Survival boxes to be dropped in Tham Luang cave waterways

[Artisi]

4 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Not to dwell on this point but it's a point that worth making unequivocally:

 

I've included a link below to the water levels/usage of the reservoirs in Thailand, click on Bhumibol or Mae Kwang at the top of the page and hold your mouse pointer over the 2018 line and see the date the line stopped going down and started to go up. That point occurs after enough rain has fallen to saturate the ground and run-off begins to form streams and rivers underground which then feed into water catchment areas and cause the water levels in the reservoirs to rise - that date this year was 1 May, not July and the locals will know that, all of them.

 

http://www.thaiwater.net/DATA/REPORT/php/rid_dam_1.php?lang=en

 

seems that 1 didn't, and besides - Murphy's rule should always be applied - if something can go wrong it will - so change the warning sign if everyone (officials) know.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Artisi

[Rimmer]

Some quoted replies to previously removed posts have now been removed

[sanemax]

3 hours ago, DM07 said:

As I said before: please change your name!

The poster with the cave story explained, that it was his first time IN THAILAND...IN A CAVE...RECOMMENDED TO HIM by a (Thai-) friend!

How are you to know, that something that is POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS in YOUR part of the world and is handled with a modicum of safety features, is not handled with any modicum of safety in another country?

And please...we are not talking about "a decent amount of safety"! We are talking almost NO safety, as told in the posters story!

That's why the post was dumb and of the same arrogance, the original poster was accused of!

Now...I understand, you are one of those people, who have to defend the indefensible, because everything in Thailand is just so super great, they can do no wrong!

Now please go and change your username!  

Caves are dangerous in every Country and this really is nothing solely to do with Thailand or any other Country , Caves are usually not manned tourist attractions and they dont have lights and cordons in any Country(although some may have , but mostly they dont)

If you dont know that dark caves are potentially dangerous , and that there may be rock falls , or they may flood , or its dark and you may get lost or that if you step into a dark place where you cannot see the floor , there may be no floor there and you may fall , you really should not go into caves without someone holding your hand .

   I do feel that some Westerners are so used to being told what they cannot do, they have lost all sense or whats dangerous .

  Caves everywhere are dangerous and you should not go into them unprepared and if you need signs which state where danger is , its best that you stay away from caves and cliffs

[KiwiKiwi]

16 hours ago, markaoffy said:

Sounds pretty desperate to just drop food boxes and hope!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

Perhaps Buddha and his Phii will provide...

[Eligius]

4 hours ago, DM07 said:

As I said before: please change your name!

The poster with the cave story explained, that it was his first time IN THAILAND...IN A CAVE...RECOMMENDED TO HIM by a (Thai-) friend!

How are you to know, that something that is POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS in YOUR part of the world and is handled with a modicum of safety features, is not handled with any modicum of safety in another country?

And please...we are not talking about "a decent amount of safety"! We are talking almost NO safety, as told in the posters story!

That's why the post was dumb and of the same arrogance, the original poster was accused of!

Now...I understand, you are one of those people, who have to defend the indefensible, because everything in Thailand is just so super great, they can do no wrong!

Now please go and change your username!  

Thank you, DM07: you understood my experience and my point perfectly. I appreciate what you wrote. You get it!

[DM07]

2 hours ago, sanemax said:

Caves are dangerous in every Country and this really is nothing solely to do with Thailand or any other Country , Caves are usually not manned tourist attractions and they dont have lights and cordons in any Country(although some may have , but mostly they dont)

If you dont know that dark caves are potentially dangerous , and that there may be rock falls , or they may flood , or its dark and you may get lost or that if you step into a dark place where you cannot see the floor , there may be no floor there and you may fall , you really should not go into caves without someone holding your hand .

   I do feel that some Westerners are so used to being told what they cannot do, they have lost all sense or whats dangerous .

  Caves everywhere are dangerous and you should not go into them unprepared and if you need signs which state where danger is , its best that you stay away from caves and cliffs

Okay...wow...

You do understand, that there may be different kinds of "dangerous", do you?!

And while we are talking of "staying away",,,someone should inform your dad, that you are using his computer while he is a work!

Jeeeeeezussssss!

[DM07]

4 hours ago, Artisi said:

seems that 1 didn't, and besides - Murphy's rule should always be applied - if something can go wrong it will - so change the warning sign if everyone (officials) know.

You don't understand!

Something that is sooooooo cooooool about Thailand is, that it is no nanny- state...like back home!

Here, you can drive a car with no safety- belt or a motorbike, without wearing a helmet!

Or you can go and die in cave, because no one gives a ....

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, DM07 said:

Okay...wow...

You do understand, that there may be different kinds of "dangerous", do you?!

 

If something is dangerous , then its dangerous .

People can avoid danger , if they realise and understand the danger and take steps to avoid it .

   People who do not realise dangers , need others to stop them getting themselves into dangerous situations .

  All caves need to be fenced of with big signs saying *DANGEROUS* and there needs to be someone watching , to make sure that people who still dont understand the dangers , try to get into the cave .

[Artisi]

8 minutes ago, DM07 said:

You don't understand!

Something that is sooooooo cooooool about Thailand is, that it is no nanny- state...like back home!

Here, you can drive a car with no safety- belt or a motorbike, without wearing a helmet!

Or you can go and die in cave, because no one gives a ....

Oh, I fully understand. The comment was simply to try and counter in the same vein what was a complicated over the top technical posting what would be far over the heads of most village people in that area. 

[DM07]

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

If something is dangerous , then its dangerous .

People can avoid danger , if they realise and understand the danger and take steps to avoid it .

   People who do not realise dangers , need others to stop them getting themselves into dangerous situations .

  All caves need to be fenced of with big signs saying *DANGEROUS* and there needs to be someone watching , to make sure that people who still dont understand the dangers , try to get into the cave .

Phew...one last try!

Have you ever been to the ocean?

The ocean is potentially dangerous, I think we can agree, since we are humans and not fish...

Now...there are parts of the ocean, where sharks live and parts, where they don't live!

That makes the part of the ocean WITH the sharks a bit more dangerous, than the bit WITHOUT the sharks (yes...I know...theoretically, there could be a shark, showing up on the part, where normally there are no sharks...but that is not the point, little Max!)

So....

There are caves (although all potentially dangerous) that are more dangerous than others!

If I would be in Thailand for the first time EVER and I don't know, that a decent number of Thai- people have a different grasp of reality (danger) then I have, and a FRIEND tells me, that THIS PARTICULAR CAVE is not dangerous, then I would trust him and maybe enter that cave and I be "surprised" finding myself locked in a boat in that cave for some time, fearing for my life!

 

Now...why did that happen?

There are many possibilities here- none of which I am familliar, because it is my FIRST TIME IN THAILAND and I come from a country (Germany in my case) where safety is been taken seriously!

a) Thais are Buddhists, so if they die in a car- crash, cave accident, shark attack...they get a second chance in their next life! I am an atheist- I don't get that chance!

b ) many Thais are a bit "different", and they don't see dangers, where other people do, because they are so carefree and fun loving people!! 

c) Thai- society is extremely corrupt, so some safety - measures are dropped, because someone wants to make a quick buck!

...and so on...

 

But OF COURSE you know that, because you and your friend Julie are superdooper intelligent and knowledgable and rest of us is just a bunch of morons, who need things to be spelled out for us.

That is why, some poor lifeguard has to stick a red flag in the sand, when the waves and the current on a beach are unsafe to swim, where on a normally calm and sunny day, there is no danger!

See?

Things that are dangerous on one day, are less dangerous on other days!

Different levels of danger!

 

DO-YOU-UNDER-SA-TAND THAT NOW?

 

Please dont answer!

If I read another of your posts, I am afraid my brain turns into marmalade! 

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, DM07 said:

 

DO-YOU-UNDER-SA-TAND THAT NOW?

 

Please dont answer!

If I read another of your posts, I am afraid my brain turns into marmalade! 

Ask me a question and then tell me not to reply .

Make your mind up , you either ask me a question and expect a reply , or you dont want a reply and thus shouldnt ask me a question .

   If another person tells me that something isnt dangerous , I always decide myself as to whether it is dangerous or not

[DM07]

16 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Ask me a question and then tell me not to reply .

Make your mind up , you either ask me a question and expect a reply , or you dont want a reply and thus shouldnt ask me a question .

   If another person tells me that something isnt dangerous , I always decide myself as to whether it is dangerous or not

Do you know what a rhetorical question is?

NO....DON'T....

[sanemax]

31 minutes ago, DM07 said:

There are many possibilities here- none of which I am familliar, because it is my FIRST TIME IN THAILAND and I come from a country (Germany in my case) where safety is been taken seriously!

That was my point , many people coming from the West are conditioned to thinking that everything is safe and that if its unsafe , you will be stopped from doing it by someone in a uniform .

   Thailand is different , there are not hoards of people in uniforms telling you not to do things , and its up to the individual to make his own decisions .

  Safety isnt taken seriously here in Thailand , so its up top the individual to remain safe , rather than relying on other people to tell him what to do .

   Its like when you are crossing the road in Thailand at traffic lights on red , dont assume that all or any cars will stop , keep looking left and right whilst crossing the road , fully expecting a motorbike to be coming at high speed on the wrong side of the road with no lights on and having no intentions of stopping

[Julie H]

29 minutes ago, sanemax said:

That was my point , many people coming from the West are conditioned to thinking that everything is safe and that if its unsafe , you will be stopped from doing it by someone in a uniform .

   Thailand is different , there are not hoards of people in uniforms telling you not to do things , and its up to the individual to make his own decisions .

  Safety isnt taken seriously here in Thailand , so its up top the individual to remain safe , rather than relying on other people to tell him what to do .

   Its like when you are crossing the road in Thailand at traffic lights on red , dont assume that all or any cars will stop , keep looking left and right whilst crossing the road , fully expecting a motorbike to be coming at high speed on the wrong side of the road with no lights on and having no intentions of stopping

DM07 Cant understand what you are saying because he thinks his views are correct. Thats how powerful cultural conditioning is. Its pointless to try to explain this to him until he is ready to accept that his views are just a product of his environment as are the Thais

[Ks45672]

Near where I grew up there was an abandoned mine we used to play in as kids 

 

 

Local Authoritys simply installed a gate and only the park ranger or someone like that had the key so tours were still allowed in but kids couldn't wander in unsupervised 

 

Would have worked well in this case.... 

[Artisi]

12 minutes ago, Ks45672 said:

Near where I grew up there was an abandoned mine we used to play in as kids 

 

 

Local Authoritys simply installed a gate and only the park ranger or someone like that had the key so tours were still allowed in but kids couldn't wander in unsupervised 

 

Would have worked well in this case.... 

In Thailand, it would never work - the lock would go missing the first day. 

[neeray]

5 minutes ago, Ks45672 said:

Near where I grew up there was an abandoned mine we used to play in as kids 

 

 

Local Authoritys simply installed a gate and only the park ranger or someone like that had the key so tours were still allowed in but kids couldn't wander in unsupervised 

 

Would have worked well in this case.... 

Besides my affinity for Thais, I so relate to this story because I was just like any of those boys in a group on bicycles at that age. Lock up the cave (or whatever). We'd have just gone around, over, under the gates.

Like this group, we were incorrigible dare devils who should have been arrested for the things we did. And in some instances, just like these boys, we invited death with our escapades.

[Ks45672]

2 minutes ago, neeray said:

Besides my affinity for Thais, I so relate to this story because I was just like any of those boys in a group on bicycles at that age. Lock up the cave (or whatever). We'd have just gone around, over, under the gates.

Like this group, we were incorrigible dare devils who should have been arrested for the things we did. And in some instances, just like these boys, we invited death with our escapades.

This was a floor to ceiling gate (picture  jail cell bars and you'll have the right idea) 

 

There was no way under, over or through it without the key

 

It was sealed for public safety to stop kids like us playing, homeless people living there and drug addicts using it as a safe place to shoot heroin and relax etc

 

 

[metisdead]

An off topic post in violation of fair use policy has been removed.

 

Inflammatory posts and the replies have been removed. 

[Ks45672]

28 minutes ago, Artisi said:

In Thailand, it would never work - the lock would go missing the first day. 

Not every country do things as backwards as Thailand.... 

[Kieran00001]

32 minutes ago, neeray said:

Besides my affinity for Thais, I so relate to this story because I was just like any of those boys in a group on bicycles at that age. Lock up the cave (or whatever). We'd have just gone around, over, under the gates.

Like this group, we were incorrigible dare devils who should have been arrested for the things we did. And in some instances, just like these boys, we invited death with our escapades.

 

This group were led into the cave by their football coach, I also had a childhood that involved this sort of risk taking, growing up there were masses of derelict industrial buildings, old mines and other such dangerous places we could get into, however the adults were all doing what they could to stop us, and not once did an adult join us exploring any of them.

[Krataiboy]

On 6/29/2018 at 5:45 PM, thenoilif said:

A very typical farang post. Thinking that you know everything and the locals know nothing.

Let me educate you a little. There are numerous cave exploring accidents, mostly due to people falling or drowning (cave diving) that happen every year all around the world, including the US. For example, a guy just recently died in Mammoth Cave in America because he attempted to go on a tour that he wasn't physically fit to handle. I could bash the say something to the effect of why are so many westerners so obese and unaware of their physical fitness but I'm not one for stereotyping. 

 

There are also all sorts of other eco-sports like rock climbing, mountain climbing, scuba diving, mountain biking, and hiking that have known dangers but people still do them anyways. You know how many bodies are up on Everest? You know why they're still there? Given your expertise, maybe you should come up with a plan that no other person has been able to devise and get them off the mountain. Nature is a dangerous and often unforgiving place and some of it is also unregulated and fortunately, not destroyed by too much nanny hand-holding regulations. 

 

This actually reminds more of what we see with coal mining accidents and typically, there is very little that can be done with those as well and often times progress is extremely slow. 

 

Reality is, this group made a choice to enter a cave, one that they had been in a few times before, ignore a warning sign, and are now in grave danger. The coach made a bad judgment call, simple as that. Try not to turn everything into a racial superiority contest.

 

 

 

 

Your ad hominem attack does not invalidate the points I made.

 

Instead of slapping silly, unjustified labels on posters who try to be constructive, how about coming up with a few practical suggestions of your own for making such sites safer.

 

I doubt any other forum member will accuse you of "racial superiority" for doing so.

 

Bless.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Krataiboy

[poohy]

Now there serious question here

This has been troubling me if these boxes can float along the waterways to the kids

Surely there must be gap between water and ceiling to enable this

if so why cant divers get through then?

[metisdead]

Replies to previously removed posts have been removed. 

 

Off topic trolling posts and the replies have been removed. 

 

Offensive and inflammatory posts and the replies have been removed. 

[thenoilif]

22 hours ago, poohy said:

Now there serious question here

This has been troubling me if these boxes can float along the waterways to the kids

Surely there must be gap between water and ceiling to enable this

if so why cant divers get through then?

The boxes are 1) not living beings and can be thrown into muddy water with zero visibility and just go with the flow, humans are quite delicate and things like pointy rocks cut or impale us quite easily and kill us 2) the boxes are small, a grown man with a scuba tank on his back is quite big. 

 

Based on some of the videos I've seen, these passages are often narrow and you have to squeeze through to get past them. It may be a situation where they would have to remove their scuba gear and work it through separately to just be able to move forward. Doing this in clear blue seas with very little current is hard enough, imagine doing it in a confined space, unable to see, and water rushing past you. 

 

Edit: The boxes have neutral buoyancy, meaning that they don't float on top but in the middle of the water column. This reduces the chance of them getting hung up on the ceiling.

 

Reports have stated that one of the reasons why the divers have had to be overly cautious is that the passage is completely flooded so there is no air, and this goes on for around 2.5 kilometers. In normal conditions, It's risky to traverse this distance without having access to air, in this case, its close to suicidal. I give these Seal divers a lot of credit for their efforts in trying to get these boys out alive.

Edited July 2, 2018 by thenoilif