Thai Immigration Cracks Down On Foreign Teachers

[Bill]

The degree requirement, if true, is easily handled. Of course, it will require a little bit of money -- but the exchange rate is much better now than it has been in the past, so if you really want to stay in Thailand to teach, consider this:

A large number of educational institutions in the US and the UK offer "accredited" degrees. In order to give the impression of legitimacy, they require that you send them a CV justifying whatever degree you are requesting (BA, BS, MA, MS, PhD) -- based on work experience. If, in their opinion you qualify (and they usually outline the requirements for you ahead of time), they will (for a price), reward you with the degree you request. Furthermore, when anyone calls to verify the degree, they will confirm that you were awarded the degree. Some of the truly fly-by-night places will even award you with a degree ex post facto.

While most anyone from your home country could, with a little bit of research, figure out that such a degree was questionable, I seriously doubt the Thai authorities would be capable of such a distinction. So if they are all you need to work around, then by all means, get to Googling!

Dr. Bill

P.S. a handful of 100% legitimate universities also offer credit for experience. Typically they will not reward you with a degree for experience alone but will require that you take at least some courses and pass them before you get a degree. These institutions typically cost considerably more than their counterparts I discuss above, though they may be a viable option if you want to be 100% above board.

[ThaiGoon]

Perhaps enforcing this regulation will at least ensure that Thailand won't have brits who say, "you was, we was" teaching their proper English to Thai kids.

[beano2274]

I currently work as a teacher, have no degree but have been teaching for over 2 years here, I work in a well know institution (not saying where), the Thai teachers here have PHds in English, and teach the students English, however it is bad to say the least.

I have worked with Foreign teachers with and without degrees, and I think if the school is happy to employ the teacher without a degree then the authorities should allow this, however I do think a check of the teachers criminal record should be made, as those who are interested in the students more than the teaching should not be where they are. I also teach at a language centre and the students are happy with teachers without degrees, the parents want foreign teachers and are not bothered about degrees. The fillipinos have these certificates from schools or universities, hey to me its just the same as my A and O levels that I obtained.

I was an instructor in the Army, have worked for major Communication players in Europe, and taught the staff, as well as translated documents from English to German and the other way. I know how to teach, I am approachable to all students, I eat with them, talk to them when they have a break.

I have heard of schools now obtaining work permits saying that the foreign teacher is "a teachers assistant" is this how to get around it, I have also heard Universities asking for "Foreign Language specialists" or "Foreign language advisors" is this a way to get around the old Educational degree thing?

[beano2274]

Hey Thaigoon

Perhaps enforcing this regulation will at least ensure that Thailand won't have brits who say, "you was, we was" teaching their proper English to Thai kids.

Well remember we can say

"If I was" and "If I were"

Also for information we can use "I be" "you be" he/she/it be, they be, this is English

something that maybe some of those good degree teachers do not teach, but it is

common

[Stephen Cleary]

How come the Min. of Education doesn't start checking on Filipinos?

As the only committee member for the Min. of Ed in my province, i have learned that the Education Council's recent check-up on 1,000 foreign teachers did not include Filipinos.

I have had to recruit a lot of teachers in my time and of course i've seen a lotta dodgy certification. I can tell you one thing and that is - a lot of the Filipinos are just as phony as Caucasians.

The fake Filipinos i've known are even worse than the phony Farangs, in that they usually claim to have a degree in education!

How about a crackdown on the unqualified Filipinos?

Edited January 31, 2007 by stevesuphan

[Neeranam]

I'd like to share my experience about teaching in Thailand(over 10 years).

Generally, the best ESL teachers I saw did not have a degree.

The worst were the ones who had to get an MA in Applied Linguistics, or even PhD as no one would hire them just with a degree.

In most universities, the best lecturers had higher degrees, although there were many excellent ones teaching conversation with only a Bachelors Degree.

Teaching in Thailand(for farang) is not a career, it's a 'trade'.

The problem seems to be that in Thailand a teacher is very very very well respected. In nearly all institutions I worked in, the farang teacher was NOT respected at all, and this includes top universities.

While the university teacher in Isarn generally has a higher status than a doctor, the farang teacher is referred to with the pronoun 'mun' - go figure.

For a teacher to use fake qualifications means total disgust by the Thai authorities.

Personally, it doesn't bother me if a guy teaching in a Mattyom School uses a fake degree, as the whole thing is just a big joke.

[TukTukDriver]

If you read this article closely, it says that any foreigner working in Thailand for a year must have a degree.

Huh?

Should the words "as a teacher" be added to the first sentence?

I am sure it should say teacher, but when I applied for my work permit back in June (for a non-teaching position) I had to provide evidence of my education - including a copy of my diploma. I am sure sure if this a specific requirement for all work permit applications?

The degree is probably a way of showing you have a skill that many Thais do not have. I worked in Japan last year and even they wanted to see a degree. My co-workers without degrees had to prove their special skills in other ways.

[PeaceBlondie]

1. The article in the Pattaya News contains several mistruths, is clearly biased, and makes false assumptions. There are notable exceptions where un-degreed farang teachers have openly gotten work permits without pretending they had a degree. The meeting Friday in Pattaya at one point referred to the good police colonel speaking to representatives of 30 schools. Pattaya does not have 30 international schools.

2. The starting salary, even for a more or less well-qualified teacher of conversational English (any degree plus a TEFL cert earned in 4 or 5 weeks), is about 28K in Bangkok, no work permit for months (or forever), no benefits, no visa help. That's crap wages. We know Thai teachers who earn 31K and my buddy says his teacher wife, a Thai, earns 61K. Many Thais who finish a Thai degree in education at around 8K (which is crap wages, IF they were actually fluent in English), but they get benefits and raises. Real, over-qualified teachers at the better international schools earn over 100K per month, plus benefits.

3. Almost without exception, the Thai schools and officials CANNOT or WILL NOT check the authenticity of the degrees, or do background checks. They don't know how to, and they won't learn. They want cheap illegal alien labor - they just don't want Burmese teaching English to Thais, so they employ wetback farang, or diligent Filipinos.

4. Whilst it is extremely important to exclude criminals from classrooms (starting with criminal Thai pedophiles), it won't happen because the Thai schools and officials cannot or will not take the steps to check on the evildoers, and in some cases will turn a blind eye when it does happen. Your children are relatively safe, unless there is a Thai or farang criminal on the school campus. You won't know until it's too late.

5. You say that a farang doesn't need at least some kind of a degree to be an educator? Why do engineers, architects, nurses, etc., need degrees? Do you realize what kinds of degrees some of the (fairly hard-working, well-intentioned) Thai teachers have? But I agree with Steven, that if you're only going to teach conversational English to Thai school children, you don't need a degree. It would be enough to have a TEFL certificate, stamina, diplomacy, patience, and be a wee bit mad.

6. Houston, we have a problem. Thailand, this may be a crisis. It is impossible for Thailand to actually get well qualified teachers of English (and calculus, physics, and accounting) at less than 49,387 baht (roughly double what the rajabat instructors earn). This is a feudal, developing country where face means more than substance. There is no evidence that the English proficiency of this country will even approach the abominable speech of its deposed Ph.D. prime minister.

[Ygg]

Hi,

I will I really need a 4 year degree to get a job in Thailand (not talking about teaching)? I will have a two year degree this year. Maybe I will have to get a 4 year anyway. It may help to find a job that pays enough. I just don't know if I will be able to swing it.

Jim

[wilko]

Even the news in EL is apalling in Thailand.....no articles, mispronuciations and the stress...well they must just make it up as they go along....so get rid of all the people who actually know this and things will be OK....rite?

What's this new pronouncement they've just made on Foreign language teaching at international schools....are they banning English!?!?!?!?!

[ThaiGoon]

Hey Thaigoon

Perhaps enforcing this regulation will at least ensure that Thailand won't have brits who say, "you was, we was" teaching their proper English to Thai kids.

Well remember we can say

"If I was" and "If I were"

Also for information we can use "I be" "you be" he/she/it be, they be, this is English

something that maybe some of those good degree teachers do not teach, but it is

common

Yeah, you could say "I were" in an If clause (either type II or III, I don't remember), but you don't say "you was, we was" for something that happened in the past....which was what I meant.

By the way, if I have to guess, English is not your first language?

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks, PB- I just didn't have the heart, today...

[Mai Krap]

The Thais want young, good-looking, well-mannered, intelligent and devoted teachers. Yeah, that's reasonable enough, but, they're only willing to pay burger-flipping wages to get it. In the US, min. wage @ 6.75 comes out to just over a grand a month (6.75X8=52 X5=260 X4= $1,040) = a pretty good salary for teaching in Thailand. Not good if one has to pay off college loans or wants to save money.

Basically, Thailand is asking qualified teachers to make a sacrifice in order to teach there (and a sacrifice that doesn't really help one's career path, either), but is only going to pay them as if they are all washed-out losers who are in Thailand for ulterior purposes and couldn't care less about teaching.

And thus, they end up with a problem of having lousy, unqualified teachers.

Problem is for a qualified teacher who isn't in Thailand for the, uh, nightlife, that there may not be enough perks to compensate for the lack of pay. Compare Korea where one can save as much as a couple thousand a month and where better qualified persons can get positions that give 3 months paid vacation (not one month unpaid, as I was offered by one high school).

I'd still like to live in Thailand though. But, if I really had a choice, I might prefer flipping burgers if it pulled in the same as teaching.

Best post so far!

[beano2274]

Hey Thaigoon

Perhaps enforcing this regulation will at least ensure that Thailand won't have brits who say, "you was, we was" teaching their proper English to Thai kids.

Well remember we can say

"If I was" and "If I were"

Also for information we can use "I be" "you be" he/she/it be, they be, this is English

something that maybe some of those good degree teachers do not teach, but it is

common

Yeah, you could say "I were" in an If clause (either type II or III, I don't remember), but you don't say "you was, we was" for something that happened in the past....which was what I meant.

By the way, if I have to guess, English is not your first language?

Actually I am from Somerset, and yes that is in England and I am a YOKEL

Edited January 31, 2007 by beano2274

[ThaiGoon]

Actually I am from Somerset, and yes that is in England and I am a YOKEL

Ahh I see.

I hope you are not teaching English in Thailand then.

[ThaiGoon]

Uh Oh...I just saw that beano2274 actually has been teaching English in Thailand.

[rexall]

I think people who are comparing Thai salaries to those in the west should keep in mind that the cost of living in Thailand is also peanuts compared to, say, one in the US. It's all relative.

You hardly need to compare Thai teacher salaries & cost of living to the U.S. Japan (the provinces), Korea, Taiwan, possibly Vietnam all pay the equivalent of 70,000 baht or more for entry-level teaching positions, with substantial additional possible from free-lancing. If you can cut a deal in those countries where housing is included or subsidized, and depending upon your lifestyle, cost of living is not that different than Thailand. Japan has a well-deserved reputation for being expensive, but that only applies to Tokyo and other big metro areas. Where I lived in the south on Shikoku, cost of living was reasonable, around US$350 per month for a large, nice one-bedroom apartment. No $6 apples in the grocery stores or any of the other horror stories you hear about in Tokyo & Osaka.

Aloha,

Rex

[Ijustwannateach]

Incidentally, I'd just like to make a blanket statement that most of the teachers *I* know and work with have proper degrees, visas, and work permits, and though they are mostly not endowed with Ed. degrees they seem to be effective teachers and responsible professionals. I am aware there are many who are not, but statements to the effect that ALL teachers here are either underpaid, underqualified, insane, criminal, or perverse- are simply not true.

"Steven"

[Heng]

Arguing about the value of having a degree is pointless. Of course some folks holding degrees are quite worthless as teachers (or whatever profession). The important thing is that they are at least taking steps to *try* to screen out the non-qualified.

[rogerinthai]

This is just another excuse for kicking out as many foreigners as possible, with the old story of wanting "Quality farangs".

Quality Tourists are measured by the amount of money they spend per day (ignoring the fact that backbackers and travellers stay for much longer periods, and end up spend just as much).

Quality Investors - those who invest millions of dollars in advance (making life very hard for the small investors, that still bring in a significant amount of capital and do create many jobs).

Now Quality Teachers, well, they don't have a good way to really measure that quality, so they bring up the degrees requirement, as irrelevant as it may be. Then, mentioning pedophiles to create negative emotions, hatred towards foreigners, that's just typical demagogic manipulation. Just like that article in BKK Post that compared foreign investors who are not interested to invest by the new rules, to a tourist that refuses to take off his shoes in the Emerald Buddha Temple. Trying to play on cultural and religious sensitivities to justify the stupid rules.

The message is clear: Foreigners Out!

(and for anyone who wonders - no, I am not a native English speaker, and no, I am not a teaching anyone English. My Thai girlfriend studies English in a Thai School, from Thai teachers, and very often I find redicilous mistakes in the books she is given).

[ThaiGoon]

I think people who are comparing Thai salaries to those in the west should keep in mind that the cost of living in Thailand is also peanuts compared to, say, one in the US. It's all relative.

You hardly need to compare Thai teacher salaries & cost of living to the U.S. Japan (the provinces), Korea, Taiwan, possibly Vietnam all pay the equivalent of 70,000 baht or more for entry-level teaching positions, with substantial additional possible from free-lancing. If you can cut a deal in those countries where housing is included or subsidized, and depending upon your lifestyle, cost of living is not that different than Thailand. Japan has a well-deserved reputation for being expensive, but that only applies to Tokyo and other big metro areas. Where I lived in the south on Shikoku, cost of living was reasonable, around US$350 per month for a large, nice one-bedroom apartment. No $6 apples in the grocery stores or any of the other horror stories you hear about in Tokyo & Osaka.

Aloha,

Rex

I agree that teachers in Thailand, in general, are well underpaid. And it's one of the major problems that needs to be addressed by the goverment. But I don't think it's fair to draw comparison between what an English teacher earns in Thailand and the minimum wage in the US like someone just did earlier. The cost of living should have been taken into account too.

[HalfLife]

There are 2 major underlying problems with the education system in Thailand. Both involve corruption like so many other issues Thailand is having at the moment.

I taught in Nan, and in Nakhonayok provinces, both at government high schools. The other foreign teachers that I taught with were dedicated employees with a genuine desire to make a difference in the lives of their students. The problems we faced were entirely due to the administration policies.

Like so many other government jobs in this country there is a "performance incentive" where schools that have the highest number of students who excel on provincial and national exams, and who achieve higher test scores in grade level examinations even at the local level, are rewarded with greater financial assistance in the following year. Simply put, if you look the other way when your students cheat, allow every student to pass to the next grade level, leave the classrooms during provincial examinations, and assist them in cheating, your school will rank higher, receive more money during the following term, and a good portion of those funds will somehow make it into the hands of the administration staff.

Any efforts that I made to curb cheating in my classes was seen as counter productive to the goals of the school. When I outright refused to allow it, the test scores that I submitted were eliminated from the students files or placed on a much lower percentage when assessing their overall grade scores.

Many of the close friendships I formed with the Thai staff all admitted to us that they felt powerless, unable to change things, and afraid to speak out about these problems due to the backlash they would receive by doing so. The more time that was spent on trying to "fix" this problem, the less time was spent encouraging and focusing on providing my earnest students with the lessons and an education that they deserved.

I think anyone who cares about the future of Thailand should take a moment to sit down with a local teacher and have a conversation with them about their thoughts and feelings about the problems with the system. I am sure it will shock you to know that the English program and the Ferang teachers will not be listed as a concern, unless referring to the next semester's "cash cow" or financial goals of the school. With a foreign teacher, they can charge more per English class to cover the costs of having a Ferang... and to pad the budget of the English department...

Also, when you decide to teach in Thailand (and I must admit ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD) you do not choose this career for the fantastic pay, or financial benefits. Better pay does not equal better teachers. Finding teachers who give a crap about their students equals better teachers. As for the great concern of having undesirables teaching in local Thai schools...I would start with the man you see on the beach in Phuket with the Thai girl/boy companion with questionable legal age, or take a "tour" with a tuk-tuk driver that is aware of the places to find other Ferang undesirables among the Bangkok or any other Thai city nightlife. Why would you look to your local school's English teacher when the criminals are so readily available, easily exposed for prosecution in so many other places throughout this country?

Eyes wide shut.

[rogerinthai]

The important thing is that they are at least taking steps to *try* to screen out the non-qualified.

Better screen out the incompetent rather than the non-qualified. And how to do that? Fire 90% of the Thai English teachers. Or at least let them complete a basic English test...

Edited January 31, 2007 by rogerinthai

[Riverside]

The important thing is that they are at least taking steps to *try* to screen out the non-qualified.

Better screen out the incompetent rather than the non-qualified. And how to do that? Fire 90% of the Thai English teachers. Or at least let them complete a basic English test...

Hi All

I have a Masters Degree and a BA. I wanted to teach English. Yes they said come and work at our school. When I asked them the monthly salary they told me 40,000 baht. I told them to get stuffed. I was then introduced to a University hereabouts. They told me 50,000 baht but I must work weekends at their subsidary school. I told them to get stuffed. So now I work for a private company. Sorry but my salary is a secret.

You get what you are prepared to pay for. Pay nuts and get apes.

[PeaceBlondie]

The important thing is that they are at least taking steps to *try* to screen out the non-qualified.

As usual, Heng says it best, and with a fraction of the words. Note how he highlighted *try* and ended with Most schools will put on the face of having started to make a bold attempt, and not follow through.

[zeusbheld]

The fact we are native English speakers does not make us experts in the language.

When I am asked to teach English I draw the analogy, that I know how to drive a car, but that does not make me a good motor mechanic.

Secondly being a teacher is a special skill in communication.

I have seen many good technical guys fail utterly when asked to stand up and teach about their subject.

DEFINITELY! spot on. hurrah and huzzah.

(nothing to add, your post was so good i wanted to quote it just to repeat it!)

[rexall]

The degree requirement, if true, is easily handled. Of course, it will require a little bit of money -- but the exchange rate is much better now than it has been in the past, so if you really want to stay in Thailand to teach, consider this:

A large number of educational institutions in the US and the UK offer "accredited" degrees. In order to give the impression of legitimacy, they require that you send them a CV justifying whatever degree you are requesting (BA, BS, MA, MS, PhD) -- based on work experience. If, in their opinion you qualify (and they usually outline the requirements for you ahead of time), they will (for a price), reward you with the degree you request. Furthermore, when anyone calls to verify the degree, they will confirm that you were awarded the degree. Some of the truly fly-by-night places will even award you with a degree ex post facto.

While most anyone from your home country could, with a little bit of research, figure out that such a degree was questionable, I seriously doubt the Thai authorities would be capable of such a distinction. So if they are all you need to work around, then by all means, get to Googling!

Dr. Bill

P.S. a handful of 100% legitimate universities also offer credit for experience. Typically they will not reward you with a degree for experience alone but will require that you take at least some courses and pass them before you get a degree. These institutions typically cost considerably more than their counterparts I discuss above, though they may be a viable option if you want to be 100% above board.

There are a few legitimate programs in the U.S. that grant substantial credit for "life experience" along with CLEP exams and other non-traditional ways of obtaining credits. Antioch was one of the first. Edison college in New York (New Jersey?), and some schools affiliated with NYU (New York University). But it is not as easy as it sounds. They don't just confer credit based upon your CV. You have to write and document where and how the learning for each course you are claiming took place and establish why it is equivalent to the compareable course in a University. Then you have to have someone (your boss at the time, for example) write something confirming what you have submitted. If what you are claiming cannot be documented, it is not eligible. Finally, if that gets past your tutor, a degree committee has to agree to award the credits. It is quite rigorous and quite frankly, most people do not have the iniitiative and tenacity to see it through.

"Accredited" has a specific meaning in the U.S. It is rather inscrutible to people from the UK and other countries where accredation is the function and pervue of a central government. In the U.S. there are five regional accrediting agencies. Although not government bodies, they are nonetheless the absolute and final authority on accredation. A school--regardless of any other considerations--is either accreddited by one of these five agencies or it is not. The process of obtaining accredation is demanding, rigorous and takes years to accomplish. If your degree isn't from a school accredited by one of the five agencies, then it isn't an accredited degree. Period. True, some schools take advantage of the general ingorance of what accredation actually means and state in their literature "ACCREDITED by . . . " and then insert the name of some institution or body which has no status and is totally unrelated to the five regional agencies I mentioned earlier. It is not so much wheter a school is "accredited" (which may or may not mean anything), it is whom is it accredited by. And as I said, that is qutie specific and clear in terms of the U.S. systrem.

However, I am sure that in this day and age, there must be a database on the internet whcih lists all the accredited schools. So the process of verification (admittedly a stretch for many admin in Thailand) is a two-stage process; first to make sure the school is accredited, and then to verify that the applicant actually earned the degree s/he is claiming.

[Choscura]

Good and bad.

Good that they actually do background checks on people. Unqualified teachers makes EACH AND EVERY farang in Thailand look bad, be they tourist or teacher, qualified or not.

Of course, Thailand will find itself short of teachers if it actually does enforce this requirement. This will lead to either relaxing of standards (but hopefully looking to make sure they aren't pedophiles or otherwise undesirables) or raising pay. Both of these raise the general quality level and benefit farangdom generally through Thailand.

If the former, (the most probable, IMHO) than unqualified teachers will benefit because they will now no longer be unqualified to teach @ the jobs they are already.

if we look bad, at the very least its because of things we ourselves do. the stereotypes don't help, but those are there because of us too.

[zeusbheld]

i know bugger all about teaching english but in 20 years as programmer and manager in the computer business, i can tell you there is no correlation betweeen college degrees and ability to do a good job.

also, why do they equate not having a degree with pedophiles and criminal behavior! what's the basis for that.

steve

while in general degrees don't tell you diddly about a person's real abilities (and it's more true with programmers than most field "requiring" degrees), and true also that degrees are a crutch for managers who don't know enough about the actual work to hire intelligently based on ability, i'd have to disagree when it comes to teaching english--especially teaching english to adults.

adults learn languages differently than children. children are built to receive language; by the time you're an adult you have to leanr a language through focused effort. i don't know about other native speakers, but for americans a college degree (ANY college degree) means you have had at least two semesters of college-level english.

now let's imagine two identical twins who are both brilliant speakers and writers of english. one went to college, the other didnt. both are, for whatever reason, enthusiastic about teaching english in thailand for next to no money (get your mind out of the gutter, maybe chang's their favorite beer!) the one who went to college will at least have been exposed to methods of teaching advanced english to adults, and concepts like parts of speech, etc. this gives him a headstart on teaching english to adults. the deep structure of grammar is the same for all languages, but the details differ. most adults need some formal education in the grammatical particulars to learn a new language.

therefore, IMO, a degree requirement is more likely to lead to better teachers. it's not the same as programmers; picking up a book on teaching english is not the same as picking up a book on C++, and college-level english courses are much more relevant to teaching english than all the theoretical crap comp sci students are burdened with is to actually programming.

short version: i think it's reasonable to expect english teachers to have a college degree. (good luck to thailand attracting them, though, with what they're payin' 'em)

[Heng]

The important thing is that they are at least taking steps to *try* to screen out the non-qualified.

Better screen out the incompetent rather than the non-qualified. And how to do that? Fire 90% of the Thai English teachers. Or at least let them complete a basic English test...

I think a happier medium can be found if folks are less emotional about it all.