Thailand Stuns Drug Firms With Generic Licenses

[aqua4]

victim of a lifestyle disease

Clear the emotion as you cannot think straight when debating irresponsibility. Africans do not believe in the use of condoms, it is against their culture. They view condoms as a being a part of colonialism. Migrant labor, second and third wives, truck stop sex. What do you expect? Am I suppose to feel sorry because some man in the middle of Africa did not consider his children before he decided where to drain his snake?

It comes to INDIVIDUAL and GOVERNMENTS responsibility not corporate responsibility!

[Mid]

victim of a lifestyle disease

Clear the emotion as you cannot think straight when debating irresponsibility. Africans do not believe in the use of condoms, it is against their culture. They view condoms as a being a part of colonialism. Migrant labor, second and third wives, truck stop sex. What do you expect? Am I suppose to feel sorry because some man in the middle of Africa did not consider his children before he decided where to drain his snake?

It comes to INDIVIDUAL and GOVERNMENTS responsibility not corporate responsibility!

one time only ,

it effects us all , longer we wait , argue about who does what ............

worse it's going to be

[aqua4]

one time only ,

it effects us all , longer we wait , argue about who does what ............

worse it's going to be

There is never a one time only. Look at how many drugs are copied in India as an example. We are doing nothing more than killing ourselves. For each drug that gets copied, we as humans loose. Drugs companies will not invest in R&D if they cannot turn a profit. It is capitalism unless we all want to move to North Korea. Look at the huge amount of sub standard generic drugs the US and EU are trying to keep out of their countries. The exact same morons who manufacture and profit from that substandard drugs create even far worst problems by creating super viruses. Who gets to research and cure the super virus? Ping Pong Drugs Inc? They could not give a hoot! Just take a look at how XDR-TB has spread in Africa.

I don't think there will be a cure for AIDS in my lifetime. It is something I have to think about if I ever wish to drain my snake in a snake pit. I am responsible to my family. I am responsible to my children. IF I fail in MY responsibility, I have no one else to blame but myself.

[jetjock]

This topic is currently one of the most complex issues that faces the health care industry all over the world and unfortunately their is no easy solution. I do not have an opinion whether Thailand made the correct decision regarding the aids drugs however I do believe that if all countries decided to do what Thailand is doing, it would quickly diminish the amount of money that drug companies would invest in aids research. I am attaching an excerpt from the Istituto Bruno Leon, an Italian 'think tank' ( I realize 'Italian' and 'think tank' could be an oxymoron ) , regarding this subject. I do think it is an excellent article outlining the problems and giving some food for thought.

"Innovation entails enormous costs. In 2001 alone, the pharmaceutical industry spent $30.5 billion on research, with average development costs for a single drug reaching $802 million. Our hopes to cure AIDS depend on the effectiveness of research.

The profit motive, moreover, is at the heart of the structure of incentives that brings companies to invest in research and innovation. Far from being “genocidal,” profit is what loads the spring of economic growth, and is the immediate motive behind the right of economic initiative that, as the pope has written, is indissolubly linked with human creativity. “In today's world,” John Paul wrote in Sollicitudo Rei Socialis, “among other rights, the right of economic initiative is often suppressed. Yet it is a right which is important not only for the individual but also for the common good. Experience shows us that the denial of this right, or its limitation in the name of an alleged ‘equality’ of everyone in society, diminishes, or in practice absolutely destroys the spirit of initiative, that is to say the creative subjectivity of the citizen.”

In addition, critics should look at actors other than profit-seeking companies in assessing blame for high drug prices. Government protectionism and fiscal voracity contribute to limiting access to treatment. For example, the government of South Africa (which has recently slashed its AIDS budget by two-thirds) continues to impose a 14 percent value-added tax (VAT) on all medicines, including AIDS medicines, increasing the cost of those drugs significantly. Argentina levies a 17 percent VAT on medicines. Ghana and Senegal impose 10 percent customs on imported medicines, as does Tanzania.

Pushing pharmaceuticals to lower drug prices for the needy by means of persuasion is certainly legitimate. But we shouldn’t derogate the value of what such companies already do, nor forget the economic realities of the industry. Undermining the right of economic initiative will do nothing to promote the common good, in Africa or anywhere else."

[jdinasia]

Oh please!

The big boys in the Pharmacueticals industries are not looking at Thailand (or Africa or .... ad nauseuem) as a potential market when they price meds where the yearly cost is more than the yearly income of a patient.

As long as they can soak patients and insurance companies in the West and not have their patents broken there, they will do all the R&D you can want.

There will be no repurcussions to this. There haven't been in other places either.

[aqua4]

The big boys in the Pharmacueticals industries are not looking at Thailand (or Africa or .... ad nauseuem) as a potential market when they price meds where the yearly cost is more than the yearly income of a patient.

This might surprise you then, but they do look at the global market including Asia and Africa. These are the problematic markets. It is when these market cannot get with the program that they create cheap generics for the market. Those exact substandard generics end up flooding the lucrative Western market. It dilutes profit and creates super viruses.

This was in 2000:

This week South Africa's Treatment Action Committee (TAC), the major HIV treatment activist group in the country, defied patent laws by importing generic fluconazole from Thailand, where TAG purchased it more than 50 times cheaper than the South African retail price, according to news reports in the country.

The internet - generic medicines go beyond borders.

Edited January 26, 2007 by aqua4

[jdinasia]

The big boys in the Pharmacueticals industries are not looking at Thailand (or Africa or .... ad nauseuem) as a potential market when they price meds where the yearly cost is more than the yearly income of a patient.

This might surprise you then, but they do look at the global market including Asia and Africa. These are the problematic markets. It is when these market cannot get with the program that they create cheap generics for the market. Those exact substandard generics end up flooding the lucrative Western market. It dilutes profit and creates super viruses.

This was in 2000:

This week South Africa's Treatment Action Committee (TAC), the major HIV treatment activist group in the country, defied patent laws by importing generic fluconazole from Thailand, where TAG purchased it more than 50 times cheaper than the South African retail price, according to news reports in the country.

The internet - generic medicines go beyond borders.

and in 2000 they were FAR late in doing so ... BUT the medication was legal here (for sale anywhere in 2000). What did this accomplish? It broke the backs of the South African company that had the same generic license! and people got treatment .. it did NOT affect the big boys at all!

[jetjock]

On a more positive note-just think what inexpensive Aids drugs compared to the rest of the world will do to boost medical tourism to Thailand.

[ColPyat]

But in case of AIDS the WTO law is applied correctly. AIDS is contagious, has reached national emergency proportions, and supply of necessary, life saving medicine is threatened.

Are you joking? AIDS is a lifestyle disease not a contagious disease per se. It appears to be a national crises because governments have failed to implement preventative steps. They failed alternatively neglected to prevent its spread, so give us a free cure. What sort of mentality is that?

Bullshit.

The Thai governments, apart from a few initial hickups have been praised worldwide for its exemplary prevention, so that different than almost all countries of the region Thailand has been taken off the list of catastrophy countries.

Mr. Condom is only one highly publicised figure in the battle against AIDS, there were far more efforts done by private and governmental initiatives. Not the least important was the battle over the development of GPO-Vir, and the inclusion of GPO-Vir and AIDS treatment in the 30 baht scheme. That was possible because the dedication of a few individuals such as Dr. Krisana Kraisintu, and MSF Belgium, and many others.

Nevertheless, AIDS is still a national crises, given the high rate of infection. AIDS is not a lifestyle desease, but lets not argue about semantics. The assured death of between 500 000 to one million people mostly in their otherwise most productive age would be a more than heavy burden on society and country, and therefore it is a perfectl correct decision to apply the WTO regulation, that was includud for such reasons (and not for the US to apply during the anthrax panic, which the US did).

I do hope that other, more severe hit countries in the region, such as Cambodia, India, Burma, etc will take courage from the Thai decision to apply the same WTO law so they can one day provide anti-retrovirals for free to their population.

One of the biggest lies especially regarding anti-retrovirals and AIDS research is the development costs of those drugs. First of all, most was not financed by the pharma companies, but by universities through government funds, and pharma companies only financed clinical trials. Many patents do not even belong to the pharma companies, but the universities. But the pharma companies spend a lot of effort any money to prevent generic providers from finding out to whom these patents actually belong.

I am not gonna waste my time with you anymore to go into any more details. All this information is freely available if you make the effort to actually familiarize yourself with the problem. For you this may be just an armchair warrior issue, for me though it isn't.

Many people i love are infected, and do only survive because the existence of generic medicine. If it were for people like you, they would be dead. Fortunately though the world does not only consist of coldhearted uncompassionate animals like you.

[jdinasia]

But in case of AIDS the WTO law is applied correctly. AIDS is contagious, has reached national emergency proportions, and supply of necessary, life saving medicine is threatened.

Are you joking? AIDS is a lifestyle disease not a contagious disease per se. It appears to be a national crises because governments have failed to implement preventative steps. They failed alternatively neglected to prevent its spread, so give us a free cure. What sort of mentality is that?

Bullshit.

The Thai governments, apart from a few initial hickups have been praised worldwide for its exemplary prevention, so that different than almost all countries of the region Thailand has been taken off the list of catastrophy countries.

Mr. Condom is only one highly publicised figure in the battle against AIDS, there were far more efforts done by private and governmental initiatives. Not the least important was the battle over the development of GPO-Vir, and the inclusion of GPO-Vir and AIDS treatment in the 30 baht scheme. That was possible because the dedication of a few individuals such as Dr. Krisana Kraisintu, and MSF Belgium, and many others.

Nevertheless, AIDS is still a national crises, given the high rate of infection. AIDS is not a lifestyle desease, but lets not argue about semantics. The assured death of between 500 000 to one million people mostly in their otherwise most productive age would be a more than heavy burden on society and country, and therefore it is a perfectl correct decision to apply the WTO regulation, that was includud for such reasons (and not for the US to apply during the anthrax panic, which the US did).

I do hope that other, more severe hit countries in the region, such as Cambodia, India, Burma, etc will take courage from the Thai decision to apply the same WTO law so they can one day provide anti-retrovirals for free to their population.

One of the biggest lies especially regarding anti-retrovirals and AIDS research is the development costs of those drugs. First of all, most was not financed by the pharma companies, but by universities through government funds, and pharma companies only financed clinical trials. Many patents do not even belong to the pharma companies, but the universities. But the pharma companies spend a lot of effort any money to prevent generic providers from finding out to whom these patents actually belong.

I am not gonna waste my time with you anymore to go into any more details. All this information is freely available if you make the effort to actually familiarize yourself with the problem. For you this may be just an armchair warrior issue, for me though it isn't.

Many people i love are infected, and do only survive because the existence of generic medicine. If it were for people like you, they would be dead. Fortunately though the world does not only consist of coldhearted uncompassionate animals like you.

resorting to namecalling and personal insults Colpyat?

[ColPyat]

resorting to namecalling and personal insults Colpyat?

I really missed your insightful comments.

[mogoso]

.

One of the biggest lies especially regarding anti-retrovirals and AIDS research is the development costs of those drugs. First of all, most was not financed by the pharma companies, but by universities through government funds, and pharma companies only financed clinical trials. Many patents do not even belong to the pharma companies, but the universities. But the pharma companies spend a lot of effort any money to prevent generic providers from finding out to whom these patents actually belong.

I am not gonna waste my time with you anymore to go into any more details. All this information is freely available if you make the effort to actually familiarize yourself with the problem. For you this may be just an armchair warrior issue, for me though it isn't.

Many people i love are infected, and do only survive because the existence of generic medicine. If it were for people like you, they would be dead. Fortunately though the world does not only consist of coldhearted uncompassionate animals like you.

[/quote

Let me get this right its ok for the US to fund these universities to do the research. But when the gov't turns the research over to US Pharma companies hoping to recoup the monies given to the universities through taxes on the company through the sales of new drugs, but thats not allowable. I do agree that the profit is great, but we live in a litagious society where every drug company worries about the next vioxx or other drug suits.

Actually many of the top pharma companies aren't even US companies Bayer. Roche, Glaxosmithkline, Novartis, Aventis, Astrazeneca arent they all Euro companies, yet the tone of the postings always seem to have an antiamerican slant. It really curious how so many posters on this board color their thoughts with an underlying antiamericanism, without a passing jab at their own counties (companies) shortcomings.

I'm sorry you've many loved ones suffering from Aids. from what I've seen its a horrible disease. But to be truthful I know no one in my lifes travels that has it, I read about it how its affecting so many people, and have seen in visits to the clinic a few people that were suffering from it, but they weren't in my life. I wish them well, but unless its a child who had no say in the matter it was a lifestyle choice.

I se my primary physician every six months for the past 35 years and I get my blood tested at the same time . About ten years back after a visit to Thailand I was told I had Hep C. I don't use drugs, I don't hang with people who do. I didn't get a tatoo, so I was at a loss on how I might have gotten this disease. After four years of tests at 6 month intervals where it'd show up on one test and not another a final determination was made that I did indeed have it. I was sent to a class where I was given info on transmittal of disease. The cure rates and of the ten percent it'd just go away.

I did learn not to let anyone use your razor (not a problem there) or of all things your toothbrush. Fortunately for me I'm one of the lucky ten percent.

But I did learn not to let any casual overnight guest use your toothbrush, a word of warning to those who have that occasional visitor. Not a problem to me any more as my wife keeps talking about ducks.

[sriracha john]

With AIDS they definately do have a case in declaring 'national emergency'. And in this regard it is the right decision.

But including medicine for heart deseases they don't have a case, and they will face justified criticism that will weaken their very strong case with AIDS drugs.

A lot more people in Thailand die from heart disease than from hiv/aids related illnesses.

Absolutely... it's not even close.

"One Thai died of heart disease every six minutes, according to the study by the Clinical Research Collaboration Network, based on data from 1985 to 2002 on patients at 17 hospitals nationwide."

If that doesn't constitute a "national emergency," nothing does.

Still.. it IS a sticky situation for both sets of drugs balancing the needs and rights of the patented drug producers with those of 3rd world countries.. Personally, I'd say go for it and license the generics for both categories of drugs. I certainly wouldn't exclude one category for the other.

Edited January 26, 2007 by sriracha john

[chuchok]

victim of a lifestyle disease

Clear the emotion as you cannot think straight when debating irresponsibility. Africans do not believe in the use of condoms, it is against their culture. They view condoms as a being a part of colonialism. Migrant labor, second and third wives, truck stop sex. What do you expect? Am I suppose to feel sorry because some man in the middle of Africa did not consider his children before he decided where to drain his snake?

It comes to INDIVIDUAL and GOVERNMENTS responsibility not corporate responsibility!

What about the kids.You are talking about a country with mass poverty and low education.How do you propose to fix it then>?

What would you do if your neighbours house burnt down...let it burn?

You probably go along with the USA policy of "Abstinance will fix this thing" well,that's a bit like telling the sun not to come up in the morning...it ain't going to happen pal.Not in our lifetime.

You might not feel sorry for some poor,uneducated bloke,but do you feel sorry for the kids?Somehow I don't think so.

You should go to Africa to help educate them.better still,go to an Orphanage here and tell the affected kids that it is their problem.....

[farang prince]

It's almost as though they really don't give a toss and are enjoying sticking their fingers up at the rest of the world.

Hence, my comment the other day on the current wave of nationalism. They really do not care and it can be seen in many different industries and not just as it relates to the new foreign business laws. These things come in waves, and will change as soon as the impacts are felt.

We need to take a look at this action in the context of what else is happening in Thailand today. It will further erode the desire of western companies to do business in Thailand.

[ColPyat]

.

Let me get this right its ok for the US to fund these universities to do the research. But when the gov't turns the research over to US Pharma companies hoping to recoup the monies given to the universities through taxes on the company through the sales of new drugs, but thats not allowable. I do agree that the profit is great, but we live in a litagious society where every drug company worries about the next vioxx or other drug suits.

Actually many of the top pharma companies aren't even US companies Bayer. Roche, Glaxosmithkline, Novartis, Aventis, Astrazeneca arent they all Euro companies, yet the tone of the postings always seem to have an antiamerican slant. It really curious how so many posters on this board color their thoughts with an underlying antiamericanism, without a passing jab at their own counties (companies) shortcomings.

I'm sorry you've many loved ones suffering from Aids. from what I've seen its a horrible disease. But to be truthful I know no one in my lifes travels that has it, I read about it how its affecting so many people, and have seen in visits to the clinic a few people that were suffering from it, but they weren't in my life. I wish them well, but unless its a child who had no say in the matter it was a lifestyle choice.

I se my primary physician every six months for the past 35 years and I get my blood tested at the same time . About ten years back after a visit to Thailand I was told I had Hep C. I don't use drugs, I don't hang with people who do. I didn't get a tatoo, so I was at a loss on how I might have gotten this disease. After four years of tests at 6 month intervals where it'd show up on one test and not another a final determination was made that I did indeed have it. I was sent to a class where I was given info on transmittal of disease. The cure rates and of the ten percent it'd just go away.

I did learn not to let anyone use your razor (not a problem there) or of all things your toothbrush. Fortunately for me I'm one of the lucky ten percent.

But I did learn not to let any casual overnight guest use your toothbrush, a word of warning to those who have that occasional visitor. Not a problem to me any more as my wife keeps talking about ducks.

It is children who get born with AIDS, it is rape victims, it is wifes and husbands who got infected by their partners who either did not disclose or know of their infection, it's hemophiliacs, people who got treated with unclean medical equipment, people with promisquous lifestyle, drug addics, prostitutes, etc.

But does it matter how one go infected? Not really.

But basically, it can happen to anyone. You can protect yourself against many factors, but against some there is simply no protection. If your partner is unfaithful to you? If you need urgent blood transfusion in a country does has no proper screening? If you get raped? If you are born with it?

AIDS is a terrible desease if one does not have access to anti-retrovirals. With anti-retrovirals HIV infected can live a productive life. Here in Thailand, as things are now, it does not effect the life of the people too badly. Before the free treatment, in my wife's village constantly people died of AIDS, it was one of the most common causes to die. Now, very few die of it, it's mostly the ones who do not accept their status and go too late for treatment. It's a difference between night and day.

I don't want to go into anti-Americanism and such, and yes, you are right, it does not really matter where those companies headoffices are located in, in today's global world corporations are anyhow transnational.

But, in this globalised world it does not really matter which government initially funded what. What matters is, that when a country's economy is threatened by a massive loss of large sectors of society in their most productive age, it is not just a human tragedy, it a loss to the rest of the world that needs those people and countries in order to keep expanding economically.

And, lets not forget, the WTO has a law that allows countries to circumvent patent laws. In terms of AIDS drugs, Thailand has done nothing illegal whatsoever with the decision to apply this law.

My only fear is, as i have stated before, that by including heart desease, and not be specific about the drugs, and not pressuring pharmaceutical countries beforehand, they might have handled the issue the wrong way. But the principle of the action is not wrong in any way.

500 000 to one million infected out of a population of about 65 million that will all need coverage of free anti-retrovirals very soon in order to survive is a national emergency.

[pampal]

It's about time someone stood up to the pharmaceutical companies.

Maybe it wasn't handled in the most diplomatic way but this regime isn't known for it's diplomatic methods.

[Chang_paarp]

If you look at a few recent events you may have seen this coming.

Toxic Shitywater et al stops the Mr Condom man campaign.

Other stuff

New regime

30B hospital scheme made free.

Lots of press reports about the poor health of the Thai populace.

New thinking on how money works.

New thinking on how to get drugs affordable for the health system.

Yes it could have been handled a lot better. I don't think the folks making the rules have realised how much power the pharmaceutical industry actually has. The US ambassador said some very nice words after the chat by the powers that be to the Combined Chambers of Commerce, bet he has some very different words to say on Monday or Tuesday when HIS powers that be get into their office and start taking calls. Remember the FTA has not been signed, so look for the word tariff to enter the headlines.

Sit back and watch the entertainment. I predict a couple of back-flips with double pike.

[MrSnrang]

It doesn't matter if the people producing generic drugs make profit. Everyone making something makes money but that's besides the point.

The drugs should be affordable for the average person.

[Morty]

i have to agree with the junta on this one, if it costs a thai person $330 a month to buy these drugs which is more than a lot of Thais even earn, plus depending on their illness they might not even be capable of working, and if taking these drugs or not is a matter of life and death or even prolonging someones life and giving them a better life then go ahead. the drug companies are some of the greediest b@stards in the world, while i understand they need a lot of money for R&D they still make staggering profits, there is no need for them to charge the prices they do to countries in Asia/Africa where only the rich and not the average person can afford these life saving drugs. especially if a generic version of the drug can be produced for 10% of the cost, a big difference paying $330 a month as to $33 a month. I think the first thing they've done i agree with.

BB

Boo Hoo. It is because of the stealing of patents that there is so little innovation in the world. Do you really think they are going to spend money on researching cures for AIDS when every Tom Dick and Harry can just simply declare an emergency and copy which ever drugs they want for free? What would encourage ANY company to spend billions on R&D when someone will just come along and copy it for free. Why bother in the first place?

All fine and well he says that drugs companies are greedy, yet it is those same companies that our pensions and retirement plans invest in. They turn a profit, we get better retirement benefits. Who is greedy, the companies or us?

THESE illnesses that we are talking about is not the Bird Flu, Ebola or the West Nile virus, they are PREVENTABLE. The WHO clause is being read like most people read the bible. They interpret it the way it suits their needs or desires. The clause was originally for national emergencies for diseases that were not only contagious but also beyond control in terms of spread. The clause was to prevent mass contamination. Heart disease in Asia, maybe they should encourage people to eat healthy and not stick hamburgers in their faces at every opportunity. Was it not Thailand that spoke last year about the state of children's diets that are making them obese? Has the use of condoms not been advocated in Africa?

We infringe on others rights, those same rights we expect others will uphold in respect of our businesses. Yet because we suffer from tunnel vision, we demand that others surrender their rights to their intellectual property. Why? Simple because it is a short term solution to our greed and ineptness.

Dear sir,

If you are going to explain the lesser innovation, by stealing of patents you don't know cr@p about them. Patents the way they're implimentet in the US, are hindering innovation. you can basicly patent anything you want, and the USPTO would more than probably grant it (unless it obvious like a number or something like that) If some other R/D dep. in another company gets an idea, and develop something useful using this idea. It could still bee patented by some "patentholding" company, that would sue your a** of you the moment you start to make money, and it will be you who will be trying to show prior art or whatever to get the patent innvalidated. So to blame lack of innovation because there are to few of them could only be comming from a patent holder with a dream

<rant over>

back on topic, as long as the WHO doesn't see a problem with it either do I

Morty

[deminister]

There is more than enough budget. Sell the aircraft carrier, which is absurd for a third world country to use. As long as they can withdraw 1,5 BILLION baht days after a coup to pay for the expenses of those people who have supported the rape of democracy. And as long as the army and cabinet spend 859,000 baht a month on salaries while the former crew got less than 125,000 THB there seems to be enough budget. it is only spend on the wrong things. The drugs companies might be making a lot of money but they were offering cheap licenses to Thailand. research must be paid for too,

[mesohappy314]

.

Let me get this right its ok for the US to fund these universities to do the research. But when the gov't turns the research over to US Pharma companies hoping to recoup the monies given to the universities through taxes on the company through the sales of new drugs, but thats not allowable. I do agree that the profit is great, but we live in a litagious society where every drug company worries about the next vioxx or other drug suits.

Actually many of the top pharma companies aren't even US companies Bayer. Roche, Glaxosmithkline, Novartis, Aventis, Astrazeneca arent they all Euro companies, yet the tone of the postings always seem to have an antiamerican slant. It really curious how so many posters on this board color their thoughts with an underlying antiamericanism, without a passing jab at their own counties (companies) shortcomings.

I'm sorry you've many loved ones suffering from Aids. from what I've seen its a horrible disease. But to be truthful I know no one in my lifes travels that has it, I read about it how its affecting so many people, and have seen in visits to the clinic a few people that were suffering from it, but they weren't in my life. I wish them well, but unless its a child who had no say in the matter it was a lifestyle choice.

I se my primary physician every six months for the past 35 years and I get my blood tested at the same time . About ten years back after a visit to Thailand I was told I had Hep C. I don't use drugs, I don't hang with people who do. I didn't get a tatoo, so I was at a loss on how I might have gotten this disease. After four years of tests at 6 month intervals where it'd show up on one test and not another a final determination was made that I did indeed have it. I was sent to a class where I was given info on transmittal of disease. The cure rates and of the ten percent it'd just go away.

I did learn not to let anyone use your razor (not a problem there) or of all things your toothbrush. Fortunately for me I'm one of the lucky ten percent.

But I did learn not to let any casual overnight guest use your toothbrush, a word of warning to those who have that occasional visitor. Not a problem to me any more as my wife keeps talking about ducks.

It is children who get born with AIDS, it is rape victims, it is wifes and husbands who got infected by their partners who either did not disclose or know of their infection, it's hemophiliacs, people who got treated with unclean medical equipment, people with promisquous lifestyle, drug addics, prostitutes, etc.

But does it matter how one go infected? Not really.

But basically, it can happen to anyone. You can protect yourself against many factors, but against some there is simply no protection. If your partner is unfaithful to you? If you need urgent blood transfusion in a country does has no proper screening? If you get raped? If you are born with it?

AIDS is a terrible desease if one does not have access to anti-retrovirals. With anti-retrovirals HIV infected can live a productive life. Here in Thailand, as things are now, it does not effect the life of the people too badly. Before the free treatment, in my wife's village constantly people died of AIDS, it was one of the most common causes to die. Now, very few die of it, it's mostly the ones who do not accept their status and go too late for treatment. It's a difference between night and day.

I don't want to go into anti-Americanism and such, and yes, you are right, it does not really matter where those companies headoffices are located in, in today's global world corporations are anyhow transnational.

But, in this globalised world it does not really matter which government initially funded what. What matters is, that when a country's economy is threatened by a massive loss of large sectors of society in their most productive age, it is not just a human tragedy, it a loss to the rest of the world that needs those people and countries in order to keep expanding economically.

And, lets not forget, the WTO has a law that allows countries to circumvent patent laws. In terms of AIDS drugs, Thailand has done nothing illegal whatsoever with the decision to apply this law.

My only fear is, as i have stated before, that by including heart desease, and not be specific about the drugs, and not pressuring pharmaceutical countries beforehand, they might have handled the issue the wrong way. But the principle of the action is not wrong in any way.

500 000 to one million infected out of a population of about 65 million that will all need coverage of free anti-retrovirals very soon in order to survive is a national emergency.

Maybe you should go into the anti-Americanism. Or at least examine it within yourself. It is certainly present.

[Johpa]

one time only ,

it effects us all , longer we wait , argue about who does what ............

worse it's going to be

There is never a one time only. Look at how many drugs are copied in India as an example. We are doing nothing more than killing ourselves. For each drug that gets copied, we as humans loose. Drugs companies will not invest in R&D if they cannot turn a profit. It is capitalism unless we all want to move to North Korea. Look at the huge amount of sub standard generic drugs the US and EU are trying to keep out of their countries. The exact same morons who manufacture and profit from that substandard drugs create even far worst problems by creating super viruses. Who gets to research and cure the super virus? Ping Pong Drugs Inc? They could not give a hoot! Just take a look at how XDR-TB has spread in Africa.

I don't think there will be a cure for AIDS in my lifetime. It is something I have to think about if I ever wish to drain my snake in a snake pit. I am responsible to my family. I am responsible to my children. IF I fail in MY responsibility, I have no one else to blame but myself.

Here is a rare example of where the actions of the current Thai government deserve praise.

Leaving aside the contemptuous snake in a snake pit metaphor, I highly reccomend you read Marcia Angell's book The Truth About the Drug Companies to understand just how wrong you are. The major drug companies are not R&D companies, they are marketing companies with oodels of politcial clout. They insure that in the US there is plenty of public funds spent on medical R&D research which, when showing signs of promise, are then allowed to be purchased cheaply by Big Pharma, but only after the investment risk of the specific R&D has greatly lessened. The percentage of revenue that the big pharmeceutical companies themselves spend on R&D is not significant as that is not their raison d'être. If you think this is capitalism then you are sadly mistaken apart from it being just a western version of "crony capitalism". It is piracy.

[chuchok]

one time only ,

it effects us all , longer we wait , argue about who does what ............

worse it's going to be

There is never a one time only. Look at how many drugs are copied in India as an example. We are doing nothing more than killing ourselves. For each drug that gets copied, we as humans loose. Drugs companies will not invest in R&D if they cannot turn a profit. It is capitalism unless we all want to move to North Korea. Look at the huge amount of sub standard generic drugs the US and EU are trying to keep out of their countries. The exact same morons who manufacture and profit from that substandard drugs create even far worst problems by creating super viruses. Who gets to research and cure the super virus? Ping Pong Drugs Inc? They could not give a hoot! Just take a look at how XDR-TB has spread in Africa.

I don't think there will be a cure for AIDS in my lifetime. It is something I have to think about if I ever wish to drain my snake in a snake pit. I am responsible to my family. I am responsible to my children. IF I fail in MY responsibility, I have no one else to blame but myself.

Here is a rare example of where the actions of the current Thai government deserve praise.

Leaving aside the contemptuous snake in a snake pit metaphor, I highly reccomend you read Marcia Angell's book The Truth About the Drug Companies to understand just how wrong you are. The major drug companies are not R&D companies, they are marketing companies with oodels of politcial clout. They insure that in the US there is plenty of public funds spent on medical R&D research which, when showing signs of promise, are then allowed to be purchased cheaply by Big Pharma, but only after the investment risk of the specific R&D has greatly lessened. The percentage of revenue that the big pharmeceutical companies themselves spend on R&D is not significant as that is not their raison d'être. If you think this is capitalism then you are sadly mistaken apart from it being just a western version of "crony capitalism". It is piracy.

You are wasting your time with aqua4.People like him never see the wood for the trees.Hopefully his children live in a perfect world.

[ColPyat]

Maybe you should go into the anti-Americanism. Or at least examine it within yourself. It is certainly present.

This here is, i believe, not the right place (though maybe one of the correct occasions), as there are more than a few policies propagated by the American government and its system of eroding democracy through lobbying that are not shared, welcomed or supported by the overwhelming majority of the world's population, and also not by an increasing number of Americans themselves.

But, debating this is neither the right place, nor Thailand related, and would just end in a flame war and a closed thread. Which would be a shame, because this topic is very interesting, and, as i said, personally very important to me.

So, please, if you take offense at this, don't debate it here, and don't debate it with me.

[Scott]

I am no fan of big pharma, but I am sorry, when this country says they don't have the money for these drugs, I don't believe it. Just look at the billions and billions of baht that goes in corruption (just look at the new airport). When they attack corruption with a little bit of vigor first, and channel some of that money to treating sick people, then they can make a case.

Until then, it's just the usual crap and in the end we will pay.

[HenryB]

It doesn't matter if the people producing generic drugs make profit. Everyone making something makes money but that's besides the point.

The drugs should be affordable for the average person.

Do you think the same people behind the airport will be making the drugs? How good will they be? will more died? Maybe just cheap. Maybe the real ones will be better?

Edited January 29, 2007 by HenryB

[manjara]

But in case of AIDS the WTO law is applied correctly. AIDS is contagious, has reached national emergency proportions, and supply of necessary, life saving medicine is threatened.

Are you joking? AIDS is a lifestyle disease not a contagious disease per se. It appears to be a national crises because governments have failed to implement preventative steps. They failed alternatively neglected to prevent its spread, so give us a free cure. What sort of mentality is that?

From what I have heard, some of the people who are getting the drugs from the thai government are STILL WORKING in the sex industry.

I'm not sure what kind of education would work on these people, but there should be a lot more education happening than currently.

If the Thai government had combined the license of generic retro-viral with a far-reaching program to prevent AIDS occurring in the first place, then it would probably be looked on more sympathetically.

One has to wonder who will get these licences and what their connections to the government will be ...

[sriracha john]

Information on the specific medications has just been released:

Thailand allows copycat AIDS, heart disease drugs

BANGKOK - Thailand has issued "compulsory licenses" for generic, copycat versions of Kaletra, an HIV-AIDS drug, and Plavix, a blockbuster treatment for heart disease, in a move likely to outrage international pharmaceutical companies.

"The laws have been signed and became effective on Friday," Health Minister Mongkol na Songkhla told reporters on Monday.

- Reuters

============================================================

Both are life-prolonging, but very expensive, medications.

Information on Kaletra:

http://www.kaletra.com/

Cost:

480 ml = US$1,144.92

http://www.drugstore.com/pharmacy/prices/d...&trx=1Z5006

Dosage:

10 ml/day

http://www.rxabbott.com/pdf/kaletratabpi.pdf

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information on Plavix:

http://www.plavix.com/

Cost:

30 tablets = US$126.99

http://www.drugstore.com/pharmacy/prices/d...&trx=1Z5006

Dosage:

1 tablet/day

http://products.sanofi-aventis.us/plavix/plavix.html#dosage

Edited January 29, 2007 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

From what I have heard, some of the people who are getting the drugs from the thai government are STILL WORKING in the sex industry.

I'm not sure what kind of education would work on these people, but there should be a lot more education happening than currently.

If the Thai government had combined the license of generic retro-viral with a far-reaching program to prevent AIDS occurring in the first place, then it would probably be looked on more sympathetically.

One has to wonder who will get these licences and what their connections to the government will be ...

It is a fallacy to extrapolate "from what you have heard" to a judging entire complex policies.

First of all, in terms of AIDS Thailand is not only looked at "sympathetically", but is indeed praised by organisations such as WHO, for its prevention programs and its treatment of infected, as exemplary for the rest of the developing world. Whatever else the Thai governments have managed to screw up, and there is plenty, AIDS is not one of those things.

Secondly, Thailand has a extremely good country wide network of registration and supply of drugs, which was helped to be set up by many organisations, such as MSF Belgium. Drugs are not simply given out like candies, but controlled, under supervision and with strict rules.

Of course some will slip under the radar, but unless you propose to put all infected in concentration camps, this will be unavoidable, and happens so in the west as well. And yes, most definately some infected sexworkers are knowingly still in the business, some on medication, some not. But there are relatively easy forms protection available for clients and prostitute. That is the responsibility of the individual involved, especially the client here in this case, to protect themselves.

If you though look at the statistics of newly infected here in Thailand, things are rather clear. In the sexbusiness the rate of newly infected has been going down rapidly, and since nearly ten years. Most new infections happen now not in commercial sex, but in non commercial encounters, such as casual sex or within marriages, and there was a slight increase in the last ten years. Which i believe has a lot to do with changing attitudes towards sex in the society.

It is not yet clear, as far as i know, if the corresponding development to the west has taken place here, that within certain high risk groups the arrival of anti-retrovirals, which changed AIDS into a treatable chronic desease, has resulted in a decreased use of of condoms and a rise of new infections within those sub-groups.

One does not have to wonder who will get the licenses, and what their relationship with the government is, and whatever else people who have never familiarised themselves with this issue tend to suspect and speculate about.

Most likely the license will be given to the GPO (Government Pharmaceutical Organisation), and maybe some private companies. And given the so far excellent track record in terms of manufacturing and supply of anti-retrovirals here, i have no doubt that this will continue so.