Call for evidence: Home Office approach to charging for services

[Tony M]

Now is your chance to have your say about Home Office charging, services, etc.  The Independent Chief Inspector of Immigration is starting an inspection : 

 of the Home Office’s charging for services in respect of its asylum, immigration, nationality and customs functions.

The inspection will look at the rationale and authority for particular charges, including the amounts charged.

 

Here is the link :

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/call-for-evidence-home-office-approach-to-charging-for-services

 

 

[rasg]

I doubt it will make any difference but I will be sending an email.

 

Thanks for this.

Edited June 18, 2018 by rasg

[theoldgit]

Evidence has to be submitted by the 16 July 2018, so only four short weeks away, I suspect rasg is right when he suspects that it probably won't make any difference, but if you're going to make a submission, please don't put it off for too long.

[rasg]

The only silver lining is we have a new Home Secretary in post and he seems to be a lot more reasonable already and acts quickly than Teresa May ever was.

[rasg]

Here is my first draft contribution.

 

Dear Sir/Madam.

 

I see from your website that you are inviting people with experience of the UK visa system to submit their comments regarding the fees and how well the system works.  I sincerely hope that you take their comments on board and take a long hard look at the visa application system and its fees, and make it more realistic for applicants who want to make the UK their home due to marriage with somebody outside the EU or other genuine reasons.

 

Visa application locations

I had the temerity to fall in love with somebody from outside the EU, (Thailand) and had no idea how complex the system was just to get a visit visa for a short holiday for my, then girlfriend. I understand why there has to be a good reason to return to Thailand and learned a lot about the visa system before applying for her to come to the UK for a short holiday. The cost didn’t seem unreasonable at the time but having to travel all the way to Bangkok definitely was, when my girlfriend's family lives in the North East of Thailand.

I know that a Thai national can now apply for a visa from Chiang Mai in the North but this should be extended to other areas of Thailand so that the inconvenience and cost factor is mitigated for other Thai people.

If a couple want to be together after a visit visa, there is no obvious solution for them to spend more time together in the UK once they have used up the 180 day allocation, unless they get married. Yes, a partner visa is available but the criteria are so tight, unless they are able to spend time together in Thailand, that it is impossible to get one. Too many marriages fail between UK nationals marrying Thai nationals as the Home Office make it almost impossible for a couple to spend more than a few months together before being rushed into marriage because the visa system is so rigid.

 

Fees

I totally understand why there needs to be an earnings threshold to qualify for a Settlement visa as the UK is so expensive to live. I do not accept that the fees need to be so high for the various types of Settlement visas for the UK. This also applies to the English language tests.

My wife’s A1 English language test was £150 for a six minute test at Trinity College Hammersmith. I have to conclude that language tests are a just a gravy train for the colleges who administer these tests and I presume that the UK government takes a percentage too?  A six minute test does not warrant the exorbitant fee.

I also understand why a couple from outside the EU should have to pay a healthy sum for the privilege of living in the UK. They move here for a better way of life and much better employment prospects. What I don’t understand is why a UK national who wants to marry a non EU citizen has to pay the same fees.  

I was born in the UK and I had never been married before I met my wife who I married when I was 59. I have never had kids and have rarely had to use the healthcare system at all, yet I have huge ongoing bills for more than five years to bring my Thai wife to the UK. It is outrageous that I face a bill in excess of £10,000 when I have paid tax all of my working life and I have taken a minimal amount from the system. I quite understand that a person who has never contributed to the UK economy should pay a premium in order to come to the UK but find it hard to understand the justification for a UK citizen, who has contributed all their working life, and chooses to marry a non UK citizen.

The NHS surcharge at £200 each year is not overly expensive yet I understand there are proposals to double it. The visa fees themselves are extortionate and rise by up to 20% each year. How can this be justified?

Another big bone of contention is the fact that visa applications have to be paid in US dollars at a very advantageous rate for the Home Office which adds even more to the cost. It is nothing more than a scam to get more money from each applicant.

 

Helpline fees

There is a telephone helpline for visa applicants who need information charged at the princely sum of £1.37 for each minute. I had the misfortune to call it just over a year ago and had a bill for over £10.00. The person on the phone was unable to answer my questions. I know of many people who have used the same helpline and each time they have been subjected to the huge fees and their questions haven’t been satisfactorily answered. Yet again, this penalises people who have legitimate questions.  At the very least, the people managing the telephones should be knowledgeable about the visa system yet when the so-called helpline is unable or refuses to offer help, the person calling should not have to pay the fees. If the Government website was clearer and had more concise information there would no need to call them.

 

Charging for emails.

£5.48 fee to send an email (and expect a reply) to the Home Office about a visa application from outside the UK.  How can that be justified?

 

LITUK test

The Life in the UK test was introduced to bring down the number of applicants coming to the UK. It really is as simple as that. It has nothing whatsoever to do with living in the UK at all. The majority of people who were born and bred in the UK would be unable to pass the test. An indication surely that tells you that the test does little to help the newcomer to live in the UK. How do questions about the Romans or Hadrian’s Wall or the first curry house to open in the UK, contribute to the applicant’s knowledge of living in the UK? The test should be totally revamped to something more realistic in my opinion.

My wife has now been in the UK for three years and is doing absolutely everything possible to integrate including attending college for improve her English language skills and working in order to contribute to the UK economy. I know from my friends with Thai wives that there are many people in the same position as myself who will continue to pay the extortionate fees charged in order for their wife to stay in this country.  It is disgraceful and should be changed as a matter of urgency when reviewing the current system.

One thing I have found over the last few years is that most people in this country are totally ignorant about how the UK visa system works, the hoops that have to be jumped through and just how much somebody wanting to live in the UK has to pay. I am not simply talking about members of the public but Members of Parliament and also many journalists in the media who should know how poorly run the whole system is.

 

 

[gerryBScot]

Does anyone know if this covers the Passport Office?

[theoldgit]

1 hour ago, gerryBScot said:

Does anyone know if this covers the Passport Office?

No, a totally seperate entity.

[laislica]

I too shall be submitting my proposed thoughts:

(Any quick feedback would be greatly appreciated, I will wait for a day and then send it.)

(Cheers)

In response to your “Call for evidence: Home Office approach to charging for services”

Please email the Chief Inspector: [email protected]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/call-for-evidence-home-office-approach-to-charging-for-services

   

1.    I married a Thai lady in February 2013 and we travelled to Spain where I have lived full time since my retirement in 2000.
Sure there were hoops to jump through and some expense and it took about 5 months but she was granted a Residency ID Card which, along with her Thai passport,  allowed free travel for 5 years before it needed to be renewed (No further Visa’s or other paperwork or fees required).
There was No verbal language test,
No written language test and
No knowledge of the country tests (so no fees).
We had to pay the British Consul at Malaga €243 (for a 15 minute job) to create a sworn document in both English and Spanish to prove that we were still married and living together (the Spanish Foreign Office required this document).
2.    The UK has changed the law so that we are no longer allowed to register a foreign marriage and this is creating big problems in Spain.
To renew residency, Spain requires a current copy of the marriage certificate which could be obtained from the UK after registering the foreign marriage. We are currently in limbo and unable to renew my wife’s residents ID Card.
3.    At that time there were only two types of Visa suitable for us, a General Visitors Visa (no longer available) or a Settlement Visa.
In October 2013 My wife applied online for a general visitor’s visa to visit the UK (to meet my family and friends – a 2 week visit planned) which required a 1,200 Km round trip to Madrid to visit the British Embassy to present the supporting documents and have her fingerprints and photo taken. I think the cost was €114.
The application was refused “On the grounds of probability” that she would overstay or need funding from the UK Government, among other things.
4.    In Spain, the local Foreign Offices have fingerprint scanners and photo capabilities.

They are used during the process of issuing the Residence Card. Why does the UK not arrange for this system to be used?
It would save costly visits to the Embassy with the need for hotel accommodation etc.
5.    I am retired and have sufficient resources and pensions such that we are fully independent.
So why is there not another Visa to allow people like us to visit/stay in the UK?
When in the UK we contribute to the economy by spending our money in the local shops etc.
6.    As European Residents in Spain, we are allowed freedom of movement within the EU and we have since visited the UK for a short holiday on that basis – No Visa required!
(We were grilled at the point of entry each time to ensure that we were genuine visitors and I have no problem with that).

I am not sure what will happen after the UK leaves the EU.

 

My hope is that you will create another class of visa for retirees (and others?) who have sufficient resources so as not to be a burden on the UK Government.

I think that it is intolerable that a British Citizen is forced to live outside their country of birth because they choose to marry someone from an “Unscheduled Territory”.

 Do we have any human rights?

 

 

[bobrussell]

I fear these letters outlining perfectly justifiable gripes will go onto the grumbles pile. The process is to get views on the charging structure. 

EU law and the lack of charging structure is not relevant to UK fees either. Charges are made where people are complying with British immigration law.

I suspect that to have any impact the comments are better being short, sharp and to the point and specifically aimed at the injustice of certain charges.

Payments made in a third country currency at crazy conversion rates takes prime spot in my opinion!

[theoldgit]

Off topic post and a couple of responses removed, this thread is about the call for views on specific points not ways to circumnavigate the system.

[Sumarianson]

I too had to go through the UK visa process with my Thai GF just this month. The process is horrendous and time consuming. The stress caused in my case was extensive as I had to book and pay for flights,  hotels, shows etc in advance to be able to get good seats / rooms.

We were successful but I saw a very pretty young Thai girl at the passport collection who worked for local government, had 200000 in the bank and owned 3 properties in Thailand being refused a week's holiday visa. The system is messed up when a civil servant hired and paid for by us, lords over us in a decision that effects the personal lives very negatively of good, honest and hard working people.

Since when did we give the government and it's agents the right to make our lives miserable and we have to pay for it?

[7by7]

21 hours ago, laislica said:

I too shall be submitting my proposed thoughts:

(Any quick feedback would be greatly appreciated, I will wait for a day and then send it.)

(Cheers)

 

1) You and your wife exercised your rights under the EU Freedom of Movement Directive to live in Spain. Apart from a few procedural differences, the situation would be exactly the same for a Spaniard moving to the UK with their Thai spouse; until Brexit of course.

 

A Spaniard moving to Spain with their Thai spouse would have to satisfy the requirements of the Spanish immigration law and pay the Spanish fees. Whether they are more or less onerous than the UK's I don't know.

 

2) It has never been possible to register a foreign marriage again in the UK. This is because UK law recognises nearly all foreign marriages which are legal in the country where they took place as legal in the UK as well; the exceptions being polygamous marriages, marriages where one or both are under age and similar. All that was  possible was to deposit a one's foreign marriage certificate with the General Registry Office; though so doing had zero effect on the UK's recognition of the marriage nor it's legality in the UK. It is this expensive service which ceased on 1st January 2014. Couples who paid for this service prior to that date can still obtain a copy of their foreign marriage certificate from the GRO.

 

The Spanish requirement you speak of is a Spanish requirement, not an EU one and certainly not a UK one. As you have always been unable to register your Thai marriage in the UK, how did you manage to meet this Spanish requirement previously?

 

3) General visit visas have been combined, like most category of visit visa, into the standard visitor visa; the rules and requirements have not changed.

 

As you and your wife were living in Spain while you exercised your treaty rights in 2013, then she could have obtained a free UK EEA family permit to visit the UK; provided she was travelling with or to join you.

 

A point you acknowledge in your point 6 and have used since! It is not the fault of the British government if you were ignorant of this fact in 2013.

 

I cannot comment on her refusal as I do not know the full details, including the reasons given by the ECO for same.

 

4) Those in the UK who need to renew their biometric residence permit and therefore have their biometrics taken once more can do so at designated post offices if applying by post or at a UKVI premium service centre if applying in person.

 

5) Because pensioners, or rather their foreign partners, are already covered by existing types of visas; standard visit visa if they want to visit, settlement visa if they want to settle or, at least until Brexit, EEA family permit if, as you are, they are exercising a treaty right to live in another EEA member state

 

6) The subject of freedom of movement for UK nationals in the EU and EU nationals in the UK post Brexit is a vexed one; but nothing to do with this enquiry.

 

The subject of human rights is also outside the remit of this enquiry. But, government's of the UK and other signatories to the ECHR have successfully argued in the ECtHR that their immigration laws do not breach Article 8.

 

Indeed, nothing in your proposed letter is anything to do with this enquiry; as bobrussell says

17 hours ago, bobrussell said:

EU law and the lack of charging structure is not relevant to UK fees either. Charges are made where people are complying with British immigration law.

 

Edited June 22, 2018 by 7by7

[laislica]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

1) You and your wife exercised your rights under the EU Freedom of Movement Directive to live in Spain. Apart from a few procedural differences, the situation would be exactly the same for a Spaniard moving to the UK with their Thai spouse; until Brexit of course.

 

A Spaniard moving to Spain with their Thai spouse would have to satisfy the requirements of the Spanish immigration law and pay the Spanish fees. Whether they are more or less onerous than the UK's I don't know.

 

2) It has never been possible to register a foreign marriage again in the UK. This is because UK law recognises nearly all foreign marriages which are legal in the country where they took place as legal in the UK as well; the exceptions being polygamous marriages, marriages where one or both are under age and similar. All that was  possible was to deposit a one's foreign marriage certificate with the General Registry Office; though so doing had zero effect on the UK's recognition of the marriage nor it's legality in the UK. It is this expensive service which ceased on 1st January 2014. Couples who paid for this service prior to that date can still obtain a copy of their foreign marriage certificate from the GRO.

 

The Spanish requirement you speak of is a Spanish requirement, not an EU one and certainly not a UK one. As you have always been unable to register your Thai marriage in the UK, how did you manage to meet this Spanish requirement previously?

 

3) General visit visas have been combined, like most category of visit visa, into the standard visitor visa; the rules and requirements have not changed.

 

As you and your wife were living in Spain while you exercised your treaty rights in 2013, then she could have obtained a free UK EEA family permit to visit the UK; provided she was travelling with or to join you.

 

A point you acknowledge in your point 6 and have used since! It is not the fault of the British government if you were ignorant of this fact in 2013.

 

I cannot comment on her refusal as I do not know the full details, including the reasons given by the ECO for same.

 

4) Those in the UK who need to renew their biometric residence permit and therefore have their biometrics taken once more can do so at designated post offices if applying by post or at a UKVI premium service centre if applying in person.

 

5) Because pensioners, or rather their foreign partners, are already covered by existing types of visas; standard visit visa if they want to visit, settlement visa if they want to settle or, at least until Brexit, EEA family permit if, as you are, they are exercising a treaty right to live in another EEA member state

 

6) The subject of freedom of movement for UK nationals in the EU and EU nationals in the UK post Brexit is a vexed one; but nothing to do with this enquiry.

 

The subject of human rights is also outside the remit of this enquiry. But, government's of the UK and other signatories to the ECHR have successfully argued in the ECtHR that their immigration laws do not breach Article 8.

 

Indeed, nothing in your proposed letter is anything to do with this enquiry; as bobrussell says

 

Thanks for your commentary, I shall not send these thoughts.

 

Although it would be nice if a visa allowed a foreign spouse to settle in the UK without needing to pass all the language exams, if they are not intending to work and are fully supported by their other half's pensions etc.  Makes me wonder how the system would cope with someone with learning difficulties.....

 

as to: The Spanish requirement you speak of is a Spanish requirement, not an EU one and certainly not a UK one. As you have always been unable to register your Thai marriage in the UK, how did you manage to meet this Spanish requirement previously?

 

I did not deposit our marriage certificate because I was told that it was unnecessary.

What a mistake to make.....

 

Our marriage certificate was new and within the three month window that Spain required.

We were also required to swear oaths at the Consulate in Malaga as I mentioned.

The Spanish system is somewhat strange in that a date on a marriage certificate does not signify anything as far as I can tell.

The Consular Office in Malaga said that they have tried to get the Spanish to drop this requirement because it causes unnecessary work for the Consul, extra expense and stress for the people concerned.

The Spanish do not care.....

We have visited the Consul again and have sworn new oaths, the cost was 175 GBP which I think is excessive when considering what is actually involved.

Now we have our fingers crossed...

 

 

 

 

[simoh1490]

On 6/18/2018 at 5:57 PM, rasg said:

I doubt it will make any difference but I will be sending an email.

 

Thanks for this.

Does the £5.40 charge apply if you want them to read the email?

[7by7]

22 hours ago, laislica said:

I did not deposit our marriage certificate because I was told that it was unnecessary.

What a mistake to make.....

 

It is unnecessary, and like you and most others who married abroad, we didn't either.

 

Had you done so, all you would now be able to do is obtain a copy of your Thai marriage certificate from the GRO. How would this satisfy the Spanish any more than the original?

 

This problem has been discussed here before when the Spanish embassy in Bangkok has tried to insist on confirmation that a Thai marriage is legal in the UK.  If memory serves, a complaint to SOLVIT resulted in the embassy being told such confirmation is not required under the directive.

 

Perhaps you should make such a complaint while British citizens still can?

 

22 hours ago, laislica said:

The Spanish do not care.....

They don't; but if enough people complain to SOLVIT then the EU will make them care.

[laislica]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

It is unnecessary, and like you and most others who married abroad, we didn't either.

 

Had you done so, all you would now be able to do is obtain a copy of your Thai marriage certificate from the GRO. How would this satisfy the Spanish any more than the original?

 

This problem has been discussed here before when the Spanish embassy in Bangkok has tried to insist on confirmation that a Thai marriage is legal in the UK.  If memory serves, a complaint to SOLVIT resulted in the embassy being told such confirmation is not required under the directive.

 

Perhaps you should make such a complaint while British citizens still can?

 

They don't; but if enough people complain to SOLVIT then the EU will make them care.

 

Many thanks kind Sir.

I have made my complaint to Solvit (I didn't know about them, so many thanks).

 

 

[7by7]

For those that may be interested, my submission:-

 

Sir,

 

With regard to your enquiry, there are two areas I would like to raise points on.

 

Firstly, the level of charges.

 

When I first became interested in this subject in 2000, due to marrying a non EEA national, the visa charges were set at levels designed to recover the cost of processing. Then in, if memory serves, 2003 the then Labour government introduced a new charging regime which set the fee for most visa, leave to enter and leave to remain fees at significantly above the cost of processing and also introduced the principle of annual above inflation increases to these fees.

 

Despite their vociferous opposition to this policy at the time, the Conservatives have continued with this policy.

 

You are no doubt aware of the Table of Fees and Unit Cost – April 2018   which shows the difference between the government's own unit cost figure and the fee charged; for example the cost of processing an in UK Indefinite Leave to Remain application being £243, the fee being £2389!

 

I believe that those using a service such as this should bear the cost of that service, but the huge profits made by UKVI on the three applications required for family settlement, the initial leave to enter, further leave to remain after 30 months then indefinite leave to remain after a further 30 months, and most other application categories are completely unjustifiable in my opinion.

 

My second point is the policy of charging overseas fees in most countries in US dollars rather than Sterling, using an exchange rate very favourable to UKVI. This means that applicants are paying 5 to 8% more for their visa application than the fee laid down by Parliament.

 

When this policy was first introduced I wrote to the then Immigration Minister, and I attach the reply I received. As you can see, it is essentially meaningless waffle. Though one telling point is the attempt to blame UKVI's payment service provider; WorldPay. I contacted WorldPay at the time and they assured me that they would process payments in most currencies, certainly Sterling, and it was up to the client to choose! 

Visa fees in USD.doc

[OJAS]

On 6/21/2018 at 3:52 AM, theoldgit said:

No, a totally seperate entity.

In that case I wonder whether it is now high time for HMPO and UKVI heads to be knocked together at the Home Office, particularly since both employ VFS as their agents in Thailand. After all, if this exercise is being touted as covering Home Office charging practices, then it is only reasonable IMHO to expect it to do what it says on the tin and not confine itself to the practices of a particular section (UKVI).

 

Had this exercise embraced both HMPO and UKVI practices, a comment which I might have been tempted to make relates to the difficulties faced by those who are not holders of UK credit and debit cards in paying for their passport renewals, the use of Thai cards being hit-and-miss for this purpose. But since the reply would almost certainly be along the lines of "Nothing to do with me, guv", there is clearly little point in me bothering.

[rasg]

Nothing would ever get changed if nobody bothered...

[theoldgit]

On 6/26/2018 at 12:36 AM, OJAS said:

Had this exercise embraced both HMPO and UKVI practices, a comment which I might have been tempted to make relates to the difficulties faced by those who are not holders of UK credit and debit cards in paying for their passport renewals, the use of Thai cards being hit-and-miss for this purpose. But since the reply would almost certainly be along the lines of "Nothing to do with me, guv", there is clearly little point in me bothering.

In my submission I've mentioned the HMPO and indeed the Consular section, despite the fact that passports and visas come under different parts of the Home Office and the Consular Section of the FCO.

Years ago, when I was still in harness, I attended a meeting when Jack Straw was Shadow Home Secretay he said that when Labour came into power he would make cross government departments more joined up and even share information and procedures, of course when he did, he didn't, something I reminded him of years later, that's probably why my career went nowhere fast.

[theoldgit]

A number of forum members have advised us that they've responded to this request for evidence, and no doubt others may well have responded, but can I take the liberty of gently reminding forum all that all that submissions have to reach the ICIBI by next Monday 16th July.

[Cathy72]

I've applied in the past and the fees are exorbitant. 

worst still, I was not expecting to pay NHS surcharge when I renew as I have been working and paying tax. Another thing that disturbing, where as in the pass they gave 5years then 10years, now they giving 2.5yrs at these high cost.

If there is anyway these charges can be reduce I would be eternally grateful.