Europe moves to safeguard interests in Iran after U.S. pullout

[bristolboy]

 

 

6 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

IMHO the USA under Trump has achieved more in 18 months that the Russians EVER did during the cold war period.

 

Trump, but not necessarily the USA is quickly running out of friends and allies and while HE is threatening sanctions on all and sundry he is trying to take on the rest of the world. A recipe for disaster for and many other countries and especially for the USA.

 

How about the USA? How many German Jewish scientists were left alive after the war? Where would they have got the uranium from? Who supplied Israel with weapons over the the last 50 or so years?

Lots of German Jewish scientists made it to the USA. Where they helped to build the bomb. As for the uranium, as you may recall, Israel worked with South Africa to develop nuclear weaons. And that's where they got some uranium from. Also from Argentina.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/02/israels-secret-uranium-buy/

[bristolboy]

57 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Define "dependable" and what the "ally" bit covers. I'd say the pertinent question is do we take the French Minister's words seriously....

Well, let's say that Russia attacked a member of Nato...I mean would anyone seriously doubt that the USA under President Trump would go to that member's aid...oh wait...

[lannarebirth]

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

Yes but the "agreement" has to be entered into by the responsible entity of said country.

Any country entering into  an agreement signed by , lets say (to carry this to an absurd extreme) by the dog catcher  should be entered into at risk of peril .

 

Yes, many people like to talk about the "dictator" Trump but the fact is that the US presidency is the weakest of the three branches of US government and that presidency is vested with less power than most other global heads of state. The US has a representative form of government and those representatives are in the Congress. Presidents like Obama with no heart for a political fight almost always chose to sidestep Congress through executive actions but they are barely worth the paper they are written on and can be rescinded at will by any future administration.

[bristolboy]

9 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Yes, many people like to talk about the "dictator" Trump but the fact is that the US presidency is the weakest of the three branches of US government and that presidency is vested with less power than most other global heads of state. The US has a representative form of government and those representatives are in the Congress. Presidents like Obama with no heart for a political fight almost always chose to sidestep Congress through executive actions but they are barely worth the paper they are written on and can be rescinded at will by any future administration.

Aside from the expected, gratuitous and misleading comments about Obama, most Constitutional scholars would find your comments about the Presidency being the weakest branch of government risible, Perhaps that was the intent of the authors of the Constitution, but in fact, Presidential war making power has increasingly encroached on the Congress's.

Power and the Presidency, From Kennedy to Obama

For the past 50 years, the commander in chief has steadily expanded presidential power, particularly in foreign policy

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/power-and-the-presidency-from-kennedy-to-obama-75335897/#p2PmgEytihBRIhG1.99
 

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Morch said:

I'm more optimistic with regard to the Trump presidency damages repair work forecast. But as pointed out above, that doesn't address the issue of administrations getting into the habit of bypassing proper legislation.

Generally we Europeans don't like Americans, when you have selected a republican president, which we often consider to be extremist and nutcases.

 

The relationship and the general positive thought of USA improves during more moderate democratic presidents. Hence the Obama Nobel peace prize.  

 

This time, while EU does understand that Trump does not represent the who country of USA, it might be different. USA needs to be bear the responsibility of fact that it allowed to Trump to get in to the power. 

 

This time USA is the really bad villain, which is doing everything it can, to end years of co-operation between western countries. 

 

Perhaps it's time to admit that the values of the Europe and the USA are not inline anymore. At least it seems that the Atlantic ocean has gotten a lot wider in the past year. 

 

Well played Russia. You managed to get your man as the president of the USA to do the dirty work and he is definitely worth of every rubble, you gave him. 

[Srikcir]

24 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Actually, according to that document, if a President signs an agreement without the backing of a majority of the Senate, his endorsement would only be recognized for agreements that are limited in scope that touch on his status of commander-in-chief. Like an armistice agreement. Broad agreements like this probably wouldn't make the cut. Had the Senate given him majority approval that would be different.

It's not that the Congress didn't have an opportunity to try to debate the agreement. Unlike Trump's Presidential Orders, Obama's nuclear deal got congressional disclosure. However, the Republican majority in the Senate failed (58-42, short of a required 60-vote threshold previously established by the Republican majority) to even reach an up-or-down vote on a disapproval resolution of the nuclear deal. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/10/iran-nuclear-deal-senate-day-of-decision

[lannarebirth]

6 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Aside from the expected, gratuitous and misleading comments about Obama, most Constitutional scholars would find your comments about the Presidency being the weakest branch of government risible, Perhaps that was the intent of the authors of the Constitution, but in fact, Presidential war making power has increasingly encroached on the Congress's.

Power and the Presidency, From Kennedy to Obama

For the past 50 years, the commander in chief has steadily expanded presidential power, particularly in foreign policy

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/power-and-the-presidency-from-kennedy-to-obama-75335897/#p2PmgEytihBRIhG1.99
 

 

And where in the Constitution is any of that authorized? The fact that subsequent presidencies often don't override the actions of a prior presidency doesn't mean they can not. Nor does it mean that Congress can't override it by failing to fund it. Nor does it mean that the Supreme Court can't find a given action unconstitutional and revoke it. Like I said it is the weakest of the "seperate but equal " branches.

Edited May 12, 2018 by lannarebirth

[Morch]

24 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Well, let's say that Russia attacked a member of Nato...I mean would anyone seriously doubt that the USA under President Trump would go to that member's aid...oh wait...

 

As it stands, I have no doubts the US would go to that member's aid under such circumstances. And I don't think that for all the talk, NATO members do not worry about it much either. When it comes to Trump's diplomatic conduct or with regard to worries about the US's (under an isolationist president or if Trump gets another terms in office) long term commitment to NATO, things may be different.

 

[bristolboy]

5 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

And where in the Constitution is any of that authorized? The fact that subsequent presidencies often don't override the actions of a prior presidency doesn't mean they can not. Nor does it mean that Congress can't override it by failing to fund it. Nor does it mean that the Supreme Court can't find a given action unconstitutional and revoke it. Like I said it is the weakest of the "seperate but equal " branches.

If the case is as you assert, then why did the Congress pass the War Powers Act?

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

As it stands, I have no doubts the US would go to that member's aid under such circumstances. And I don't think that for all the talk, NATO members do not worry about it much either. When it comes to Trump's diplomatic conduct or with regard to worries about the US's (under an isolationist president or if Trump gets another terms in office) long term commitment to NATO, things may be different.

 

Good to hear that you have no doubt.  Given your past evaluations of threats, not so sure the Latvians and Lithuanians should feel so reassured.

[lannarebirth]

11 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

If the case is as you assert, then why did the Congress pass the War Powers Act?

In the act you assert it is required that putting armed forces into a military action must be very limited in time without further Congressional approval. The War Powers Act is in itself the initial Congressional approval. The power to act stems from Congress.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Generally we Europeans don't like Americans, when you have selected a republican president, which we often consider to be extremist and nutcases.

 

The relationship and the general positive thought of USA improves during more moderate democratic presidents. Hence the Obama Nobel peace prize.  

 

This time, while EU does understand that Trump does not represent the who country of USA, it might be different. USA needs to be bear the responsibility of fact that it allowed to Trump to get in to the power. 

 

This time USA is the really bad villain, which is doing everything it can, to end years of co-operation between western countries. 

 

Perhaps it's time to admit that the values of the Europe and the USA are not inline anymore. At least it seems that the Atlantic ocean has gotten a lot wider in the past year. 

 

Well played Russia. You managed to get your man as the president of the USA to do the dirty work and he is definitely worth of every rubble, you gave him. 

 

Allow me to doubt that yours is the voice of "we Europeans". I would  also expect many Europeans to be able and differentiate between Trump (or the Trump administration) and Americans in general. Not really seeing what the bogus noble prize Obama got (before he even had much time to have an impact) got to do with this. No idea what supposed European "values" you have in mind, and in the same way, with which supposed USA "values" they contrast.

 

As for Russia...yeah, there's that.

 

 

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Good to hear that you have no doubt.  Given your past evaluations of threats, not so sure the Latvians and Lithuanians should feel so reassured.

 

Coming from a poster who just managed to find his password, that's not much of a argument.

[sirineou]

22 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Yes, many people like to talk about the "dictator" Trump but the fact is that the US presidency is the weakest of the three branches of US government and that presidency is vested with less power than most other global heads of state. The US has a representative form of government and those representatives are in the Congress. Presidents like Obama with no heart for a political fight almost always chose to sidestep Congress through executive actions but they are barely worth the paper they are written on and can be rescinded at will by any future administration.

 not sure whether it is stronger or weaker that would be a subjective determination since the duties are different and were designed to  counterbalance each other.  

Term limits for Congress!!

The executive branch is limited to two , four year terms,While congress is not,  making congress people comfortable in their employment and power and reluctant to do the heavy lifting in fear of being on the losing side , not being reelected, and having to work for a living.

They are happy to seed the heavy listing to the executive and the executive having limited time to expedite its agenda happy to take it and avoid congressional confrontation and expedite the issue via executive agreements. The problem with Executive Agreements is that as soon as the administration changes they can be eliminated with the stroke of a pen . And that seeding of power to the executive branch creating an imperial presidency.  

And don't for a moment think that the US is not an Empire much in the way Rome was.  

Simply google the term "is the US an empire" a lot of credible discussion on the subject. below is a link to an article 

US 'is an empire in denial'

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Allow me to doubt that yours is the voice of "we Europeans". I would  also expect many Europeans to be able and differentiate between Trump (or the Trump administration) and Americans in general. Not really seeing what the bogus noble prize Obama got (before he even had much time to have an impact) got to do with this. No idea what supposed European "values" you have in mind, and in the same way, with which supposed USA "values" they contrast.

 

As for Russia...yeah, there's that.

 

 

European values is to avoid wars and live our lives in peace, as in the opposition of American values, which puts huge value to it's military and military people. You don't hear much European leader praising for his country's military forces in political rallies. You hear that all the time in US political rallies. 

Guns and violence or less guns and less violence. There is a difference between folks in Europe and USA. 

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, oilinki said:

European values is to avoid wars and live our lives in peace, as in the opposition of American values, which puts huge value to it's military and military people. You don't hear much European leader praising for his country's military forces in political rallies. You hear that all the time in US political rallies. 

Guns and violence or less guns and less violence. There is a difference between folks in Europe and USA. 

 

Various European nations are engaged in military operations overseas. Not all of these got something to do with the US. European corporations and governments sell arms to dodgy regimes. As for praising the military and such...you do know where Trump got the military parade thing from, right?So once more, allow me to doubt your crude generalizations.

 

Gun control is not quite the topic here, though pretty sure the usual enthusiasts would like to make it so.

[bristolboy]

37 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Coming from a poster who just managed to find his password, that's not much of a argument.

Nice evasion.

[bristolboy]

46 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

In the act you assert it is required that putting armed forces into a military action must be very limited in time without further Congressional approval. The War Powers Act is in itself the initial Congressional approval. The power to act stems from Congress.

If the current status of presidiential power accorded with your views, there would never have been any felt need to pass the War Powers Act. The history of the past 50 years argues against you.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Various European nations are engaged in military operations overseas. Not all of these got something to do with the US. European corporations and governments sell arms to dodgy regimes. As for praising the military and such...you do know where Trump got the military parade thing from, right?So once more, allow me to doubt your crude generalizations.

 

Gun control is not quite the topic here, though pretty sure the usual enthusiasts would like to make it so.

Trump got the military parade idea from his mentor, president Putin.

 

For me, and I think for most of the Europeans, it's ridiculous how much US politicians in general, praise the military. 

 

Military is an essential part of USA society. For European countries the military is simply an necessity. We would be much better off, if we wound't have to spend money to military, but we also understand the facts and do it, because we have to.

 

The less tension there is between different tribes of humans, the less we have to waste our money to protect ourselves. Peace means prosperity. 

 

That's why we want the Iran deal to work. More effort to the diplomacy and less money spent to contract killers who we call military forces. 

 

 

[bristolboy]

9 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Trump got the military parade idea from his mentor, president Putin.

 

 

 

Actually not.

Inspired by Bastille Day, Trump orders US military parade

http://www.france24.com/en/20180207-trump-military-parade-washington-us-army-bastille-day-france

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Trump got the military parade idea from his mentor, president Putin.

 

For me, and I think for most of the Europeans, it's ridiculous how much US politicians in general, praise the military. 

 

Military is an essential part of USA society. For European countries the military is simply an necessity. We would be much better off, if we wound't have to spend money to military, but we also understand the facts and do it, because we have to.

 

The less tension there is between different tribes of humans, the less we have to waste our money to protect ourselves. Peace means prosperity. 

 

That's why we want the Iran deal to work. More effort to the diplomacy and less money spent to contract killers who we call military forces. 

 

 

 

Regarding the military parade thing:

 

Trump Wants a Big Military Parade, Just Like France

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-pentagon-were-having-military-parade-800578

 

For me, and perhaps others (not claiming to speak in anyone's name), what's ridiculous is the sort of generalizations you offer.

 

And, of course, many a European nations are able to invest less in it's armed forces, knowing that the US is there to back them up.

 

Calling military forces "contract killers" is just another generalization, which even contrasts with your own acknowledgement of necessity.

 

Americans, military personnel.....wonder what's the next group you'll have a go at tonight.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Actually not.

Inspired by Bastille Day, Trump orders US military parade

http://www.france24.com/en/20180207-trump-military-parade-washington-us-army-bastille-day-france

And just because US president says something, we should now somehow trust what he says is true? That's a refreshing new idea. 

 

Perhaps he got the idea from France, perhaps the idea was pushed to him by Putin. With this US president we never can be sure. 

 

 

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed along with reply.  

 

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Morch said:

Americans, military personnel.....wonder what's the next group you'll have a go at tonight.

I should have left, only this so obvious sentence out here. This so obvious sentence to call out a response. 

 

I was about to mention it in my original reply, but I also wanted to hear the response. So I didn't. 

 

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I should have left, only this so obvious sentence out here. This so obvious sentence to call out a response. 

 

I was about to mention it in my original reply, but I also wanted to hear the response. So I didn't. 

 

 

ok.

[Guest]

As the Pandoras box is now opened on this topic, shouldn't we now progress to the real issues in hand. The real issues, which actually threaten the world peace.

 

We  have the evangelist base Trump supporters, who wish the Jews to concur the Jerusalem, simply to fulfil the prophecy of Jews occupying the promised land. 

In their twisted mind, the wholly bad people, the Jews, occupying the holy land triggers the Rapture, which will kill most of us and which will save 6000 of us to go to the heaven. 

That is what these nutters really believe and want to happen. They are fine with nuclear holocaust as they believe to be the chosen ones, who will accent to the heaven. 

That's where global politics is now. It's not representing sensible thoughts anymore. That's why this imbecile Trump era is so dangerous. These folks simply don't care of others. 

[Guest]

What we liberals, who are not freaking snowflakes, actually think.

 

 

[sirineou]

51 minutes ago, oilinki said:

As the Pandoras box is now opened on this topic, shouldn't we now progress to the real issues in hand. The real issues, which actually threaten the world peace.

 

We  have the evangelist base Trump supporters, who wish the Jews to concur the Jerusalem, simply to fulfil the prophecy of Jews occupying the promised land. 

In their twisted mind, the wholly bad people, the Jews, occupying the holy land triggers the Rapture, which will kill most of us and which will save 6000 of us to go to the heaven. 

That is what these nutters really believe and want to happen. They are fine with nuclear holocaust as they believe to be the chosen ones, who will accent to the heaven. 

That's where global politics is now. It's not representing sensible thoughts anymore. That's why this imbecile Trump era is so dangerous. These folks simply don't care of others. 

According to Sébastien Fath of CNRS, in 2016, there are 619 million Evangelicals in the world,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

How could they hope to go to heaven when they are 619 million of them and only 6 thousand will go? seems to me If I was one of them i would be a litle worried.

Personally I am not worried because I know they would need some extremely good looking guys with angelic singing voice and snazy dancing moves such as me for their choire. My spot is secure 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

According to Sébastien Fath of CNRS, in 2016, there are 619 million Evangelicals in the world,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

How could they hope to go to heaven when they are 619 million of them and only 6 thousand will go? seems to me If I was one of them i would be a litle worried.

Personally I am not worried because I know they would need some extremely good looking guys with angelic singing voice and snazy dancing moves such as me for their choire. My spot is secure 

They are stupid, utterly selfish people as their religion told's them to be. 

 

 

[Stargeezr]

So Fritz is from Iran?  Just  wondering why you would say it never happened

when I saw the results on TV. Where have you  been Fritz?

Geezer