A Different Method To Learn Thai

[ColPyat]

As much as i admire people who properly study Thai, reading and writing as well, i fear that is not for me. Sitting down at a book and learn this way was already torture for me in school, and due to a slight learning disability very difficult.

I have developed my own system of learning languages. I did learn two other languages that way to some extend (forgotten though mostly because i never use them) before i lived in Thailand. Basically it's the baby method, learn only through conversation. I feel that colloquial Thai is perfect for that method as there is comparatively little grammar, such as no verbal changes, and no plural etc. indicated in the actual words.

Basically, it means constant conversation with as many people as possible, constantly asking questions in Thai. No English translations, if possible, and definately no "tinglish". Tinglish is a trap that will be very difficult to escape, and one develops then a sufficient code with the partner, but no fluency in Thai itself.

Important is to initially never speak or memorize single words, but only complete sentences and phrases. That makes it easier to be understood, and to memorize the language as not just a word and its translation is memorized, but the social and environmental context as well. The advantages are, that one can somehow get around the tonal problems as it is easier to get the right tone if a whole sentence is spoken, and to the listener can make out the meaning, even if the wrong tone is caught, due to the context. And, straight from the beginning one starts thinking in Thai, and is not hindered by the time lag of first translating the word.

This system does need very little effort other than the will to communicate with people. A great opportunity are, for example the long taxi rides in traffic jams here in Bangkok .

Of course this system has its limitations. Real fluency will never be achieved, as this is only possible when one can read and write. The command of the tones will never be perfect. But that i feel is in daily conversation less important than it is often made out to be. Many Thais, especially the lesser educated ones, or Thais who lived a long time outside Thailand, have difficulties with the tomes as well. My wife, for example, does have huge difficulties with tones. But they still are able to hold conversations.

But even in the news you get presenters stumbling over their tones, which is at times very comical.

A distinct advantage though with this system, especially when learning Thai, is that one automatically learns the different social contexts in which what language has to be applied.

In Thailand's strict hirarchal system different words, and nearly a different language has to be applied to the different occasions, and often depend on the hirarchal position of the people who converse.

So, for example the term "mia" for wife, is alright in a lower class unformal setting, though in a formal, upper class setting this term is to be avoided when describing your wife. Then "Palaya" has to be used. In most setting i feel one can get away with the more neutral "faen".

In a lower class setting it depends very much which term you use, according to the hirarchy you want to establish. It is rarely a mistake to be on the polite side, but that puts automatically a certain distance up, which can be useful. At times you need to be closer, and quickly so, and then it is prudent to use the language of the setting.

An example how deep hirachies go, which did surprise me several years ago. Two first grade cousins, one older the other younger. The older called the younger "pi". It took quite some time of explaning until i understood the reason. The older cousin was the son of a younger brother, while the younger cousin was the daughter of an older brother. So they followed the age of their parents in their own hirarchal position, and not their own age.

There are several other such mysteries which until today i have failed to understand.

For me language is a tool of communication, and it is more than just the words and rules of grammar. Social and cultural implications, non verbal communications are at least as important, a i feel that in my system these vital parts are learned better than by books. Maybe for some my system can be incorporated in the more traditional learning methods.

And important part is also slang, swear words and such. If one wants to move in all parts of Thai society, it is highly important that at least some of that is known as well. And schools rarely teach you that, and i have met also many farang whose wifes did not teach those things to their husbands.

But, one should know when somebody is using a swear word, and when it might be appropriate to use one as well. Outside formal settings even upper class Thais delight in the use of their often very colorful swear words, slang, and innocent terms and phrases with subtle double meanings, often sexual connotations. But it is important on which occasion what can be used, and how, and what better not.

Anyhow, i stop waffling, i hope that my post is of some use here.

[billd766]

I am trying to learn the other way using a book and cassettes called Thai for beginners by (if I can mention)

Benjawan Poomsan Becker which is available at most good bookshops.

I am doing it at home on my own (and at 62) it is hard work. I can get on fairly well with speaking and I am understanding how to write, but reading really screws me up.

Every couple of days I ask for some help from my wife but for some reason she doesn't want to sit with me and teach me. Last year I made a New Years resolution to learn Thai and failed miserably.

This year I am now spending around an hour a day trying to learn.

For those who find Thai easy, I admire you but for the rest of us who struggle all I can say is keep trying every day, you will get better but it is bl**dy hard work.

[meadish_sweetball]

Good post by ColPyat with many true words. When it comes to language learning, my advice is to try many approaches.

Language consists of many different skills, and if your main goal is spoken communication, I think ColPyat's method will work better for many people who do not like formal settings - whichever way you approach it, real life communication is vital to successfully learn a language.

Some people who hardly speak any Thai at all but have good people skills and a culturally sensitive ear can still be excellent at getting things done, if this is one's primary concern. I remember a Thai friend who works for a Scandinavian multinational telling me at one time about her experience of different bosses. Her first boss was Danish, and spoke Thai quite well: well enough to use it in his working life. Still, he wasn't very popular with the staff because of his arrogant style, so the atmosphere in the workplace and the productivity were not very good during his time. The next boss was from somewhere else (can't remember which country) and did not speak a word of Thai, but everybody loved him because he had that rare ability of making every person he talked to feel special. He remembered their birthdays and gave well thought out little presents, was understanding of staff with family problems and also had a good sense of humour...

billd766:

I really admire your perseverance. One hour a day is great and you will no doubt find you have developed a lot in a year if you manage to keep it up. As for your wife, it is possible she does not know the rules you are asking about and it is embarrassing for her to admit not being able to answer your questions.

It could be a good idea to look for a professional teacher to help out with your reading - when you set up clear goals with somebody else, it could help to keep you going.

While it is definitely possible to learn without a teacher, I honestly don't think I would have had the patience to cram all the required theory on my own. Personally, I like to be in a learning setting with others, and hear different people explain and discuss the same things in their own words, and have the opportunity to feed off other people's ideas. It makes me want to struggle to be among the best, and for this reason I do not lose motivation... but that's me. We all learn differently.

[jaithai]

I have to add my agreement with meadish sweetball that trying many methods is the best way to find what works FOR YOU. And with luck, you get something out of each of them.

I, too, have started with the book method (and podcasts and CD's and Thai TV). But I have found that my native English speaking mouth just doesn't make the right shapes to form some of the sounds, especially vowel sounds. So next week I will start a few weeks in Bangkok to study with a tutor. I hope to gain some proficiency in sentence formation and pronunciation, as can only be achieved in the presence of a native Thai speaker.

[jdinasia]

There are many fine small schools about that do small group classes. They are exeptional in many ways because they allow you to learn from other people's mistakes as well as their successes.

Basic literacy is as important for anyone staying here long-term as basic speaking is. (unless you are never going to drive etc!)

[ColPyat]

Language consists of many different skills, and if your main goal is spoken communication, I think ColPyat's method will work better for many people who do not like formal settings - whichever way you approach it, real life communication is vital to successfully learn a language.

A funny effect of my method is that i simply cannot translate single Thai words, while i have not many problems in translating entire conversations almost simultanously into English (as long as they do not touch too complex, esoteric or technical matters).

When somebody though asks me what a single word means in either language, i am mostly at a loss, even though is use the particular word regularly.

And very early on i started to dream in Thai, even while my skills were still very limited. Now i regularly dream in three languages, my native tongue, English and Thai.

[ColPyat]

Basic literacy is as important for anyone staying here long-term as basic speaking is. (unless you are never going to drive etc!)

Sorry, but i disagree there.

I have been driving here for more than ten years, and never had any problem whatsoever being illiterate. I have a Thai driver's license (not bought, just passed the regular test). Many directions are in English, and when in doubt - there is always somebody around you can ask.

And i don't know any other area of life here where being illiterate poses any unbridgable problem at all. Most little problems can be solved by verbal communication.

[NaiGreg]

Basic literacy is as important for anyone staying here long-term as basic speaking is. (unless you are never going to drive etc!)

Sorry, but i disagree there.

I have been driving here for more than ten years, and never had any problem whatsoever being illiterate. I have a Thai driver's license (not bought, just passed the regular test). Many directions are in English, and when in doubt - there is always somebody around you can ask.

And i don't know any other area of life here where being illiterate poses any unbridgable problem at all. Most little problems can be solved by verbal communication.

Well, you may not agree that basic literacy is essential, but I will argue that being unable to read excludes you from the wonderful & wacky world of reading Thai signs, menus, product labels, notices and so on. Every day I am delighted by something I read in Thai, usually something that makes me smile. And you know, sometimes when you're driving in the countryside, there isn't anyone to ask!

-NG

[mbkudu]

As much as i admire people who properly study Thai, reading and writing as well, i fear that is not for me. Sitting down at a book and learn this way was already torture for me in school, and due to a slight learning disability very difficult.

I have developed my own system of learning languages. I did learn two other languages that way to some extend (forgotten though mostly because i never use them) before i lived in Thailand. Basically it's the baby method, learn only through conversation. I feel that colloquial Thai is perfect for that method as there is comparatively little grammar, such as no verbal changes, and no plural etc. indicated in the actual words.

Basically, it means constant conversation with as many people as possible, constantly asking questions in Thai. No English translations, if possible, and definately no "tinglish". Tinglish is a trap that will be very difficult to escape, and one develops then a sufficient code with the partner, but no fluency in Thai itself.

Important is to initially never speak or memorize single words, but only complete sentences and phrases. That makes it easier to be understood, and to memorize the language as not just a word and its translation is memorized, but the social and environmental context as well. The advantages are, that one can somehow get around the tonal problems as it is easier to get the right tone if a whole sentence is spoken, and to the listener can make out the meaning, even if the wrong tone is caught, due to the context. And, straight from the beginning one starts thinking in Thai, and is not hindered by the time lag of first translating the word.

This system does need very little effort other than the will to communicate with people. A great opportunity are, for example the long taxi rides in traffic jams here in Bangkok .

Of course this system has its limitations. Real fluency will never be achieved, as this is only possible when one can read and write. The command of the tones will never be perfect. But that i feel is in daily conversation less important than it is often made out to be. Many Thais, especially the lesser educated ones, or Thais who lived a long time outside Thailand, have difficulties with the tomes as well. My wife, for example, does have huge difficulties with tones. But they still are able to hold conversations.

But even in the news you get presenters stumbling over their tones, which is at times very comical.

A distinct advantage though with this system, especially when learning Thai, is that one automatically learns the different social contexts in which what language has to be applied.

In Thailand's strict hirarchal system different words, and nearly a different language has to be applied to the different occasions, and often depend on the hirarchal position of the people who converse.

So, for example the term "mia" for wife, is alright in a lower class unformal setting, though in a formal, upper class setting this term is to be avoided when describing your wife. Then "Palaya" has to be used. In most setting i feel one can get away with the more neutral "faen".

In a lower class setting it depends very much which term you use, according to the hirarchy you want to establish. It is rarely a mistake to be on the polite side, but that puts automatically a certain distance up, which can be useful. At times you need to be closer, and quickly so, and then it is prudent to use the language of the setting.

An example how deep hirachies go, which did surprise me several years ago. Two first grade cousins, one older the other younger. The older called the younger "pi". It took quite some time of explaning until i understood the reason. The older cousin was the son of a younger brother, while the younger cousin was the daughter of an older brother. So they followed the age of their parents in their own hirarchal position, and not their own age.

There are several other such mysteries which until today i have failed to understand.

For me language is a tool of communication, and it is more than just the words and rules of grammar. Social and cultural implications, non verbal communications are at least as important, a i feel that in my system these vital parts are learned better than by books. Maybe for some my system can be incorporated in the more traditional learning methods.

And important part is also slang, swear words and such. If one wants to move in all parts of Thai society, it is highly important that at least some of that is known as well. And schools rarely teach you that, and i have met also many farang whose wifes did not teach those things to their husbands.

But, one should know when somebody is using a swear word, and when it might be appropriate to use one as well. Outside formal settings even upper class Thais delight in the use of their often very colorful swear words, slang, and innocent terms and phrases with subtle double meanings, often sexual connotations. But it is important on which occasion what can be used, and how, and what better not.

Anyhow, i stop waffling, i hope that my post is of some use here.

What you have said is basically how the Rosetta Stone system works. It does work well too, however, it isn't cheap.

[sbk]

Exellent post colypat, and I have to say that it is similar to the way I learned Thai. I was fortunate to have my 4 year old nephew living right next door so we kind of learned together. Hearing his mother speak with him (slowly, clearly and enunciating the tones clearly) helped tremendously.

I have to add, my husband has a second cousin who is probably 6-7 years older than us, he calls us Pi we call him Nong. Apparently his grandfather and my husband's grandfather were brothers and my husband's grandfather was the older brother. Whew! How they keep track of all this is amazing.

Also, billd, never get someone you are in a personal relationship with teach you anything. Father, mother, wife, husband, sister, brother whatever. The teacher takes it personally when you don't learn right away and the student takes it personally when getting shouted at. I learned this valuable lesson in high school when my sister tried to tutor me in chemistry.

I have to tell you, my worst teacher is my husband, so be grateful your wife won't do it

[Silurian]

I have tried several ways/techniques to learn Thai. I have been studying for over 3 years and still feel like I am just beginning. I have used Rosetta Stone, Thai for Beginners, EuroTalk, and a variety of other software. I have studied using books, tapes, CDs and songs. I have visited numerous Thai language WEB sites. The sister-in-law has a 6 year old son that I have been trying to learn off of over the past year. I even try to watch Thai TV. For some reason, conversation eludes me. I have a real difficult time picking out words that I know in a conversation. The wife gets real frustrated at me when she believes I know the words spoken. For some reason I just can't relate the word spoken to what I hear and try to understand. The one thing I haven't tried is going to class. I think that would help a lot. I am getting real frustrated with studying and feeling that I have reach a peak and am starting to slide backward. I have a goal to be able to read a Thai newspaper and watch Thai TV. I am not sure if either will ever happen.

Oh well, back to the grade 1 books...

[ColPyat]

I have to tell you, my worst teacher is my husband, so be grateful your wife won't do it

I have learned an impressive arsenal of Thai swear words from my wife though...

I am sort of lucky, i have a knack for languages, and i am rather communicative . The first real steps beyond the basic in Thai i have of course made by having to communicate with my wife, who does not speak English. But you are right - only communicating with a partner is not the right way. Especially in Thai there are many idioms used within a partnership and not outside. And also then a sort of code develops that often has very little to do with the actual language.

I found it very helpful that i always had to ask my wife in Thai when i did not understand something, had not the option to ask for a translation. Also today, when speaking Thai and i don't understand something somebody says, i try to get that person to explain it to me, or paraphrase it, in Thai. That way i do learn automatically the context in which that is used. I found that direct translations are often not very helpful, and can not be applied the same way that direct translations from one European language to another can be applied.

The problem though is, that many expressions i would not be able to translate, but i know exactly when, how and why i have to use it in Thai without thinking about it.

[Khun Bob]

At the American Alumini collee between Gaysorn/Erawan and Silom, they beleve that listening is the most important first. For conversational Thai I tyhink this is so, despite how much you want to be able to talk to other people. This is how baby learns first, by copying what they hear other people say. This is why some Thais cannot explain the rules of thai - same as me with English - wasnt interested in grammar at school - ask me dont know - but i'm not bothered about face !

What I would like to do now is remember the thai symbols - consonants, vowels, numbers, tone marks, special symbols - i want to forget transliterations as that does not help in the longer term. Once you know the symbols, applying the tone rules is straight forward and you are remembering the thai words in thai symbols - this is very desirable !

If your the typle that likes to volunteer go to a thai infant school, offer to help/teach with english and sit in on the thai lessons of the 3-6 year olds. You may well feel the odd one out but you will pick up alot and be putting something back in as a result. You will also gain alot of respect from the community. You may even get a work permit too !

[eJai]

At the American Alumini collee between Gaysorn/Erawan and Silom, they beleve that listening is the most important first. For conversational Thai I tyhink this is so, despite how much you want to be able to talk to other people. This is how baby learns first, by copying what they hear other people say.

Totally agreeable, that's what the Pimsleur Approach's courses are promoting, that is to learn like a baby by listening repeatedly. The only difference is that being an adult, we have already acquired the learning skill through years of experience, which render us with better learning ability than a baby.

Further more, even if you can speak some of the language, it's often that a conversation is only possible when you can comprehend what the other party is saying, because the other party could be using vocabularies other than what you know, or different word order due to cultural differences. This is particularly true when dealing with a tonal language such as Thai, the tone, the pitch and even the intonation could make all the differences. You can only reproduce what you heard and understood.

So, whenever I lack the time to engage myself in passive learning such as reading or writing, I just listen to my MP3 as revisions time after time, I might even try to repeat after the speaker if the condition allowed. It helps.

I know my approach sounds rather technical, but that's the only approach I can afford as a lone learner. (I don't live in Thailand and I don't have a Thai spouse or anything related to Thai, I do it just for the sake of my interest in learning a new foreign language)

Also, billd, never get someone you are in a personal relationship with teach you anything. Father, mother, wife, husband, sister, brother whatever. The teacher takes it personally when you don't learn right away and the student takes it personally when getting shouted at. I learned this valuable lesson in high school when my sister tried to tutor me in chemistry.

I have to tell you, my worst teacher is my husband, so be grateful your wife won't do it

Well, should I consider myself a lucky one?

[Spee]

For me language is a tool of communication, and it is more than just the words and rules of grammar. Social and cultural implications, non verbal communications are at least as important, a i feel that in my system these vital parts are learned better than by books. Maybe for some my system can be incorporated in the more traditional learning methods.

Anyhow, i stop waffling, i hope that my post is of some use here.

What you have said is basically how the Rosetta Stone system works. It does work well too, however, it isn't cheap.

I've recently purchased the Rosetta Stone for Thai about 4 months ago. It's more expensive than a book or CD to be sure, but IMHO the price is not unreasonable for what it provides. It is extremely good at using the "total immersion" technique of teaching. That said, I don't think I would have found Rosetta Stone to be nearly as useful or unitimidating, if I had not had some substantial experience with and exposure to the language already. That said I really like it.

I'd also like to add one point on tones and tonality. My current teacher says to not worry so much about tones. She says that even Thai children do not focus heavily on tones until well into elementary school, and they spend about 5 or 6 years of time on them in school. She feels it is more important to first learn the alphabet and numbers, basic pronounciation, basic grammatical structure, and basic sentence formation.

I'm inclined to agree with the OP that it can take a wide variety of techniques to get it down. I would like to add that for me, the best way is to try to do 30-60 minutes every day, rather than a couple of hours straight once a week. Also, I try to keep things in perspective. From what I've read it can take 2-3 years to become semi-fluent and 4-6 or more years to become completely fluent. That helps when I get to a tough part that takes some time to comprehend.

I have learned one really interesting thing from Rosetta Stone from using the microphone to compare my speech patterns with those of a native speaker. The native Thai speech pattern is so much sharper than my typical slow-ish western mannerism. My normal "short" vowel comes out longer than a native speaker's "long" vowel, and my volume pattern is not nearly as peaked. It is even more magnified when I try to pronounce a word with a "vowel shortener" in it. As hard as I try, I sometimes still can't get the word out as quickly as a native speaker. For me, the capabiility to do this analysis by myself makes Rosetta Stone worth every penny, and will eventually help me to become not only a better speaker, but also a better listener.

[sbk]

Spee, one of the things that has helped me tremendously in speaking Thai correctly (ie without sounding like a foreigner speaking Thai) was to use a "Thai voice". Its kind of like acting, I speak Thai with a different voice than I speak English. I found that if I used my english voice to speak Thai, people had a hard time understanding me.

It feels a bit strange at first, but give it a try.

Suggestion: since you are a man, imitate a Thai man you know, its a better idea than imitating a woman

[meadish_sweetball]

I'd also like to add one point on tones and tonality. My current teacher says to not worry so much about tones. She says that even Thai children do not focus heavily on tones until well into elementary school, and they spend about 5 or 6 years of time on them in school. She feels it is more important to first learn the alphabet and numbers, basic pronounciation, basic grammatical structure, and basic sentence formation.

With all due respect for your teacher, even though they do not study tones theoretically Thai children are exposed to phonemic tones since in the womb (there is ample research showing that language acquisition starts even before birth).

As an adult second language learner of Thai, your brain is wired to a completely different system - you are programmed to show feelings with intonation, i.e. the rise and fall of voice pitch over entire utterances. As you understand, these two systems clash with each other. Unless you learn proper tones for Thai, your voice pitch will always be all over the place without regard to syllable tones, and Thais will find it extremely difficult to listen to you speaking.

Practicing tones is essential if you want to be understood. Without tone practice, you will only get so far, and what is worse, you may cement incorrect pronunciations of words, because you leave out the tones. To understand what I mean, consider the following (thanks to Chanchao):

pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie

Can you tell which word is which?

pike pikes pile piles piled pine pipe piped pipes pie pies pyre pyres pint pints pi

Would you think it was a good idea for a Thai to focus on pronouncing these correctly, even though their own system of pronunciation stops them from doing so?

Syllable length and tone go hand in hand. It is great that Rosetta Stone allows you the possibility to compare your own speech with a Thais - use it to practice tones as well, is my advice.

Too many Thais labour under the misconception that teaching tones to foreigners is futile. My experience shows it is not, except for in a few rare cases.

[Khun Bob]

I'd also like to add one point on tones and tonality. My current teacher says to not worry so much about tones. She says that even Thai children do not focus heavily on tones until well into elementary school, and they spend about 5 or 6 years of time on them in school. She feels it is more important to first learn the alphabet and numbers, basic pronounciation, basic grammatical structure, and basic sentence formation.

With all due respect for your teacher, even though they do not study tones theoretically Thai children are exposed to phonemic tones since in the womb (there is ample research showing that language acquisition starts even before birth).

As an adult second language learner of Thai, your brain is wired to a completely different system - you are programmed to show feelings with intonation, i.e. the rise and fall of voice pitch over entire utterances. As you understand, these two systems clash with each other. Unless you learn proper tones for Thai, your voice pitch will always be all over the place without regard to syllable tones, and Thais will find it extremely difficult to listen to you speaking.

Practicing tones is essential if you want to be understood. Without tone practice, you will only get so far, and what is worse, you may cement incorrect pronunciations of words, because you leave out the tones. To understand what I mean, consider the following (thanks to Chanchao):

pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie pie

Can you tell which word is which?

pike pikes pile piles piled pine pipe piped pipes pie pies pyre pyres pint pints pi

Would you think it was a good idea for a Thai to focus on pronouncing these correctly, even though their own system of pronunciation stops them from doing so?

Syllable length and tone go hand in hand. It is great that Rosetta Stone allows you the possibility to compare your own speech with a Thais - use it to practice tones as well, is my advice.

Too many Thais labour under the false misconception that teaching tones to foreigners is futile. My experience shows it is not, except for in a few rare cases.

Hi Meadish

This is very innteresting - I have Rosetta Stone but havent found anywhere that lets me compare my tones to that of Thais - could yu explain where abouts it is ?

Actually for a few months now I have thought about developing some software that does tonal comparison from w Thai learner with a natural, clear Thai speaker, so that the Thai Learner can see and experiment with their tones. I am not aware of such a prduct, but if Rosetta stone allows that I would love to play with it.

Your quite right - learning the tone rules is so important - and beofre that knowing the thai symbols is key too - this is where i am at at the moment after learning transliteration and now regretting it - I can have quite extansing conversations but no tones and it is down to the listener understanding foreigner spoken Thai - it is not real thai !

Cheers

PS your last point is so true "Too many Thais labour under the false misconception that teaching tones to foreigners is futile. My experience shows it is not, except for in a few rare cases."

Some of the latest books for foreignerls learnign thai are amateur and dont attempt to teach or even mention tones.

It would be good to have a reference audio (files) for the Thai alphabet that one could practice against with software that would visualise the spoken tone of the reference and the learner

[meadish_sweetball]

Khun Bob - if you have not been able to find such a feature in Rosetta Stone, I guess that means they did not bother with including it - a shame. (I have only played around with the demo version of Rosetta Stone once, so am not that familiar with it). Vowel length is indeed almost as crucial as tones, but it is the combination of all distinguishing features that creates clear speech.

It should be possible to develop such software quite easily - it is a matter of representing pitch curves in graphic form.

I have not seen a program that does this particularly for phonemic tones, but some software must be available, because I do remember having seen research comparing tone curves from 2nd language learners of Thai (the one I remember most clearly is from a test of native English speakers contrasted with native speakers of Chinese - I believe they were exchange students at Chiang Mai University).

If you are a software developer and reading this - perhaps this is your chance.

It would be good to have a reference audio (files) for the Thai alphabet that one could practice against with software that would visualise the spoken tone of the reference and the learner

I agree. As it is now, most software I know of means you yourself have to compare your speech with that of the Thai original - and if you do not know what features to listen for and correct, it will not work.

[ColPyat]

With all due respect for your teacher, even though they do not study tones theoretically Thai children are exposed to phonemic tones since in the womb (there is ample research showing that language acquisition starts even before birth).

Interesting about language acquisition starting before birth.

I have never consciously bothered with tones alone. I have aqcuired my tones by repeating words and sentences until i got it right. I still find it a lot easier to get tones right when speaking full sentences than single words, where most of the time i still get them wrong.

I have found though Thais having similar difficulties with tones, even educated ones. Often in the news you have presenters stumbling over tones as well, and many uneducated and illiterate Thais do make regular mistakes in their tones.

Also, Thais who have lived overseas for long, and who have mostly socialised with westerners, seem to lose their ability to pronounce tones correctly, and have to relearn them. In my occasional good language days on the phone i have initially been mistaken for a Thai who has lived overseas for long due to my tonal problems.

SBK said:

Spee, one of the things that has helped me tremendously in speaking Thai correctly (ie without sounding like a foreigner speaking Thai) was to use a "Thai voice". Its kind of like acting, I speak Thai with a different voice than I speak English. I found that if I used my english voice to speak Thai, people had a hard time understanding me.

It feels a bit strange at first, but give it a try.

Suggestion: since you are a man, imitate a Thai man you know, its a better idea than imitating a woman tongue.gif

I think though one thing one has to be careful though, especially as a man, is not to speak in a high pitched voice, which many westerners do. That has nothing to do with Thai language, and only sounds like a katoey. There are more than a few Thais who have a full bass, and do not hide it.

It's i think also a bit of a class thing. Many of the chattering classes like to sound rather cutey here, but if you listen to anybody else, Thai can be a very hard edged language which is barked out from the pit of the stomach.

[meadish_sweetball]

With all due respect for your teacher, even though they do not study tones theoretically Thai children are exposed to phonemic tones since in the womb (there is ample research showing that language acquisition starts even before birth).

Interesting about language acquisition starting before birth.

I have never consciously bothered with tones alone. I have aqcuired my tones by repeating words and sentences until i got it right. I still find it a lot easier to get tones right when speaking full sentences than single words, where most of the time i still get them wrong.

I have found though Thais having similar difficulties with tones, even educated ones. Often in the news you have presenters stumbling over tones as well, and many uneducated and illiterate Thais do make regular mistakes in their tones.

Also, Thais who have lived overseas for long, and who have mostly socialised with westerners, seem to lose their ability to pronounce tones correctly, and have to relearn them. In my occasional good language days on the phone i have initially been mistaken for a Thai who has lived overseas for long due to my tonal problems.

Your approach does work to a point for sure, but just as you also state, not quite all the way. As for Thais making tone mistakes, yes, it happens, but is not that common IME.

There is of course natural variation of the tones - in sentences, non-emphasized syllable tones are 'flattened out' into mid tones, which means that if you can produce a grammatically correct idiomatic sentence, it will be understood anyway, whereas if you utter one single monosyllabic word, there is too little information for the listener to go on in order to assess what you are saying. Also, there is a kind of intonation used in Thai as well - to do with emphasis. This means some aspects of the tone change - but never so much that it can be mistaken for another of the possible tones (except in particular exclamations like the first syllable of ต๊าย ตาย dtaay-dtaay! - Oh blasted!; ######! or emphatic reduplications like ร๊อน ร้อน rawn-rawn! (It's SOOOO hot))

Spee, one of the things that has helped me tremendously in speaking Thai correctly (ie without sounding like a foreigner speaking Thai) was to use a "Thai voice". Its kind of like acting, I speak Thai with a different voice than I speak English. I found that if I used my english voice to speak Thai, people had a hard time understanding me.

It feels a bit strange at first, but give it a try.

Suggestion: since you are a man, imitate a Thai man you know, its a better idea than imitating a woman tongue.gif

I think though one thing one has to be careful though, especially as a man, is not to speak in a high pitched voice, which many westerners do. That has nothing to do with Thai language, and only sounds like a katoey. There are more than a few Thais who have a full bass, and do not hide it.

It's i think also a bit of a class thing. Many of the chattering classes like to sound rather cutey here, but if you listen to anybody else, Thai can be a very hard edged language which is barked out from the pit of the stomach.

I'll take something of a middle ground here, and start by stressing that one eventually needs to find one's own comfortable range when speaking Thai.

When I first started out learning Thai, I was emulating all aspects of Thai speech, including those that were in fact individual speech quirks, and not required for people to understand me - among these were nasality and a 'whine' of sorts, as well as a higher voice pitch than my normal one - many Thais speak in a higher pitch than Westerners, but there are also quite a few who do not. When foreigners comment on Thai speech, they are often picking up on these three features, but none of them are actually really required.

Gradually, I came to realize many men who speak educated Standard Thai actually do not have much of the nasality, 'whine', high pitch and other quirks that I first thought were distinctive and necessary.

I also realized that by emulating these quirks too much, I sounded unnatural and conceited, even humourous - to both Thais and foreigners. So I started to experiment with dropping these features that did not feel quite natural to me, and ended up with my present accent - which is clear enough that I frequently get mistaken for a Thai over the phone, and have Thai people look at me and ask if I am a 'luuk khrueng'. I still get some things wrong though, like the distinction between vowels โ and อ in rapid speech (these vowel sounds fall within the range of one and the same phoneme in Swedish, and also in some variations of English). I can hear myself mispronouncing them, but still find it difficult to get right. But if you ask me to do them in isolation, they are perfect. Some brain wiring is very hard to reroute...

That being said - I think in the learning stages, it is not wrong to exaggerate one's mimicking - being careful to pick role models of one's own gender...

[ColPyat]

That being said - I think in the learning stages, it is not wrong to exaggerate one's mimicking - being careful to pick role models of one's own gender...

LOL, yes, one can pretty easily hear and see that.

I think it is very important to observe how Thais communicate and interact with each other, and also the different classes. Non verbal communication is essential. There are huge distinctions how different classes communicate, both in verbal and non verbal communication.

As you said, it has to come natural, and not stilted and artificial.

I doubt that i will ever reach complete fluency in Thai, regarding tones and vocabulary. My strong point though is that i can move naturally around people of most classes.

[sabaijai]

As an adult second language learner of Thai, your brain is wired to a completely different system - you are programmed to show feelings with intonation, i.e. the rise and fall of voice pitch over entire utterances. As you understand, these two systems clash with each other. Unless you learn proper tones for Thai, your voice pitch will always be all over the place without regard to syllable tones, and Thais will find it extremely difficult to listen to you speaking.

I agree with both sentiments here, first that adults don't learn language the same way babies/children do (and there is plenty of applied linguistics research to support this) and that without correct tones you will have much difficulty being understood.

My observations over the years have been that those foreigners who learn to speak Thai without learning to read usually have a pretty limited command of tones, and thus (to Thais) have a 'heavy accent', if they're not downright unintelligible.

I have three longtime foreign resident friends who basically speak tone-less Thai (not really tone-less, rather almost complete absence of correct tones) and I've noticed that the only Thais that can understand them at first utterance are those who hear them speak daily, eg their wives/girlfriends/husbands/boyfriends/colleagues. I can't understand them at all, most of the time. I also know a few exceptions, illiterates whose tones aren't so bad and who can mostly be understood. ColPyat must be one of these.

Speaking for myself, during the first four months or so I was learning Thai and hadn't yet mastered the tone system, I had a very tough time getting Thais to understand me without lots of repetition. My tones never really worked well (ie, were comprehended) until after I could read at a basic level, after about a year of hard study. It was another four years of continued study before I felt I spoke correct tones most of the time.

That said, one of the traps some foreigners fall into is over-pronouncing the tones, resulting in an overly 'sing-song' impression. I've never actually heard Thais criticise this tendency, it's just something I notice listening to foreigners speak Thai. Sometimes the tones are perfect but so exaggerated you know it's a foreigner talking even if you can't see their faces ...

As for adult literate Thais themselves having difficulty with tones, it seems relatively rare to me except in cases where there are dialectal differences. Of course Thais do stumble over vocabulary on occasion, like native speakers of any language, but it doesn't seem to be a result of imperfect tone mastery at all.

[Spee]

Khun Bob - if you have not been able to find such a feature in Rosetta Stone, I guess that means they did not bother with including it - a shame. (I have only played around with the demo version of Rosetta Stone once, so am not that familiar with it). Vowel length is indeed almost as crucial as tones, but it is the combination of all distinguishing features that creates clear speech.

It should be possible to develop such software quite easily - it is a matter of representing pitch curves in graphic form.

The Rosetta Stone application for this is a graphical x-y plot of amplitude versus time of the native speaker and the user has the ability to speak into a microphone and see his/her voice plot graphically represented below the native speaker as the words are spoken. For each word or phrase, this can be repeated as many times as the user wants.

Obviously the illustrated plot from the user is dependent upon the quality of the microphone and the computer hardware that does the analog sampling, analog to digital conversion, and digital signal processing (frequency response, dynamic range, compression algorithm, etc.). That can probably be determined pretty easily from the hardware vendor. It's difficult to know the relative sophistication of the voice processing algorithm in the RS software. It seems like a good question for their tech support group, although I suspect their answer will be that it is proprietary technology.

Regardless, in the limited work that I've done with it trying to match amplitude with time when repeating the speech, it does seem to help with getting the tonality and vowel length correct or at least nearly so. But that is just one novice's opinion.

PS for Meadish. Point taken on your earlier comment on how Thai's learn tones.

[ColPyat]

I also know a few exceptions, illiterates whose tones aren't so bad and who can mostly be understood. ColPyat must be one of these.

I believe it has a lot to do which one's native tongue is. Most Brits i have found have huge difficulties with pronounciation, especially if they have one of those dialects which have completely twisted vowels.

My native tongue has a very neutral pronounciation, and i don't speak any strong dialect at all, so for me it never was very difficult. Of course i have an accent, but generally people here do understand me easily. Sometimes i do of course make those mistakes which makes the room burst ouf laughing, when i want to say something completely innocent, and out comes something very embarrassing.

Many of the lesser educated Thais i know have problems with tones and pronounciation. My wife, for example, is one of them.

[aanon]

Many of the lesser educated Thais i know have problems with tones and pronounciation.

hi colpyat,

i noticed this comment in your last post and another one above. with respect, i'd like to disagree, and assert that native speakers of thai pick up the language of their environment very well. i have never met a thai speaker who is tone deaf in the way a person who has never encountered a tonal language can be. i have never met a thai speaker who consistently gets tones 'wrong' in the spoken language of a dialect they used their whole life (of course i'm not including written/spoken tone exceptions like เขา/เค้า). and, apart from ล/ร, i haven't met any thai speakers who have trouble pronouncing the consonants and the vowels of their own language except those with anatomical limitations.

once in a while (really quite rarely) a wrong tone can slip out. just like english speakers have slips of the tongue, lost trains of thought and spoonerisms etc. that doesn't mean speakers of either language have trouble with speaking their own language.

if we're talking about speakers of another regional dialect who are making an effort to speak central thai (to be 'officially correct', fit in in a big city or help out a farang) then naturally there can be some level of confusion between the two versions of tones etc.

and, now having written all of this, i notice sabaijai has said the same thing more succinctly in his last post!

all the best.

[katana]

I have found that sometimes when you ask a native Thai speaker what the correct tone of a particular word is (high, low, rising, siang tree, siang ehk, siang jatawa, etc), they won't actually know, but they will of course be able to pronounce that word perfectly (with its correct tone).

[Khun Bob]

All, thanks for the replies

I have played with some audio editing software and it does represent a sample over time as a graph - exactly what graph is correct i dont know. If tone is related to the audio frequency, then I would imagine it is very straightforward as it is just a case of plotting frequency (y axis in hertz) over time (x axis in mili seconds). Given there is a suitable and accurate reference for the speaker then it is just a case of repeating and experimenting. Points taken above that a learner would need to choose a suitable reference - perhaps age and gender are good starters.

To start off with being able to reproduce consonants, vowels, numbers, special symbols accurately would be good - and having the symbol shown together with the explanation is thai would be a good aid memoir. Next having tonal sample words. Next a basic vocabulary of words. Then simple sentences based on the basic vocabulary. All these being compared to the same reference speaker.

Some time ago I downloaded some tools from an American University that seemed to have done some research into the Thai language. The tools appeared to do something alog these lines. One of the problems I have listening and repeating is that I have no feedback on whether I am hearing correctly and reproducing correctly.

I would prefer to produce something that is online and could be used freely. I know this is entirely possible in Java (Programming language that is usable in many ways) - but given the requirements may make some demands on the PC being used. Howeever, I dont think that would be a great problem these days.

If I could get some respected, authentic reference audio files, then I could do some experiments with existing software and get a feeling for what is involved.

I think I will have a look to see if there is some open source audio manipulation/editing/visualisation java code available. It could be there is a product that can do the job but it just hasnt been applied to this domain yet - then again maybe it has been...

If anyone has any comments, suggestions or further info, please do post

Cheers

PS Just thought, how important is it being able to see the speaker of thai (the shape of their mouth - same way someone with hearing difficulties may be able to read what is being spoken ) in understanding thai and being able to reproduce the language ?

[davidjtayler]

There are many different ways to pick up new languages and people pick things up at different rates via different media.

Whereas someone may be very good at visually remembering words or symbols from reading others are quicker to learn from listening to native speakers either by recording or in person.

Others benefit from a combination of looking and listening ... nothing is too black and white when learning a language and whats good for the goose may be either good or not be good for the gander.

Thats the beauty of it ... we've all got a shot at it !

I learned my spoken Thai very similarly to the Colonel .. off the street so to speak.... listening and learning from native Thai speakers within Thailand and practising in every circumstance I could and as much as I could (albeit making lots of mistakes in the process).

The vocabularly came thick and fast but it took me time to learn correct sentence structure and I still make mistakes.

I found for myself the most beneficial way to learn was to mimic Thai speakers to get the tones correct and not just from one person but from many different people ... it took time but I would literally ask Thai people during conversation to repeat words or sentences and then repeat back to them to make sure I mastered it correctly.

At the same time I would write down in english phonetics how I invisiged the words or sentences so that I could practise at home ... it was funny in my first year walking round with endless scraps of paper with words and phrases and these would all go in a folder for reference when needed.

There are many different methods and this is what worked for me in my circumstance living in Thailand... I have also met people who have learnt outside of Thailand either on specific language courses or at university and speak lovely Thai ... so it's basically whats good for you is what you've gotta do !

[sabaijai]

Many of the lesser educated Thais i know have problems with tones and pronounciation.

hi colpyat,

i noticed this comment in your last post and another one above. with respect, i'd like to disagree, and assert that native speakers of thai pick up the language of their environment very well. i have never met a thai speaker who is tone deaf in the way a person who has never encountered a tonal language can be. i have never met a thai speaker who consistently gets tones 'wrong' in the spoken language of a dialect they used their whole life (of course i'm not including written/spoken tone exceptions like เขา/เค้า). and, apart from ล/ร, i haven't met any thai speakers who have trouble pronouncing the consonants and the vowels of their own language except those with anatomical limitations.

once in a while (really quite rarely) a wrong tone can slip out. just like english speakers have slips of the tongue, lost trains of thought and spoonerisms etc. that doesn't mean speakers of either language have trouble with speaking their own language.

if we're talking about speakers of another regional dialect who are making an effort to speak central thai (to be 'officially correct', fit in in a big city or help out a farang) then naturally there can be some level of confusion between the two versions of tones etc.

and, now having written all of this, i notice sabaijai has said the same thing more succinctly in his last post!

all the best.

Agree 100%, I have only very rarely heard native-Thai-speaking Thais speak tones incorrectly (that is, outside the generally acceptable range and allowing for tone sandhi, where a tone changes according to the phonological context).

I've noticed that some foreigners who have learned to speak Thai without learning to read Thai seem to have a higher opinion of the quality of their pronunciation than they perhaps ought to (I fell into this group myself, before I learned to read; it was only after I could read fairly well that I realised how 'approximate' my pronunciation really was). In fact their pronunciation almost always gives away their Thai illiteracy immediately. Especially when speaking Thai they've learned in 'chunks' or phrases, often only some of the syllables in the string will have the correct tones. They'll be generally understood because Thais get the gist of what they're saying, or guess what the incorrectly toned words mean from the context. But you can tell they can't read properly by the many missed tones and general lack of vocabulary.

Of course native speakers who are illiterate in their native language also tend to generate more errors in their speech. A sparser vocabulary is another side effect of illiteracy for both non-native and native speakers. I'm sure simply language proficiency tests will bear this out, ie, that speaking proficiency is held back by illiteracy.

Learning spoken Thai by speaking and listening seems like a completely natural way to go about it. But it will only take you so far. I'm sure many foreigners living in Thailand feel like it's far enough! Me I found it frustrating spending my first six months in Thailand unable to read most signs, so I made a concerted effort to learn to read and write properly. I don't know of any way to learn to read without using books though, so if book study isn't for you, you'll have to get friendly with illiteracy.