UK military research boss says unable to say yet whether nerve agent was made in Russia - Sky

[webfact]

UK military research boss says unable to say yet whether nerve agent was made in Russia - Sky

 

Police officers guard the cordoned off area around the home of former Russian intelligence officer Sergei Skripal in Salisbury, Britain, April 3, 2018. REUTERS/Hannah McKay

 

LONDON (Reuters) - The head of Britain's military research centre said on Tuesday it was unable yet to say whether the military-grade nerve agent that poisoned a Russian double-agent last month had been produced in Russia.

 

"We were able to identify it as Novichok, to identify that it was military-grade nerve agent," Gary Aitkenhead, chief executive of the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down in England, told Sky News.

 

"We have not identified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific info to government who have then used a number of other sources to piece together the conclusions you have come to."

 

However, he confirmed the substance required "extremely sophisticated methods to create, something only in the capabilities of a state actor".

 

He added: "we are continuing to work to help to provide additional information that might help us get closer to [the source] but we haven't yet been able to do that."

 

Moscow has denied being behind the attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter in the southern English city of Salisbury on March 4.

 

After the first known use of a military-grade nerve agent on European soil since World War Two, Britain blamed Russian President Vladimir Putin for the attempted murder, and the West has expelled around 130 Russian diplomats.

 

Armin Laschet, a conservative ally of German Chancellor Angela Merkel, said the comment raised questions about Britain's drive to persuade allies to expel Russian diplomats.

 

"If one forces nearly all NATO countries into solidarity, shouldn't one have certain evidence? Regardless of what one thinks about Russia, my study of international law taught me a different way to deal with other states," Laschet, premier of the state of North Rhine-Westphlia, said on Twitter.

 

Aitkenhead said the British government had "other inputs" it could use to determine the origin of the nerve agent, some of them intelligence-based.

 

He reiterated that the substance could not have come from Porton Down.

 

Russia's EU ambassador Vladimir Chizhov noted in an interview with the BBC last month that the British research lab is only eight miles (11 km) from Salisbury, insinuating that may have been the source.

 

A government spokesperson said on Tuesday: "We have been clear from the very beginning that our world leading experts at Porton Down identified the substance used in Salisbury as a Novichok, a military grade nerve agent.

 

"This is only one part of the intelligence picture. As the Prime Minister (Theresa May) has set out ... this includes our knowledge that within the last decade, Russia has investigated ways of delivering nerve agents probably for assassination – and as part of this programme has produced and stockpiled small quantities of Novichoks; Russia’s record of conducting state-sponsored assassinations; and our assessment that Russia views former intelligence officers as targets."

 

Skripal's daughter Yulia is getting better after spending three weeks in critical condition due to the nerve toxin attack at her father's home in Salisbury, the hospital where she is being treated said last Thursday.

 

Her father remained in a critical but stable condition.

 

(Reporting by Andy Bruce; editing by Stephen Addison and Richard Balmforth)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-04-04

[malagateddy]

Tinker..tailor..soldier..spy..??

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Rally123]

26 minutes ago, webfact said:

Russia has investigated ways of delivering nerve agents probably for assassination – and as part of this programme has produced and stockpiled small quantities of Novichoks

The above is speculation. The US obtained Russian nerve agents when it won the contract to clean up the testing site in Uzbekistan in 1999. 

 

Quote

Igor Sutyagin, who spent time in a Russian labour camp with Skripal and was part of the 2010 spy swap which freed them both, told The Guardian“this is the worse [sic] possible time” and questioned any Kremlin involvement.

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Rally123

[grumbleweed]

I wonder who would have such an axe to grind with Russia that they would set them up in this way.

 

After all it's not as if they've meddled in any foreign elections, or stand in the way of preventing fuel pipelines being laid across Syria from a despotic state, that coincidentally buys weapons from the west and has recently been blowing kisses to their sworn enemy Israel,  to Europe,

 

A pipeline which, by the way, would tank the Russian economy

[nausea]

5 minutes ago, grumbleweed said:

wonder who would have such an axe to grind with Russia that they would set them up in this way.

I think the Black Ops option needs at least to be considered. It seems pretty incredible Russia would have the nerve to mount such a blatantly obvious operation, with all the obvious downside. If they did they made a huge miscalculation. On the other hand, it seems even more incredible that anyone would mount such a risky black op. I just hope the perpetrators made some kind of mistake and we get concrete evidence. The problem would come, of course, if that evidence didn't suit the supposed Russian bogeyman narrative.  One can see that there must be a great temptation not to investigate potentially embarrassing lines of enquiry or even suppress evidence. This announcement, although not particularly helpful in solving the case, is in a way encouraging. It indicates that the investigation is being conducted in an unbiased manner.

[evadgib]

Dstl's remit was to identify the substance. Placing Col Mustard in the study with the lead pipe is the responsibility of the intelligence services which has been sidestepped publicly but must have happened or there wouldn't have been any expulsions. 

[Topdoc]

Ladies and gentlemen, here is the evidence pointing to Russian state complicity (loud applause please)

 

[Krataiboy]

Act in haste. . . 

[BuaBS]

After this trial run , Assange would do well taping his windows at the embassy airtight . He could be next.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, BuaBS said:

After this trial run , Assange would do well taping his windows at the embassy airtight . He could be next.

 

BS.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, nausea said:

I think the Black Ops option needs at least to be considered. It seems pretty incredible Russia would have the nerve to mount such a blatantly obvious operation, with all the obvious downside. If they did they made a huge miscalculation. On the other hand, it seems even more incredible that anyone would mount such a risky black op. I just hope the perpetrators made some kind of mistake and we get concrete evidence. The problem would come, of course, if that evidence didn't suit the supposed Russian bogeyman narrative.  One can see that there must be a great temptation not to investigate potentially embarrassing lines of enquiry or even suppress evidence. This announcement, although not particularly helpful in solving the case, is in a way encouraging. It indicates that the investigation is being conducted in an unbiased manner.

 

I don't see how the statement gives credence to "Black Ops" theorizing. Guess those hasty to see it as such skip over the part where it relates government relies (or may rely) on other sources of information.

 

Considering Russia already carried out such operations, why assume they wouldn't have another go? Whether they blundered or miscalculated is another matter, but such things do happen. No intelligence service is perfect. I'm sure that there was risk analysis done, and in real terms,

 

Downsides? So far it is mostly diplomatic tit-for-tat. Doubt it hurts Putin on the home front. And on the other hand, as these topics show, goes a way to sow doubts, create divisions, and spread mistrust. The diplomatic miscalculation, if there was one, lies with failing to predict other Western governments support for the UK. In terms of public opinion,

 

Saying that "the problem would come, of course, if that evidence didn't suit the supposed Russian bogeyman narrative" seems to indicate begging the question, arriving at foregone conclusions. The same can be applied to them responses denying Russian involvement.

 

But as is often the case in such investigations, unlikely that all details will be made public. So those wishing to believe conspiracy is afoot, will be able to hold on to that no matter what. That while ignoring the fact that this pattern of not divulging information to the general public holds true for Russia as well, and even more so. In as much as the call for "concrete evidence" presented publicly, is an expectation of full public disclosure - it is bogus.

 

[rockingrobin]

46 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't see how the statement gives credence to "Black Ops" theorizing. Guess those hasty to see it as such skip over the part where it relates government relies (or may rely) on other sources of information.

 

Considering Russia already carried out such operations, why assume they wouldn't have another go? Whether they blundered or miscalculated is another matter, but such things do happen. No intelligence service is perfect. I'm sure that there was risk analysis done, and in real terms,

 

Downsides? So far it is mostly diplomatic tit-for-tat. Doubt it hurts Putin on the home front. And on the other hand, as these topics show, goes a way to sow doubts, create divisions, and spread mistrust. The diplomatic miscalculation, if there was one, lies with failing to predict other Western governments support for the UK. In terms of public opinion,

 

Saying that "the problem would come, of course, if that evidence didn't suit the supposed Russian bogeyman narrative" seems to indicate begging the question, arriving at foregone conclusions. The same can be applied to them responses denying Russian involvement.

 

But as is often the case in such investigations, unlikely that all details will be made public. So those wishing to believe conspiracy is afoot, will be able to hold on to that no matter what. That while ignoring the fact that this pattern of not divulging information to the general public holds true for Russia as well, and even more so. In as much as the call for "concrete evidence" presented publicly, is an expectation of full public disclosure - it is bogus.

 

Are we to believe the British incapable of deception

[Morch]

1 minute ago, rockingrobin said:

Are we to believe the British incapable of deception

 

No such claim included in my post(s). Better luck next time.

[Odysseus123]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No such claim included in my post(s). Better luck next time.

Well,of course..

 

One day these people will iinvade Tasmania again.

 

With a Navy that could not sink a canoe..

 

An Army that approximates to a battalion-less the Scots and the Irish..

 

And an Air Force which argues that the Sopwith "pup" is not equal to the "camel"

 

Nothing for it but to shave their heads and get another tattoo...

 

The ugliest hominids in all of creation.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Odysseus123

[Chomper Higgot]

It might be worth asking a few of the former KGB agents now hiding from Putin in the UK if they believe that attack was by Russia.

 

They have a first hand knowledge of the methods of the Russian security forces and a lot more skin in the game than the barstool pundits on TVF.

[janclaes47]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

The head of Britain's military research centre said on Tuesday it was unable yet to say whether the military-grade nerve agent that poisoned a Russian double-agent last month had been produced in Russia.

 

He should ask TV members , there are quite a few that know everything about it.

[Khun Han]

Boris Johnson now has to resign, after his categoric claim that Porton Down told him the novichok was Russian-made.

 

Two things have been confirmed in the op interview though: the novichok was military grade, and no antidotes were administered.

[Basil B]

4 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

Act in haste. . . 

Should have done more years ago. after Markov.

 

I get the impression this maybe down to intelligence, good old spying, Russia wants to find out what our intelligence sources are.

 

Remember America decoded Japans declaration of war along time before the Japanese embassy staff did, but obviously never told them so.

 

Also information obtained by Bletchley Park during WW2 was code named ultra and no information was used without ensuring that the Germans would believe it came from other sources.

Quote

Ultra was the designation adopted by British military intelligence in June 1941 for wartime signals intelligence obtained by breaking high-level encrypted enemy radio and teleprinter communications at the Government Code and Cypher School (GC&CS) at Bletchley Park. Ultra eventually became the standard designation among the western Allies for all such intelligence. The name arose because the intelligence thus obtained was considered more important than that designated by the highest British security classification then used (Most Secret) and so was regarded as being Ultra secret. Several other cryptonyms had been used for such intelligence.

The code name Boniface was used as a cover name for Ultra. In order to ensure that the successful code-breaking did not become apparent to the Germans, British intelligence created a fictional MI6 master spy, Boniface, who controlled a fictional series of agents throughout Germany. Information obtained through code-breaking was often attributed to the human intelligence from the Boniface network. The U.S. used the codename Magic for its decrypts from Japanese sources including the so-called "Purple" cipher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra

[Basil B]

9 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

Boris Johnson now has to resign, after his categoric claim that Porton Down told him the novichok was Russian-made.

 

Two things have been confirmed in the op interview though: the novichok was military grade, and no antidotes were administered.

Can you please quote Boris's exact words, I certainly would like to see the back of that clown but it is important that he did say that before calling for his head.

[dunroaming]

9 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

Boris Johnson now has to resign, after his categoric claim that Porton Down told him the novichok was Russian-made.

 

Two things have been confirmed in the op interview though: the novichok was military grade, and no antidotes were administered.

Johnson should resign, for so many reasons, but of course he won't.

 

If I remember correctly it was the British government who pointed the finger at Russia, pretty much from day one.  Personally I think it probably was them but it was pretty stupid to make the claim openly without any back up evidence.  Unfortunately now the Russians can show their indignation and rub Johnson's nose in it!

[owl sees all]

1 hour ago, janclaes47 said:

He should ask TV members , there are quite a few that know everything about it.

He could do a lot worse. There are some very knowledgeable people on TVFourm. Some are privi' to secret info'.

 

Professor Pigeon, for instance, who's research is often quoted in top UK circles. And Rotherham Rob who almost found a cancer cure. I also met a Dutch Chess Grandmaster in Nong Khai.

[Khun Han]

10 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Can you please quote Boris's exact words, I certainly would like to see the back of that clown but it is important that he did say that before calling for his head.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/nerve-agent-attack-johnson-faces-questions-over-porton-down-claim-11315840

 

"It came two weeks after Mr Johnson gave an interview to the German broadcaster Deutsche Welle, and was asked why he believed the chemical came from Russia.

He said: "When I look at the evidence, I mean the people from Porton Down, the laboratory..."

Mr Johnson was asked if they had samples.

He said: "They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, 'Are you sure?' And he said, 'There's no doubt'.""

 

A video of the pertinent bit of the interview is at the top of the linked article.

[rockingrobin]

26 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Can you please quote Boris's exact words, I certainly would like to see the back of that clown but it is important that he did say that before calling for his head.

He was asked the question how does he know it was Russian BY DW

In his response he states that he had asked the guy at Porton Down , and that he categorically confirmed it

http://www.dw.com/en/boris-johnson-russias-position-in-skripal-case-is-increasingly-bizarre/av-43125839

 

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by rockingrobin

[owl sees all]

At a top-people dinner party last month, a top UK scientist was overheard saying, and I quote "We are going to recruit a couple of footballers for spying during the world cup". When pressed on this he replied. "Couldn't possibly divulge that sort of secret stuff; but maybe a goaltender."

 

So there we have it! All will be revealed on "Match Of The Day' later this year. You heard it here first folks!! 

 

What's the date? Oh shit; must get up to speed!

[Grouse]

15 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

https://news.sky.com/story/nerve-agent-attack-johnson-faces-questions-over-porton-down-claim-11315840

 

"It came two weeks after Mr Johnson gave an interview to the German broadcaster Deutsche Welle, and was asked why he believed the chemical came from Russia.

He said: "When I look at the evidence, I mean the people from Porton Down, the laboratory..."

Mr Johnson was asked if they had samples.

He said: "They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, 'Are you sure?' And he said, 'There's no doubt'.""

 

A video of the pertinent bit of the interview is at the top of the linked article.

Yes, just been on BBC Radio 4.

 

Boris is toast

[Odysseus123]

7 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

At a top-people dinner party last month, a top UK scientist was overheard saying, and I quote "We are going to recruit a couple of footballers for spying during the world cup". When pressed on this he replied. "Couldn't possibly divulge that sort of secret stuff; but maybe a goaltender."

 

So there we have it! All will be revealed on "Match Of The Day' later this year. You heard it here first folks!! 

 

What's the date? Oh shit; must get up to speed!

Oh,,ha ha..

 

Yes,I personally heard it from the chap who ran Bletchley Park until he retired and opened up a bicycle repair shop.

 

This is appalling.

[dunroaming]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, just been on BBC Radio 4.

 

Boris is toast

Wishful thinking and I really hope you are correct.

[Chomper Higgot]

I'm not sure what the basis is of claims of Russia being 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

 

Yes, I understand this is a core principal of civil law in the UK, US and many other places, I also understand the right to innocence until proven guilty is enshrined in the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. (Russia incidentally abstained on the vote for the adoption of the UNDoHR!

 

But these are citizen and human rights, I don't know of any legal recognition of a presumption of innocence for a  government or nation.

 

I note that companies/corporations can claim some citizen rights in US and UK law, but these are not 'specific to any UN Human Rights to a presumption of innocence' and in any case this recognition of companies/corporations has having 'citizen' rights is not widely recognised outside of the US and UK legal systems.

 

So, over to those who make the argument that Russia is innocent unless proven guilty - On what basis do you make this claim (reference to law rather than some fuzzy gut feeling).

Edited April 4, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[dunroaming]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I'm not sure what the basis is of claims of Russia being 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

 

Yes, I understand this is a core principal of civil law in the UK, US and many other places, I also understand the right to innocence until proven guilty is enshrined in the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. (Russia incidentally abstained on the vote for the adoption of the UNDoHR!

 

But these are citizen and human rights, I don't know of any legal recognition of a presumption of innocence for a  government or nation.

 

I note that companies/corporations can claim some citizen rights in US and UK law, but these are not 'specific to any UN Human Rights to a presumption of innocence' and in any case this recognition of companies/corporations has having 'citizen' rights is not widely recognised outside of the US and UK legal systems.

 

So, over to those who make the argument that Russia is innocent unless proven guilty - On what basis do you make this claim (reference to law rather than some fuzzy gut feeling).

All valid.  The difficulty here is if it was carried out by an individual, even with government (or an individual in the government) backing then you have to establish a line of responsibility.  To blame a country over something that is not an act of war is complicated.  The nerve agent may well have been military grade but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a military operation.  It seems too cack handed for that.  Or was that the intention?  At the moment all we have is questions.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

All valid.  The difficulty here is if it was carried out by an individual, even with government (or an individual in the government) backing then you have to establish a line of responsibility.  To blame a country over something that is not an act of war is complicated.  The nerve agent may well have been military grade but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a military operation.  It seems too cack handed for that.  Or was that the intention?  At the moment all we have is questions.

Perhaps the intention was to get you questioning the British government.

 

It's obvious I know, but worth restating. 

 

Russia is a state with the full state apparatus and the sovereign right to withhold information or indeed individuals from any criminal investigation. 

 

The UK government meanwhile has a duty protect the citizens of the UK, I expect, though I do not claim it a fact, we would most of us prefer our government to act on the best information and put the lives of British citizens above the sensibilities of foreign governments. 

 

Or shall we just dance to the tune of a foreign government that we know for a fact has enshrined assassination in other nation's territories into its own law.