Rescue Diver Killed In Tham Luang Cave Complex

[b17]

1 hour ago, Brewster67 said:

You don't need tanks.... have you not seen bering sea gold?.... they have a fixed mask attached to a long hose which is connected to a rope and also has a communication line... the whole thing is called an umbilical and divers can stay under for hours at a time, not only do they have unlimited air as long as the compressor is running, but can also communicate....

 

personally i would have this setup already in place even if it is a last resort in case the cavern is in danger of flooding, then they are all dead anyway.

 

The flooded sections are not so long that each one can't be negotiated one at a time.... Even if you had to tie the kid's arms and legs together and pulled them through with ropes and other divers guiding them by pulling them through.

 

yes the kid will panic, but as he gets pulled through each section at a time his trust and confidence will grow.... i would start with the idiot coach as the guinea pig seeing as he got them into this mess in the fist place.

 

get all thirteen kids through the first section, then start getting them through the next and so on.

 

 

Your inflammatory comment,  "I would start with the idiot coach as the guinea pig seeing as he got them into this mess in the first place" reveals your misunderstanding of the situation. According to the Thai media and the parents of the children in the cave, the kids went into the cave ALONE, and the coach only went in after he received a phone call asking him to check on the kids. If he hadn't gone into the cave, and offered advice that CONTRIBUTED to the children's survival, it is almost certain that none of them would have survived the first stage of this drama. 

[Just1Voice]

14 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Given your background would you even consider extracting the kids underwater. What would you consider the % risk taking out 13, one at a time.

Seriously, trying to extract them underwater would be, in my opinion, a cause for many funerals.  These are 11 & 12 year old KIDS, most of whom probably don't even know how to swim properly.  Asking them to don scuba gear and go through the narrow passages, with no lighting, would lead to total panic.  During my training I watched young Marines totally freak out and panic in a SWIMMING POOL.  I don't have the answer as to how to get them out, but "swimming out" is definitely not the way, unless you're fond of funerals. 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Ks45672 said:

Thais Should have stepped back and let the brits or the Americans handle the whole thing... 

 

How many fully qualified cave divers are on site?

 

Each 2 way trip to the cave takes around 12 hours after which each diver will need a 12 hour recovery period to eat, sleep, shower and whatever.

 

Most of the Brits, Americans and other foreigners will not be able to speak enough Thai to reassuse the kids so, Yes Thais are necessary. To take the 13 survivors out will require an absolute minimum of 26 fresh and alert divers and possibly double that. Bear in mind that the divers will already have dived for 6 hours to get to the site.

 

I have no idea how long 1 air tank will last but IMHO each diver and survivor will need 2 tanks each on the way out. Who will be providing those replacement tanks along the route? Foreigners are do you think that the Thais can manage to do that on their own?

 

From what I have read so far the Thai divers, SEALs and the others have done a magnificent job so far in about a weeks intensive learning curve and I am filled with admiration for them.

 

The problems that the team is facing now is that the lord high muckety mucks and the politicians are making a determined effort to take over the rescue and collect all the glory. They have no idea what they are doing and I really hope that they are willing to stand up if this ends in tragedy.

 

They won't EVER do that of course, they will simply blame the rescue team if it goes wrong.

[JAZZDOG]

1 hour ago, Brewster67 said:

You don't need tanks.... have you not seen bering sea gold?.... they have a fixed mask attached to a long hose which is connected to a rope and also has a communication line... the whole thing is called an umbilical and divers can stay under for hours at a time, not only do they have unlimited air as long as the compressor is running, but can also communicate....

 

personally i would have this setup already in place even if it is a last resort in case the cavern is in danger of flooding, then they are all dead anyway.

 

The flooded sections are not so long that each one can't be negotiated one at a time.... Even if you had to tie the kid's arms and legs together and pulled them through with ropes and other divers guiding them by pulling them through.

 

yes the kid will panic, but as he gets pulled through each section at a time his trust and confidence will grow.... i would start with the idiot coach as the guinea pig seeing as he got them into this mess in the fist place.

 

get all thirteen kids through the first section, then start getting them through the next and so on.

 

 

This limestone mountain is saturated. Just as soon as it starts raining water pours out of the rock from the pressure above. This was explained from one of the divers from Phuket. In minutes the channels turn into the Colorado River rapids. Anyone, even the Brits that are in transit are in trouble at this point. Are you betting in the tropics that a 4-6 hour window will exist. Just look what happened when the kids got trapped originally when the cave was relatively dry.

[Sheryl]

May I know if the Thais are seeking the guidance of (world class) divers from the UK and USA?
 
Or do the Thais consider they have the necessary expertise to do the rescue without foreigners?!

UK expert cave divers are on site advising as are teams of experts from at least 7 countries.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Andaman Al]

RIP

 

Obviously some serious questions need addressing.

 

Why was a former Navy Seal diving?

 

Is it possible contaminated Air.? The logistics guys are doing many many tanks, it just needs one process to go wrong to get a tank full of contaminated Air. This becomes extremely toxic at depth (I know as I had one and nearly went into unconsciousness  at 20 Meters).

 

I have not looked at the geography of this situation. Does anyone know if they are diving at altitude? If so what height AMSL?

[Eligius]

1 minute ago, b17 said:

Your inflammatory comment,  "I would start with the idiot coach as the guinea pig seeing as he got them into this mess in the first place" reveals your misunderstanding of the situation. According to the Thai media and the parents of the children in the cave, the kids went into the cave ALONE, and the coach only went in after he received a phone call asking him to check on the kids. If he hadn't gone into the cave, and offered advice that CONTRIBUTED to the children's survival, it is almost certain that none of them would have survived the first stage of this drama. 

It is a confusing situation - with conflicting stories; but it seems to be that there are two coaches involved: one was the head coach, who was contacted by a concerned parent and who went looking for the children, but was unable to enter the cave due to the onset of flood water; the other was the assistant coach, who is in the cave now and who appears to have gone into the cave with the youngsters from the start. I don't think he should be pilloried at all: I think his actions (if the reports are true) show him to be a truly self-sacrificial and noble young man, giving up his own food to help the others, and teaching them how to stay calm and stay alive and healthy in that terrible situation. I admire him for this.

[Ks45672]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

How many fully qualified cave divers are on site?

 

Each 2 way trip to the cave takes around 12 hours after which each diver will need a 12 hour recovery period to eat, sleep, shower and whatever.

 

Most of the Brits, Americans and other foreigners will not be able to speak enough Thai to reassuse the kids so, Yes Thais are necessary. To take the 13 survivors out will require an absolute minimum of 26 fresh and alert divers and possibly double that. Bear in mind that the divers will already have dived for 6 hours to get to the site.

 

I have no idea how long 1 air tank will last but IMHO each diver and survivor will need 2 tanks each on the way out. Who will be providing those replacement tanks along the route? Foreigners are do you think that the Thais can manage to do that on their own?

 

From what I have read so far the Thai divers, SEALs and the others have done a magnificent job so far in about a weeks intensive learning curve and I am filled with admiration for them.

 

The problems that the team is facing now is that the lord high muckety mucks and the politicians are making a determined effort to take over the rescue and collect all the glory. They have no idea what they are doing and I really hope that they are willing to stand up if this ends in tragedy.

 

They won't EVER do that of course, they will simply blame the rescue team if it goes wrong.

Thais Should have stepped back to a supporting role  via translators and let real experts handle this 

Be honest

Who would you rather be rescued by in a life or death situation? 

[Ks45672]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

UK expert cave divers are on site advising as are teams of experts from at least 7 countries.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

But is anyone listening to them? 

Do the Thai navy speak much English? 

Was there not already a mix up that involved some passages being searched multiple times by different teams? 

[saminoz]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Not a big surprise, considering how many extra people are now staying with the boys.

I don't think that's as big a concern as the rising CO2 levels.  That would be the real killer.  I would have thought that a preliminary small bore shaft woud be drilled to evacuate the CO2 and allow for an oxygen supply.

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, monkfish said:

What about a small oxygenated capsule and drag them through.
They could be half sedated to prevent panic.

They would have to be heavy to make them neutrally buoyant, that is the weight would need to be 1kg for every Cubic Ltr of it's capacity so say a capsule 1.75m x .5m dia would have to weigh nearly 350Kg plus report that at some places are so tight divers have to remove there tanks to get through so negotiating a rigid capsule through maybe be impossible 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Basil B

[quadperfect]

Unless he died of health reasons like a heart attack or brain hemerage. This should alert the rescue party of the pure insanity it is to bring kids out same way as a pro diver who died trying.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I doubt the air supply option would be viable over the distance they are diving. I believe it's around a mile. No way they could drag a line that long anyway.

 

Today's news reports are saying about 1.7 kilometers total distance from the current forward command post to the boys' location -- several sections underwater, and several sections inbetween requiring long ground hikes.

 

But I haven't seen much clear detail in terms of how long any of the individual underwater sections are.

 

 

[Basil B]

1 minute ago, quadperfect said:

Unless he died of health reasons like a heart attack or brain hemerage. This should alert the rescue party of the pure insanity it is to bring kids out same way as a pro diver who died trying.

It has been reported that he ran out of air...

(reported on the BBC, but this could be hear say)

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Brewster67 said:

You don't need tanks.... have you not seen bering sea gold?.... they have a fixed mask attached to a long hose which is connected to a rope and also has a communication line... the whole thing is called an umbilical and divers can stay under for hours at a time, not only do they have unlimited air as long as the compressor is running, but can also communicate....

 

personally i would have this setup already in place even if it is a last resort in case the cavern is in danger of flooding, then they are all dead anyway.

 

The flooded sections are not so long that each one can't be negotiated one at a time.... Even if you had to tie the kid's arms and legs together and pulled them through with ropes and other divers guiding them by pulling them through.

 

yes the kid will panic, but as he gets pulled through each section at a time his trust and confidence will grow.... i would start with the idiot coach as the guinea pig seeing as he got them into this mess in the fist place.

 

get all thirteen kids through the first section, then start getting them through the next and so on.

 

 

 

In Bering sea scenario can you post a photo of the working gear that the divers wear and do they make those suits in chirdrens sizes? Are there any suits like that already in Thailand, how many would be needed, how heavy are the to wear and how long would children need to be trained to use them?

 

Beairing in mind that the distance from where the children are to the entrance is a long way how many kms of hose will be required and as there are quite a few narrow spaces  will the hoses restrict the passage way to the point that nobody can get past?

 

Are the divers working on a fairly flat surface or are they working in a tunnel where in some places divers have to take off their air bottles simply to fit through the gaps both vertically and horizontally.

 

For me having no experience of scuba, deep sea or cave diving I would leave all the plans in the hands of the guys with experience. If I were to go to the site and offer my service and experience the most that I could do would be to sweep up or make tea and they plenty of people for that.

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, Fex Bluse said:

You must admit that taking them there without the parents' or Park Management's knowledge was a lapse in judgement?

 

I don't care if they'd done it 500 times without problem. This logic of "it has not been a problem for me yet" is a central problem if Thai character. There is no way he should have taken them down there without people on notice in case something went wrong.

 

One would expect a guardian to be able to exercise better logic with or without .

Oh well. 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Today's news reports are saying about 1.7 kilometers total distance from the current forward command post to the boys' location -- several sections underwater, and several sections inbetween requiring long ground hikes.

 

But I haven't seen much clear detail in terms of how long any of the individual underwater sections are.

 

 

Which makes it worse. If they persuade a boy to go through the first underwater section and he is so terrified he refuses to do the next section, it'll just end up with the boys split up and complicate things. 

[jerry921]

I keep studying the drilling aspect, reading and learning more (since I started knowing almost nothing).

 

They can easily helicopter in a small rig capable of drilling a 4" hole for air, communications, food, etc.

 

A drill capable of drilling a 24" hole like was used to rescue the Chilean miners is mounted on a huge multi-wheel truck-thing that weighs 130,000 lbs and is too large to airlift. Only the two largest airlift planes in the world are capable of lifting something that big, and they are both russian (who aren't helping). It would need some semblance of a road to drive in to the drill site, it's way too big for any helicopter. This is the one that rescued the Chilean miners: http://www.schramminc.com/products/drilling-rigs/t130xd

 

As you can see, it's not like an oil drill where you first have to pour a platform and then erect something on top of it. I imagine you drive that thing in, it puts out its own arms for stability, and it's ready to drill pretty quickly once it arrives, but that's just from looking at it.

 

The depth of the boys and the depth the Chilean miners were at is similar. The miners were at 800 meters, the boys have been guessed to be at 700 to 900 meters, but they don't have an exact location so they're really guessing there. But not far different.

 

It might take a month to drill an extraction hole once the big rig was in place, it took a month and 4 days in Chili.

 

But the drilling in Chili was through hard rock. Limestone is soft, and it's not all Limestone, there's a lot of dirt in those 700 meters, so maybe a Thai rescue drill would go faster.

 

When the drilled the hole in Chili, they started using an existing 4" hole as a pilot hole, then drilled that out to an intermediate diameter and then drilled it out in a second step to 24". The rock was too tough to drill all in one go from 4 to 24". If limestone and dirt are softer, they might not have to do that in Thailand and drilling could take only half as long - once they got started.

 

In Chili they did not need to line the entire drill hole with anything, they only lined the first few meters. If the Limestone and soil in Thailand are softer, though, maybe that means they would have to line the whole pipe. But people have been assuming lining the whole thing would be necessary, and I think it remains to be said by an expert whether that's the case.

 

In Chili they did break all the way through to the miners with all 3 holes (the 4" hole, the intermediate-sized hole and the final hole. The miners had to do a lot of work to clear the debris that fell into their area to maintain access to the end of the pipe. That would be beyond the boys.

 

The fact that there is access to the boys changes a lot of things versus the Chilean situation. They can bring in locator equipment, divers to help with dealing with clearing the debris, etc.

 

But the space they are in is much smaller.

 

Overall, I am still skeptical that drilling a big hole for rescue is feasible, even if they can get a drill like that into the area. A small hole should be drilled anyway, as it might prove essential to maintaining the lives of the boys until the rainy season is over, which I suspect is the most likely scenario now.

[CGW]

14 minutes ago, Ks45672 said:

Thais Should have stepped back to a supporting role  via translators and let real experts handle this 

Be honest

Who would you rather be rescued by in a life or death situation? 

From a legal viewpoint, which they will be looking at, there has to be a Thai in charge, I very much doubt that anyone of the "foreign experts" would accept command as if it goes wrong they would be liable and most likely charged! Zero or Hero situation!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, josephbloggs said:

No, they haven't - they are not as narrow minded as you think.  There are still experts on site from many countries.

 

That's true in terms of their presence. But AFAICT, we really have no idea from the Thai news reports of what their (the non-Thai rescue/diving experts) opinions /  recommendations are as this has unfolded, and whether or not they're being heeded.

 

Ever since the initial discovery of the kids, AFAICT, the two Brits there have pretty much been on a self-enforced news blackout as to the details of their efforts.

 

[JestSetter]

Not sure if this was covered by anyone, but it was reported that volunteers had accidentally failed to take the water that was being pumped out away from the cave. Of course, the person in charge blamed the volunteers, not himself, for the mishap.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/984331/thailand-cave-rescue-football-team-trapped-Thamg-Luang

[Andaman Al]

2 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

I keep studying the drilling aspect, reading and learning more (since I started knowing almost nothing).

 

They can easily helicopter in a small rig capable of drilling a 4" hole for air, communications, food, etc.

 

A drill capable of drilling a 24" hole like was used to rescue the Chilean miners is mounted on a huge multi-wheel truck-thing that weighs 130,000 lbs and is too large to airlift. Only the two largest airlift planes in the world are capable of lifting something that big, and they are both russian (who aren't helping). It would need some semblance of a road to drive in to the drill site, it's way too big for any helicopter. This is the one that rescued the Chilean miners: http://www.schramminc.com/products/drilling-rigs/t130xd

 

As you can see, it's not like an oil drill where you first have to pour a platform and then erect something on top of it. I imagine you drive that thing in, it puts out its own arms for stability, and it's ready to drill pretty quickly once it arrives, but that's just from looking at it.

 

The depth of the boys and the depth the Chilean miners were at is similar. The miners were at 800 meters, the boys have been guessed to be at 700 to 900 meters, but they don't have an exact location so they're really guessing there. But not far different.

 

It might take a month to drill an extraction hole once the big rig was in place, it took a month and 4 days in Chili.

 

But the drilling in Chili was through hard rock. Limestone is soft, and it's not all Limestone, there's a lot of dirt in those 700 meters, so maybe a Thai rescue drill would go faster.

 

When the drilled the hole in Chili, they started using an existing 4" hole as a pilot hole, then drilled that out to an intermediate diameter and then drilled it out in a second step to 24". The rock was too tough to drill all in one go from 4 to 24". If limestone and dirt are softer, they might not have to do that in Thailand and drilling could take only half as long - once they got started.

 

In Chili they did not need to line the entire drill hole with anything, they only lined the first few meters. If the Limestone and soil in Thailand are softer, though, maybe that means they would have to line the whole pipe. But people have been assuming lining the whole thing would be necessary, and I think it remains to be said by an expert whether that's the case.

 

In Chili they did break all the way through to the miners with all 3 holes (the 4" hole, the intermediate-sized hole and the final hole. The miners had to do a lot of work to clear the debris that fell into their area to maintain access to the end of the pipe. That would be beyond the boys.

 

The fact that there is access to the boys changes a lot of things versus the Chilean situation. They can bring in locator equipment, divers to help with dealing with clearing the debris, etc.

 

But the space they are in is much smaller.

 

Overall, I am still skeptical that drilling a big hole for rescue is feasible, even if they can get a drill like that into the area. A small hole should be drilled anyway, as it might prove essential to maintaining the lives of the boys until the rainy season is over, which I suspect is the most likely scenario now.

Hmm

 

You just reminded me. I know a group of guys in the UK who were looking for investment to further develop a drill bit they have come up with. They do have working examples already. The drill bit uses a thermal lance ahead of the cutting tool and melts anything in front of it. It is going through rock like a knife through butter and can drill a hole 10 times faster than anything currently in use. They have calculated they can easily get a 5km deep hole. I am sure if they can cut an airhole or extraction hole in record time they will get all the money they want to take the drill into full commercial production. I will call them.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

28 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

RIP

 

Obviously some serious questions need addressing.

 

Why was a former Navy Seal diving?

 

 

Some folks earlier here were talking as if the dead diver had volunteered. But one of the prior news reports in this thread said he was "recalled" to SEAL duty to assist with the rescue efforts. Either way, he died trying to help save the lives of others.

 

[eeworldwide]

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/2018/07/06/billionaire-elon-musk-offers-help-for-cave-13/

 

 

This may be an answer to the drilling question.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

In Bering sea scenario can you post a photo of the working gear that the divers wear and do they make those suits in chirdrens sizes? Are there any suits like that already in Thailand, how many would be needed, how heavy are the to wear and how long would children need to be trained to use them?

 

Beairing in mind that the distance from where the children are to the entrance is a long way how many kms of hose will be required and as there are quite a few narrow spaces  will the hoses restrict the passage way to the point that nobody can get past?

 

Are the divers working on a fairly flat surface or are they working in a tunnel where in some places divers have to take off their air bottles simply to fit through the gaps both vertically and horizontally.

 

For me having no experience of scuba, deep sea or cave diving I would leave all the plans in the hands of the guys with experience. If I were to go to the site and offer my service and experience the most that I could do would be to sweep up or make tea and they plenty of people for that.

The helmets with constant air supply are apparently easy to use and require minimal training where they are used by tourists with no SCUBA training. Just put them on and breath normally. However, using one in a tourist resort with surface a few feet overhead is rather different to using any sort of breathing device in a tunnel, where hitting the Rock might dislodge the helmet.

Whatever, the problem would be bringing compressors and electric cables to power them through the flooded areas to each dry area. Can't use gasoline when air O2 is getting depleted already. It's, IMO, a non starter to use a single supply tube for all 1 mile or more.

[Andaman Al]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Either way, he died trying to help save the lives of others.

 

I understand that and do not question his sacrifice or courage. I am questioning the Management of the crisis situation. they have a responsibility to all the divers/rescuers to ensure that the safest possible environment is created to ensure that casualty numbers do not grow. You know that.

[CGW]

3 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

In Chili they did not need to line the entire drill hole with anything, they only lined the first few meters. If the Limestone and soil in Thailand are softer, though, maybe that means they would have to line the whole pipe. But people have been assuming lining the whole thing would be necessary, and I think it remains to be said by an expert whether that's the case.

IMO they would have to line the hole, drilling a hole through limestone/unconsolidated material is easy, keeping the hole is the difficult bit, for what it is worth I had 40 years drilling before retiring.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 minutes ago, CGW said:

From a legal viewpoint, which they will be looking at, there has to be a Thai in charge, I very much doubt that anyone of the "foreign experts" would accept command as if it goes wrong they would be liable and most likely charged! Zero or Hero situation!

 

I don't think the Thai government folks would EVER accept having foreigners in charge of this kind of operation.

 

That said, I think the important part is whether their advice/expertise is being heeded as to what's possible and not possible in terms of the diving and rescue access issues. And on that point, I think we have no idea.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

12 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

A small hole should be drilled anyway, as it might prove essential to maintaining the lives of the boys until the rainy season is over, which I suspect is the most likely scenario now.

Agree with both points.

[Sheryl]

14 minutes ago, Basil B said:

It has been reported that he ran out of air...

(reported on the BBC, but this could be hear say)

I think BBC is taking that from the press conference official announcement that has been translated as saying he died form "lack of oxygen" or "lack of air" (probably said air but that could mean oxygen or air, usual Thai terminology is not precise in that point, and rememeber those giving these press briefings are politicians, not technical experts). Cannot be sure of that translation and also need to understand the way causes of death tend to be understood by lay people and reported.

 

Unless an obvious equipment malfunction was identified already, the cause of death will not be known until/unless an autopsy is done, if then (quality of Thai autopsies often not the best and by the time translated into English and reported in the media, essentially  worthless)