Israeli forces kill dozens in Gaza as U.S. Embassy opens in Jerusalem

[farcanell]

58 minutes ago, lionsincity said:

these are crimes against humanity, plain and simple.

Yes... hamas needs to be held accountable, as a governing body, if not a religiously motivated one, for permitting and or encouraging its citizens to participate in such a deadly pastime.

Edited May 16, 2018 by farcanell

[farcanell]

6 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I get the impression you don’t see body count excessive, from the string of excuses you offer.

It’s the people attacking the fences, that don’t see the body count as excessive... everybody else is horrified

 

who knows what’s running through there heads, in accepting this outcome to their rioting.... because as a means to gaining access to the other side of the fence, it’s failing miserably, and any sane person would call for a halt on the continued assault on the isreal defenses

 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, carmine said:

Perhaps for the most part civilians were not looking for violence, but lets be honest, in any event, there was never, ever going to be any conceivable chance of a breach of the fence.  

 

Perhaps. Looking at various photos showing how protestors were spread, the majority were well in the back, and for the most part, were not harmed by bullets. While this wasn't quite the happening style protest originally envisaged, it wasn't violent.

 

Between these encampments and the fence there were usually two "layers" of protestors. The closest one to the fence comprised of mostly young men, more actively engaged in this or that form of rioting or violence. The other one, a sort of a mix between that and the larger group out back. These two closer groups are where most of the killing and injuries took place, with the greater controversy (I think) to do with those in the middle group.

 

As for being honest - the fence was breached a few times during the protests (I think most instances occurred at the initial phase, last month), and other Palestinians were shot or driven back, while in the process of attempting such. These were, for the most part, small groups. The point made was that had there been no effective deterrent, and a massive attempt to breach the fence occurred, the casualties would have been way higher.

 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I get the impression you don’t see body count excessive, from the string of excuses you offer.

 

I get the impression you're trolling. Especially as this was already directly addressed.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

45 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No, not "victim blaming". The focus in my posts is mainly on the leadership which engineers, promotes and allows its people to come in harm's way. There may have been some redeeming value to it, if the whole thing wasn't both futile and cynical. I do not see Hamas leadership or operatives as victims, whereas ordinary Gazans are for the most part caught up in this.

 

As posted earlier, I don't see the way Israel handled this as bereft of legal and moral issues.

Let's be more specific. You don't see the Israelis committing a mass killing and mass wounding as bereft of legal and moral issues.

 

I'm stunned. 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, notmyself said:

 

Not at all my learned friend. I'm pointing out that suggesting there are a plethora of options is quite simply untrue.

 

 

 

 

The options are be subjugated or fight for your freedom and die. Which would you choose?

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I would choose not to accept your faulty assumptions and assertions.

 

There are ways of conducting successful non-violent struggles, which at the very least would get less Palestinians killed, and perhaps save the Gaza Strip from a humanitarian disaster.

 

There are ways of shoring international support, usually easier when not making an extra effort to play the role of the fanatic terrorist. In the same vein, there are ways of decreasing the support enjoyed by rivals.

 

There are ways of fighting which aren't quite as daft as what the Palestinians managed after all them years. There are certainly ones which do not necessarily make your side look too bad.

 

And there's always the choice of compromise, diplomacy and politics. Granted, the Palestinians came to late in the day, after decades of rejectionism. That sort of left a vacuum for Israel to establish a new reality. Instead of addressing this reality, the Palestinians (or at least some, like the Hamas) still go on about the previous set.

 

A point often made in my posts (and it's factual, check it up) - each time the Palestinians chose violence, it worked to their disadvantage and worsened their circumstances. The bit of self governance which is the PA (representing - another sad fact - the high point of Palestinian self-determination) was achieved through diplomacy and negotiations.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Let's be more specific. You don't see the Israelis committing a mass killing and mass wounding as bereft of legal and moral issues.

 

I'm stunned. 

 

Wasn't aware trolls could be stunned. Live and learn.

[Morch]

13 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

Those victims are all Hamas policemen. They’ve no military function. The Qassam brigades are the military wing of Hamas.

Some of these policemen belong to a dedicated unit of border police.

Face recognition works pretty well at Israeli side...


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

As for "not having a military function" - that would rely on insisting only the Hamas military wing is involved in actions against Israel. Them all being "policemen" is quite a stretch.

 

13 hours ago, stevenl said:

Nothing to do with these protests, this is old.

 

You two should get your versions in order.

 

 

[puipuitom]

On ‎15‎-‎5‎-‎2018 at 2:02 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

By example: Police forces in Europe have frequently faced large scale riots in which rioters have used petrol bombs, and in some cases small arms. They have very rarely needed to resort to live arms fire and have never in modern history killed dozens of protesters or rioters.

 

I’ll remind you, non of these protestors entered Israel. Fence is IN Israel, so... incorrect.

Israeli forces killed these Palestinians in Gaza.

 

First of all: riots in Europe are against the estabishment, so .. financial damage. 

see: http://www.dw.com/en/hamburg-g20-riot-damages-run-into-millions/a-39745157 

The cost of the damage caused by street battles between protesters and police at the recent G20 summit in Hamburg may come in at about 12 million euros.

In Gaza-Israel is it: KILL the jews... AND BY THE 10.000'S

 

The fence.. is on Israëli land, so.. when anyone is at that fence, he/she is IN ISRAEL, just a few hundred meters away from Israëli settlemts.

Do you think, there is ONE soldier on the world, who takes the risk a 10,000 killers will break through into his land, killing his fellow-countrymen by the hundreds ?  NEVER ! 

They were all warned months in advance, but.. HAMAS wanted MARTYRERS, even a young baby girl, Laila al-Ghandour,  of eight (8) months was brought in.  Which responsable parents will take their baby into a situation rioting might occur ? Or was it just an orphan, nobody misses... ? 

see https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-protests.html 

 

See New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/world/middleeast/gaza-protest-israel.html  or  https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/hamas-plans-demonstrations-on-gaza-israel-border/4322739.html  or http://www.egyptindependent.com/hamas-prepares-mass-rallies-along-gaza-israel-border/  even https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-10/gaza-barrier-can-t-withstand-an-assault-by-mob-fencemaker-says even   https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gaza-israel-violence-at-border-fence-2018-04-27/

 

Read: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/03/israel-palestinians-us-hamas-mahmoud-abbas-speech-gaza-strip.html 

The movement is preparing to encourage masses of Palestinians to climb the fence, be the cost as it may. The more desperate they are, the more they are likely to head for points of friction with Israel and clash with its troops. They will have nothing to lose.

 

The sanctions Abbas announced will enter into force immediately. They will result once again in the suspension of wages to PA employees in Gaza, greater hardship for the enclave’s barely functioning hospitals and severe power cuts. In a few weeks, as the mass march nears, Gaza is expected to be under a blackout. This will give the Palestinians additional cause to rise up and set out for the border fence, with Hamas cheering them on so it can shift responsibility for its central role in their plight and Abbas using their plight for his own political means.

 

But.. why not rioting towards Egypt, as their "brother nation" also closed their borders for them....as the Egyptians do not want these terrorists in their country.

 

Come on... 2018... the information age... read... so much on Internet...  not only one side... but several sides...

[Morch]

13 hours ago, stevenl said:

It all really doesn't matter. Some countries protest, but at the same time let Israel get away with it, time and time again.

 

Also look at this thread, the whole world condensed Israel, but many posters blindly defend Israel. Looks like the news alert for a ghost rider, where a person in a car shouts out ' one ghost rider, there are dozens of them here'.

 

You claim that the whole world condemns Israel. That is not entirely correct - doubt all (or even most) countries officially reacted to events, and not all such reactions were as one-sided as you try to portray. Some criticized both Israel and the Hamas, while a few laid it all at Hamas's door. You may agree or disagree with such views, but it doesn't make your post correct.

[Morch]

12 hours ago, carmine said:

The points being either ignored, missed or simply being unaware of is that many of the Gaza problems could be hugely improved by israel being forced to end their illegal blockade of Gaza.  Add to that only 10% of the water supply is drinkable, with a humanitarian disaster not far away.  Israel has complete control, a stranglehold on this.

 

Moving on to the violence, i don't really understand what a highly trained IDF sniper would feel the need to murder women, children and a guy in a wheelchair.  Why does a highly trained IDF sniper think its acceptable to shoot a kid in the head from 300m because he's carrying a stone?  Its the totally disproportionate response that you see from them nowadays which is totally different from when i lived there years ago.  They really have to be very thankful that there is an incumbent American president that will defend them, (and the NRA) regardless of any situation and in breach of any protocol.

 

There is however no doubt in my mind that Hamas is stirring things up to use as cover for their attacks but regardless the ludicrous disproportionate response is unacceptable.

 

The blockade on Gaza is not ignored, and was addressed more than once on this topic. Never mind numerous past topics.

 

There is  no argument that the effects of the blockade are harsh, the suffering of the population in the Gaza Strip real, and that an environmental/humanitarian disaster is in the making.

 

The blockade on Gaza is in place because of Hamas's agenda, policies and actions. It is not that the Gaza Strip was always blockaded. Trying to disassociate between the Hamas rule, and the ongoing blockade is disingenuous.

 

Hamas is not particularly forthcoming when it comes to various solutions which could improve conditions in the Gaza Strip, as these require concessions it find difficult to accept. Oversight of dual use goods and materials entering the Gaza Strip was either denied or circumvented. Oil, gas and electricity related issues are always subject to complex dealings involving multiple parties. Disarmament, or handing over control of arms to the PA - denied. And so on, and so forth.

 

When restrictions were eased, Hamas promptly used opportunities to divert resources to its own goals and projects, or to procure more weapons.

 

Expecting Israel to simply lift the blockade, without serious assurances that its security will not be effected is not a reasonable position. I think there's a rather wide international understanding of this point, and acknowledgement that the issue is somewhat more complex than the simplistic notions offered.

 

On top of that, two countries maintain the blockade on the Gaza Strip - Israel and Egypt. I don't see a whole lot of

criticism, condemnation or even expectations directed at the latter in this regard.

 

You may want to check out a recent topic, detailing the Palestinians in Gaza managing to burn the oil & gas facilities servicing them, at the border pass. That was, I believe, the third time. Of course, all part of the peaceful protests.

 

[notmyself]

7 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Come on... 2018... the information age... read... so much on Internet...  not only one side... but several sides...

 

Yup... in the past some beliefs could be put down to or excused because of no education, poor schooling, no local library, lack of opportunity and such but now with most the entire collective knowledge of humanity at one's fingertips by way of a smartphone, that 'reasoning' can no longer be accepted. What could have (kindly) been put down to ignorance through lack of opportunity is now wilful ignorance. 

[Morch]

12 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

This mass killing has not yet tipped the balance, which begs a question:

 

At what point will those excusing this mass killing say enough is enough. How many Palestinians are Israeli forces permitted to kill before it becomes apparent to the excusers that this really is mass murder?

 

It seems very clear that number is not 58 dead and 2,500 injured - The excusers don't even accept that there should be an independent inquiry, or that forensic evidence should be gathered.

 

58 dead, 2,500 injured and the excusers can't even brook the question 'was this level of violence warranted'. 

 

Utterly disgusting. 

 

I would guess that the answer as to when's enough is enough would be laid at the Hamas leadership's door. Those actually following what's going on would note that the instance the order was given to cease the protests and dismantle the encampments near the fence, things pretty much shut down.

 

In other words, they could have done so at any time.

 

Then there's this:

 

50 of Dead in Gaza Protests Were Hamas Activists, Says Senior Hamas Official

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/50-of-dead-in-gaza-protest-were-hamas-activists-says-hamas-official-1.6094899

 

[notmyself]

12 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

This mass killing has not yet tipped the balance, which begs a question:

 

At what point will those excusing this mass killing say enough is enough. How many Palestinians are Israeli forces permitted to kill before it becomes apparent to the excusers that this really is mass murder?

 

I think you will find that if it was going to happen then it would of already. It's very much akin to the gun debate in the U.S. where you could have a Sandy Hook every day or even three times a day and nothing would be done because owning a gun is more important than the life of a child.

 

Saw a piece on Faux News earlier where they were talking about IEDs and Molotov cocktails being thrown while showing footage of some guy just kicking away a tear gas canister.  

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

9 hours ago, carmine said:

IDF also used white phosphorous in recent years but apparently that was ok with the Americans to.

 

But lets make this clear, if its Syria, for example,  and not Israel using weapons outlawed by the Geneva Convention is not ok.  But Israel gets a pass.

 

7 hours ago, simple1 said:

During Iraq War 11 US forces acknowledged use of white phosphorus munitions, therefore not likely US would condemn the IDF.

 

Not that it's quite what the topic is about, but the legalities regarding the use of white phosphorous in warfare are not quite as straightforward as implied above.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_munitions#Arms_control_status_and_military_regulations

 

This is, by the way, the case with many a rule attempting to regulate warfare. A whole lot of what posters imagine to be "war crimes" are not. It could be argued that there's need of better rules, or better morals, but it is what it is.

 

[JemJem]

As all of you probably know, Turkey is the country which has taken the toughest stand against Israel after these killings.

 

As some of you might know from another thread, I have harshly criticised Israel for what happened; but I don't want my country Turkey to be at the forefront of anti-Israel stuff. The reasons are :

 

*Turkey (and especially Erdogan's Turkey in the last 2-3 years) is in no moral position to criticise Israel. I think most people here know about the atrocities (killings, arrests, dismissals and various bans)  committed by Erdogan, especially against the Kurds, secularists and leftists, especially in the last 2-3 years. I think Netanyahu has rightfully pointed this out (well....yes, 'pot and kettle....' stuff).

 

*Anti-Israel demos, speeches, etc. in Turkey, sadly, often, take an anti-Semitic direction, especially with Erdogan in power. There will be a demonstration in Istanbul this Friday, called by Erdogan 2 days ago. I am 99.9999 percent sure that there will be lots of anti-Semitic speeches, slogans and banners unfortunately. I am also quite sure that people from Islamic extremist groups like Hamas and Muslim B. will attend it, and might even speak.

 

I (and most secularists) am deeply troubled by the direction Erdogan is taking my country. Our voices are mostly drowned in the media, because Erdogan and his thugs control almost all of the mainstream media. He has almost total control on other key institutions, like the judiciary, as well.

 

I am getting tired of writing this too; but again, shame on the West for still doing business with this guy and his government. For example, earlier this week, he was with T.May in London. I am sure that various business and even military deals were signed unfortunately.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

If a foreign army came and built fences around your country's  borders to block citizens from leaving, then bombed your airports to prevent citizens from flying out, then shot everyone (including fishermen) who drifted more than 2 miles offshore, I'd expect - or at least hope - the people reading this thread and other citizens would be protesting strongly and frequently.

 

And then the army of the invaders reacts by a massacre of unarmed protesters..

 

What would the reaction be if the foreign army was North Korea or Russia?

Except in this case it's Israel, so..."But Hamas...".

 

You fail to mention that the Gaza Strip was not always under the blockade, or anything related to the circumstances and reasons it is in place. As expected, other than a wholesale preemptive denial - nothing whatsoever acknowledging Hamas's role.

[farcanell]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You fail to mention that the Gaza Strip was not always under the blockade, or anything related to the circumstances and reasons it is in place. As expected, other than a wholesale preemptive denial - nothing whatsoever acknowledging Hamas's role.

Can’t be bothered chasing his actual quotation,  but he is also calling an indigenous national army of a sovereign state, (a UN member state to boot) a foreign army..... and he is also calling the army which is protecting its borders, from within its borders, an invading army.

 

fo figure.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The reason nobody is 'vilifying Egypt' is Egyptian forces have not just slaughtered 58 Palestinians and injured a further 2,500.

 

Let me know if you have trouble understanding that. 

 

 

The Egyptians razed homes in order to construct their own barrier. They've also pumped seawater to them underground tunnels used by the Hamas for smuggling goods into the Gaza Strip. 

 

Egypt–Gaza barrier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Gaza_barrier

 

2013–15 Egyptian demolition of homes and smuggling tunnels

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza–Egypt_border#2013–15_Egyptian_demolition_of_homes_and_smuggling_tunnels

 

 

For a fellow Arab country, who keeps the Palestinians under blockade, it doesn't get much criticism, and obviously not much by way of protests. Perhaps the Palestinians are aware of just how Egypt's armed and security forces deal with protestors.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Morch

[Morch]

4 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Below is a link to an interview with an Israeli human rights lawyer who points out that what Israel has done violates international law.

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/05/gaza-live-fire-a-human-rights-lawyer-on-israels-violations-of-international-law.html

 

In answer to the third question, Sfard opines that the situation could have been handled by use of non-lethal means. That may or may not be so, but I think a lawyer's take on this is not a definitive conclusion. Additionally, he claims that "the IDF and the Israeli border police have ample nonlethal tools" - whereas, Israel's State Comptroller had a differing view:

 

Israeli Watchdog Warned That Army Was Unprepared for Big Gaza Protest

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-watchdog-warned-army-was-unprepared-for-big-gaza-protest-1.5964097

 

Addressing the last question, as to which steps Israel and the Hamas should be taking now, Sfard raises some points which are similar to those aired on this topic with regard to the responsibility and accountability of the Palestinian leadership.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Morch

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

In answer to the third question, Sfard opines that the situation could have been handled by use of non-lethal means. That may or may not be so, but I think a lawyer's take on this is not a definitive conclusion. Additionally, he claims that "the IDF and the Israeli border police have ample nonlethal tools" - whereas, Israel's State Comptroller had a differing view:

 

Israeli Watchdog Warned That Army Was Unprepared for Big Gaza Protest

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-watchdog-warned-army-was-unprepared-for-big-gaza-protest-1.5964097

 

 

And if the Comptroller's view is accurate that raises the question why doesn't Israel have those tools.

[Thorgal]

12 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Lame deflection. Your original comment was general in nature:

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1038253-israeli-forces-kill-dozens-in gaza as-us-embassy-opens-in-jerusalem/?page=14&tab=comments#comment-12988410

 

The protests were initially (quite a while back) envisaged as non-partisan and peaceful - an initiative headed mainly by several non-aligned activists. By the time the show got on the road, they were sidelined, and Hamas pretty much took over both organization and the tone.

 

That you try to claim Hamas "has little or nothing to do with it" is a flat out lie. The Hamas military wing actions against Israel are not limited to rocket launches, and never were - just another pointless obfuscation.

 

 

 

And when exactly did Hamas supposedly take over during the protests?

 

Was there a specific day? 

 

What did Hamas do during these protests if you claim that they were actively involved? 

[notmyself]

Nothing like blaming the victim.

 

It should also be remembered that the state of Israel claims the entire region (promised land) is theirs and considers Gaza to be occupied land.

 

 

If this is disregarded then none of the issue make any sense which is why religious history and comparative religion must be taught at school. Take away religion and much of history makes no sense.

[Morch]

17 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

And if the Comptroller's view is accurate that raises the question why doesn't Israel have those tools.

 

I don't think there are grounds to question the accuracy of the Comptroller's report. As to why - because Israel is nowhere as organized a country as some assume, and priorities with regard to acquisitions could be different. Usually there are several such specific comptroller reports annually, dealing with various issues related to the IDF, national security and such. Not all get addressed. Like many other countries, Israel doesn't get deal with things until they hit the fan.

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think there are grounds to question the accuracy of the Comptroller's report. As to why - because Israel is nowhere as organized a country as some assume, and priorities with regard to acquisitions could be different. Usually there are several such specific comptroller reports annually, dealing with various issues related to the IDF, national security and such. Not all get addressed. Like many other countries, Israel doesn't get deal with things until they hit the fan.

So, angry protests like these recent ones are unprecedented or extremely infrequent?  But I do love the bureaucratspeak of "priorities with regard to acquisitions could be different'. A non explanation explanation if ever there was one.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

And when exactly did Hamas supposedly take over during the protests?

 

Was there a specific day? 

 

What did Hamas do during these protests if you claim that they were actively involved? 

 

I never said anything about a specific day, and I don't believe there was one.

 

Talk of the protests, in their original intended form was, to the best of my recollection, something discussed on various venues as far back as a year ago. Was more of an idea which got traction as people reacted and responded favorably.

 

The Hamas leadership was initially indifferent, as it was mostly embroiled in the failed "Palestinian reconciliation" power plays and drama. Hamas internal security bodies were about as pesky as usual, but nothing much out of the ordinary as in harassing organizers and activists.

 

The Hamas attitude began to shift when it became obvious that "Palestinian reconciliation" wasn't going nowhere, and that Abbas was bent on maintaining some of the policies adversely effecting both the economy of the Gaza Strip and the Hamas's ability to rule. I think that the actual involvement was something which began a couple of weeks before the protests began.

 

In terms of what and how - one of the main issues prior to this was spreading the word, and assuring attendance. People in Gaza are kinda weary of political activities unapproved by Hamas, so in this regard - problem solved. Suddenly it was all over local media, Hamas members and families urged to attend, public transportation provided (and even coerced to partake), tents, generators and whatnot appeared.

 

The more things advanced, the further away original organizers were sidelined, and the original message (which was a non-confrontational, non-violent ticket) made way to fiery speeches by Hamas leaders about "returning", "taking down the fence", "sacrifice", and the rest of the usual spiel.

 

To begin with there was some of the original atmosphere intended, but pretty soon, with Hamas egging people on and casualty figures mounting, the general tone changed and the Hamas set the agenda.

 

That you pretend to be ignorant of Hamas's involvement is irrelevant. Same goes for playing obtuse with regard to attacks carried out during and between the protests by Hamas.

 

If you doubt Hamas role in this or its control of the protests, ask yourself how come they stopped rather abruptly when the order was given to disperses.

[bristolboy]

21 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think there are grounds to question the accuracy of the Comptroller's report. As to why - because Israel is nowhere as organized a country as some assume, and priorities with regard to acquisitions could be different. Usually there are several such specific comptroller reports annually, dealing with various issues related to the IDF, national security and such. Not all get addressed. Like many other countries, Israel doesn't get deal with things until they hit the fan.

Clearly the the lack of preparation by the Israeli government owes more to the vagaries and mysteries of the government procurement system than it does to the increasing contempt publicly and unashamedly toward the Palestinians by various government ministers  and the the majority of Israeli citizens who support the present coalition. How could anyone be so foolish as even to think that rampant governmental hostility towards the Palestinians could be the determining factor in such a lack of preparation.

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

So, angry protests like these recent ones are unprecedented or extremely infrequent?  But I do love the bureaucratspeak of "priorities with regard to acquisitions could be different'. A non explanation explanation if ever there was one.

 

In terms of scope? I don't think there was something exactly on par. There were, obviously, the First and Second Intifadas, which saw some large crowds, but not in a sustained manner such as this. Perhaps also not as coordinated.

 

What you love or don't love is irrelevant - the fact is that armed forces have various threats to address, and various priorities. Them comptroller reports do not usually reflect or get into that. Not too clear why you see this as a "non-explanation explanation", but then I don't think you've got much of an actual point anyway.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Clearly the the lack of preparation by the Israeli government owes more to the vagaries and mysteries of the government procurement system than it does to the increasing contempt publicly and unashamedly toward the Palestinians by various government ministers  and the the majority of Israeli citizens who support the present coalition. How could anyone be so foolish as even to think that rampant governmental hostility towards the Palestinians could be the determining factor in such a lack of preparation.

 

Well, since you've already decided what's the answer, why do you bother asking? IMO, there's no contradiction. The government may have this or that reprehensible attitude, and in parallel, there could be objective threats and needs which merit higher priorities.

 

You may wish to search a few other such headlines regarding such reports, ranging on all sorts of issues - it doesn't paint a flattering picture when it comes to the government's work, or failure to address other chronic problems.

[Thorgal]

 

I never said anything about a specific day, and I don't believe there was one.

 

Talk of the protests, in their original intended form was, to the best of my recollection, something discussed on various venues as far back as a year ago. Was more of an idea which got traction as people reacted and responded favorably.

 

The Hamas leadership was initially indifferent, as it was mostly embroiled in the failed "Palestinian reconciliation" power plays and drama. Hamas internal security bodies were about as pesky as usual, but nothing much out of the ordinary as in harassing organizers and activists.

 

The Hamas attitude began to shift when it became obvious that "Palestinian reconciliation" wasn't going nowhere, and that Abbas was bent on maintaining some of the policies adversely effecting both the economy of the Gaza Strip and the Hamas's ability to rule. I think that the actual involvement was something which began a couple of weeks before the protests began.

 

In terms of what and how - one of the main issues prior to this was spreading the word, and assuring attendance. People in Gaza are kinda weary of political activities unapproved by Hamas, so in this regard - problem solved. Suddenly it was all over local media, Hamas members and families urged to attend, public transportation provided (and even coerced to partake), tents, generators and whatnot appeared.

 

The more things advanced, the further away original organizers were sidelined, and the original message (which was a non-confrontational, non-violent ticket) made way to fiery speeches by Hamas leaders about "returning", "taking down the fence", "sacrifice", and the rest of the usual spiel.

 

To begin with there was some of the original atmosphere intended, but pretty soon, with Hamas egging people on and casualty figures mounting, the general tone changed and the Hamas set the agenda.

 

That you pretend to be ignorant of Hamas's involvement is irrelevant. Same goes for playing obtuse with regard to attacks carried out during and between the protests by Hamas.

 

If you doubt Hamas role in this or its control of the protests, ask yourself how come they stopped rather abruptly when the order was given to disperses.

 Quote from source:

 

“In the interview, Liberman said: “You have to understand, there are no innocent people in the Gaza Strip. Everyone has a connection to Hamas.Everyone receives a salary from Hamas.”

“Those who are trying to challenge us at the border and breach it belong to Hamas’s military wing,” he said.”

 

Looks like a repetitive preemptive self-made license to kill...

 

https://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/There-are-no-innocents-in-Gaza-says-Israeli-defense-minister-549173

 

And euh, by the way, I prefer the straight forward narrative from Lieberman...

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app