Reasons Not To Take Ms-vista

[Guest Reimar]

I do believe that there a lot reasons not to go with MS-Vista!

Take a look at some of this:

1. Licensing:

If you choose to purchase an upgrade version of Windows Vista to upgrade XP, you will no longer be able to use that version of XP.

Either on another system, or as a dual-boot option. The key will be invalidated, preventing activation.

From Vista’s EULA found here (PDF) :

13. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligiblefor the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from.

For many people this may not be a problem, but it’s a change from earlier

2. 10 Reasons not to take MS-Vista:

It's all too easy to get caught up in the million dollar marketing engine as we approach the consumer release of Windows Vista, so lets not forget that it isn't the second coming, and by all counts is an upgrade you can do without.

There are many lists out there on why to get Vista, so here's ours on why not to.

1. You don't actually need it -- No, think about this. Vista doesn't do anything you can't already do with XP. About the only significant shift requiring Vista is DirextX10, but as no titles support it yet and, according to John Carmack (the godfather of modern gaming) there's no need to yet either.

2. Cost $$ -- It's so blindingly obvious, most people will be blinded to it. You already have XP, and alternatives like Linux are free. If you really want to throw money away, go give it to a local charity.

3. On that note, it's outrageously overpriced -- at least in Australia. As revealed in the current APC, even after taking into account the profit margin Microsoft Australia previously applied to XP (as well as exchange rates, as you would expect), Australians are paying hundreds of dollars more for their copies than in the US. In fact, it's cheaper for Australians to buy Vista direct by mail order from the States. If you think Microsoft Australia is reaming us, vote with your wallet.

4. Upgrading hardware -- XP was demanding at release, but Vista more so. If you have an older machine that struggles with XP at the best of times, Vista is out of your ballpark unless you spend even more money to upgrade. If this is you, see point 1.

5. Driver support -- Key hardware like video and sound is crippled at the moment -- while Nvidia is working furiously to get a stable driver for the 8800 out by the 30th, there's still no SLI support for any of the Nvidia range. And thanks to the removal of hardware accelerated 3D sound in Vista, Creative's popular DirectSound based EAX no longer works at all, muting this feature for just about all gaming titles on the market today. Creative is in the process of coding a layer for its drivers to translate EAX calls to the OpenAL API which is seperate from Vista, but going by past experience with Creative drivers we won't see these any time soon.

6. Applications that don't work -- there's been plenty of coverage about applications that won't work without a vendor update. These include anti-virus, backup and security software such as those from Symantec, Sophos and ilk; CD and DVD burning tools like the suite from Nero need updated versions to work; and even basic disk management and partitioning tools such as Paragon's Hard Disk Manager are awaiting an update for Vista to be compatible. How many more will fail as Vista enters mainstream? Even Firefox has issues with Vista.

7. It's a big fat target -- with a new and untested in the global wild architecture, virus and malware authors are going to work overtime exploiting the holes Microsoft missed. In fact it's already happening. Loath though I am to use the word 'security' and 'Windows' in the same sentence, Windows XP has at least been patched to the hilt and can be used with a plethora of reasonably effective security tools that work now, without waiting for an update down the track.

8. UAC -- Oh yes, the Microsoft solution for an operating system where mutli-user was an afterthought. Sure, you can disable it, but the OS then makes it clear then that the onus is on the user for any damaging programs that got to run with permissions, rather than with Windows in the first place. If you do have it on, it is going to annoy the hel_l out of you. It pops up far too frequently, and even on a fast PC, the UAC screen takes too long to come up and disappear.

9. DRM -- And to a lesser degree TPM -- were made for the RIAAs and MPAAs of this world, and the even tighter integration of copy protection mechanisms and 'Windows Rights Management' into vista are nothing more than a liability to you, the user. This ComputerWorld piece says is succinctly: 'it's hard to sing the praises of technology designed to make life harder for its users.' As for TPM, this short animated video shows just how far the rabbit hole goes. And to think you pay for the privilege of having the use of media you purchased and own dictated by third parties, even on your own system.

10. The draconian license -- somehow, Microsoft has forgotten that it built its business from products that empowered its customers, not hampered them. Of course, we forget that Microsoft's customers aren't you and I, afterall (see point 9). Aside from the backward thinking that is licensing, and not actually owning, your software new terms with Vista include being able to transfer the license only once; half the limit compared to XP for Home Basic and Premium on how many machines can connect to yours for sharing, printing and accessing the Internet; limits on the number of devices that can use Vista's Media Center features; activation and validation governing your ability to upgrade hardware and use Windows itself; and outlawing the use of Home Basic and Premium with virtualisation software, and Ultimate only if DRM enabled content and applications aren't used. But then again, who reads these anyway?

End of copied docs!

Ok, we're not in Australia and TiT! But as I found by myself, this new version has a lot of bugs. For example take the IE7 at Vista: opening several connection windows at same time and a error occours and IE7 stops working and need to be restarted! And this with AMD 3800 and 1 GB RAM! With 3 GB Ram in this computer it isn't a problem! And much much more!

Question: How much the users need to invest to get the OS running as they should? Just only about the hardware! And what's with software??

[Ian_B]

I'm going to wait till the big DX10 games start coming out before I take the plunge with Vista

The videos of Crysis are amazing. Hellgate London looks like a winner too

Hopefully Vista SP1 will be out by then too

[nikster]

My 2c

1 - I don't need it - sure, but when has that ever stopped me from installing some software?

2 - I get a free copy through MSDN - that said, I am not installing it even though I get it for free so what's the point.

3 - Overpriced - agreed, but most ppl will get it with new hardware anyway and OEM will be a lot cheaper

4 - My PC checks out at 4.8 (out of 5) for Vista experience, so it's powerful enough. You can check before hand. Most reasonably modern systems will pass.

5, 6 - Driver, app support not a problem unless you happen to run one specific app that doesn't work or have one specific piece of hardware that doesn't work. To me it seems like HW support is just as good as for XP. MS did their homework here.

7 - Target - Vista's a big fat target, so is XP - what's the difference?

8 - UAC is unbelievably annoying. MS needs to fix. Feels like a beta product, not well thought out at all. The only choices with UAC are to go crazy or to turn it off. Main reason not to switch.

9 - DRM - is annoying but largely up to the content producers how annoying it will be in real life. I don't believe any concept that's annoying users is going to make $$$ so I also don't think this will be an issue. I will just not buy heavily DRM'd content, and will be joined by most others. DRM in Vista is DOA.

10 - Confusing licensing terms. Too complicated to get all upset about. Licenses that are too restrictive won't hold up in a court of law in most western countries, consumer protection laws make sure of that.

and my own reasons...

11 - Retrogression in user interface elements which I use daily, such as networking.

12 - Vista wants my attention all the time. I want to work. XP lets me work.

[sjaak327]

1. Licensing:

If you choose to purchase an upgrade version of Windows Vista to upgrade XP, you will no longer be able to use that version of XP.

Either on another system, or as a dual-boot option. The key will be invalidated, preventing activation.

From Vista’s EULA found here (PDF) :

13. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligiblefor the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from.

For many people this may not be a problem, but it’s a change from earlier

There is of course a simple way around this problem, I have Windows XP. Windows 2003 Server (64 bits) and Windows Vista RC1. Yesterday I purchased Vista Ultima as upgrade from XP, but I did the upgrade from Vista RC1. No problem whatsoever.

[silvero]

Apparently you don't even need to do that, you can update from the version you just bought:

To summarize the procedure. You load the Vista DVD, choose not to enter a product key when it prompts for one and continue the installation by choosing the right Vista edition. This will install a 30 day trial version of Vista. Run the setup again, this time from the now fully working Vista.

Type in your product key and choose a custom (advanced) installation when asked. This simply means that Windows Vista will be installed again on your system, this time with the right product key. Delete the windows.old directory afterwards which contains the files from the first installation.

http://www.ghacks.net/2007/01/31/make-clea...ta-update-dvds/

EDIT: But in this method how do you put in your old product key?

sjaak327 - did you have to put in the RC1 product key as part of the install or did it pick it up automatically?

[cdnvic]

Never a shortage of moaning about Windows anything.

Don't use it then.

[britmaveric]

Wonder how MS is treating volume licensing in respect to Vista? It seems like this might be way to snag a copy?

[cdnvic]

Nothing stopping you from installing a copy from your employers pool of licenses, but as they need to be activated by microsoft it won't go unnoticed by the IT people when they go to activate that same copy and can't.

[britmaveric]

Nothing stopping you from installing a copy from your employers pool of licenses, but as they need to be activated by microsoft it won't go unnoticed by the IT people when they go to activate that same copy and can't.

Thousands of computers so I dare say - it wouldn't be missed. (volume licensing uses the same key if there is one at all) Not to mention - constantly wiped and reinstalled using GHOST (built standard images) for most of the hardware.

BTW just posing a hypothetical - seriously doubt the firm is going to switch to Vista unless its a bulk buy of new computers/laptops. However like most firms - continuity is the key and they'd probably stick with XP Pro anyways.

[cdnvic]

No volume keys anymore, and those businesses that don't adopt the new licensing scheme may face audits of exactly what is installed under current licenses.

There's a huge number of firms out there that stuck with 2000 due to XP's security issues and have been limping along on old hardware waiting for Vista to be released. Dell and HP are expecting a big year.

[Guest Reimar]

As I read somewhere a few days ago, there will be a VLK (Volume Licensing Key) but for the Vista Business version only.

Microsoft can't afford to loose that much of corporate customers which they will if they not provide the VLK! Many administrators already try to push thems employers to Linux and if MS not step back a lot will move! And others will follow because if a huge amount of user change the system even others will follow because they wont stay on the side of the "looser"!

[sjaak327]

Formerly a volume licencing copy didn't need to be activated, therefore if you made a copy of such a CD. It was easy to install it at your home pc. In my workplace I install all pc's using the same MS select cd, and the same key. Nothing illigal about it, you just order a license for each pc.

With vista this has been changed, You still use one cd, but each install needs to be activated. This can be done by something called a KMS server. Each 180 days vista will be activated. Now if an office is running more then 25 pc's they can actually deploy this KMS server themseleves.

Of course there is already a downloadable KMS server, which you can use to activate your own pc, it even bypasses the 25 pc minimum. So your illigal vista copy can be activated that way.

More info on KMS http://www.microsoft.com/technet/windowsvi...an/volact1.mspx

[Khleerm]

Formerly a volume licencing copy didn't need to be activated....With vista this has been changed, You still use one cd, but each install needs to be activated. This can be done by something called a KMS server. Each 180 days vista will be activated. Now if an office is running more then 25 pc's they can actually deploy this KMS server themseleves.

There's some sharp lads at Fortune IT packaging workarounds for their shopping public. They've packaged a virtual machine image to foil this 180 day activation. I came upon it just a few weeks ago, it quite amazed me: the cleverness of their workaround.

[sjaak327]

Yep very clever indeed, and it does work, I just activated one using the prepacked VM (KMS server). But of course Microsoft already released an update which will partly undo this clever solution, so just be sure not to install KB929391.Even though I have also heard reports that once rebooted Vista activated using "spoofed KMS server" will be activated again.

[sjaak327]

Apparently you don't even need to do that, you can update from the version you just bought:

To summarize the procedure. You load the Vista DVD, choose not to enter a product key when it prompts for one and continue the installation by choosing the right Vista edition. This will install a 30 day trial version of Vista. Run the setup again, this time from the now fully working Vista.

Type in your product key and choose a custom (advanced) installation when asked. This simply means that Windows Vista will be installed again on your system, this time with the right product key. Delete the windows.old directory afterwards which contains the files from the first installation.

http://www.ghacks.net/2007/01/31/make-clea...ta-update-dvds/

EDIT: But in this method how do you put in your old product key?

sjaak327 - did you have to put in the RC1 product key as part of the install or did it pick it up automatically?

I had RC1 on my harddrive (together with XP and WIN2003) I entered the Ultimate product key, and then selected to replace RC1. If you don't put any product key, you can select the vista version, of course you should select the one you purchased, then later you can enter the product key after re-installing Vista. I preferred the RC1 "upgrade" option, since I only had to install vista once, not twice as in the workaround.

The workaround basically works the same way, it first installs Vista (in this case not RC1 but the retail version), and then you just re-install it again by entering the correct product key, of course I already had RC1 on my HD, therefore I only needed to install once, using the correct ultimate product key.

[cdnvic]

Microsoft can't afford to loose that much of corporate customers which they will if they not provide the VLK! Many administrators already try to push thems employers to Linux and if MS not step back a lot will move!

I've been hearing these empty threats for 15 years and it's just not going to happen. It costs more to retrain one person to use Linux than to buy several Windows software licences.

Plus, although open source may be "free", the support certainly isn't.

[A_Traveller]

Microsoft can't afford to loose that much of corporate customers which they will if they not provide the VLK! Many administrators already try to push thems employers to Linux and if MS not step back a lot will move!

I've been hearing these empty threats for 15 years and it's just not going to happen. It costs more to retrain one person to use Linux than to buy several Windows software licences.

Plus, although open source may be "free", the support certainly isn't.

Despite the best efforts of MS and entrenched stakeholders, the training cost issue is simply not true. Review the experience of UK police services, local government or agencies within the EU. What is a remaining problem though is the quality of the user interaction experience within *nix which Vista will now exacerbate. "I can't use this <gasp> the 'window border' is not transparent!"

There is a further irony here, in that much of the 3d elements {stack, flip, transparency, depth} which are being given such focus in the media, were operational in Project Looking Glass {Sun 2003} a java based desktop for *nix, though Sun have not productized it thus far, a pity IMHO.

One last point is that though MS work hard to tell you about the 5 years of toil to build Vista, the insider perception is that the Vista you see today is fundamentally the result of the 're-boot' of the project about 2 years ago and that much of the prior 3 years remains experimental or gathering dust.

Regards

[Jockstar]

So anyone actually bought and is using Vista? Any feedback? BTW i saw that it was selling for about AUD$189. Not sure which one that is though.

[cdnvic]

So anyone actually bought and is using Vista? Any feedback? BTW i saw that it was selling for about AUD$189. Not sure which one that is though.

I played around with the beta which seemed quite nice. Waiting on my Vista dvd from Acer at the moment.

[Jockstar]

So anyone actually bought and is using Vista? Any feedback? BTW i saw that it was selling for about AUD$189. Not sure which one that is though.

I played around with the beta which seemed quite nice. Waiting on my Vista dvd from Acer at the moment.

If i do go and buy it. Can i install Thai language from their site or will it come as an option?

[MarkBKK]

Microsoft can't afford to loose that much of corporate customers which they will if they not provide the VLK! Many administrators already try to push thems employers to Linux and if MS not step back a lot will move!

I've been hearing these empty threats for 15 years and it's just not going to happen. It costs more to retrain one person to use Linux than to buy several Windows software licences.

Plus, although open source may be "free", the support certainly isn't.

Despite the best efforts of MS and entrenched stakeholders, the training cost issue is simply not true. Review the experience of UK police services, local government or agencies within the EU. What is a remaining problem though is the quality of the user interaction experience within *nix which Vista will now exacerbate. "I can't use this <gasp> the 'window border' is not transparent!"

There is a further irony here, in that much of the 3d elements {stack, flip, transparency, depth} which are being given such focus in the media, were operational in Project Looking Glass {Sun 2003} a java based desktop for *nix, though Sun have not productized it thus far, a pity IMHO.

One last point is that though MS work hard to tell you about the 5 years of toil to build Vista, the insider perception is that the Vista you see today is fundamentally the result of the 're-boot' of the project about 2 years ago and that much of the prior 3 years remains experimental or gathering dust.

Regards

At least a couple of the features in Vista (and Project Looking Glass ... er, and OSX) look pretty similar to the NeXT OS.

[A_Traveller]

At least a couple of the features in Vista (and Project Looking Glass ... er, and OSX) look pretty similar to the NeXT OS.

And even Digital Research back in the 80's. Issue then, as always, was the power requirement to process the 3d look & feel

Regards

[Mid]

Vista Service Pack 1 is coming

[cdnvic]

So anyone actually bought and is using Vista? Any feedback? BTW i saw that it was selling for about AUD$189. Not sure which one that is though.

I played around with the beta which seemed quite nice. Waiting on my Vista dvd from Acer at the moment.

If i do go and buy it. Can i install Thai language from their site or will it come as an option?

I've always had it come bundled with XP so it should be the same in Vista.

Make sure your XP can pass a genuine check before buying an upgrade version though, otherwise you'll need to buy the full version.

[Wolfie]

Please tell me i can turn off the 'Walt Disney' Interface and make it look like Windows 2000...

If i cant, then i aint gunna install it, i hate all that flashy graphics cr@p that uses up resources unnecessarily and makes my gaming life less enjoyable.

I'll wait on SP1 - 15 years experience has taught me never to touch a MS product until SP1 is available.

So how is the driver support now? Still the same old shoddiness or have the GFX/Sound companies addressed this yet?

[cdnvic]

The Aero can be turned off easily. In fact, if you don't want it you can buy the Home Basic version that doesn't have it and save a few baht.

[Wolfie]

I was told (haven't researched it myself yet) - that i need one of the more expensive versions to give me the stuff i need.

I wanna be able to play games, GFX heavy.

I wanna be able to do some work, so need IIS/dotnet

I've a feeling that the basic home version isn't going to be able to supply me those two abilities... I was told the 'Ultimate' version was the minimum to go with...

Anyone confirm/deny this?

[cdnvic]

IIS/dotnet is included in the Home Premium edition which will support gaming just fine as it's main function is a media centre. It comes with no real business apps though so that you may have to provide yourself.

Home Basic does not have IIS/dotnet.

[MarkBKK]

I was told (haven't researched it myself yet) - that i need one of the more expensive versions to give me the stuff i need.

I wanna be able to play games, GFX heavy.

I wanna be able to do some work, so need IIS/dotnet

I've a feeling that the basic home version isn't going to be able to supply me those two abilities... I was told the 'Ultimate' version was the minimum to go with...

Anyone confirm/deny this?

The answer to all your questions (well, the Vista-related ones, not the Meaning of Liff ones) may be found at the Evil Empire's web site ...

[Valjean]

I've been using Vista for a few months now - beta to RTM. There is no way I'd go back to XP. Is the second coming? Well maybe not but there's a lot I like and I’d be very surprised if others that use it don’ t feel the same.

The search is very good. The way you can bring up a desktop search result and then use the column headers and filter is great. I have a massive number of email and documents that I need to reference. I care less and less about what folders I put things in when the search is good. And then just save the search results as a folder.

I’ve got a home network and my the domain at work. When I take my laptop back and forth there is a unified home and work logon experience. In fact the whole networking is better – the map that show the devices. Lots of things.

Maybe it’s a little thing but the whole photo experience is better. The viewing, doing quick editing in the viewer, creating movies, burn a CD. It’s all just there in a very easy and elegant way. If you’re serious about photos there is support for RAW codecs. Also in time I think the new MS photo file format will be a winner.

Explorer just works so much better. The way the address is show and how you can go up or down folders, Hard to explain but it’s one of those “small” things that I know if I went back it would drive me crazy.

In Office 2007 and Vista the way you have slider bars to scale the zoom level or the folder view in Explorer. I like this a lot.

A lot of work around performance, Superfetch, fast shutdown, Ready boost.

Some the things around mobile are good, the integrated mobility center, moving between states, off-line folders.

Something that isn’t an issue for me now but I sure wish I had when my son was growing up are the Parental Controls. If you have kids this IMHO is reason alone to upgrade today. It’s awesome.

That’s off the top of my head. I like Aero, gadgets, the look and feel. Feels cleaner and fresh to me. I’m a happy camper. I’ve also been beta and now on Office 2007 and that is a phenomenal release. There’s a little of a learning curve but what a difference. I fly through formatting, layout, etc. compared to before. Once you get the new ribbon approach it’s great.