A Different Method To Learn Thai

[ColPyat]

Learning spoken Thai by speaking and listening seems like a completely natural way to go about it. But it will only take you so far. I'm sure many foreigners living in Thailand feel like it's far enough! Me I found it frustrating spending my first six months in Thailand unable to read most signs, so I made a concerted effort to learn to read and write properly. I don't know of any way to learn to read without using books though, so if book study isn't for you, you'll probably have to resign yourself to illiteracy!

Yes, i have already stated in my first post that there are clear limits to my method. But, i can discuss most topics in Thai, apart from some really complex ones, and those i can anyhow only discuss with people who have such a good education that they speak very good English.

Yes, i am resigned to illiteracy, but as i have already pointed out in my first post, i have a learning disability which makes it a huge effort for me to study in books.

I don't overestimate my ability of pronunciation, i do know my limits, especially with particular words. I can judge though very well how people understand me in conversations (and with my thai friends they are beyond the simple market conversations). I don't live in a farang ghetto with the occasional excursion into Thai life. Speaking Thai is a necessity of daily life, and my job.

I know many westerners who do read and write Thai very well, but they cannot pronounce Thai enough to be understood even in normal conversations. Reading and writing Thai helps tremendously, no argument with that, but it does not automatically mean that such a person is able to pronounce correctly or reaches fluency in spoken Thai.

[sabaijai]

Learning spoken Thai by speaking and listening seems like a completely natural way to go about it. But it will only take you so far. I'm sure many foreigners living in Thailand feel like it's far enough! Me I found it frustrating spending my first six months in Thailand unable to read most signs, so I made a concerted effort to learn to read and write properly. I don't know of any way to learn to read without using books though, so if book study isn't for you, you'll probably have to resign yourself to illiteracy!

I know many westerners who do read and write Thai very well, but they cannot pronounce Thai enough to be understood even in normal conversations. Reading and writing Thai helps tremendously, no argument with that, but it does not automatically mean that such a person is able to pronounce correctly or reaches fluency in spoken Thai.

Agreed, not automatic but it increases one's chances of approaching 'fluency', quite clearly from my personal experience and from observing other non-native speakers acquire Thai proficiency. In my experience this has little to do with learning styles, rather with how written Thai supports spoken Thai (even if they are, on some levels, different), structurally.

'Fluency' opens up a whole other debate (one that has been visited frequently on this subforum). It doesn't seem very useful to apply that term to proficiency as it's so open to interpretation. But I've never met an adult-learner farang who reached 'fluency' (let's say a speaking proficiency level of 4/4+ on a 5-point scale) without learning to read and write Thai. On the other hand I know quite a few adult-learner foreigners who are Thai-literate and have reached that level in spoken Thai (if not written; very few adult-learner foriegners ever go beyond 3/3+ in writing proficiency).

I also know plenty of adult-learner folk who read and write Thai OK but can't speak worth beans; most of the latter are academics. So although one can conclude that literacy doesn't guarantee proficiency, the positive correlation between literacy and speaking proficiency appears to be stronger than the correlation between illiteracy and speaking proficiency.

It sounds like you are very comfortable with your communicative skills in Thai, and that's wonderful, esp in light of the learning disability you've mentioned.

[ColPyat]

Learning spoken Thai by speaking and listening seems like a completely natural way to go about it. But it will only take you so far. I'm sure many foreigners living in Thailand feel like it's far enough! Me I found it frustrating spending my first six months in Thailand unable to read most signs, so I made a concerted effort to learn to read and write properly. I don't know of any way to learn to read without using books though, so if book study isn't for you, you'll probably have to resign yourself to illiteracy!

I know many westerners who do read and write Thai very well, but they cannot pronounce Thai enough to be understood even in normal conversations. Reading and writing Thai helps tremendously, no argument with that, but it does not automatically mean that such a person is able to pronounce correctly or reaches fluency in spoken Thai.

Agreed, not automatic but it increases one's chances of approaching 'fluency', quite clearly from my personal experience and from observing other non-native speakers acquire Thai proficiency. In my experience this has little to do with learning styles, rather with how written Thai supports spoken Thai (even if they are, on some levels, different), structurally.

'Fluency' opens up a whole other debate (one that has been visited frequently on this subforum). It doesn't seem very useful to apply that term to proficiency as it's so open to interpretation. But I've never met an adult-learner farang who reached 'fluency' (let's say a speaking proficiency level of 4/4+ on a 5-point scale) without learning to read and write Thai. On the other hand I know quite a few adult-learner foreigners who are Thai-literate and have reached that level in spoken Thai (if not written; very few adult-learner foriegners ever go beyond 3/3+ in writing proficiency).

I also know plenty of adult-learner folk who read and write Thai OK but can't speak worth beans; most of the latter are academics. So although one can conclude that literacy doesn't guarantee proficiency, the positive correlation between literacy and speaking proficiency appears to be stronger than the correlation between illiteracy and speaking proficiency.

It sounds like you are very comfortable with your communicative skills in Thai, and that's wonderful, esp in light of the learning disability you've mentioned.

I definitely agree with that.

I doubt that i have a 4 or 4+ in spoken Thai, i would put myself at 3+.

In every day conversations i am very comfortable, even if it's politics. The few things i don't get, i can easily ask to rephrase. When people are well educated, i have problems with some of the vocabulary when the more difficult subjects are discussed.

I have difficulties to understand TV news, and when somebody reads a newspaper article to me, he/she has to interpret it to me into a more common language. Which is difficult for my wife, as she herself has huge difficulties understanding the more antiquated written language. Soap operas i understand, well, until i get my narcoleptic attack or ask the wife to switch the bloody thing off.

It always depends on your conversation partner. For some people it is easy to adapt their vocabulary to mine, and then we can have conversations lasting hours without much strain on my language abilities. And, of course i have my better days, and my worse days.

The thing is also that different social classes use almost completely different languages, like being around in a slum and being around in an upper class setting is like two different countries.

I had once an interesting time with an anthropologist. He spoke much better Thai than me, especially his vocabulary was impressive, but he could not speak the sort of Thai that is spoken in the slum we both had work to do. It was much easier for me to cross the class specific language bridge than for him. I knew the jokes, the slang, the swear words, and when to apply all that.

[meadish_sweetball]

Soap operas i understand, well, until i get my narcoleptic attack or ask the wife to switch the bloody thing off.

During those rare moments of exceptional self-control, I can manage 10 minutes before attempting to devour the TV set.

[Khun Bob]

Comments anyones ? or should this be posted in anew thread ?

KB

All, thanks for the replies

I have played with some audio editing software and it does represent a sample over time as a graph - exactly what graph is correct i dont know. If tone is related to the audio frequency, then I would imagine it is very straightforward as it is just a case of plotting frequency (y axis in hertz) over time (x axis in mili seconds). Given there is a suitable and accurate reference for the speaker then it is just a case of repeating and experimenting. Points taken above that a learner would need to choose a suitable reference - perhaps age and gender are good starters.

To start off with being able to reproduce consonants, vowels, numbers, special symbols accurately would be good - and having the symbol shown together with the explanation is thai would be a good aid memoir. Next having tonal sample words. Next a basic vocabulary of words. Then simple sentences based on the basic vocabulary. All these being compared to the same reference speaker.

Some time ago I downloaded some tools from an American University that seemed to have done some research into the Thai language. The tools appeared to do something alog these lines. One of the problems I have listening and repeating is that I have no feedback on whether I am hearing correctly and reproducing correctly.

I would prefer to produce something that is online and could be used freely. I know this is entirely possible in Java (Programming language that is usable in many ways) - but given the requirements may make some demands on the PC being used. Howeever, I dont think that would be a great problem these days.

If I could get some respected, authentic reference audio files, then I could do some experiments with existing software and get a feeling for what is involved.

I think I will have a look to see if there is some open source audio manipulation/editing/visualisation java code available. It could be there is a product that can do the job but it just hasnt been applied to this domain yet - then again maybe it has been...

If anyone has any comments, suggestions or further info, please do post

Cheers

PS Just thought, how important is it being able to see the speaker of thai (the shape of their mouth - same way someone with hearing difficulties may be able to read what is being spoken ) in understanding thai and being able to reproduce the language ?

[meadish_sweetball]

A new thread seems like a good idea.

[Crow Boy]

As much as i admire people who properly study Thai, reading and writing as well, i fear that is not for me. Sitting down at a book and learn this way was already torture for me in school, and due to a slight learning disability very difficult.

When I decided that I would come back to Thailand and live here permanently I also committed to learning Thai, so bought the usual arsenal of books on How to learn Thai in only 30 days etc. I leaned the basics of hello, how much, etc and came here to live. I then went to Payap uni to learn and that helped but the thing that forced the biggest jump was to live in a household (extended) of Thais only one of whom (my then partner) could speak any English. It forced me to have to learn every minute of the day - I had never understood or appreciated how isolated and dependent you become when you are effectively deaf and mute because of language.

Now I work in a Thai company (360 employees) and speak Thai all day, my wife cannot speak English at all, and I am teaching our son English while she teaches him Thai. I can read and write but am not fluent in either but for the most part can get by.

I have to agree that learning to read and write is a great help because suddenly you see the characters and tone marks and the CORRECT pronunciation is made clear.

I am fortunate because I am surrounded by people who have overcome the natural Thainess of not picking on mistakes and they constantly correct my pronunciation and grammer.

I don't have any natural talent for language and am envious of those who do but I believe that speaking, reading, and writing Thai are the fundamental skills to surviving in this country. I don't understand how people can live here for years and not speak anything more that "Beer Chang Nung Kuat Krap"

In conclusion I think using a book is the place to start, getting a good teacher is a huge help because they will know and understand correct grammer and pronunciation, learning to read and write is the next major step but the most important of all is to PRACTICE ever day and persuade your Thai fiends and family to always correct you until you get it right.

The other big hurdle is when you start speaking in Thai to someone and they just don't expect it so their brain freezes while you start blathering on in Thai to them. Thais do not expect farung to speak Thai so it always surprises them and when you get past the rudiments of greetings always delights them.

[ColPyat]

The other big hurdle is when you start speaking in Thai to someone and they just don't expect it so their brain freezes while you start blathering on in Thai to them. Thais do not expect farung to speak Thai so it always surprises them and when you get past the rudiments of greetings always delights them.

Well, for this i have a way that gives me usually great laughs, and solves the problem. I just ask politely if the person speaks Thai.

I do have a talent for languages, and my method does work for me. But i believe it is not just about talent, but the method you use.

In the last couple of days, inspired by this discussion, i have been asking people about my tones. All have said the same thing to me, that i do clearly speak tones, make mistakes of course, but have clearly identifiable tones, and am easily understood. Today somebody said that my tones sound more colloquial Thai because i do not over pronounce them as many westerners who have studied Thai the traditional way do.

Anyhow, i did that post not because i want to show any superiority of my method, but to show that there are ways how to learn to communicate in Thai without studying the language. It goes without saying that being able to read and write Thai is a huge advantage, but not everybody can take the time, or is capable of doing that.