UK military research boss says unable to say yet whether nerve agent was made in Russia - Sky

[Khun Han]

Bojo will be saved by three things:

 

1) Parliament is in recess.

2) The government can't be seen to back down in any way, shape or form over this spat.

3) He has no shame.

[dunroaming]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Perhaps the intention was to get you questioning the British government.

 

It's obvious I know, but worth restating. 

 

Russia is a state with the full state apparatus and the sovereign right to withhold information or indeed individuals from any criminal investigation. 

 

The UK government meanwhile has a duty protect the citizens of the UK, I expect, though I do not claim it a fact, we would most of us prefer our government to act on the best information and put the lives of British citizens above the sensibilities of foreign governments. 

 

Or shall we just dance to the tune of a foreign government that we know for a fact has enshrined assassination in other nation's territories into its own law.

I agree with that analysis and as I said I think that Russia is probably behind the attack.  I have no intention to defend Russia and I believe they are a very dangerous presence in the world at the moment.  But there must be evidence to back up the accusations if the government continues to point the finger directly at Russia and more to the point Putin personally.

[Grouse]

The most important word from Porton Down is "yet"

 

As previously stated, no chemical process is 100% perfect. The sample will also contain precursors, catalysts and solvent residues. These form a "foot print" which can help identify a production plant or even a batch.

 

If UK is successful, Russia will have to provide access and samples

 

Could get interesting....

 

(well, for gas liquid chromatography fans ? - these things detect and quantify down to the nanogram level!!)

Edited April 4, 2018 by Grouse

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

The most important word from Porton Down is "yet"

 

As previously stated, no chemical process is 100% perfect. The sample will also contain precursors, catalysts and solvent residues. These form s foot print which can help identify a plant or even a batch.

 

If UK is successful, Russia will have to provide access and samples

 

Could get interesting....

I don't think so.

 

It is perfectly apparent that you can produce it anywhere.

 

Be on the look out for whistle blowers who are found  dead in ditches.

 

Back to the utterly appalling Brit gov't and their confederacy of dunces.

[joecoolfrog]

Too many of you have been watching spy movies !

It may be boring , but for every proven conspiracy theory there are a thousand cases where the obvious culprit was found to be guilty.

Putin has done very well out of this affair , the country whipped into a media driven Nationalist frenzy is more supportive of him than ever !

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

I don't think so.

 

It is perfectly apparent that you can produce it anywhere.

 

Be on the look out for whistle blowers who are found  dead in ditches.

 

Back to the utterly appalling Brit gov't and their confederacy of dunces.

Take it from me; making this is no trivial matter. It's not like bomb making. NP hard actually.

 

Much more difficult than VX , I doubt Syria or Iraq could do it.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Grouse

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Take it from me; making this is no trivial matter. It's not like bomb making. NP hard actually.

Well..nothing is a trivial matter.

 

Once upon a time there was this archduke and he travelled to Sarajevo....

 

In short,what fuse is going to set the next powder keg off..?

 

I hope that it is not the well worn 2003 fuse.

 

Mind you,it does get everybody's minds off Brexit-that Carrollian mishmash of utter absurdities.

[citybiker]

I don't think so.
 
It is perfectly apparent that you can produce it anywhere.
 
Be on the look out for whistle blowers who are found  dead in ditches.
 
Back to the utterly appalling Brit gov't and their confederacy of dunces.

Apparent that a ‘nerve agent’ can be produced anywhere....

I think your getting confused with home made cannabis farms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ChidlomDweller]

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/long-read-does-the-uks-case-against-russia-stack-up

 

Not a bad article.  After the long part about the chemistry (a complex task to prove Moscow produce it) the article mentions that there is likely to be other evidence and factors.  Don't assume that the public has all available evidence.  The fact many other governments have expelled Russian diplomats tells me there's pretty credible evidence.  

 

The government’s case against Russia is multi-faceted; chemistry is only one part.

Authorities will have also considered a wide range of other intelligence sources. Who was in Salisbury on the day? What does the CCTV show? Who were Skripal’s enemies? And what information have the secret services managed to obtain?

At the moment, we simply do not know the extent or strength of the evidence. But this information may potentially be enough to incriminate Russia, regardless of the Novichok chemistry.

In statements on the affair, Theresa May has also factored in Russia’s “record of conducting state sponsored assassinations – including against former intelligence officers”.

Among the high profile deaths which have been linked to the Kremlin are former FSB agent Alexander Litvinenko and Putin critic Boris Berezovsky. So the Salisbury attack fits a pattern.

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, ChidlomDweller said:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/long-read-does-the-uks-case-against-russia-stack-up

 

Not a bad article.  After the long part about the chemistry (a complex task to prove Moscow produce it) the article mentions that there is likely to be other evidence and factors.  Don't assume that the public has all available evidence.  The fact many other governments have expelled Russian diplomats tells me there's pretty credible evidence.  

 

The government’s case against Russia is multi-faceted; chemistry is only one part.

Authorities will have also considered a wide range of other intelligence sources. Who was in Salisbury on the day? What does the CCTV show? Who were Skripal’s enemies? And what information have the secret services managed to obtain?

At the moment, we simply do not know the extent or strength of the evidence. But this information may potentially be enough to incriminate Russia, regardless of the Novichok chemistry.

In statements on the affair, Theresa May has also factored in Russia’s “record of conducting state sponsored assassinations – including against former intelligence officers”.

Among the high profile deaths which have been linked to the Kremlin are former FSB agent Alexander Litvinenko and Putin critic Boris Berezovsky. So the Salisbury attack fits a pattern.

I suggest that you get your leaky aircraft carriers up and going first.

 

Oh..and don't forget the non existent air wing.

[Morch]

Just now, Odysseus123 said:

I suggest that you get your leaky aircraft carriers up and going first.

 

Oh..and don't forget the non existent air wing.

 

And this got to do with the topic...how?

[owl sees all]

4 hours ago, Odysseus123 said:

Yes,I personally heard it from the chap who ran Bletchley Park until he retired and opened up a bicycle repair shop.

Just goes to show Ody. As I have said, there are some clever people here in Thailand. Some are in the shadows just watching and waiting.

Edited April 4, 2018 by owl sees all

[Dumbastheycome]

7 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Just goes to show Ody. As I have said, there are some cleaver people here in Thailand. Some are in the shadows just watching and waiting.

Wid  dem  cleavers?  OMG !

 

[Odysseus123]

11 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Just goes to show Ody. As I have said, there are some cleaver people here in Thailand. Some are in the shadows just watching and waiting.

Ah...just having a bit of fun wise old owl.

 

And,yes,they have forgotten the air wing,

[Grouse]

21 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Apparent that a ‘nerve agent’ can be produced anywhere....

I think your getting confused with home made cannabis farms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I doubt you know what you're talking about. Convince me otherwise I will just not respond ?

[owl sees all]

1 hour ago, citybiker said:

Apparent that a ‘nerve agent’ can be produced anywhere.

Quite right citybiker. Just have to have a bit of know-how, the formula and ingredients. I've heard the whole kabang is on the internet somewhere.

 

As for delivery; just put it in a plastic bag (like the one in Thailand which holds soup) and lob it at your victim. Hold your nose as you chuck it.

 

1 hour ago, citybiker said:

I think your getting confused with home made cannabis farms.

Difficult to grow a decent bit of weed. Don't do it myself but I know,,,,,,,,,,,,,,....

Edited April 4, 2018 by owl sees all

[Grouse]

36 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/long-read-does-the-uks-case-against-russia-stack-up

 

Not a bad article.  After the long part about the chemistry (a complex task to prove Moscow produce it) the article mentions that there is likely to be other evidence and factors.  Don't assume that the public has all available evidence.  The fact many other governments have expelled Russian diplomats tells me there's pretty credible evidence.  

 

The government’s case against Russia is multi-faceted; chemistry is only one part.

Authorities will have also considered a wide range of other intelligence sources. Who was in Salisbury on the day? What does the CCTV show? Who were Skripal’s enemies? And what information have the secret services managed to obtain?

At the moment, we simply do not know the extent or strength of the evidence. But this information may potentially be enough to incriminate Russia, regardless of the Novichok chemistry.

In statements on the affair, Theresa May has also factored in Russia’s “record of conducting state sponsored assassinations – including against former intelligence officers”.

Among the high profile deaths which have been linked to the Kremlin are former FSB agent Alexander Litvinenko and Putin critic Boris Berezovsky. So the Salisbury attack fits a pattern.

First class piece. I mentioned looking for isomer proportions together with precursors and solvent. I did not know these Novichoks form chirals!

 

As suggested, using a gas chromatograph with a mass spectrometer sensor will get you down to 0.000,000,001g.

 

They can run but they can't hide. The truth WILL out!

Edited April 4, 2018 by Grouse

[Odysseus123]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

First class piece. I mention looking for isomer proportions I did not know these form chiral!

 

As suggested, using a gas chromatohraph with a mass spectrometer sensor will get you down to 0.000,000,001g.

 

They can run but they can't hide. The truth WILL out!

Yeah?

 

Well it's taking some time..perhaps we will be chucking rocks at each other when that happy day arrives.

[owl sees all]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

They can run but they can't hide.

Wasn't that line in a Hollywood movie? Rambo or John Wayne or Arnie! Don't think it was a nerve agent thing though. 

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Yeah?

 

Well it's taking some time..perhaps we will be chucking rocks at each other when that happy day arrives.

I had better explain

 

1) Porton analyses the samples they have not to identify the nerve agent but to quantify the precursors, catalysts, solvents. Chirals and isomers. This gives the foot print

 

2) Get UN to order Russia to provide access. They have to agree because of the treaties signed

 

3) Collect samples from storage and examine plant

 

4) Compare

 

5) up to you

[ChidlomDweller]

35 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Just have to have a bit of know-how, the formula and ingredients. I've heard the whole kabang is on the internet somewhere.

Read the fact-check I linked to in my previous post.  The poison is so lethal you need a large state of the art lab and some real expertise.  For the same reason it's believed the poison was imported from abroad.  It's not something you could easily produce in the UK and stay under the radar.

 

 

Lab facilities

“To make this, you need the chemical knowledge, the ingredients and the facilities,” says Jerry Smith.

“Those three things have got to hit a sweet spot, in a classic Venn diagram. And that sweet spot is probably very small… You also have to make sure you don’t kill yourself in the process.”

Dr Cragg said: “You would absolutely require a high-tech lab to prepare the binary agents. They are likely to need specialist equipment such as fume hoods and inert atmosphere facilities so the highly toxic agents could be manipulated without being released into the open lab.”

This enormous risk factor is probably the single biggest indication that the Salisbury nerve agent was produced at an advanced chemical lab, rather than being knocked up in a back room nearby. That means, if a foreign country is responsible, it was almost certainly smuggled into the UK.

“I would struggle to see a situation where Russia produced Novichoks in Britain,” says Smith.

Professor Sella explains: “There is no chemistry that one cannot conceive of doing in a back room, if you have the right sort of kit.” But he adds: “I honestly think the risks are just too high to do this somewhere in a back yard or a shed. The toxicity levels are extreme.”

Edited April 4, 2018 by ChidlomDweller

[Odysseus123]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I had better explain

 

1) Porton analyses the samples they have not to identify the nerve agent but to quantify the precursors, catalysts, solvents. Chirals and isomers. This gives the foot print

 

2) Get UN to order Russia to provide access. They have to agree because of the treaties signed

 

3) Collect samples from storage and examine plant

 

4) Compare

 

5) up to you

I am not disagreeing that the nerve agent may or may not have been created and administered by the Russkis.

 

I am merely commenting that they have jumped the gun-hence my remarks about non-existent air wings.

 

In times of yore the assassination of a couple of agents-whether Mr Pork or Mr Pie or,-or that matter-Mr Boris or Mr Spassky would have been settled by a few stiff diplomatic notes.

 

I deplore Twitter demagogues posing as politicians.They will get us ALL killed one day.

[owl sees all]

1 hour ago, ChidlomDweller said:

The poison is so lethal you need a large state of the art lab and some real expertise.  For the same reason it's believed the poison was imported from abroad.  It's not something you could easily produce in the UK and stay under the radar.

I reckon you have a point here CD. In citybiker's post #38 he did not say it was this specific one; just an ordinary nerve agent.

 

Your post is making me rethink this nerve agent stuff. Perhaps it's more dangerous than I think.

 

As for just chucking at a victim; sounds impossible now I read further.

Edited April 4, 2018 by owl sees all

[janclaes47]

31 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

Read the fact-check I linked to in my previous post.  The poison is so lethal you need a large state of the art lab and some real expertise.  For the same reason it's believed the poison was imported from abroad.  It's not something you could easily produce in the UK and stay under the radar.

 

Unless it was produced in the state of the art lab of porton down nearby

 

 

 

[rockingrobin]

48 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

Read the fact-check I linked to in my previous post.  The poison is so lethal you need a large state of the art lab and some real expertise.  For the same reason it's believed the poison was imported from abroad.  It's not something you could easily produce in the UK and stay under the radar.

 

 

Lab facilities

“To make this, you need the chemical knowledge, the ingredients and the facilities,” says Jerry Smith.

“Those three things have got to hit a sweet spot, in a classic Venn diagram. And that sweet spot is probably very small… You also have to make sure you don’t kill yourself in the process.”

Dr Cragg said: “You would absolutely require a high-tech lab to prepare the binary agents. They are likely to need specialist equipment such as fume hoods and inert atmosphere facilities so the highly toxic agents could be manipulated without being released into the open lab.”

This enormous risk factor is probably the single biggest indication that the Salisbury nerve agent was produced at an advanced chemical lab, rather than being knocked up in a back room nearby. That means, if a foreign country is responsible, it was almost certainly smuggled into the UK.

“I would struggle to see a situation where Russia produced Novichoks in Britain,” says Smith.

Professor Sella explains: “There is no chemistry that one cannot conceive of doing in a back room, if you have the right sort of kit.” But he adds: “I honestly think the risks are just too high to do this somewhere in a back yard or a shed. The toxicity levels are extreme.”

The toxicity is the issue . It is still unknown where the Skripals where poisoned. It is also reported that in excess of 20 persons became contaminated , but all appear to have recovered.

[ChidlomDweller]

46 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

 

Unless it was produced in the state of the art lab of porton down nearby

 

 

 

Here's 19 other reasons to sow confusion and deflect with:

 

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/figure-of-the-week-20/

[ChouDoufu]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Take it from me; making this is no trivial matter. It's not like bomb making. NP hard actually.

 

Much more difficult than VX , I doubt Syria or Iraq could do it.

iran did it a couple years ago.  working with opcw, iran sythesized five variants, added the results to the opcw database.

 

Iranian chemists identify Russian chemical warfare agents  (Jan 1, 2017)

http://www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ezine/1591ca249b2/Iranian-chemists-identify-Russian-chemical-warfare-agents.html

 

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

iran did it a couple years ago.  working with opcw, iran sythesized five variants, added the results to the opcw database.

 

Iranian chemists identify Russian chemical warfare agents  (Jan 1, 2017)

http://www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ezine/1591ca249b2/Iranian-chemists-identify-Russian-chemical-warfare-agents.html

 

 

And the point is?

[Grouse]

The highest concentration of the nerve agent was found on the victims' front door knob.

 

The point that I was trying to make earlier was that this class of molecule is difficult but not impossible to synthesise. It's way beyond Breaking Bad though that show does illustrate multistage chemical processes and the precursors required. It also nicely illustrates the "foot print" issue - so we're looking for a blue version of crystal meth (nerve agent)

 

In this case, identifying the key elements of the foot print will be difficult and time consuming. An order of magnitude more difficult than producing the stuff.

 

They will get there....

[Grouse]

Corbyn is being a crafty bastard as well. On BBC World he said Porton Down COULD'NT identify where the nerve agent originated. Porton Down stated that the had identified the agent but had not YET identified where it had come from. 

 

I'm getting tired of some these people; anyone got any Novichok on them? ?