Concerns About Christian Missionaries

[sceadugenga]

Everyone can believe what they want. The Bible clearly delineates the results of those choices.

To say that it is unfair that "nice" people don't make it to heaven because they have not accepted Jesus is not valid. God gave one way to get there: Jesus Christ. No matter how "nice" someone looks to us, we are not almighty, and don't know every single thought and deed of the entire person's life to the day they died.

This is a cop out.

In my youth, I was around born again Christians all of the time. What a bunch of smug, sinful, lying, sanctimonius phoneys.

Now, I'm surrounded by Buddhists that I have known well for long periods of time and I can assure you that many of them are much better people in every regard.

Are they all going to burn in he11 forever for accepting the religion of their fathers just like the Christians did?

A loving God would never sink to this.

What annoys me is the ease with which Christians escape responsibility for their actions; a few sins during the week, confession, repentance and a quick rededication and all is well.

Sure they're genuinely repentant, only the sociopaths among us don't regret the bad things we do, but in Buddhism you have to make it up. Your sins are always there, regardless of how sorry you are, unless you accumulate enough merit to absolve them.

And another thing!

Christ specifically forbade any interference in politics by his followers. What happened to that?

[Smilodon]

Everyone can believe what they want. The Bible clearly delineates the results of those choices.

To say that it is unfair that "nice" people don't make it to heaven because they have not accepted Jesus is not valid. God gave one way to get there: Jesus Christ. No matter how "nice" someone looks to us, we are not almighty, and don't know every single thought and deed of the entire person's life to the day they died.

This is a cop out.

In my youth, I was around born again Christians all of the time. What a bunch of smug, sinful, lying, sanctimonius phoneys.

Now, I'm surrounded by Buddhists that I have known well for long periods of time and I can assure you that many of them are much better people in every regard.

Are they all going to burn in he11 forever for accepting the religion of their fathers just like the Christians did?

A loving God would never sink to this.

As I said. Believe what you want. It makes little difference to me. Use any and all Christians that have ever existed for your excuse, if you wish. Other religions lower the standard so low anyone can make it in. God set the standard at perfect so anyone could make it, as long as they had accepted Jesus. Then sent his Son to die and take the penalty for everyone so it was available. If you prefer religions that tie whatever benefits accrued therefrom to how "nice" you are, which is on a sliding scale on a person-by-person basis, with no moral absolutes, you are free to do so.

I don't get mad at anyone for spreading any belief system. Everyone is really only subscribing to what they want to believe anyway. The thousands of religions of the world that have been invented by men are just different wrappers for the same poison: going to hel_l and helping others get there. If "niceness" was the criteria for entering heaven, then where would that leave people who aren't that "nice" but do good for the world in other ways? What if a guy beats his wife, but saves children from burning buildings? How about if he slapped her once, but saved ten children? Where is the ratio acceptable enough so he slides in under the rapidly closing gate of heaven? One slap to ten lives saved? Ten slaps to one life saved? Ten slaps and a mild rebuke okay if he saves ten kids and four puppies?

No, moral absolutes are given by God, just like physical laws, and are absolute, not open to negotiation. But, as I said, you are free to choose whichever path you want to take to get wherever it is you want to get. There is only one way to know God, and that's through Jesus Christ. You don't have to believe it, subscribe to it, or like anyone who ever moved a small toe in the direction of entering a church.

As I said, if I was a doorman at a dance club, and no one was allowed to enter but those who had membership cards, and I was passing out stacks of free cards at the door, there would be people who would protest that it was discriminatory to limit access to only those who had membership cards, though I had gone to the expense of having them designed, printed, and distributed to everyone I possibly could. "But, I have met other people with membership cards, and they are creeps, so I don't want to get one. But I still want to get in."

"Sorry, only people who can get in are people who have a card. Here's a free one."

"No! I REJECT membership cards! I hate cards! My mom was raped by some guy who had a membership card!"

"While I regret that that happened, you still need one to get in."

"This is religious persecution! You are trying to ram your dance club down my throat!"

"No, you don't have to come in. You are free to do what you please. But you can't get in unless you have one."

"I don't accept that! You are prejudiced! A bigot! A loving doorman wouldn't refuse me entrance just because I refused to take a free membership card!"

"While I do love you, as that is how the Bible states we should live, it does not mean I can do anything for you, unless you have a card. Here. Have one. They are free."

"No! My grandparents were WAY nicer than all the membership card holding people I choose to remember! And they belonged to that monastery over there! So, I can get in without one!"

"No, you can't. It is impossible. Here, have a free card!"

"No! I reject your cards, your club, and YOU!"

[Smilodon]

Christ specifically forbade any interference in politics by his followers. What happened to that?

How have you twisted the Bible to read that Christ forbade any involvement in politics? Or, have you ever actually read the whole thing? Or even part of it? Does this mean you think we aren't supposed to vote? Or read newspapers?

Edited February 4, 2007 by Smilodon

[Ulysses G.]

Everyone can believe what they want. The Bible clearly delineates the results of those choices.

To say that it is unfair that "nice" people don't make it to heaven because they have not accepted Jesus is not valid. God gave one way to get there: Jesus Christ. No matter how "nice" someone looks to us, we are not almighty, and don't know every single thought and deed of the entire person's life to the day they died.

This is a cop out.

In my youth, I was around born again Christians all of the time. What a bunch of smug, sinful, lying, sanctimonius phoneys.

Now, I'm surrounded by Buddhists that I have known well for long periods of time and I can assure you that many of them are much better people in every regard.

Are they all going to burn in he11 forever for accepting the religion of their fathers just like the Christians did?

A loving God would never sink to this.

As I said. Believe what you want. It makes little difference to me.

OK, fine, but why don't you folks just drop the "Loving God" spin.

A petty, jealous tyrant is more like it.

Edited February 4, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[Smilodon]

Once again, complete and utter stereotyping and over-generalizing. Christianity is a broad religion with many different beliefs and ways of preaching the gospel. You can't lump all Christian missionaries together and say they all try to convert the same way. Some may be disrespectful to the culture they are in, yes, but that doesn't mean all are so.

It's severe folly to lump any sort of group together, ethnic, religious, etc. and condemn the whole group for the actions of a few. This is how terrorists think.

If you all understood Christianity, you would know that Jesus said to "Go into all the world" to convert others to his message. So, yeah, to say Christians should stay in their own countries would mean they are not following what their savior said.

And are all missionaries rich and drive Toyota Fortuners? Hardly. I've seen many missionaries who live on 9000 baht a month. Once again, I think some need to get a grip on reality. I think many of you don't understand Christianity.

Of course Jesus said he came to preach the gospel to the poor. The intent being to not only make available a relationship with God, but to allow God to get involved in every aspect of their lives, and turn them into people who are not poor, but abundantly supplied. The Bible, from Old Testament to New Testament brings a relationship with God, which leads to prosperity, spirit, soul, body, financially, and socially. "Beloved, I desire above all things that you may prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers."

Unlike many religions, poverty is not exalted as being some great thing in the Bible. Poverty is an enemy of all mankind. Would the girls of Thailand be flocking to the cities to be hookers if they made plenty of money otherwise? Not to anywhere near the same extent. What prevents American women from flocking to cities to be hookers, other than that it is largely illegal? It sure isn't their morals, I guarantee you that. No, it is that they have far easier access to money. Would millions around the world be starving if they were prosperous? No. Poverty is from the devil, is no mark of spiritual quality, and is a tool that Satan uses to oppress billions and make them bow to his will.

Poverty, sickness, premature death, immorality are all enemies of man, and not things sent by God to discipline people or such nonsense. If sickness or poverty was God's will, then Jesus would have gone arond casting IN devils, making the well sick, and stealing people's money.

Prosperity is not a mark of a lack of spiritual quality. To say that it is a good thing if any missionaries are poor, or a bad thing if they have nice cars and houses is ridiculous.

God is love. He wants to prosper people. And not just so they go out and spread the gospel. He prospers the people he can because he loves them. He expects Christians to use some of their prosperity to do what they can to bring his message of love to the world.

To think poverty is anything but a curse is mentally ill.

[Smilodon]

OK, fine, but why don't you folks just drop the "Loving God" spin.

A petty, jealous tyrant is more like it.

You refusing something offered for free makes the person who offers it a petty, jealous tyrant? Did you say that when you went to get your driver's license? That the government were petty, jealous tyrants because they put murderers in jail, and made you, innocent, holy NICE you actually have to get a license to drive?

No, sinners go to hel_l, no matter how nicey nice they look on the outside, and you still need Jesus, who is offered, for free, to ANYONE, to get to heaven. Offering someting for free doesn't make the person who offered it a "petty, jealous tyrant."

If it was even POSSIBLE for there to be more than one way to get to heaven, God would have said so. But, considering how easy it is to get in, through Jesus Christ, who did all the hard work for you, who needs more than one way? God isn't rejecting people from heaven any more than the moon is actively shooting down any paper airplane aimed at it. It isn't a matter of refusal, it is a matter of possiblity. You CAN'T get in without being born again, or being innocent (such as a child.) Just like a paper airplane can't make it to the moon, a sinner can't make it to heaven.

There is only one way to heaven. Jesus. Not because God is mean, pernicious, and wants to make it difficult. It's because no other way WORKS. The same reason you don't tell your kids that jumping off a cliff is the best way to reach the bottom. You don't tell them not to jump off the cliff because you want to spoil all the fun they will have in the long free fall. It's because you want to prevent them from the sudden stop at the bottom. Stairs are less fun, not as fast, and take more work. But they work. And you can be alive and in one piece when you get to the bottom.

Edited February 4, 2007 by Smilodon

[Momo8]

There is a poll in today's www.msn.com.au "Are churches right to say Jesus loves Osama?"

Right under the news about the "Iraq suicide bomber kills 135" people.Maybe God is all forgiving but Man certainly is NOT! Many things good and bad have been done in the name of "religion".If all religions preach about love and brotherhood why do we still have so many wars in the name of religion and have had for thousands of years.

Edited February 4, 2007 by Momo8

[Farma]

Does anyone have a free soapbox.

[Momo8]

That depends on what you want to preach Farma.You can borrow one from some of the over zealous posters here I'm sure.

[sceadugenga]

Christ specifically forbade any interference in politics by his followers. What happened to that?

How have you twisted the Bible to read that Christ forbade any involvement in politics? Or, have you ever actually read the whole thing? Or even part of it? Does this mean you think we aren't supposed to vote? Or read newspapers?

Ahh, Smilodon, but I stand on my right to interpret the Bible anyway I like. Render unto Ceasar.....

The same as you guys do with the verbal epilepsy you call speaking in tongues.

As a father who lost all honour when I declined to follow my daughter into the Assemblies of God I know lots of useful little quotes from the Bible.

[Ulysses G.]

Prosperity is not a mark of a lack of spiritual quality.

God is love. He wants to prosper people. And not just so they go out and spread the gospel. He prospers the people he can because he loves them. He expects Christians to use some of their prosperity to do what they can to bring his message of love to the world.

Thanks for explaning the Christian point of view in such detail.

What a load of cr*p.

[TAWP]

"I've begun worshipping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to "God" are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate."

- George Carlin: Brain Droppings

[longway]

Everyone can believe what they want. The Bible clearly delineates the results of those choices.

To say that it is unfair that "nice" people don't make it to heaven because they have not accepted Jesus is not valid. God gave one way to get there: Jesus Christ. No matter how "nice" someone looks to us, we are not almighty, and don't know every single thought and deed of the entire person's life to the day they died.

This is a cop out.

In my youth, I was around born again Christians all of the time. What a bunch of smug, sinful, lying, sanctimonius phoneys.

Now, I'm surrounded by Buddhists that I have known well for long periods of time and I can assure you that many of them are much better people in every regard.

Are they all going to burn in he11 forever for accepting the religion of their fathers just like the Christians did?

A loving God would never sink to this.

As I said. Believe what you want. It makes little difference to me. Use any and all Christians that have ever existed for your excuse, if you wish. Other religions lower the standard so low anyone can make it in. God set the standard at perfect so anyone could make it, as long as they had accepted Jesus. Then sent his Son to die and take the penalty for everyone so it was available. If you prefer religions that tie whatever benefits accrued therefrom to how "nice" you are, which is on a sliding scale on a person-by-person basis, with no moral absolutes, you are free to do so.

I don't get mad at anyone for spreading any belief system. Everyone is really only subscribing to what they want to believe anyway. The thousands of religions of the world that have been invented by men are just different wrappers for the same poison: going to hel_l and helping others get there. If "niceness" was the criteria for entering heaven, then where would that leave people who aren't that "nice" but do good for the world in other ways? What if a guy beats his wife, but saves children from burning buildings? How about if he slapped her once, but saved ten children? Where is the ratio acceptable enough so he slides in under the rapidly closing gate of heaven? One slap to ten lives saved? Ten slaps to one life saved? Ten slaps and a mild rebuke okay if he saves ten kids and four puppies?

No, moral absolutes are given by God, just like physical laws, and are absolute, not open to negotiation. But, as I said, you are free to choose whichever path you want to take to get wherever it is you want to get. There is only one way to know God, and that's through Jesus Christ. You don't have to believe it, subscribe to it, or like anyone who ever moved a small toe in the direction of entering a church.

As I said, if I was a doorman at a dance club, and no one was allowed to enter but those who had membership cards, and I was passing out stacks of free cards at the door, there would be people who would protest that it was discriminatory to limit access to only those who had membership cards, though I had gone to the expense of having them designed, printed, and distributed to everyone I possibly could. "But, I have met other people with membership cards, and they are creeps, so I don't want to get one. But I still want to get in."

"Sorry, only people who can get in are people who have a card. Here's a free one."

"No! I REJECT membership cards! I hate cards! My mom was raped by some guy who had a membership card!"

"While I regret that that happened, you still need one to get in."

"This is religious persecution! You are trying to ram your dance club down my throat!"

"No, you don't have to come in. You are free to do what you please. But you can't get in unless you have one."

"I don't accept that! You are prejudiced! A bigot! A loving doorman wouldn't refuse me entrance just because I refused to take a free membership card!"

"While I do love you, as that is how the Bible states we should live, it does not mean I can do anything for you, unless you have a card. Here. Have one. They are free."

"No! My grandparents were WAY nicer than all the membership card holding people I choose to remember! And they belonged to that monastery over there! So, I can get in without one!"

"No, you can't. It is impossible. Here, have a free card!"

"No! I reject your cards, your club, and YOU!"

religion is <deleted>.

im sorry i said that, i wont delete though as it was my first reaction to your post. there are plenty of decent people involved in christianity and all religions.

i should remember to count to 10.

Edited February 4, 2007 by longway

[Goshawk]

Everyone can believe what they want. The Bible clearly delineates the results of those choices.

To say that it is unfair that "nice" people don't make it to heaven because they have not accepted Jesus is not valid. God gave one way to get there: Jesus Christ. No matter how "nice" someone looks to us, we are not almighty, and don't know every single thought and deed of the entire person's life to the day they died.

This is a cop out.

In my youth, I was around born again Christians all of the time. What a bunch of smug, sinful, lying, sanctimonius phoneys.

Now, I'm surrounded by Buddhists that I have known well for long periods of time and I can assure you that many of them are much better people in every regard.

Are they all going to burn in he11 forever for accepting the religion of their fathers just like the Christians did?

A loving God would never sink to this.

As I said. Believe what you want. It makes little difference to me. Use any and all Christians that have ever existed for your excuse, if you wish. Other religions lower the standard so low anyone can make it in. God set the standard at perfect so anyone could make it, as long as they had accepted Jesus. Then sent his Son to die and take the penalty for everyone so it was available. If you prefer religions that tie whatever benefits accrued therefrom to how "nice" you are, which is on a sliding scale on a person-by-person basis, with no moral absolutes, you are free to do so.

I don't get mad at anyone for spreading any belief system. Everyone is really only subscribing to what they want to believe anyway. The thousands of religions of the world that have been invented by men are just different wrappers for the same poison: going to hel_l and helping others get there. If "niceness" was the criteria for entering heaven, then where would that leave people who aren't that "nice" but do good for the world in other ways? What if a guy beats his wife, but saves children from burning buildings? How about if he slapped her once, but saved ten children? Where is the ratio acceptable enough so he slides in under the rapidly closing gate of heaven? One slap to ten lives saved? Ten slaps to one life saved? Ten slaps and a mild rebuke okay if he saves ten kids and four puppies?

No, moral absolutes are given by God, just like physical laws, and are absolute, not open to negotiation. But, as I said, you are free to choose whichever path you want to take to get wherever it is you want to get. There is only one way to know God, and that's through Jesus Christ. You don't have to believe it, subscribe to it, or like anyone who ever moved a small toe in the direction of entering a church.

As I said, if I was a doorman at a dance club, and no one was allowed to enter but those who had membership cards, and I was passing out stacks of free cards at the door, there would be people who would protest that it was discriminatory to limit access to only those who had membership cards, though I had gone to the expense of having them designed, printed, and distributed to everyone I possibly could. "But, I have met other people with membership cards, and they are creeps, so I don't want to get one. But I still want to get in."

"Sorry, only people who can get in are people who have a card. Here's a free one."

"No! I REJECT membership cards! I hate cards! My mom was raped by some guy who had a membership card!"

"While I regret that that happened, you still need one to get in."

"This is religious persecution! You are trying to ram your dance club down my throat!"

"No, you don't have to come in. You are free to do what you please. But you can't get in unless you have one."

"I don't accept that! You are prejudiced! A bigot! A loving doorman wouldn't refuse me entrance just because I refused to take a free membership card!"

"While I do love you, as that is how the Bible states we should live, it does not mean I can do anything for you, unless you have a card. Here. Have one. They are free."

"No! My grandparents were WAY nicer than all the membership card holding people I choose to remember! And they belonged to that monastery over there! So, I can get in without one!"

"No, you can't. It is impossible. Here, have a free card!"

"No! I reject your cards, your club, and YOU!"

religion is <deleted>

intelligent man this

somebody pls close this thread down.. its veering way of its original course and is getting so boring now...

[longway]

intelligent man this

it takes one to know one

[toptuan]

You never seen their pamhpletes where they tell the schoolchildren that they will go to hel_l if they don't belive in Jesus!

Buddhism: If you are a bad boy/girl, then in your next life you will return as a lower form. If you continue your bad ways, your downward spiral will cause you to end up as a housefly only to be squashed by the hoof of some water buffalo. (Personally, I think "hel_l" would be the miserable life of some soi dogs or cats in Thailand--presumably someone's former dodgy aunt or uncle, according to Buddha.)

Is there really any difference?

Human beings cannot escape the inborn consciousness (some say, placed there by God) that a human being's actions (born from belief) have eternal consequences, good or bad.

Where the rubber meets the road: Put even the most adamant agnostic or athiest on this thread into a fox hole in war, and listen to the prayers! A very chilling book is Dying Words of Saints and Sinners. It reveals the thoughts and perceptions of those on the edge of the precipice between life and death. Here's a sampling:

********

"I am suffering the pangs of the damned." -- TALLEYRAND PERIGORD.

"Give me laudanum that I may not think of eternity." -- MIRABEAU.

"I am abandoned by God and man! I shall go to hel_l! O Christ! O Jesus Christ! -- VOLTAIRE.

"What blood, what murders, what evil counsels have I followed! I am lost; I see it well!" -- CHARLES IX, king of France.

"I would give worlds, if I had them, if the Age of Reason had never been published. O Lord, help me! Christ, help me! It is hel_l to be left alone!" -- TOM PAYNE.

********

One disturbing death-bed statement like that gives one pause, but a book full of them leaves one breathless. Maybe there really is something to this after-life stuff.

Edited February 4, 2007 by toptuan

[Smilodon]

Ahh, Smilodon, but I stand on my right to interpret the Bible anyway I like. Render unto Ceasar.....

To put the three words upon which you base your statement into perspective, and context:

Mark 12:

13: And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

14: And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?

15: Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.

16: And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

17: And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Note, please, that the issue at hand was whether one should pay taxes, specifically, at that moment, whether the Jews, whose country was under occupation by the Romans who were idol-worshiping heathens, and therefore despised by the Jews. What Jesus said makes it clear that paying taxes, even to a heathen government you do not agree with, is acceptable, and you are not betraying God because those to whom you pay taxes are not aligned in any way with his Word.

Financing a government you don't like of a region or country you are in with tax money is not a declaration by Jesus Christ that Christians should stay out of government. I don't know how you might have construed it that way.

However, you said rightly that you can interpret the Bible any way you want. You have your own free will. And you also retain accountability for all your decisions. Not fate, karma, luck, chance, your abusive parents or Christians who you don't approve of.

[Smilodon]

You never seen their pamhpletes where they tell the schoolchildren that they will go to hel_l if they don't belive in Jesus!

Buddhism: If you are a bad boy/girl, then in your next life you will return as a lower form. If you continue your bad ways, your downward spiral will cause you to end up as a housefly only to be squashed by the hoof of some water buffalo. (Personally, I think "hel_l" would be the miserable life of some soi dogs or cats in Thailand--presumably someone's former dodgy aunt or uncle, according to Buddha.)

Is there really any difference?

Human beings cannot escape the inborn consciousness (some say, placed there by God) that a human being's actions (born from belief) have eternal consequences, good or bad.

I agree. People, unlike animals, plants, or inanimate things, have a spirit. In addition to a soul. And a body. Animals are soul and body, plants are just body. Which is why it is a sin to murder a man, sick to enjoy hurting animals for no reason, and plants or inanimate things you can do with pretty well what you please. There is no such crime as "herbicide."

Spirit beings, namely God, man, angels (of which demons are the same species, but chose opposite orientation), have moral responsibility. Animals don't. Soul=mind, will, and emotions, and in humans is linked, forever to their spirit, which never ceases to exist. In animals, it is linked to their physical body, so when they die, their soul ceases to exist. Plants have no mind, will, or emotions, just a body.

Instincts are pre-programmed things innate in all animate things or beings. With people, it is limited to a few things, such as: sucking reflex (for newborns to feed) and an aversion to heights. Babies who are allowed to crawl about on a surface that has a clear covering over a deep depression bordered by a normal floor and is lit from beneath to eliminate the possibility of reflections on the clear (glass or plastic) cover so that it appears to be a place to fall avoid crawling over the edge. Babies, (like some men past the age of 40 ) have a negative reaction to loud noises. Animals come with a lot more of what they need to survive already programmed into them, and the lower the animal form, the less they have to learn, and the less emotional they are, and the less mentally sophisticated they are. Mountain gorillas, for example, would die very quickly without their mother and social group, whereas roaches squirm out of the ol' case without any need of lessons on how to be roaches.

Not really an point, other than it is why people have a conscience, and animals don't. Animals don't stand trial for murder, rape, bad fashion sense, anything because they have no spirit. Soul, yes. Spirit, no. The two are not the same.

[sbk]

You never seen their pamhpletes where they tell the schoolchildren that they will go to hel_l if they don't belive in Jesus!

Buddhism: If you are a bad boy/girl, then in your next life you will return as a lower form. If you continue your bad ways, your downward spiral will cause you to end up as a housefly only to be squashed by the hoof of some water buffalo. (Personally, I think "hel_l" would be the miserable life of some soi dogs or cats in Thailand--presumably someone's former dodgy aunt or uncle, according to Buddha.)

Is there really any difference?

Human beings cannot escape the inborn consciousness (some say, placed there by God) that a human being's actions (born from belief) have eternal consequences, good or bad.

Where the rubber meets the road: Put even the most adamant agnostic or athiest on this thread into a fox hole in war, and listen to the prayers! A very chilling book is Dying Words of Saints and Sinners. It reveals the thoughts and perceptions of those on the edge of the precipice between life and death. Here's a sampling:

********

"I am suffering the pangs of the damned." -- TALLEYRAND PERIGORD.

"Give me laudanum that I may not think of eternity." -- MIRABEAU.

"I am abandoned by God and man! I shall go to hel_l! O Christ! O Jesus Christ! -- VOLTAIRE.

"What blood, what murders, what evil counsels have I followed! I am lost; I see it well!" -- CHARLES IX, king of France.

"I would give worlds, if I had them, if the Age of Reason had never been published. O Lord, help me! Christ, help me! It is hel_l to be left alone!" -- TOM PAYNE.

********

One disturbing death-bed statement like that gives one pause, but a book full of them leaves one breathless. Maybe there really is something to this after-life stuff.

I see you posted the dying words of the "sinners", however Nearly all of them (minus the king of course, who had his own sins to worry about) are Age of Reason thinkers, many of whom denied the ascendancy of God as preached at the time. So, in all likelihood, these are more likely last minute recantings just in case there really was a god and a heaven and hel_l.

[PeaceBlondie]

Those of us who have NOT been harmed by Christianity need to realize how many children and adults were terrible harmed by its false practices. Non-believers in many cases have "darn good reasons" to hate Christianity. And it isn't enough to just say, "Oh I'm sorry the priest raped you" or "Just get on with your life as if it never happened." The most terrible sins have been committed in Christ's name, and church history is hideous.

I discovered this morning that one of the local parish priests is - gasp - both a missionary and a Jesuit! I told him that Jesuits were the best missionaries I ever met (and I'm Protestant). They take vows of poverty, get lots of advanced degrees, promise not to have sex, go off to a foreign country, learn a second or fourth language, sweat or freeze, live in the villages sometimes, and get far less income than their high school buddies back in the home country. And they like it. Yeah, there are some really rotten missionaries out there, and their God intends to punish them for it. The same "God" intends to reward the good missionaries.

If you've been so abused by organized religion that you can't face it, you have my sympathies. But if you're just ignorant, try to get to know what the missionaries are doing in your province.

[garro]

You never seen their pamhpletes where they tell the schoolchildren that they will go to hel_l if they don't belive in Jesus!

Buddhism: If you are a bad boy/girl, then in your next life you will return as a lower form. If you continue your bad ways, your downward spiral will cause you to end up as a housefly only to be squashed by the hoof of some water buffalo. (Personally, I think "hel_l" would be the miserable life of some soi dogs or cats in Thailand--presumably someone's former dodgy aunt or uncle, according to Buddha.)

Is there really any difference?

Human beings cannot escape the inborn consciousness (some say, placed there by God) that a human being's actions (born from belief) have eternal consequences, good or bad.

Where the rubber meets the road: Put even the most adamant agnostic or athiest on this thread into a fox hole in war, and listen to the prayers! A very chilling book is Dying Words of Saints and Sinners. It reveals the thoughts and perceptions of those on the edge of the precipice between life and death. Here's a sampling:

********

"I am suffering the pangs of the damned." -- TALLEYRAND PERIGORD.

"Give me laudanum that I may not think of eternity." -- MIRABEAU.

"I am abandoned by God and man! I shall go to hel_l! O Christ! O Jesus Christ! -- VOLTAIRE.

"What blood, what murders, what evil counsels have I followed! I am lost; I see it well!" -- CHARLES IX, king of France.

"I would give worlds, if I had them, if the Age of Reason had never been published. O Lord, help me! Christ, help me! It is hel_l to be left alone!" -- TOM PAYNE.

********

One disturbing death-bed statement like that gives one pause, but a book full of them leaves one breathless. Maybe there really is something to this after-life stuff.

As somebody who worked as a palliative care nurse (care for the dying) I know a lot about how people behave on their deathbed. I also know that Buddhists do not look to God to save them.

What has this got to do with Christian Missionaries bribing Thai children?

[toptuan]

What has this got to do with Christian Missionaries bribing Thai children?

Did you read the post? The poster was objecting to tying the Christian message to hel_l.

It was my purpose to point out the similarities to the Buddhist views of the afterllife, and mankind's apparent innate consciousness that tells him what one sows one reaps.

Implication: maybe we needn't push the panic button regarding the Christian message unless were also willing to tell Buddhists to drop the threats as well.

Didn't think I needed to spell it out, but hoped that helped you.

Edited February 4, 2007 by toptuan

[toptuan]

As somebody who worked as a palliative care nurse (care for the dying) I know a lot about how people behave on their deathbed.

To speak to your other point, I also have spent considerable time in my home country as a volunteer hospital visitor, and thus have also been at the bedside of the dying, including several of my own relatives.

Many have been remarkably lucid right up to death, giving instructions to family, blessings to children, reflecting on their lives or the hereafter. It's not all delirious trauma as your post may be implying.

Edited February 4, 2007 by toptuan

[garro]

What has this got to do with Christian Missionaries bribing Thai children?

Did you read the post? The poster was objecting to tying the Christian message to hel_l.

It was my purpose to point out the similarities to the Buddhist views of the afterllife, and mankind's apparent innate consciousness that tells him what one sows one reaps.

Implication: maybe we needn't push the panic button regarding the Christian message unless were also willing to tell Buddhists to drop the threats as well.

Didn't think I needed to spell it out, but hoped that helped you.

If you were aware of the Buddhist view of the afterlife you would know that they do not believe in a self that goes there.

Again, what has this got to do with Christian missionaries bribing children?

[meadish_sweetball]

One disturbing death-bed statement like that gives one pause, but a book full of them leaves one breathless. Maybe there really is something to this after-life stuff.

Is there a book of Buddhists and Hindus who call out for Jesus in their moment of dying, too?

[garro]

As somebody who worked as a palliative care nurse (care for the dying) I know a lot about how people behave on their deathbed.

To speak to your other point, I also have spent considerable time in my home country as a volunteer hospital visitor, and thus have also been at the bedside of the dying, including several of my own relatives.

Many have been remarkably lucid right up to death, giving instructions to family, blessings to children, reflecting on their lives or the hereafter. It's not all delirious trauma as your post may be implying.

Hospital volunteers do a marvelous job and I am sure many dying people benefited from your work/friendship. I did not mean to imply that dying was a delirious trauma and I am not sure where you got this idea from. I have worked in multi-ethnic areas and seen people approach death in many different ways. I have seen people of different faiths approach death with a serinity that was truly amazing.

[sceadugenga]

Ahh, Smilodon, but I stand on my right to interpret the Bible anyway I like. Render unto Ceasar.....

To put the three words upon which you base your statement into perspective, and context:

Mark 12:

13: And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

14: And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?

15: Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.

16: And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

17: And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Note, please, that the issue at hand was whether one should pay taxes, specifically, at that moment, whether the Jews, whose country was under occupation by the Romans who were idol-worshiping heathens, and therefore despised by the Jews. What Jesus said makes it clear that paying taxes, even to a heathen government you do not agree with, is acceptable, and you are not betraying God because those to whom you pay taxes are not aligned in any way with his Word.

Financing a government you don't like of a region or country you are in with tax money is not a declaration by Jesus Christ that Christians should stay out of government. I don't know how you might have construed it that way.

However, you said rightly that you can interpret the Bible any way you want. You have your own free will. And you also retain accountability for all your decisions. Not fate, karma, luck, chance, your abusive parents or Christians who you don't approve of.

Sheeet. Cursed and thrown into the pit! Oh well, at least the company will be interesting as long as they have separate pits for those condemned for the sin of pride.

[toptuan]

Hospital volunteers do a marvelous job and I am sure many dying people benefited from your work/friendship. I did not mean to imply that dying was a delirious trauma and I am not sure where you got this idea from. I have worked in multi-ethnic areas and seen people approach death in many different ways. I have seen people of different faiths approach death with a serinity that was truly amazing.

Appreciate your clarifying input, and I retract my assumption.

[toptuan]

What has this got to do with Christian Missionaries bribing Thai children?

Did you read the post? The poster was objecting to tying the Christian message to hel_l.

It was my purpose to point out the similarities to the Buddhist views of the afterllife, and mankind's apparent innate consciousness that tells him what one sows one reaps.

Implication: maybe we needn't push the panic button regarding the Christian message unless were also willing to tell Buddhists to drop the threats as well.

Didn't think I needed to spell it out, but hoped that helped you.

If you were aware of the Buddhist view of the afterlife you would know that they do not believe in a self that goes there.

Yes, a big difference between Buddhism and Christianity is that the latter teaches the conscious "self" is everlasting. Put into other words, "10,000 years from now, you will be somewhere, and you'll know it." The former does teach that the soi dog doesn't really remember if he was someone's former dodgy uncle.

However, I've discussed this subject often with Thai graduate students over four years. They believe in a connection between one's actions in this life, and what they "come back as" in the next life. Whether the "conscious self" goes there or not, is not the point I'm making. It's the reaping/sowing concept, or "Karma" to put it into Hindu/Buddhist terms.

Again, what has this got to do with Christian missionaries bribing children?

Again, please read the bold print above.

Edited February 4, 2007 by toptuan

[jdinasia]

OK .. what is there to be offended by? In this case Thai people of a different faith than the norm ... helping people? Wait ... the help has a 'fee' involved? (That being attendance?) This 'fee' would in effect cancel out any other obligation felt .... so is probably better than just giving stuff away

But honestly I don't see anything to be concerned by in this .. most of my Thai friends went to "Christian" schools .. and none of them ended up as Christians. The only group that I know of that have converted in any numbers in Thailand are the hilltribes that are so marginalized by Thai society that the victim role supplied by Christianity has appeal.

I do get a kick out of the Mormon kids on bikes in this heat though!