Greenhouses Design

[user343434]

Hi all,

 

since I am more into the Greenhouse designs and thought I have found the ultimate one to overcome the heat I am ruff at the 10Mil to build it (95m x 100m) 

Then I cut where the cost where possible (Mainly swap from "Made in Germany - Made in Holland" to best "China Production" and Thai galvanised Steel and here we have now about 2 Million the go.

Design is done with a lot of help from relatives in the Netherlands thinking summer and forgetting cold winters. (Sure we wont need a heater inside..)

Cooling = Aquaponics used as accumulator supported by cooling out of the ground.. We tried vaporizing cooling self made, but 3/4 the year it worked not sufficient enough.  

 

BUT LoS is more.. Insects, burning heat, banging winds and so on..

So its here the place to ask:

what is you favorite design and what experiences you made regarding collapse in the wind, blinded/cracked Polycarbon sheets, foil houses, pests, burned leafs, pre cooked plants, cooling fail, water, mold, locals knifing through the walls and harvested what was supposed to be yours or just neighbor's buffalo invited itself and called some mates for a greenhouse stampede with salad buffet.....   and and and.. whatever gave you the nightmares?

may be good to now what we have not thought about before we heat up the welding machines.. 

 

OR just: why is your Greenhouse the ultimate design, sure that frame below is a suggestion but there is missing a lot...

[carlyai]

Hi I'm in the design phase myself.

I have seen a commercial design at an Agricultural show. So if you have any Ag shows near you have a look.

Their greenhouse design is similar in shape to yours and has large extraction fans on the side, and evaporation cooling on the other side. It has processor controlled cooling windows at the top and again processor controlled shade cloth that can roll out like a ceiling when triggered by a temperature sensor.

If you have any chicken farms (large) near you have a look at their design for heat reduction. A friend of mine is building a large chicken shed and it seems that it employs heat reduction techniques like you would use in a greenhouse.

I'm going past a big greenhouse on Monday, so will try and take some pictures.

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[kickstart]

This subject of greenhouses has come up on here before, and as some else has said, they are for cooler climates, ie growing tomatoes in a cool English summer.

Here in LOS, the daily temperature is 30c Took-Won, every day, can not see the point of them, Thailand has to be the only country where you need to cool a greenhouse, with the expenses of installation and running costs of cooing equipment cannot see it paying ,unless  you are someone  like CPF .

As the op said strong winds and stroppy buffaloes will give you more hassle. 

Look forward to carlyai photos, to prove me wrong?

Would have thought a good metal frame with shade cloth would do the job, keep the gremlins out, and at a fraction of the cost.

[carlyai]

This subject of greenhouses has come up on here before, and as some else has said, they are for cooler climates, ie growing tomatoes in a cool English summer.
Here in LOS, the daily temperature is 30c Took-Won, every day, can not see the point of them, Thailand has to be the only country where you need to cool a greenhouse, with the expenses of installation and running costs of cooing equipment cannot see it paying ,unless  you are someone  like CPF .
As the op said strong winds and stroppy buffaloes will give you more hassle. 
Look forward to carlyai photos, to prove me wrong?
Would have thought a good metal frame with shade cloth would do the job, keep the gremlins out, and at a fraction of the cost.

Well you're correct in that the heat is the problem.
The reason I want a greenhouse is to have the stuff I grow in a controlled environment. It's a challenge.

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[khwaibah]

14 minutes ago, kickstart said:

This subject of greenhouses has come up on here before, and as some else has said, they are for cooler climates, ie growing tomatoes in a cool English summer.

Here in LOS, the daily temperature is 30c Took-Won, every day, can not see the point of them, Thailand has to be the only country where you need to cool a greenhouse, with the expenses of installation and running costs of cooing equipment cannot see it paying ,unless  you are someone  like CPF .

As the op said strong winds and stroppy buffaloes will give you more hassle. 

Look forward to carlyai photos, to prove me wrong?

Would have thought a good metal frame with shade cloth would do the job, keep the gremlins out, and at a fraction of the cost.

 

Add to that the Brio Melon Farm Surin which i understand is backed by a top Surin politician money. Fantastic melons and over 50 commercial grade air-con greenhouse.  https://www.facebook.com/BRIOMELON/ GPS 14.9095692255, 103.508669791

 

[user343434]

There are Greenhouses just for the reason to grow lettuce and heat sensible plants to a certain resistance.

Forget Spinach and Apples or others with areal dormancy period. 

But yes, you can cool Greenhouses with cooling Pads, as long the humidity is under 70%..

I found a way to use them even when the Humidity of the rain-season makes the air is so dense that you almost can carry it in a bucket but therefore I NEED a Greenhouse, Aquaponics and some measurements of precaution where I spent quite a dime for and its still in the development.. 

The melon farm is a good starter to repeat this tread.

I think the last tread 2013 so there are sure new subjects for Cool Greenhouses that deserve to make it a new start. 

Don't forget how many billion people are more on this world since then. Modern farming becomes more Important that ever before or haven't you seen that you fridge getting more and more expensive to fill? 

 

Back to the Greenhouse: What are your experiences? 

[hadders]

Check out a website 'hellofarming'. They are a Thai company specializing in Greenhouses for a hot climate.

A lot of growers up here are using them.

https://en.hellofarming.com/14486129/home

[JungleBiker]

Dutch experts from Wageningen University in cooperation with Malaysian researchers came up with this design for a passively vented tropical greenhouse: http://www.hortidaily.com/article/12647/Asia-New-Alma-greenhouse-for-Thai-growers-of-Take-Me-Home I think it has a bigger area of roof ventilation than your design. 

 

Fan and pad cooling is not going to work very well if you can't close the roof vent. But, in any case, these days, a fogging system is considered superior to a fan and pad system. The fogging system should be a fogging system not a misting system (the difference is in the size of droplets <50 microns vs >50 microns). 

 

The highest technology these days is a closed greenhouse using mechanical cooling (i.e. air conditioning using refrigerants) rather than evaporative cooling using water (e.g, fan and pad, fogging). Good but not cheap. 

 

This document (also from your compatriots at WUR) is full of information about the complex science and technology behind designing a greenhouse for hot humid climates: http://www.tari.gov.tw/df_ufiles/b/The Design of Greenhouse in Sub-tropical areas-from Crop to Economics_Bas Speetjens.pdf

 

 

 

[khwaibah]

16 minutes ago, JungleBiker said:

The highest technology these days is a closed greenhouse using mechanical cooling (i.e. air conditioning using refrigerants) rather than evaporative cooling using water (e.g, fan and pad, fogging). Good but not cheap. 

 

Evaporative cooling is as useless as tits on a boar in a high humidity climate which Thailand is.

[carlyai]

Thanks junglebiker for your article.

I appreciate you knowledgeable input.

Question: Why do greenhouse designers favour cemicircular roofs and not gable roofs, if using clear polycarbonate roof sheets?

I think for me I'm leaning towards, anti drip, ultraviolet protected polycarbonate sheeting (with a layer of shade cloth underneath that can be deployed when necessary), in a modified gable style roof.

The larger side roof span will be for the greenhouse fed with nuetriements from my fish room, and the smaller size roof will be normal insulated colourbond type for the chooks.

Space is my limiting factor. In the fish room I have space for 6 1000 L tanks.

I went to Roiet yesterday and saw the greenhouses, same style as that farmer post. I missed them on the way back so didn't take any pics.

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[JungleBiker]

4 hours ago, khwaibah said:

 

Evaporative cooling is as useless as tits on a boar in a high humidity climate which Thailand is.

 

Certainly the effectiveness of evaporative cooling depends on the ambient humidity. 

 

I wasn't recommending evaporative cooling but then neither was I writing it off. 

 

The hottest time of the year in Thailand is also the time when humidity is fairly low (at least in locations away from the sea or large bodies of water). So evaporative cooling may be worth considering, depending on various factors, like which crop you want to grow. 

[JungleBiker]

2 hours ago, carlyai said:

Thanks junglebiker for your article.

I appreciate you knowledgeable input.

Question: Why do greenhouse designers favour cemicircular roofs and not gable roofs, if using clear polycarbonate roof sheets?

I think for me I'm leaning towards, anti drip, ultraviolet protected polycarbonate sheeting (with a layer of shade cloth underneath that can be deployed when necessary), in a modified gable style roof.

The larger side roof span will be for the greenhouse fed with nuetriements from my fish room, and the smaller size roof will be normal insulated colourbond type for the chooks.

Space is my limiting factor. In the fish room I have space for 6 1000 L tanks.

I went to Roiet yesterday and saw the greenhouses, same style as that farmer post. I missed them on the way back so didn't take any pics.

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Sorry Carlyai, I don't have answers to your questions because I have not looked at polycarbonate covered greenhouses, only plastic films.

 

 

 

 

 

[thoongfoned]

6 hours ago, khwaibah said:

 

Evaporative cooling is as useless as tits on a boar in a high humidity climate which Thailand is.

got a pig farm with evap/fans. reading taken this week. humidity 94.1 outside temp (shade) 34 inside temp near pad  (front)25.5 back farm temp near fan 63m from pad 27.2 (farm is full of animals) to make the farm cooler  that day we would need to increase fan speed

[JungleBiker]

4 hours ago, thoongfoned said:

 inside temp near pad  (front)25.5 back farm temp near fan 63m from pad 27.2 

 

That's one reason why fogging is superior to fan and pad: you don't get the temperature (and humidity) gradient. You also use less energy.  

 

 

[carlyai]

@JungleBiker do you recon the plastic is good and strong enough for the rain downpours?

I don't know as I haven't used either, but if it's non drip, good anti altraviolet and strong, then probably a lot cheaper than the polycarbonate I was thinking of.

You used it successfully?

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[user343434]

The roof opening will create a forced circulation. Unfortunately not that much of a difference we need for e.g. farming head lettuce (they bolt before they form heads)

My relatives say with 34 degrees temp in Holland's summer they archive just a drop of max 3 degrees. 

 

Evaporate cooling works if you keep the humidity outside means to have the pad only circulating the inside air.

Due to the cooler air the humidity will set down on the walls (hence reduces humidity in the Greenhouse air) and you need to find a way that the condensed water is not dripping on your plants which could lower the quality. 

Here is need for trials and research but to build a greenhouse just to find out what goes wrong is a bit of a pre- investment.

 

Plastic vs Poly-carbonate sheets is clear the poly-carbonate sheeting the winner as they are double walled that helps a bit the keep the cooling inside and sure can take quite a punch regarding wind and rain. Life span 5 vs 15 years helps calculating the costs.. 

Another main factor regarding costs is:

First is to look what is in the shelves of the supermarket near you.. May be open walls and plastic will do it to produce local greens, 

but when your Salad is every day packed in a bag with different brands/producer names its clear an indication they buy what they can get to keep stock so it might be worth to produce in a proper Greenhouse near them and compare the higher investment with the saved transportation costs..  

[user343434]

13 hours ago, JungleBiker said:

Dutch experts from Wageningen University in cooperation with Malaysian researchers came up with this design for a passively vented tropical greenhouse: http://www.hortidaily.com/article/12647/Asia-New-Alma-greenhouse-for-Thai-growers-of-Take-Me-Home I think it has a bigger area of roof ventilation than your design. 

 

Fan and pad cooling is not going to work very well if you can't close the roof vent. But, in any case, these days, a fogging system is considered superior to a fan and pad system. The fogging system should be a fogging system not a misting system (the difference is in the size of droplets <50 microns vs >50 microns). 

 

The highest technology these days is a closed greenhouse using mechanical cooling (i.e. air conditioning using refrigerants) rather than evaporative cooling using water (e.g, fan and pad, fogging). Good but not cheap. 

 

This document (also from your compatriots at WUR) is full of information about the complex science and technology behind designing a greenhouse for hot humid climates: http://www.tari.gov.tw/df_ufiles/b/The Design of Greenhouse in Sub-tropical areas-from Crop to Economics_Bas Speetjens.pdf

 

 

 

Here we go, they archived 4 degrees difference with the sawtooth system. 

Must have cost a fortune in development to get there.

That proves you want to stand off the crowd speaking vegetable products you have to bring first cash with you and if you fail you bring a 2nd same size cash box and build on lessons learned again or declare bankruptcy... 

Same rule like in the earlier times of cultivating the moorlands:

The first generation gets the death, the second generation gets the misery and the third generation gets the bread.. 

Lucky we are developing and for so long we are buying our veggies at Tesco.. 

 

[JungleBiker]

12 hours ago, carlyai said:

@JungleBiker do you recon the plastic is good and strong enough for the rain downpours?

I don't know as I haven't used either, but if it's non drip, good anti altraviolet and strong, then probably a lot cheaper than the polycarbonate I was thinking of.

You used it successfully?

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Plastic films are the most common material for greenhouse covers around the world, including Thailand, mainly because it is cheaper than other alternatives.

 

My wife has a greenhouse covered with polyethylene film. It does it's job of keeping her plants dry and it has survived years of downpours. 

 

The are many different kinds of plastic film - some are very sophisticated (e.g. combining several layers with each layer having different properties) and some are very expensive (such as ETFE film which costs as much as glass https://www.agcchem.com/products/specialty-materials/f-clean-greenhouse-film). 

 

I may be mistaken but I'm not sure if dripping is much of a problem around here? I think condensation is most likely to happen in cooler countries where you heat the greenhouse in the winter, and have the vents closed to keep the warmth inside, and therefore have high humidity inside the house. And then you have the cold air outside, so the humidity in the greenhouse condenses on the inner surface of the cold plastic (or glass, etc). Around here, if you had a greenhouse with some kind of cooling system then any condensation would most likely occur on the outside of the greenhouse. If you didn't have a cooling system but had netting on the walls (to exclude insects) then you'd probably have enough ventilation to avoid any condensation. 

 

 

 

 

 

[JungleBiker]

10 hours ago, See Will said:

 

Due to the cooler air the humidity will set down on the walls (hence reduces humidity in the Greenhouse air) and you need to find a way that the condensed water is not dripping on your plants which could lower the quality. 

 

 

Condensation occurs when warm humid air comes into contact with a cold surface. Like you see on the outside of a cold glass of beer. I think what you describe is applicable to the Netherlands but not around here. 

 

[JungleBiker]

10 hours ago, See Will said:

Plastic vs Poly-carbonate sheets is clear the poly-carbonate sheeting the winner as they are double walled that helps a bit the keep the cooling inside and sure can take quite a punch regarding wind and rain. Life span 5 vs 15 years helps calculating the costs.. 

 

 

Common practice for cooled greenhouses in warm climates is to use two layers of plastic film kept apart (inflated) by small blowers. I don't have the prices but I believe this is cheaper than polycarbonate and provides more insulation due to the larger gap between the inner and outer layers. 

[JungleBiker]

10 hours ago, See Will said:

 

...but when your Salad is every day packed in a bag with different brands/producer names its clear an indication they buy what they can get to keep stock so it might be worth to produce in a proper Greenhouse near them and compare the higher investment with the saved transportation costs..  

 

There's now a growing trend around the world to grow leafy greens in indoor farms (no natural light, just LEDs) located in or near large cities. It has already started in Bangkok.  

[JungleBiker]

10 hours ago, See Will said:

Here we go, they archived 4 degrees difference with the sawtooth system. 

Must have cost a fortune in development to get there.

That proves you want to stand off the crowd speaking vegetable products you have to bring first cash with you and if you fail you bring a 2nd same size cash box and build on lessons learned again or declare bankruptcy... 

Same rule like in the earlier times of cultivating the moorlands:

The first generation gets the death, the second generation gets the misery and the third generation gets the bread.. 

Lucky we are developing and for so long we are buying our veggies at Tesco.. 

 

 

There are already many successful greenhouse vegetable operations in Thailand.

 

Here is one in Chiang Mai run by your compatriots: 

http://takemehometomatoes.com/th/

I saw their tomatoes in Big C the other day. Selling for higher prices than other tomatoes.

A photo of one of their greenhouses at the above site looks similar to your design - fixed ridge vent.

They also promote the Alma greenhouse that I mentioned in my first post.  

 

Another, focussed on capsicumm/sweet/bell peppers is Lanchang Farm, also in Chiang Mai...

http://www.lanchangfarm.com

Originally set up by an Israeli guy but now owned by Malee.

Their greenhouses also look like your design. 

 

And for a more high tech greenhouse, in Prachinburi, with fan and pan cooling, external and internal screens, high gutters, etc, see just after 10 minutes into the video here https://web.facebook.com/dasadaflower/videos/1752705084766758/

It's being used to grow chrysanthemums (yes, not veg).  

 

 

 

[JungleBiker]

Regardless of vents and cooling systems, and anti-dripping, I reckon 2 things worth considering are (a) light diffusion and (b) gutter height. 

 

Some greenhouse covers are designed to diffuse the light. This gives better plant performance, especially for tall growing crops like tomatoes.  Diffusion can also be achieved by applying a special coating (paint) on the outside of your greenhouse. Go to page 60 of a free publication called "The bright side of growing" available via the website of Dutch company www.redusystems.com to read about diffuse light. This company is the leader for greenhouse coatings. 

 

A higher gutter height = higher roof = a greater volume of air above the crop. The volume of air acts like a buffer between the crop and the hot air outside. For warm climates a gutter height of 4.5 or 5.0 metres is considered desirable. The downside is the higher cost for the materials and construction. 

 

 

[carlyai]

I found another pamphlet on Thai greenhouses. This is the one I picked up from the Kong Khean Ag show.

I read that the polycarbonate sheets difuse the light and on preliminary research they are priced at B 2000 per 6 m sheet.

All good information thanks.



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[CLW]

I read through all the replies and would like to give my comments and thoughts as well.

First, when talking about greenhouse in Thailand I mostly would call it net house as it is usually only with a closed roof and net on the sidewalls. Main purpose is to protect from heavy rain, strong sunshine and to keep insects out.

What other mentioned already there a few closed system greenhouse but I would like to see the economical calculations for this. Unless you are growing some high value crops for industry or medicine (not talking about food) I can't see to get a positive turnover with this systems.

Personally I have seen closed greenhouse with evaporation cooling for seed production at Chia Thai company. And only for certain crops. Like I said already, can't see the economical reason for this type of greenhouse.

For livestock this system have a benefit as animals are more sensitive to temperatures than plants. Just imagine the difference of the human body from 38 to 42 degrees. It's only 4 degrees but means a lot. I think you see the point.

Evaporative cooling works only to a certain extent depending on the ambient relative humidity. So it also depends on the location.

With any cooling, evaporated or misting, you have an increased humidity in your greenhouse which also increases certain diseases.

If you really need a controlled environment you should look for a closed structure like plant factories. They use LED lighting and conventional air conditioning to control the ambient parameters. If such an investment is economic in Thailand, I doubt it. Not to mention the ecological impact regarding electricity consumption.

Or you reduce your expectations and built some kind of standard greenhouse with plastic roof, ventilation and net walls. I would say at least in certain periods/seasons of the year you can grow 90% of all cash crops available in Thailand with this system.

[user343434]

Seen on a long term pc is the winner as it lasts longer and has better properties. 

On my last job i was in Indonesia near Jakarta and there was a Farmer with an equal size AP production Greenhouse I plan and he told me what I already thought. Its the primary investment that keep farmers off using pc but the advantages are way ahead.

 

For my pumps i wanted to stay off China and asked Ruangsangthai in Buriram as they have a great reputation according to Google.

Unfortunately they seem not interested in new customers who want to buy 40 pumps in one go and may be lots of other stuff and replied something like: 

"Come over, put the money on the table and we help you to find the right pump" but offered also generators incl Installation in the same mail. (Lucky, I have a bought a brand new Cummings 45 KV with auto start system out of a bankruptcy auction for very small money in Bangkok)

After this unsatisfying reply (it was a farang answering) we closed Ruangsangthai for further negotiations out.

We are not making a concept like the money on the table thing, a project like this needs a clear investment plan like I use to do offshore for many years. Every Satang for Bolt and drip of silicone has to be turned up and down and this can only be done with the right choice of business partners and suppliers.. 

 

Great replies came from China also regarding PC Sheets with Honeycomb design. About 30% cheaper than Thai Companies ask for common double wall sheets even incl delivery.

Pumps came a great offer from Australia but was beaten also here from an offer with good warranty from Taiwan where a companion works at the moment. 

Cinder-blocks 65000 needed went in two years almost half price from a small family size Manufacturer in Rayong.

Floating Rafts are sourced..

 

@ CLW

hellofarming seem the only Thai company who has a huge and professional interest to be part of the planning. He told me straight away that he fully understood the start date and that a good concept has to be done in beforehand. A quotation follows soon..

So we see there are also some bigger companies in Thailand that don't turn themselves into s service desert. 

 

 

 

[carlyai]

I've found a good source of information comes Robert at Aquaponics Thailand.
He builds large AP projects.

I can't understand a company not being interested in supplying that many pumps.

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[CLW]

I've found a good source of information comes Robert at Aquaponics Thailand.
He builds large AP projects.

I can't understand a company not being interested in supplying that many pumps.

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I've visited AP Thailand and Robert 4 years ago, that was the last time.
Personally I don't like his attitude and to me it seems he is blowing a lot of hot air about his big projects though that might have changed since 4 years.
Also his prices were far to expensive at that time. It seems to me he is targeting farang that can't buy things from Thai businesses because of the language barrier.
But everyone should make his own experiences. This is just my opinion.

[user343434]

I have visited Aquaponics Thailand and unfortunately I came with my mate and didn't made an appointment.

Robert was out for a project and his wife was sitting outside and asked us if we made an appointment before.

I had not the feeling that she was disinterested in any point and asked us to come in for a walk around even she had visitors and they were eating.

 

The reasons we were in Bangkok was to source some little thinks like raft trays, plant sponges and pots for our home trial system but we found out Aquaponics Thailand has such things not in stock.

But still it was an interesting day and the walk around was good 2 hrs provided us with detailed Info's as far she could answer best to her knowledge.

 

The system they have in her roof garden is in many parts identical to what we have in our backyard and also the set up with blue pipes approved that others are thinking the same way that we do. 

Aquaponics Thailand has the same space, light and temperature issue as we have in our backyard trial system and because of this the confidence to meet here a professional company is not really reflecting this but regarding friendliness and the willing to help two thumbs up at least for his wife. 

 

My plans to visit Thailand Aquaponics again was as I befriended a grower and dealer in Indonesia with bigger "showrooms" and gather most info from there. I flew a few times to Indo and brought in my ideas as well so we made it to a taking and giving deal.

Last year I was building for him an inline filter that works mechanically without using electricity and since then his water was permanently balanced, a problem he was struggling almost 4 years with during the different seasons. This idea was based on some ship sewage systems and reduces the wasted spaces.

The good thing was I never had built one, as it was only one of my ideas but surprisingly it was working far above any expectations.

The same grower is also the one who praises Polycarbon sheets as greenhouse cover and recommends to close the Greenhouse completely (he would not even put sidewall nets in) and use his ideas of cooling system which need a bit of modification in the statics of my plans.

 

Another item of this thread:

Should in a sawtooth system the roof opening face all in off stream positions of the predominant wind direction or pointing opposite to each other. Or at least the first and last roof opening towards each other so that a little aerodynamic is created for surprising wind blasts from the wrong direction? (See drawing)

 

[user343434]

found just another page,

 

actually I was looking at it for many times and thought it's only a saw tooth design advertised as the non plus ultra,

until I spotted the small black line which shows an extra roof inside the greenhouse.

Makes sense to me and can be built by using simple foil as this is not part of any weather impact outside..  

I guess I need some new glasses LOL