel cops so much flak is that it is savable. It purports to be a modern democratic country. I want it to ditch the hypocrisy and actually be one. The focus can then shift to its neighbors, who may take note of the civilized country next door. At the moment they justifiably use Israel to point out US and global double standards.

Israel is right on Europe's door step and many of its Jewish citizens (clearly not all) share the common values of decency and what is right with the countries from which they emigrated.

Edited April 2, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

1 minute ago, dexterm said:

>>There seems to be some illusion in your post that the conflict will be resolved without the Palestinian side having to give up or compromise on any claims

 

..

In the internationally accepted formula as the basis for peace Palestinians are willing to recognize Israel in the 67 borders with land swaps, a shared Jerusalem, and recognition of/compensation for refugees. So Israel gets to keep all the land it took (78%) in excess of land assigned it at Partition (56%). Israel now wants to take even more.

 

The Palestinians have compromised enough. They once owned 95% of Palestine; now they control 0%. You don't reward thieves by giving them even more.

 

 

You keep making things up, over and over again. There is no such general acceptance by the Palestinians. If you're having trouble accepting this, consult the speeches of Hamas leaders as the protest commenced. Hamas, which represents a large segment of the Palestinians (some say a majority) refuses to even officially recognize Israel. You had something to say about sweeping things under the carpet?

 

As pointed out, the Palestinians would have been in a better way, had they chosen peace from the start, or at any historical/political junction afterwards. As you say, Israel will keep territory gained post-1948 - another support for the notions that delays are not in the best interests of the Palestinians. I do not support Israel's illegal settlement policies, but the reality is that they do manage to create "facts on the ground". An optimistic scenario would see all of these evacuated, a realistic one, that some will stay. How many? Depends how long things will be dragged on. And whether you like it or not, that's not just up to Israel.

 

The Palestinians never "owned" anything as a nation. That's just another one of your usual spins. There was no Palestinian State. Ever. And the Palestinians (plus their Arab sponsors) rejected the option to create one when offered under the UN resolution. Sad as it is, the level of control Palestinians have now, is the most they ever had. Doesn't matter if you like that or not. 

 

You schoolyard concepts of justice are both immaterial, and not particularly helpful for improving anything much for the Palestinians.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Mainly because Israel itself claims to be different.

 

The reason Israel cops so much flak is that it is savable. It purports to be a modern democratic country. I want it to ditch the hypocrisy and actually be one. The focus can then shift to its neighbors, who may take note of the civilized country next door. At the moment they justifiably use Israel to point out US and global double standards.

Israel is right on Europe's door step and many of its Jewish citizens (clearly not all) share the common values of decency and what is right with the countries from which they emigrated.

 

I don't know that Israel "claims to be different", or what that even means. As you routinely dismiss all Israeli claims, why would you place much value on such anyway?

 

Your nonsense take on why Israel gets so much attention is your own, disingenuous notion. There is no such consensus that nations should be treated differently according to some imagined scale of them being "savable" (not that your take on what's "savable" is compelling). There is no particular reason to adopt your faux theory of supposed effects, and nothing much to support its credibility. I'm not aware that it's a cornerstone of political theorizing relevant to the Middle East.

 

Yes, many Israelis aren't quite the agents of evil you paint them to be, thanks. Most also do not embrace the hateful agenda you spew - yet another dishonest co-opting attempt.

 

[Elfin]

On 4/1/2018 at 12:26 PM, Morch said:

 

You can call it an "excuse", whereas it was actually fact. Even UNRWA complained about using it's facilities for such purposes. You can go on ignoring Hamas actions all you like - won't make them go away, won't make responding to them an "excuse".

 

The Hamas doggedly refuses to allow oversight of construction materials brought in, and takes much of what does make it inside to its own purposes. You'll have to work hard explaining how there aren't construction materials in Gaza, while the Hamas manages to construct miles  of underground tunnels for its own use. Mind, none of these underground tunnels is used as public shelter and such.

 

The Palestinians, according to your nonsense, just want Israel gone. And somehow you expect Israel to accept that. More nonsense and more dishonesty - go on about how that BS movement you support is not against Israel's existence.

There is nothing in the BDS charter that says that it is against Israel's existence.

There is nothing in the BDS's  actions that indicates it is against Israel's existence.

It is against the use of companies who profiteer from Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank.

So dear Morch, let us go back to the topic at hand.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Elfin

[Morch]

 

@Elfin

 

Yeah, lets do go back to the topic at hand - which isn't the BS movement you support, or your attempts to misrepresent and whitewash it's less acceptable aspects. Notice how most of my post wasn't even about that, and yet your "let's get back to topic" reply somehow managed to ignore the rest of it.

[dexterm]

On 03/04/2018 at 12:36 AM, Morch said:

 

You keep making things up, over and over again. There is no such general acceptance by the Palestinians. If you're having trouble accepting this, consult the speeches of Hamas leaders as the protest commenced. Hamas, which represents a large segment of the Palestinians (some say a majority) refuses to even officially recognize Israel. You had something to say about sweeping things under the carpet?

 

As pointed out, the Palestinians would have been in a better way, had they chosen peace from the start, or at any historical/political junction afterwards. As you say, Israel will keep territory gained post-1948 - another support for the notions that delays are not in the best interests of the Palestinians. I do not support Israel's illegal settlement policies, but the reality is that they do manage to create "facts on the ground". An optimistic scenario would see all of these evacuated, a realistic one, that some will stay. How many? Depends how long things will be dragged on. And whether you like it or not, that's not just up to Israel.

 

The Palestinians never "owned" anything as a nation. That's just another one of your usual spins. There was no Palestinian State. Ever. And the Palestinians (plus their Arab sponsors) rejected the option to create one when offered under the UN resolution. Sad as it is, the level of control Palestinians have now, is the most they ever had. Doesn't matter if you like that or not. 

 

You schoolyard concepts of justice are both immaterial, and not particularly helpful for improving anything much for the Palestinians.

Nothing  made up at all apart from your lies. Your fence sitting language "no general acceptance" is the giveaway, because as you have referred yourself earlier in the thread the 3 point basis for peace was outlined in the Arab Peace Initiative almost 20 years ago, acceptable to all the global community too..apart from Israel who have never offered it 100%. Two lame duck Israeli PMs Barak and Olmert came close. When Israel returns to the initiative sincerely there will be a chance of peace..for Israel's own good.

 

Your phony narrative surrounding the Nakba betrays what a charlatan you are. The Palestinians having had their leadership imprisoned exiled or executed by the British, and their arms confiscated while UK aided Jewish militias meant, just as in the OP today, never stood a chance when Israel started stealing their land in 47.

 

Your 3rd paragraph is the usual Zionist mythology debunked many times before.
 

[dexterm]

On 03/04/2018 at 12:50 AM, Morch said:

 

I don't know that Israel "claims to be different", or what that even means. As you routinely dismiss all Israeli claims, why would you place much value on such anyway?

 

Your nonsense take on why Israel gets so much attention is your own, disingenuous notion. There is no such consensus that nations should be treated differently according to some imagined scale of them being "savable" (not that your take on what's "savable" is compelling). There is no particular reason to adopt your faux theory of supposed effects, and nothing much to support its credibility. I'm not aware that it's a cornerstone of political theorizing relevant to the Middle East.

 

Yes, many Israelis aren't quite the agents of evil you paint them to be, thanks. Most also do not embrace the hateful agenda you spew - yet another dishonest co-opting attempt.

 

Israel and its apologists frequently claim it is the only democracy in the Middle East. Modern democracies dont murder teenagers by shooting them  in the back and injure 1000s with complete impunity, then dismiss an international investigation into the atrocity.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, dexterm said:

Nothing  made up at all apart from your lies. Your fence sitting language "no general acceptance" is the giveaway, because as you have referred yourself earlier in the thread the 3 point basis for peace was outlined in the Arab Peace Initiative almost 20 years ago, acceptable to all the global community too..apart from Israel who have never offered it 100%. Two lame duck Israeli PMs Barak and Olmert came close. When Israel returns to the initiative sincerely there will be a chance of peace..for Israel's own good.

 

Your phony narrative surrounding the Nakba betrays what a charlatan you are. The Palestinians having had their leadership imprisoned exiled or executed by the British, and their arms confiscated while UK aided Jewish militias meant, just as in the OP today, never stood a chance when Israel started stealing their land in 47.

 

Your 3rd paragraph is the usual Zionist mythology debunked many times before.
 

 

Nope, the only one trying to sell porkies here is you. As for the "fence sitting" canard - it does get old, I'm not obligated to hold extreme views like yourself or other posters.

 

Now for the nonsense above. My comment, which you misrepresent was "There is no such general acceptance by the Palestinians". By editing out them last three words, you changed the meaning of the comment to suit your argument.

If you wish to argue this point, rather than the made up one you conjured, by all means. As for the usual hyperbole about the initiative being accepted to "all the  international community" - wasn't true back then, is not true today. Your usual reluctance to acknowledge that the Palestinians did not fully embrace it, not then nor now, does not change facts. And the reluctance to discuss how the initiative applies to current state of affairs in the ME is yet another cornerstone of your posts.

 

Kinda rich going on about "lies", "phony narrative", "charlatan", and "propaganda" while presenting a one-sided fairy tale version of historical events, complete with a set of them "alternative facts" you seem so fond of. There was no mention of the Nakba in the post you replied to, but even if there was, it would not have made your made up stories and "analysis" any more correct. Your grasp of "debunked" seems idiosyncratic, if that.

 

[Morch]

7 hours ago, dexterm said:

Israel and its apologists frequently claim it is the only democracy in the Middle East. Modern democracies dont murder teenagers by shooting them  in the back and injure 1000s with complete impunity, then dismiss an international investigation into the atrocity.

 

Ah, you're back with this drivel. Fine. Here we go again - democracies do not come in black and white, but a re a matter of degree. If you're having trouble with the concept, refer to any one of them surveys/rankings published routinely. Israel is a democracy - not the greatest of them by a long-shot, but hardly the worst, or on-par with some of its decidedly non-democratic neighbors. Being a democracy does not imply that a country cannot defend itself.

 

Your usual presentation ignores the fact that most "modern democracies" do not exist under similar conditions. The default hyperbole mode is engaged with the use of a  loaded term ("murder"), ignoring not all of them killed and wounded were "teenagers", not all were unarmed, and not all were peaceful protestors. As for "1000's" injured, that goes beyond even the Hamas claims.

 

Still no reasonable explanation as to why this ought to be the object of an international inquiry, when worse incidents fail to garner even the same level of verbal condemnation.

[Morch]

On 3/31/2018 at 4:09 PM, simple1 said:

Questionable. There are countless versions of who did what, when, outcomes and so on. At the URL below is yet another set of viewpoints, but appears to make valid points.

 

https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip

 

I have watched the recent news, of course not coverage of all incidents....yet there is Israeli fire at civilians who are well clear of the fencing. IDF appear to be well protected behind earthworks etc. Personally it does appear the Israeli response was OTT with the number of deaths and gunshot injuries.

 

I have no idea how the situation can be resolved by pragmatic compromises by all parties. The Trump Administration prior boasts of mediating successful resolution appear to be dead in the water.

 

 

 

As said in an earlier post, some of the optics are misleading. The pics bellow demonstrate several points made - (a) border defenses on the Israeli side are not quite as uniformly formidable, (b) non-lethal means were employed, (c) proximity of some protestors and the fence (or even IDF soldiers), (d) mass of the participants hangs back, as per organizers request, and is not targeted, (e) there were attempts to sabotage the fence or carry out attacks.

 

[Elfin]

On 4/4/2018 at 10:55 PM, Morch said:

 

@Elfin

 

Yeah, lets do go back to the topic at hand - which isn't the BS movement you support, or your attempts to misrepresent and whitewash it's less acceptable aspects. Notice how most of my post wasn't even about that, and yet your "let's get back to topic" reply somehow managed to ignore the rest of it.

You are still off topic but to clarify, I support the BDS movement-can you please tell me what the BS movement is?

The Palestinian death toll now stands at 18 according to the latest news report here, and that vid of an unarmed protester being shot in the back of the head is just sickening, but there have been many more instances  of the same sort of murders caught on video in recent years, and no doubt the IDF sniper will go unpunished because the USA and other western leaders allow Israel to have complete impunity.

One day Israel may be bought to account, no matter how long it takes to hear all cases of war crimes.

[Morch]

 

@Elfin

 

No, you're the one who keeps trying to inject the BDS BS into this topic.

 

The Palestinian death toll is actually higher, not that I expect wannabe Palestinian supporters to be on top of things. As for being sickened - allow me to point out that most of the resident wannabe Palestinian supporters fail to exhibit a similar reaction to death caused by Palestinians. So I'll take the partisan faux indignation with a a grain of salt. As expected, no comment whatsoever about attacks carried out by Hamas/Islamic Jihad, the same double standard partisan crapola. Somehow, in the usual suspects' book - Hamas & Co. do not commit any wrongdoing and war crimes.

[Morch]

.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Morch

[roobaa01]

the usual falling back into the victim role which is common tactics by muslim palestinian groups after having executed provocative violence against israel security forces. seeing palestine terrorists carrying banners "kill all jews" says enough about their violent believes.

 

wbr

roobaa01

[midas]

1 hour ago, roobaa01 said:

the usual falling back into the victim role which is common tactics by muslim palestinian groups after having executed provocative violence against israel security forces. seeing palestine terrorists carrying banners "kill all jews" says enough about their violent believes.

 

wbr

roobaa01

watching snipers shoot and kill unarmed protesters far from the actual border also says enough

[roobaa01]

a way to keep terrorist at bay.

 

wbr

roobaa01

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, roobaa01 said:

the usual falling back into the victim role which is common tactics by muslim palestinian groups after having executed provocative violence against israel security forces. seeing palestine terrorists carrying banners "kill all jews" says enough about their violent believes.

 

wbr

roobaa01

Actually that's the israeli supporters stance too "falling back into the victim role".

 

Difficult when the israelis have all the power/backing and control all the resources - but it's still the frequent refrain...

[roobaa01]

they, muslim palestinian terrorists are talking of human rights , whilst waiving the NAZIFLAG, www.israelnationalnews.com

 

wbr

roobaa01

[simple1]

19 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

they, muslim palestinian terrorists are talking of human rights , whilst waiving the NAZIFLAG, www.israelnationalnews.com

 

wbr

roobaa01

You do manage to source the most poisonous commentary - fits well with your posts

 

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/21960

[malagateddy]

Imo.I honestly think that all international financial aid etc to the palestinians should be immediately stopped until they rid themselves of the likes of hamas..it's the only way forward long term.

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Morch]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

You do manage to source the most poisonous commentary - fits well with your posts

 

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/21960

 

While I agree that the poster you replied to complaining about such things is iffy, don't really get your point. There were pics and vids of such, and it's hardly a first.

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Imo.I honestly think that all international financial aid etc to the palestinians should be immediately stopped until they rid themselves of the likes of hamas..it's the only way forward long term.

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

Most of the financial aid to the Palestinians goes through the PA, rather than directly to the Hamas. The PA, especially in recent months, used this as economical/political leverage against the Hamas. There is not straightforward way for the Palestinians to "get rid" of Hamas, even if many were so inclined.

[malagateddy]

 

Most of the financial aid to the Palestinians goes through the PA, rather than directly to the Hamas. The PA, especially in recent months, used this as economical/political leverage against the Hamas. There is not straightforward way for the Palestinians to "get rid" of Hamas, even if many were so inclined.

If that's the case..then I honestly do not see any realistic way forward..it would be very very hard to get a doctrine and hatred out of their heads/hearts

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

If that's the case..then I honestly do not see any realistic way forward..it would be very very hard to get a doctrine and hatred out of their heads/hearts

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

That would depend on the level of expectations. Expecting that the Palestinian sentiment toward Israel will significantly change is not realistic. Given Israeli government policies and actions, there's no basis for such expectations. On the other hand, Israel does have peace agreements with both Egypt and Jordan, despite the popular sentiment in both being generally hostile to Israel.

 

There are two main factions dominating Palestinian politics, and while both are hostile to Israel, one of them is significantly more so. How such differences are treated bears on one's take.

[lungbing]

Given all the sympathy for Israel killing people who approach their border,  maybe the British could shoot the illegal immigrants pouring in from the continent and then quote the inaction over Israel as precedent.

Where's the difference?

[Jingthing]

58 minutes ago, lungbing said:

Given all the sympathy for Israel killing people who approach their border,  maybe the British could shoot the illegal immigrants pouring in from the continent and then quote the inaction over Israel as precedent.

Where's the difference?

Hamas wants to destroy the state of Israel and kick out / kill the Jews living there.

 

Next ... 

[simple1]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

While I agree that the poster you replied to complaining about such things is iffy, don't really get your point. There were pics and vids of such, and it's hardly a first.

IMO the article had no purpose, other than political division. I assume most Israelis would not view the vitriolic content as constructive. 

 

No matter what photos you provide, IMO the IDF is acting disportionately with the level of force deployed. e.g. using live fire aiming at peoples legs, which will generate terrible, possibly life changing injuries, it is cruel. I do not comprehend how such behaviour assists Israeli society.

[geriatrickid]

Hamas released photos  of its martyrs. In the  Arab world version, they are holding their weapons and wearing suicide explosive vests. In the  version released to the gullible west and anti Israel brigade, they they are in sanitized poses;

 

 

Israel provided some background on 10 of the 15 dead.

 

The arab attackers have been using the public as human shields. Also, the extensive use of burning tires and smoke bombs to give cover as they attempt to breach the border is causing  confusion and misidentification of others.

 

It also i incredible that no one  takes issue with the Hamas groups inciting and encouraging of the injuries; Hamas is promoting injuries and deaths for it followers, announcing Friday it would pay the families of those killed or injured, ranging from $200 to $500 per injury and $3,000 per death. 

http://www1origin.cbn.com/cbnnews/israel/2018/april/gaza-riots-ramping-up-again-protesters-charge-border-provoking-israeli-fire

 

One can only conclude that people making claims such as these are either  intentionally ignoring the reality on the ground, or just hate Israel and jews so much that they will write anything;

 

10 hours ago, lungbing said:

Given all the sympathy for Israel killing people who approach their border,  maybe the British could shoot the illegal immigrants pouring in from the continent and then quote the inaction over Israel as precedent.

Where's the difference?

 

Are the illegal immigrants armed with suicide bomb vests? Grenades? Automatic weapons? Are these illegal immigrants seeking to kill on site any UK residents? The people who are at the Gaza border were intending to do that.

 

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

IMO the article had no purpose, other than political division. I assume most Israelis would not view the vitriolic content as constructive. 

 

No matter what photos you provide, IMO the IDF is acting disportionately with the level of force deployed. e.g. using live fire aiming at peoples legs, which will generate terrible, possibly life changing injuries, it is cruel. I do not comprehend how such behaviour assists Israeli society.

Acting disproportionately? How else do you propose that the Israeli security forces respond to armed arabs intent on killing Israelis? Do you think that the Hamas "martyrs" did their martyr photos just for fun?

 

It's time to call out those who excuse the intentional attacks on Israel as supporters of terrorism.The deaths are  intentional on the part of the  arabs. They want to be martyrs. Good. Let them be martyrs. 

 

In the meantime, pay heed to Samuel jackson.

 

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, simple1 said:

IMO the article had no purpose, other than political division. I assume most Israelis would not view the vitriolic content as constructive. 

 

No matter what photos you provide, IMO the IDF is acting disportionately with the level of force deployed. e.g. using live fire aiming at peoples legs, which will generate terrible, possibly life changing injuries, it is cruel. I do not comprehend how such behaviour assists Israeli society.

 

Well, the venue being a right wing oriented media outlet pandering to a certain segment, such columns a are a given. I don't know that considerations of what's "constructive" play a big role in public opinion on either side. As to the following such views garner - there's that, and there are others. But faced with a mass breaching of the fence threat, seems many will put immediate security first, other considerations later. Use of such symbols does nothing to but enhance this sentiment.

 

I'm not making the case that the IDF actions are "proportional" (which is a dubious, loaded term anyway - notice how there ain't much by way of a detailed take on what realistic alternative would be "proportional"?). And I concur that it does not "assist" Israeli society much. That you don't care about photos posted is regrettable. Same goes for you (and others) ignoring the protests and protestors not uniform in action or purpose. 

 

That said, yet to understand how, exactly, is this to be handled. Let protestors breach the fence, and have an almost assured bloodbath? Carry the risk of Hamas/Islamic Jihad using the opportunity for a high profile attack under cover of the protests?