All Aussie Related Stuff (excluding the old age pension)

[oznomad]

You guys are looking at the situation bass ackwards.

It's very easy to remain a tax resident if you want to be one. No, you dont have to be there for 183 days +.

The real issue is for people that want to be non-resident.

[Will27]

9 minutes ago, oznomad said:

You guys are looking at the situation bass ackwards.

It's very easy to remain a tax resident if you want to be one. No, you dont have to be there for 183 days +.

The real issue is for people that want to be non-resident.

Can you explain how someone who lives full time in Thailand, doesn't go back to Oz and has maybe

a bank account and the pension as income, is a resident?

 

Other than just ticking you're a resident when you're obviously not.

 

People wanting to be non-residents would be in the extreme minority on here you'd think

[simple1]

4 hours ago, Will27 said:

I still haven't heard of the government refusing someone a passport for a tax debt.

Should one enter bankruptcy with an ATO debt one's passport could easily have a stop placed during the bankruptcy period. One can apply for exception for short trip overseas - say one month.

 

https://www.afsa.gov.au/insolvency/cant-pay-my-debts/bankruptcy-and-tax-returns#:~:text=AFSA explained that most ATO,ATO would get a share.

Edited May 2, 2022 by simple1

[Lacessit]

18 minutes ago, oznomad said:

You guys are looking at the situation bass ackwards.

It's very easy to remain a tax resident if you want to be one. No, you dont have to be there for 183 days +.

The real issue is for people that want to be non-resident.

I would be delighted if you could explain for the benefit of all how that is possible.

BTW, yes you will have to be in Oz for at least 183 days in a year, if projected simplification of the residency definition goes through.

[Will27]

40 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Should one enter bankruptcy with an ATO debt one's passport could easily have a stop placed during the bankruptcy period. One can apply for exception for short trip overseas - say one month.

 

https://www.afsa.gov.au/insolvency/cant-pay-my-debts/bankruptcy-and-tax-returns#:~:text=AFSA explained that most ATO,ATO would get a share.

Nice call.

 

Although I wasn't talking about the bankruptcy process, which is entirely different to what KH way saying.

 

He was inferring that the government wouldn't issue new passports to someone with an ATO debt and people overseas would be stuck.

 

Another "proposed change" I guess.

[KhunHeineken]

8 hours ago, Will27 said:

Don't tell me you're not scare mongering when you're pretty much saying the government will refuse you a passport if you have an outstanding debt.

 

You're making this stuff up.

I have given the example where if you don't pay your speeding fines, your license is canceled.  Good luck renewing your license when you haven't paid your fines.  The government will not issue the document (license) to you until you have paid..  Did I make that up, or is it a fact?

 

I have posted a link where travel was restricted for those with a HECS debt.  Basically, they were not allowed out of Australia until the debt was paid, or arrangements were made to pay the debt.  I posted a link.  Did I make that up, or is it fact?

 

What's stopping the federal government from doing something similar for tax debtors who are already overseas, with their passport?  Remember, the Australia government owns your passport at all times. 

 

I'm suggesting it's a possibility.  I am not saying it's going to happen.   If I said, "It's happening now" then you can call me out on "making this stuff up." 

 

I think The Greens and Independents will get a lot of votes next month.  Am I making that up?  Is it an opinion?  Is it a prediction?  Is it likely?  Could it happen?  What if it does happen?  

 

Some of us live for the day, but cast an eye over tomorrow.  If you don't, that's fine, but discussing "tomorrow" is not scaremongering.  

 

If you disagree, that's fine, and I am happy to listen to your argument, but just saying "You're making this stuff up" doesn't have a lot of substance. 

 

    

Edited May 2, 2022 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

7 hours ago, scorecard said:

Basic debt (e.g. credit card well overdue), is not and never has been within the pervue of government. 

Correct, and I never said it was.  Debt to the government is a different story.  

[KhunHeineken]

7 hours ago, Will27 said:

I still haven't heard of the government refusing someone a passport for a tax debt.

Either have I, but I have provided a link where they are stopping people with HECS debts leaving the country at the airport.  This red flag is obviously attached to their passport details.  

 

Do you think it's impossible they could tweak that system to scoop up tax debtors that are already outside of Australia?  HECS debt, tax debt, it's all just money owed to them.  

 

Before you say, "You're just making stuff up" I am not.  I am asking a question.    

 

If you say no, happy to listen to why, other than, "It will be in the papers."  ????  

[CygnusX1]

On 4/30/2022 at 12:21 PM, KhunHeineken said:

Domicile, family ties, community ties, utility bills, intention of returning and so on may soon be replaced with, "Have you been outside of Australia for more than 183 days in the last calendar / financial year?"  Answer no, you are fine.  Answer yes, here's your non resident tax bill, from dollar number one, no tax free threshold. 

 

There will be no skirting around the 183 days as it will be linked to immigration's data base.  

If you carefully read the link to the holdingredlich site posted by tlcwaterfall on page 28, things may not be that dire. The 183 day test is only stage 1 - you will have to satisfy other proposed criteria in stage 2 to be declared a non resident for tax purposes. Wealthy people can actually save huge amounts of capital gains tax by being non resident, and I think the ATO’s more interested on cracking down on them. Nevertheless, if you live in Thailand it’s a really good idea to spend some time in Australia each year, and if possible, have an Australian address.

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, oznomad said:

You guys are looking at the situation bass ackwards.

It's very easy to remain a tax resident if you want to be one. No, you dont have to be there for 183 days +.

The real issue is for people that want to be non-resident.

Enlighten me.  

[CygnusX1]

On 4/30/2022 at 12:21 PM, KhunHeineken said:

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by CygnusX1

[CygnusX1]

Sorry, my post above was duplicated, and don’t know how to delete it.

[Will27]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Either have I, but I have provided a link where they are stopping people with HECS debts leaving the country at the airport.  This red flag is obviously attached to their passport details.  

 

Do you think it's impossible they could tweak that system to scoop up tax debtors that are already outside of Australia?  HECS debt, tax debt, it's all just money owed to them.  

 

Before you say, "You're just making stuff up" I am not.  I am asking a question.    

 

If you say no, happy to listen to why, other than, "It will be in the papers."  ????  

You've posted twice now about people leaving country with HECS debt stopped.

 

Unless I misread the link, I never saw anything about people being stopped leaving the country.

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

Should one enter bankruptcy with an ATO debt one's passport could easily have a stop placed during the bankruptcy period. One can apply for exception for short trip overseas - say one month.

 

https://www.afsa.gov.au/insolvency/cant-pay-my-debts/bankruptcy-and-tax-returns#:~:text=AFSA explained that most ATO,ATO would get a share.

Changing the tax residency laws is useless if it's not backed up by some means of enforcement, designed to ensure payment.  

 

What's the point of of making a black and white 183 day law, if everyone outside of Australia didn't have to pay their tax liabilities, with no fear of consequences?  

 

I put forward one simple method they may implement. The method is already being used in similar situations, and I have posted a link showing one. 

 

Will they implement it, I don't know.  Will they allow Aussie expats to keep shifting money earned in Australia to Thailand, without any non resident taxation, despite them being outside of Australia for 183 days, without any enforcement, I highly doubt it.    Is stating such a thing really scaremongering, or just expecting the inevitable?

 

Blind Freddy can see they are tightening the noose.  

[Will27]

44 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have given the example where if you don't pay your speeding fines, your license is canceled.  Good luck renewing your license when you haven't paid your fines.  The government will not issue the document (license) to you until you have paid..  Did I make that up, or is it a fact?

 

I have posted a link where travel was restricted for those with a HECS debt.  Basically, they were not allowed out of Australia until the debt was paid, or arrangements were made to pay the debt.  I posted a link.  Did I make that up, or is it fact?

 

What's stopping the federal government from doing something similar for tax debtors who are already overseas, with their passport?  Remember, the Australia government owns your passport at all times. 

 

I'm suggesting it's a possibility.  I am not saying it's going to happen.   If I said, "It's happening now" then you can call me out on "making this stuff up." 

 

I think The Greens and Independents will get a lot of votes next month.  Am I making that up?  Is it an opinion?  Is it a prediction?  Is it likely?  Could it happen?  What if it does happen?  

 

Some of us live for the day, but cast an eye over tomorrow.  If you don't, that's fine, but discussing "tomorrow" is not scaremongering.  

 

If you disagree, that's fine, and I am happy to listen to your argument, but just saying "You're making this stuff up" doesn't have a lot of substance. 

 

    

Comparing unpaid fines and licence renewals to being banned from getting a passport is a stretch.

Even for you.

 

Again, can you post a link where people with hecs debts were stopped from leaving the country?

I've seen nothing that says that.

 

You keep saying your stuff is a possibility.

It's possible I will win a million dollars on the lotto tomorrow using your theory.

Possibility, likely, no.

 

I think we all keep an eye out for the future.

Keep telling people all of this craps is scare mongering.

 

If you're basing people being denied a passport to people not getting a licence renewal, you're in Laa Laa land.

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, Will27 said:

Nice call.

 

Although I wasn't talking about the bankruptcy process, which is entirely different to what KH way saying.

 

He was inferring that the government wouldn't issue new passports to someone with an ATO debt and people overseas would be stuck.

 

Another "proposed change" I guess.

The ATO is the single biggest entity that puts companies, businesses, and individuals into insolvency and bankruptcy.

 

The government is the creditor, and obviously also issues passports.

 

Why would the government issue a debtor a new passport, when they own the government money?

 

It's already happening with drivers licenses and speeding fines at a state level.  No, I am not making that up.  

 

The 183 day law isn't just going to come in with zero enforcement.  I am sure they have a plan.  Once again, I am only suggesting this may be their plan.  It's only my opinion.  I am not saying it will come in or is already in. 

 

I would find it strange the government wants to have everyone outside of Australia for 183 days deemed a non resident for taxation purposes, without a plan on how to collect the money that they moved the goal post for, in order to collect the money.  

 

    

[Will27]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

The ATO is the single biggest entity that puts companies, businesses, and individuals into insolvency and bankruptcy.

 

The government is the creditor, and obviously also issues passports.

 

Why would the government issue a debtor a new passport, when they own the government money?

 

It's already happening with drivers licenses and speeding fines at a state level.  No, I am not making that up.  

 

The 183 day law isn't just going to come in with zero enforcement.  I am sure they have a plan.  Once again, I am only suggesting this may be their plan.  It's only my opinion.  I am not saying it will come in or is already in. 

 

I would find it strange the government wants to have everyone outside of Australia for 183 days deemed a non resident for taxation purposes, without a plan on how to collect the money that they moved the goal post for, in order to collect the money.  

 

    

People are still getting issued passports now despite having debts.

I can't see that changing.

 

Going on your theory, they will deny people getting a passport for any debt to the government.

That's just crazy, not to mention unworkable.

 

BTW, still waiting for that link where people were stopped from leaving the country due to their hecs debt.

[KhunHeineken]

46 minutes ago, CygnusX1 said:

If you carefully read the link to the holdingredlich site posted by tlcwaterfall on page 28, things may not be that dire. The 183 day test is only stage 1 - you will have to satisfy other proposed criteria in stage 2 to be declared a non resident for tax purposes. Wealthy people can actually save huge amounts of capital gains tax by being non resident, and I think the ATO’s more interested on cracking down on them. Nevertheless, if you live in Thailand it’s a really good idea to spend some time in Australia each year, and if possible, have an Australian address.

The 183 days is going to be the "Primary Test."  Does the primary test over rule secondary tests?  I don't know.  The term "bright light test" or something like that was used.  

 

You might be correct, and I hope you are.  Maybe the little guys can slip through the net.  

 

I'm not sure how having an Australian address will get around the 183 day rule.   

[KhunHeineken]

44 minutes ago, Will27 said:

You've posted twice now about people leaving country with HECS debt stopped.

 

Unless I misread the link, I never saw anything about people being stopped leaving the country.

It's because they paid, or made arrangements to pay.  

[CygnusX1]

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

The 183 days is going to be the "Primary Test."  Does the primary test over rule secondary tests?

My interpretation is that it would not - to be a non resident, you first have to satisfy stage 1, and then you would also have to satisfy stage 2. However, I’m not a lawyer!

The second last paragraph of the holdingredlich site refers to Australian accommodation - concrete links to Australia will still be a factor in the new legislation.

I hope I’m right too, as back in the days when we could travel, I was out of Australia for more than 183 days of every year, and intend to do the same if I can ever travel again. How about someone who lives in Australia for 5 months a year, and spends 1 month in each of 7 different countries. If he’s not a resident of Australia, where is he a resident?

[Will27]

33 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

It's because they paid, or made arrangements to pay.  

No.

You have posted several time that people were stopped from leaving the country.

 

"I have provided a link where they are stopping people with HECS debts leaving the country at the airport".

 

More scare mongering from you again.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Will27

[KhunHeineken]

37 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Comparing unpaid fines and licence renewals to being banned from getting a passport is a stretch.

Even for you.

Once again, you are disagreeing with me, which is perfectly fine, but offer no substance other than disagreeing with me.

 

Once again, they are not going to bring in a taxation law, which is obviously designed to net them money, without implementing appropriate enforcement. 

 

Given expats are already outside of Australia, so it's not like they can stop them from leaving, they will have to have a plan on how to enforcement payment.

 

What's the one thing an Australian needs overseas, a passport. Not a sim card, not a bank account, not a license, a passport.  Guess who issues passports, the same entity that is owed money.  That kinda puts them in the box seat, don't ya think? 

 

45 minutes ago, Will27 said:

You keep saying your stuff is a possibility.

It's possible I will win a million dollars on the lotto tomorrow using your theory.

Possibility, likely, no.

I would say the 183 day rule coming in is highly probable.  

 

What enforcement they have planned for after that, I don't know. 

 

You are correct, I only suggested it as a possibility.  Do you have any suggestions on how they will make someone already overseas pay their tax liability?  

 

47 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I think we all keep an eye out for the future.

Keep telling people all of this craps is scare mongering.

That future is near, not distant.  

 

I have posted links, and given factual examples.  It's not <deleted>.  You have posted nothing of substance to counter.  No links, no examples.  Just attacked the messenger, basically.   

 

Can you post why you think some, or none of all of this will happen, other than, it will be in the paper and there will be backlash?

 

56 minutes ago, Will27 said:

If you're basing people being denied a passport to people not getting a licence renewal, you're in Laa Laa land.

Ok.  Why do you say that?

 

Once again, you poke a joke at me, but offer no substance. 

 

Do you think the government is spending millions of dollars on changing the tax residency law just for fun?     

[scorecard]

28 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

The 183 days is going to be the "Primary Test."  Does the primary test over rule secondary tests?  I don't know.  The term "bright light test" or something like that was used.  

 

You might be correct, and I hope you are.  Maybe the little guys can slip through the net.  

 

I'm not sure how having an Australian address will get around the 183 day rule.   

My thoughts too.

 

From my discussions with C'link when I applied for the oap and several later discussions talking to the C'link International office, they rely totally on the continuous live matching of immmigration departures and arrivals, which they take as their 'bible' for the location location of the pensioner.

Edited May 2, 2022 by scorecard

[CygnusX1]

5 minutes ago, scorecard said:

From my discussions with C'link when I applied for the oap

We should be clear here that we’re talking about two different things - time spent in Australia for Centrelink benefits as against residency tests for taxation. Both of course are a huge concern.

[KhunHeineken]

40 minutes ago, Will27 said:

People are still getting issued passports now despite having debts.

I can't see that changing.

Great.  Why?

 

The new laws haven't come in yet.  

 

40 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Going on your theory, they will deny people getting a passport for any debt to the government.

That's just crazy, not to mention unworkable.

I never said "any debt."  I suggested tax debt. 

 

There's a reason why they are casting the non resident for taxation purposes net wider.  They know they can scoop up a lot of people, possibly even pensioners.  

 

It's really easy, and hardly unworkable.  

 

You present at n Embassy for a passport renewal:

 

Staff:  "Sir, you must contact the ATO to resolve you tax debt matter before we can issue you a new passport." 

 

Expat:  "But, but, but. I need a new passport so I can stay in Thailand."

 

Staff:  "Have a good day, Sir."   

 

Remember when embassies stopped issuing the income letters for expats?  As simple as here one day, gone the next.  

 

Oh, and the Robodebt fiasco.  Didn't stop them trying though, did it?  

 

40 minutes ago, Will27 said:

BTW, still waiting for that link where people were stopped from leaving the country due to their hecs debt.

You already have it.  They had to pay, or make arrangements to pay back the debt. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by KhunHeineken

[Will27]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Great.  Why?

 

The new laws haven't come in yet.  

 

I never said "any debt."  I suggested tax debt. 

 

There's a reason why they are casting the non resident for taxation purposes net wider.  They know they can scoop up a lot of people, possibly even pensioners.  

 

It's really easy, and hardly unworkable.  

 

You present at n Embassy for a passport renewal:

 

Staff:  "Sir, you must contact the ATO to resolve you tax debt matter before we can issue you a new passport." 

 

Expat:  "But, but, but. I need a new passport so I can stay in Thailand."

 

Staff:  "Have a good day, Sir."   

 

Remember when embassies stopped issuing the income letters for expats?  As simple as here one day, gone the next.  

 

Oh, and the Robodebt fiasco.  Didn't stop them trying though, did it?  

 

You already have it.  They had to pay, or make arrangements to pay back the debt. 

Where does it say that in the link you provided?

Seriously.

[KhunHeineken]

24 minutes ago, CygnusX1 said:

My interpretation is that it would not - to be a non resident, you first have to satisfy stage 1, and then you would also have to satisfy stage 2. However, I’m not a lawyer!

The second last paragraph of the holdingredlich site refers to Australian accommodation - concrete links to Australia will still be a factor in the new legislation.

I hope I’m right too, as back in the days when we could travel, I was out of Australia for more than 183 days of every year, and intend to do the same if I can ever travel again. How about someone who lives in Australia for 5 months a year, and spends 1 month in each of 7 different countries. If he’s not a resident of Australia, where is he a resident?

Ok.  The way I read it was the 183 days was the Primary Test, upon which the government will rely upon.  

 

I have no doubt there will be some test cases at court over the next few years, as wealthy individuals appeal their tax residency status.  Those cases may do us all a favor.

 

I think you are mixing up tax residency with citizenship.  You will always remain a citizen of Australia, but you can be a non resident of Australia for taxation purposes. 

 

I don't think the 183 day law is about where you stay overseas, just about the fact you are overseas for more than 183 days.  

[CygnusX1]

I agree that you can simultaneously be an Australian citizen and a non resident for tax purposes.

Surely you have to be a resident for tax purposes of at least one country, or maybe you can be stateless when it comes to tax residency? One for the lawyers.

[KhunHeineken]

22 minutes ago, scorecard said:

My thoughts too.

 

From my discussions with C'link when I applied for the oap and several later discussions talking to the C'link International office, they rely totally on the continuous live matching of immmigration departures and arrivals, which they take as their 'bible' for the location location of the pensioner.

Like I said, the noose is tightening.  There's a reason why they are bringing this in, and it's all to do with scooping up more tax money off easy targets.  

 

Just on your point, I know of a few cases where guys have applied for Permanent Residency in Australia for they Thai missus.  The government knew the Thai missus was outside of the country during the phone call.  That's how easy it is.  

[KhunHeineken]

22 minutes ago, CygnusX1 said:

We should be clear here that we’re talking about two different things - time spent in Australia for Centrelink benefits as against residency tests for taxation. Both of course are a huge concern.

Yes, but should the pension be deemed "income" it could be on the chopping block for non resident taxation rates if the recipient is outside of Australia for more than 183 days.