Saudi Arabia expelling Canadian ambassador, freezing trade with Canada

[pegman]

4 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

The costs for Canada are growing.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/08/07/canada-saudi-arabia-feud-could-suck-billions-out-of-canadian-economy_a_23497858/?uccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNhLw&guce_referrer_cs=_Rypu07XFjodGN8UwlwiNA

 

I was incorrect when I referenced the number of  Saudi students as 12,000. The CBC was reporting 20,000 in total, but the universities have said 16,000. Their immediate withdrawal and cancellation of Saudi funding will decimate Canada's universities. There is no immediate replacement for that funding and because of that, Canadian students looking for bursaries and grants for the next year will not be getting them as the  tens of millions of dollars provided by the Saudis won't be there.

 

Who's going to replace the $100 million of  core agricultural exports to the KSA from Canada because they are no longer allowed.? There is another $100 million of processed foods not going there.

 

1000+ Canadian oil workers  are waiting to learn if they will be in the first wave of  labour permit cancellations. Where are they to go to gain  these wages?

 

Bloomberg reports that Saudi Arabia has invested about $6 billion in Canadian businesses since 2006. How will Trudeau replace this if the Saudis have a fire sale? The Saudis hold Canadian debt and can dump it.

 

The KSA is about to undertake a massive diversification of its economy including privatization of its oil industry, Canada was well placed to take on part of the  privatization. Now its financial institutions and specialists  are excluded. Gone are the economic opportunities. Gone are the  hundreds of millions of fees that would have been gained by the Canadian financial services sector.

 

The  attempt to bully the KSA is pure hypocrisy because of Canada's refusal to take a tougher line with Iran. It has been remarkably quiet with Pakistani abuses, and it has said  nothing on the abuse rampant in Africa  and done nothing about  Haiti. Trudeau has done nothing to help the Canadian families of victims of the Iranian regime. Yet, he bleats on about  his hyped womens rights issues. This was his miscalculation when his strategists sought to give him a PR opportunity. he thought he could push around a Saudi prince and he  was wrong.

 

Wait until   medical care suffers when the  medical residents and fellows  withdraw. You can't replace a research fellow at a teaching hospital overnight, especially when  there are only a handful on staff. Specialty units are already strapped for specialists because of budget costs and now the provincial  healthcare systems will lose tens of millions in income and qualified personnel. Brilliant. Wait until the  northern  and First Nation communities lose access to these specialists.

 

So far, none of the people  supporting this fabricated dispute with the KSA  has addressed the economic and social  costs of this dispute. Worse still, they offer no solution for the thousands of workers and their thousands of dependents who depend upon the  KSA related economic opportunities. Yes, this plays well to the usual crowd, but it will cost the  Liberal government big in southern Ontario, in the regions where where the oil workers are sourced like Newfoundland, on Bay street which will lose opportunities,  and even in Quebec , the home of SNC Lavalin which has a large contract with the KSA. Another lost  market for Canada's embattled auto industry too. And for what?  A blogger who just couldn't shut up. This was going to be settled, but no, Trudeau had to try for political points.

 

And btw, the Canadian government is now finding out the hard way how  the big boys do it because both the USA,  and  the UK have said, sorry bro, can't help. The EU  hasn't helped either.  The end result is that Canada is now begging the UAE for assistance. That help will come at a cost. Most likely the UAE airlines will gain greater access to Canadian airports because of Canada's desperation. More damage to Canadian economic interests thanks to Trudeau.

 

The KSA isn't perfect, but picking a fight in this manner and insulting the ruler is just wrong.  The crown Prince is  intelligent, educated and more wily than  Trudeau and his urban clique. He has to work in a very  difficult  environment  balancing radicals against fundamentalists. He should be helped to making the KSA better, not insulted and  undercut by  western bullies who do not understand the  man's predicament.

555, good thing Canadians in general are not spineless wimps. There are a few ^^^^^^^^^ but not so many as to worry about. If that state sponser of terrorists wants to  put the screws to students who presumably will lose their $$ deposits that's on them. More spots for Canadian kids or Chinese. It seems the nut bar is going to take his people out of Canadian hospitals too. What a low life. Any oil or gas workers needing work should head to Alberta where you can have a Blue after your shift. Same guy who jailed then shock-down businessmen and his own family members for $121b.  The Thug Prince  might be getting to chicken little here ^^^^^^ but most of us say bring it on and let's hope for an Arab Spring comes to the Kingdom soon.

[Morch]

On 8/6/2018 at 9:50 PM, Sydebolle said:

Maybe it is high time to hang Saudi Arabia outside to dry. If nobody buys their oil for, say, three to six months, the whole circus will collapse. The fidels need the West more than vice versa and it is time to show, who is who on the banana boat. 

Pissing onto Canada while creating havoc in Yemen - what do these idiots at the helm think, if at all? 

 

Other than this not going to happen, and not all countries sharing the same civil/human-rights notions - is the "circus collapsing" really a good thing? Another ME country going down the drain - complete with religious nutters and a wider effect on oil prices doesn't sound all that attractive.

[JCauto]

8 minutes ago, pegman said:

555, good thing Canadians in general are not spineless wimps. There are a few ^^^^^^^^^ but not so many as to worry about. If that state sponser of terrorists wants to  put the screws to students who presumably will lose their $$ deposits that's on them. More spots for Canadian kids or Chinese. It seems the nut bar is going to take his people out of Canadian hospitals too. What a low life. Any oil or gas workers needing work should head to Alberta where you can have a Blue after your shift. Same guy who jailed then shock-down businessmen and his own family members for $121b.  The Thug Prince  might be getting to chicken little here ^^^^^^ but most of us say bring it on and let's hope for an Arab Spring comes to the Kingdom soon.

True dat. The real snowflakes are the pearl-clutchers on the Right, they're scared of everything except White folks. 

[Morch]

On 8/6/2018 at 10:58 AM, bristolboy said:

A very spoiled rich kid is now running Saudi Arabia.

 

Reacting badly to instances deemed as interference in domestic affairs is nothing new with regard to Saudi Arabia (or other ME countries, for that matter). Regardless of your standing crusade, I doubt this is uniquely associated with the Saudi Arabian Crown Prince.

[bristolboy]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Reacting badly to instances deemed as interference in domestic affairs is nothing new with regard to Saudi Arabia (or other ME countries, for that matter). Regardless of your standing crusade, I doubt this is uniquely associated with the Saudi Arabian Crown Prince.

There's reacting badly and there's reacting disastrously. Foreign investment in KSA actually declined in 2017. There is now serious talk that sales of a piece of Aramco will be called off due lack of interest. What rational investor seeking profits would want to invest in a country ruled by a mercurial and petulant manchild?  3 independent and respected news sources report that MbS nearly invaded Qatar! MbS is clearly steering Saudi Arabia over an economic cliff.

 

[Canuckabroad]

33 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't know how familiar you are with academic administration, but replacing 16K paying students is no easy feat. If you have any notions this wouldn't mess related finances, or wouldn't cost anything, you're much mistaken. Also, doubt you've got a handle on what the "vast majority" of students views are regarding this specific case.

 

 

As for your assertions regarding this badly effecting Saudi Arabia's trade - again, doubtful. Someone else will pick up the deals, and continue the policy of not commenting on the country's civil right issues.

 

Oil workers not having trouble finding work? Really? Reading the relevant sections of this forum seems to go against this notion.

 

There was no veiled threat - related events were presented on previous posts, SA already acted and apologized on that instance. Keep harping on that one, though, it might just stick. Not that it's too clear how "inciting nationalism" is a concern here. As for the offered bogus analogy, it seems to suggest that Canada's aim is to get back doing business with SA - not quite the principled stance, then?

I disagree with your rebuttals but I won't quibble over them because they're matters of opinion, and not as outlandish as geriatrickid's original assertions.  The opinions I've expressed on the Saudi prince and the damage he's doing to his country's business reputation have also been expressed by every business analyst who's written on this situation over the last 72 hours.  But if you disagree with them then you will disregard them too.  And you're right that countries morally similar to Saudi Arabia will continue to trade amongst themselves.

 

But I will assert that most Canadians (excluding perhaps Sunni Muslims and die-hard contrarians) either couldn't care less about Saudi Arabia's retaliatory actions, or would actually prefer to cut all ties with that repressive country.  That country cause nothing but trouble, and this new prince's actions so far have shown him to be no better (and perhaps worse) than his predecessors.

 

Some other posters have said that we shouldn't call out the Saudis without calling out Iran, Pakistan, China, etc.  The truth is we do.  The difference is they don't throw tantrums over tweets.

 

Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressive countries in the modern world, and their treatment of women in particular is a blot on humanity.  I fully expect to read some retorts that point to Canada's (or other western countries') individual failings and shortcomings.  But there is no possible moral equivalency when compared to Saudi Arabia.

 

[geriatrickid]

5 hours ago, stevenl said:

There we go, admitting your issues with this are due to your Israel ideas, therefore anti Iran, therefore pro SA.And that is what it comes down to, a fight over hegenomy of the middle east.

This is not about Israel. It is a double standard and hypocrisy. Trudeau has talked of  restoring political ties with Iran, despite the repeated deaths of decent Canadians at the hands of the Iranian government.  Here's an example. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/09/let-grieving-wife-of-dead-environmentalist-leave-iran-son-pleads

 

3 hours ago, Canuckabroad said:

What a load of BS.  Every point you made is a stretch.

 

- 16K students leaving Canadian colleges and universities will not "decimate" anything.  Do you think those schools have trouble filling seats?  What this means is 16K wait-listed students are going to get last-minute acceptances.  The vast majority of students will be glad to see them gone from their campuses.

 

- Trade with Saudi Arabia is about 0.25% of Canada's total exports.  This will not hurt Canada's economy.  On the contrary, Saudi Arabia has half the GDP and their tantrum is scaring off potential investors around the world.  Who the heck would bank on a business relationship with an irrational dictator who has a hair-trigger temper?

 

- 1000+ oil workers will go to neighbouring gulf states, or other countries, and right now they're likely getting bombarded with voicemail and email recruitment offers.  It's not like oil workers have trouble finding work.  They pick their jobs based on bonuses and perks.

 

- I think Canada's health care system can survive without a dozen or so Saudi residents and nurses.  My bet is any medical residents simply won't leave - certainly not the women.

 

- Saudi Arabia cancelling flights to Toronto does not cause "desperation".  Pearson airport is overcrowded, and it's not run like a private enterprise that makes money off the number of flights it gets - it's owned by Transport Canada.

 

- Canada is asking UK and UAE for assistance calming down Saudi Arabia because your mad prince is acting irrational and inciting nationalism and possibly terrorism.  (Veiled threats to back off or a 9/11 attack on Toronto?  We know Saudis are capable of that stuff since they comprised 80% of the 9/11 hijackers.)  This isn't Canada being afraid - this is a situation comparable to a coworker suddenly going crazy because you asked them to clean up the smell coming from their cubicle.  You might not be afraid of that coworker but maybe you'll ask his friends to calm him down so you can get back to work.

 

Your crown prince might be wily(he did manage to outfox or murder his rivals) but he sure doesn't act educated.  He's irrational, bad tempered, bullies his subjects, treats half his population like slaves, and quite frankly can go drill himself.

 

As a Canadian I find this all rather amusing.  What's your stake in this?

You are wrong, and obviously  have no understanding of the cost of tuition.You call me outlandish, but you have  no clue as to how dependent Canada's post secondary education system needs those Saudi students. For example; 

At McGill for undergrad a  local student pays about  $4,000 tuition and fees, and international students pay $16,000

The  Saudis pay  about $40,000 more than Canadians for Med school at the U of T.

At Dalhousie Dental school, 1st year  locals fees are $54,000 and the Saudis pay  $80,000.

The Saudis also pay the  salaries of the interns and residents. For example  in Nova scotia where there are  20+ Saudi medical residents that's  about $2million alone that is picked up by the Saudis, $2 million that the Nova Scotia government did not have otherwise. 

 

The windfall profits  gained from the foreign students are used to provide grants/subsidies/bursaries and interest free loans to Canadians, such that some Canadians pay no tuition fees because of the foreign students.

 

You say that the Canadian oil workers will easily find new jobs. That is not going to happen. The  Canadian oil industry has been shedding jobs and there hasn't been any new investment in years. Why would you think that the Canadians are going to easily find work, if the  Arabs in the region are supporting  the Saudis here? Do you think the UAE is going to say come on in, we'll terminate other workers for you? Those Canadian oil workers are there because of existing canadian contracts that are now at risk.

 

You ASSUME that there are only a dozen or so  Saudi specialists. You are very wrong. When upwards of 10% or more of specialists are Saudi residents and Fellows they cannot just be  replaced with the snap of the fingers.

Are you not aware that there are multi year long waiting periods for surgeries, and that there are regions and hospitals that are already shortstaffed? Try and get an appointment with a cardiology specialist in Toronto or Montreal and you will wait months. Good luck trying to  see a pediatric surgeon outside of an emergency in Halifax or  Regina.  You  have no appreciation of how dependent some  teaching hospitals are on these people. 

 

The issue isn't   the suspension of flights from Saudi Arabia, and I made  no reference to them.

 

The  reality is that Canada's so called allies are not helping Canada in this regard. I remind you that the last blow up with the Swedish foreign minister ended with the Swedes backing down and apologizing after they started losing contracts. The former German foreign minister also found himself  out of a job when he  talked of human rights. Meanwhile the Europeans  and Americans are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of picking up all the contracts Canada will lose.

 

The multi ,million dollar  mineral exploration and export contracts with  the Canadian mining sector is a question of life and death for those companies and their employees.

 

3 hours ago, JCauto said:

Ah, you were an immigrant to Canada? No problem, sorry for writing at too high a level of English. Just goes to show you how many directions life can lead.
Most immigrants to Canada enthusiastically take to the place and, sooner or later, start acting pretty much Canadian. Others of course cling to their old ways. Perhaps you came from a more authoritarian state prior to Canada and miss having Big Daddy tell you what to do? If only you'd lived in Ontario, you could be somewhat placated by having Rob Ford's brother Doug be your authority figure. 

Where have you been for the past 25 years? Most immigrants from certain regions do not take to Canada and do not assimilate. One need only look at the   violence plaguing the Sri Lankan and Jamaican community in Toronto. If you consider  engaging in gang land wars  assuming the Canadian identity, then you need to go visit their neighborhoods. Your manage to bundle racist dismissal with your embrace of the defeated corrupt liberal government of the shrill harpe Wynne.

 

 

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

from today's Guardian...

"A Saudi Arabian organisation has apologised for tweeting a digitally altered image that showed a plane flying towards Toronto’s CN Tower – in an apparent reference to a 9/11-style attack – amid an escalating row over Canada’s call for the release of detained human rights activists in the kingdom."

This is from the state that spawned 15 of the 19 9-11 attackers, and gave the world Wahabbist terrorism.

What a hypocrite. The Saudi government did not sponsor the attacks. Yes, Saudi nationals were willing participants.  Many UK, Canadian, and European nationals  have joined ISIL and engaged in   criminal acts.  You are not  condemning these countries are you? The small group which posted the awful tweet  has been held accountable. It has been terminated and won't be posting on twitter again. The Saudis acted a lot faster than Canada  has done in respect to known murderers  acting on behalf of Hizbollah or ISIL.

 

 

1 hour ago, pegman said:

555, good thing Canadians in general are not spineless wimps. There are a few ^^^^^^^^^ but not so many as to worry about. If that state sponser of terrorists wants to  put the screws to students who presumably will lose their $$ deposits that's on them. More spots for Canadian kids or Chinese. It seems the nut bar is going to take his people out of Canadian hospitals too. What a low life. Any oil or gas workers needing work should head to Alberta where you can have a Blue after your shift. Same guy who jailed then shock-down businessmen and his own family members for $121b.  The Thug Prince  might be getting to chicken little here ^^^^^^ but most of us say bring it on and let's hope for an Arab Spring comes to the Kingdom soon.

 

More spots for Canadians? Really? And who will pay for their tuition? You just don't get the fact that the  Saudis generate $600,000,000+ of revenue for Canada .Surprised? Are you even aware that the International education sector generates  $7 billion of revenue for Canada. The canadian government in 2010 stated that International students  gave a  $4.2 billion in GDP contribution to the Canadian economy, and represent about 7% of the GDP contributed by the overall education services sector in the Canadian economy.

Saudi Arabia is the 4th largest component of that contribution.

Oh sure, bring in more Chinese. Are you oblivious to the  intellectual capital theft being sucked out of Canada by those  Chinese grad students?  Not only that, the Chinese intend to reduce the numbers in North America and are favouring Europe and Australia.

 

How ignorant of the Canadian economy can one be to say "head to Alberta if you need a job in oil & gas"  The jobs lost in the sector are not coming back. That's what the industry, the economists and the government say.  

 

Saudi Arabia is necessary to have onside if there is ever to be peace in the middle east. It is the country which   props up key countries like Jordan, and Egypt and upon which regional stability hinges. 

 

Mark my words; The Canadian government will be begging for forgiveness and saying that it is all a misunderstanding once the  losses hit. it will do what Sweden did and will grovel.   And this is all because the foreign minister  decided to release an offensive tweet. You folks  take Trump to task for his use of tweets, well the Canadian  FM did the same. What is so difficult in having a face to face or a phone call to express one's views. Why is it assumed  that a brief tweet is  sufficient?

Do people not understand what happened? The Canadian government used twitter to send an offensive  message. In diplomacy one doesn't do this.

Edited August 8, 2018 by geriatrickid

[billd766]

15 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

This is not about Israel. It is a double standard and hypocrisy. Trudeau has talked of  restoring political ties with Iran, despite the repeated deaths of decent Canadians at the hands of the Iranian government.  Here's an example. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/09/let-grieving-wife-of-dead-environmentalist-leave-iran-son-pleads

 

You are wrong, and obviously  have no understanding of the cost of tuition.You call me outlandish, but you have  no clue as to how dependent Canada's post secondary education system needs those Saudi students. For example; 

At McGill for undergrad a  local student pays about  $4,000 tuition and fees, and international students pay $16,000

The  Saudis pay  about $40,000 more than Canadians for Med school at the U of T.

At Dalhousie Dental school, 1st year  locals fees are $54,000 and the Saudis pay  $80,000.

The Saudis also pay the  salaries of the interns and residents. For example  in Nova scotia where there are  20+ Saudi medical residents that's  about $2million alone that is picked up by the Saudis, $2 million that the Nova Scotia government did not have otherwise. 

 

The windfall profits  gained from the foreign students are used to provide grants/subsidies/bursaries and interest free loans to Canadians, such that some Canadians pay no tuition fees because of the foreign students.

 

You say that the Canadian oil workers will easily find new jobs. That is not going to happen. The  Canadian oil industry has been shedding jobs and there hasn't been any new investment in years. Why would you think that the Canadians are going to easily find work, if the  Arabs in the region are supporting  the Saudis here? Do you think the UAE is going to say come on in, we'll terminate other workers for you? Those Canadian oil workers are there because of existing canadian contracts that are now at risk.

 

You ASSUME that there are only a dozen or so  Saudi specialists. You are very wrong. When upwards of 10% or more of specialists are Saudi residents and Fellows they cannot just be  replaced with the snap of the fingers.

Are you not aware that there are multi year long waiting periods for surgeries, and that there are regions and hospitals that are already shortstaffed? Try and get an appointment with a cardiology specialist in Toronto or Montreal and you will wait months. Good luck trying to  see a pediatric surgeon outside of an emergency in Halifax or  Regina.  You  have no appreciation of how dependent some  teaching hospitals are on these people. 

 

The issue isn't   the suspension of flights from Saudi Arabia, and I made  no reference to them.

 

The  reality is that Canada's so called allies are not helping Canada in this regard. I remind you that the last blow up with the Swedish foreign minister ended with the Swedes backing down and apologizing after they started losing contracts. The former German foreign minister also found himself  out of a job when he  talked of human rights. Meanwhile the Europeans  and Americans are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of picking up all the contracts Canada will lose.

 

The multi ,million dollar  mineral exploration and export contracts with  the Canadian mining sector is a question of life and death for those companies and their employees.

 

Where have you been for the past 25 years? Most immigrants from certain regions do not take to Canada and do not assimilate. One need only look at the   violence plaguing the Sri Lankan and Jamaican community in Toronto. If you consider  engaging in gang land wars  assuming the Canadian identity, then you need to go visit their neighborhoods. Your manage to bundle racist dismissal with your embrace of the defeated corrupt liberal government of the shrill harpe Wynne.

 

 

What a hypocrite. The Saudi government did not sponsor the attacks. Yes, Saudi nationals were willing participants.  Many UK, Canadian, and European nationals  have joined ISIL and engaged in   criminal acts.  You are not  condemning these countries are you? The small group which posted the awful tweet  has been held accountable. It has been terminated and won't be posting on twitter again. The Saudis acted a lot faster than Canada  has done in respect to known murderers  acting on behalf of Hizbollah or ISIL.

 

 

 

More spots for Canadians? Really? And who will pay for their tuition? You just don't get the fact that the  Saudis generate $600,000,000+ of revenue for Canada .Surprised? Are you even aware that the International education sector generates  $7 billion of revenue for Canada. The canadian government in 2010 stated that International students  gave a  $4.2 billion in GDP contribution to the Canadian economy, and represent about 7% of the GDP contributed by the overall education services sector in the Canadian economy.

Saudi Arabia is the 4th largest component of that contribution.

Oh sure, bring in more Chinese. Are you oblivious to the  intellectual capital theft being sucked out of Canada by those  Chinese grad students?  Not only that, the Chinese intend to reduce the numbers in North America and are favouring Europe and Australia.

 

How ignorant of the Canadian economy can one be to say "head to Alberta if you need a job in oil & gas"  The jobs lost in the sector are not coming back. That's what the industry, the economists and the government say.  

 

Saudi Arabia is necessary to have onside if there is ever to be peace in the middle east. It is the country which   props up key countries like Jordan, and Egypt and upon which regional stability hinges. 

 

Mark my words; The Canadian government will be begging for forgiveness and saying that it is all a misunderstanding once the  losses hit. it will do what Sweden did and will grovel.   And this is all because the foreign minister  decided to release an offensive tweet. You folks  take Trump to task for his use of tweets, well the Canadian  FM did the same. What is so difficult in having a face to face or a phone call to express one's views. Why is it assumed  that a brief tweet is  sufficient?

Do people not understand what happened? The Canadian government used twitter to send an offensive  message. In diplomacy one doesn't do this.

 

You are right about double standards and hypocrisy but not so right about the country.

 

Can you remind us all about how many US and other citizens who died in the 9/11 "incident" where 15 of the 19 terrorists came from Saudi America, or perhaps Bin Laden who was a Saudi citizen?

 

Yet the USA still arms and supports SA.

 

I get a bit confused with double standards and hypocrisy and the USA and SA.

[geriatrickid]

The former respected Canadian ambassador to KSA  sums it up and explains why a Tweet was not appropriate to  express foreign policy.  How can anyone support the government here when it treated the issue in the same way that a 12 year old treats the latest Justin Bieber song?

 

 

 

[Canuckabroad]

7 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

...

Mark my words; The Canadian government will be begging for forgiveness and saying that it is all a misunderstanding once the  losses hit. it will do what Sweden did and will grovel.   And this is all because the foreign minister  decided to release an offensive tweet. You folks  take Trump to ask for his use of tweets, well the FM did the same. What is so difficult in having a face to face or a phone call to express one's views. Why is it assumed  that a brief tweet is  sufficient?

Do people not understand what happened? The Canadian government used twitter to send an offensive  message. In diplomacy one doesn't do this.

 

You are spending a lot of effort and emotion in explaining how powerful Saudi Arabia is and how anyone who upsets their dictator will feel their wraith.  That seems to be very important to you.  Do you identify with Saudi Arabia?  Or perhaps some other authoritarian, repressive, and almost-universally despised regime?  Or do you just like to play devil's advocate on the Internet?

 

I kept your last paragraph because that's the only part I'm going to specifically address.  The Canadian government didn't send an offensive message, they sent a warning about human rights and an injustice.  And anyone - person, organization, or nation - can do so, about any other country in the world.  Because no country should be able to repress and enslave their "citizens" within their borders.  (I put "citizens" in quotes because women in Saudi Arabia don't have rights coming anywhere close to that.)  Canada (and Germany and Sweden) have a lot of failings and you are welcome to point them.  The governments of those countries aren't so insecure that they'll threaten you personally over your criticisms.

 

In a more perfect world - one that we'll eventually get to, if humanity lives long enough - the international order will penalize barbaric countries like Saudi Arabia.  A tiny, hereditary, ruling elite should not have the power of life and death over 99% of the population.  For now, we have to settle with tweets and public statements.

 

But the days are numbered for authoritarian regimes like Saudi Arabia, and they will be remembered in history books like the monsters they are.

[from the home of CC]

7 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

 

The tweet came from a small group that does not represent the government.

They quickly apologized, pulled the  tweet   and explained the intent. The Saudi government  quickly banned their twitter account and repudiated the  childish posting. Why not present that information as well?

 

I worked over in the KSA. The experience was like being employed in a huge prison. They control all. I witnessed a shopkeeper get beat and his store vandalized by the 'religious police' for finishing up with customers (me included) lined up in his store, 2 minutes after prayer time happened to be called. I don't believe for a minute that this tweet aired without the complicity of the government, the oppression is absolute and very effective. This 'small group'  bs was a convenient story to fall back on when the world rightfully condemned this terrorist propaganda. The town where I lived held a three day celebration a day after 9/11, where revelers danced in happiness at the lost lives in the U.S.A. And you're a cheer leader for them? You live long enough in this world and  you see and hear it all - wow.

[Naam]

8 minutes ago, from the home of CC said:

I worked over in the KSA. The experience was like being employed in a huge prison. They control all. I witnessed a shopkeeper get beat and his store vandalized by the 'religious police' for finishing up with customers (me included) lined up in his store, 2 minutes after prayer time happened to be called. I don't believe for a minute that this tweet aired without the complicity of the government, the oppression is absolute and very effective. This 'small group'  bs was a convenient story to fall back on when the world rightfully condemned this terrorist propaganda. The town where I lived held a three day celebration a day after 9/11, where revelers danced in happiness at the lost lives in the U.S.A. And you're a cheer leader for them? You live long enough in this world and  you see and hear it all - wow.

being an experienced former "Saudi hand" with at least one visit per year i don't believe a single word you said.

[geriatrickid]

Just now, billd766 said:

 

You are right about double standards and hypocrisy but not so right about the country.

 

Can you remind us all about how many US and other citizens who died in the 9/11 "incident" where 15 of the 19 terrorists came from Saudi America, or perhaps Bin Laden who was a Saudi citizen?

Yet the USA still arms and supports SA.

I get a bit confused with double standards and hypocrisy and the USA and SA.

 

That is a side issue. This isn't about 9-11. Nor about the USA. Germany and Sweden  arm  KSA as well and other Europeans will gainif the $15billion  LAV supply agreement  is killed off with Canada. This is about a supposed responsible  competent minister allowing a supposedly important government position to be  conveyed  by twitter.

In what mentally deficient  world would anyone consider that diplomacy by twitter with emotionally sensitive people, appropriate? Again, I state that this isn't  high school where the kids send  tweets.It's the land of grown ups.

 

In respect to blaming  the KSA,; Yes Saudi nationals were involved in 9-11. It was a terrible crime. It can be argued that their country facilitated this  event, even though these terrorists were not resident in  KSA at the time.

Canadian, European Australian and US nationals have joined ISIL and  have engaged in some very evil violent acts. It can be argued that these countries have facilitated their  nationals' war activities because they did not intervene, nor target them fast enough. Canada has welcomed back several ISIL terrorists who have admitted their activities, but has taken no action against them. Yes, it's true.  The federal government says about 200 extremists left Canada to join terror groups in the region. Another 60 have returned after having served in overseas terror groups.  None have been arrested, nor charged. This makes the Canadian government  as guilty of crimes as the KSA is with the 9-11  terrorists.  I remind you that the Trudeau government says it will embrace and "reintegrate" returning fighters.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/isis-fighters-returning-target-jihadis-1.4404021

Trudeau also revoked Bill C-24 which allowed the government to revoke the citizenship of dual nationals who have been convicted of offences related to spying, treason or terrorism.

 

Please explain to me why Saudi Arabia is blamed, yet Canada gets a pass for doing nothing. Murder and acts of terror are the same.

 

 

 

[Naam]

19 minutes ago, Canuckabroad said:

40 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

...

Mark my words; The Canadian government will be begging for forgiveness and saying that it is all a misunderstanding once the  losses hit. it will do what Sweden did and will grovel.   And this is all because the foreign minister  decided to release an offensive tweet. You folks  take Trump to ask for his use of tweets, well the FM did the same. What is so difficult in having a face to face or a phone call to express one's views. Why is it assumed  that a brief tweet is  sufficient?

Do people not understand what happened? The Canadian government used twitter to send an offensive  message. In diplomacy one doesn't do this.

 

You are spending a lot of effort and emotion in explaining how powerful Saudi Arabia is and how anyone who upsets their dictator will feel their wraith.  That seems to be very important to you.  Do you identify with Saudi Arabia? 

he stated facts, you answered with irrelevant and boring blah-blah!

[geriatrickid]

36 minutes ago, Canuckabroad said:

 

You are spending a lot of effort and emotion in explaining how powerful Saudi Arabia is and how anyone who upsets their dictator will feel their wraith.  That seems to be very important to you.  Do you identify with Saudi Arabia?  Or perhaps some other authoritarian, repressive, and almost-universally despised regime?  Or do you just like to play devil's advocate on the Internet?

 

No that's your attempt to prejudice this issue. It's about an immature  and inappropriate approach to a serious issue. Twitter messages  are not appropriate for the delivery of  foreign policy. And what I have explained is that the  error  has the potential to cost Canada billions and cripple its post secondary education system. The best policy now is to apologize and to keep quiet. Trudeau should instead concentrate on protecting NAFTA, responding to the deadly  Tuberculosis epidemic in Nunavut and the redress of longstanding first nations human rights issues at home before trying to grandstand in international relations. Did you know that Nunavut now has one of the worst TB infection rates in the world, as bad as Somalia? He's all over the place trying to get political points and meanwhile his much touted commission on murdered and missing indigenous women is floundering.  Two faced BS spouting hypocrite.  Apparently  Inuit coughing up their lungs and bleeding out isn't worth any attention.

Edited August 8, 2018 by geriatrickid

[from the home of CC]

33 minutes ago, Naam said:

being an experienced former "Saudi hand" with at least one visit per year i don't believe a single word you said.

don't really care what you believe. I was also invited to the Friday executions in Hofuf but when I was  told foreigners are usually put in the front row so 'you better wear a raincoat' to keep the blood spray off I declined. I was based in the edge of the empty quarter- Mubarraz. But as I said earlier, what you believe is entirely up to you. 

[pegman]

15 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

What's your point with the  childish anti semitic reference. I  don't have shekels. It's a fact that Canada's financial services sector were counting on the income. Your guaranteed government pension relies on their performance since some of the  biggest institutional investors are union pension funds who invest in the sector.

So we're going to need to hold a Go-Fund-Me  for the Big 5 Canadian banks now are we? My union negotiated defined benefit private pension pays out the same regardless of how it's investments are doing. Oh, I see there were 77 Saudi would-be jihadists enrolled at UofT this fall. Doubtful they will be missed by the other >60,000 campus students. Let's hope airport security pay special attention to this bunch and screen out all their box cutters.

[Small Joke]

I have little time for this seriously undeserving group of fossil enriched fanatics, and take comfort in their inevitable decline and eventual return to desert infested decrepitude.

If America is now self sufficient in oil, why does a right wing POTUS kiss their keister?

Oh, that's right, Iran, that slow mo disaster of the west's own making.

 

[Small Joke]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

The former respected Canadian ambassador to KSA  sums it up and explains why a Tweet was not appropriate to  express foreign policy.  How can anyone support the government here when it treated the issue in the same way that a 12 year old treats the latest Justin Bieber song?

 

 

 

Tweets (stupid bloody name) are here to stay.

Twitter is the world's biggest forum, and a powerful way to get a message across.

It caused offence PRECISELY because it's so wide reaching and instant.

Trump, whatever you think of him, understands its power. 

If by 'appropriate' you mean 'diplomatic protocol' well, it's moot.

Everything in the world has been, and will continue to be, disrupted by technology, including, as POTUS has proved beyond a doubt, protocol.

If you don't like the current Canadian government, that's ok, we're all on the backbench at some point (and what makes our system the gift to humanity that it is, flaws and all).

But why are you such an avowed apologist for these medieval creeps in Saudi?

The only logical reason might be a personal interest in the alleged $3 billion trade gravy train, say it isn't so.

Anyway, who needs those berobed barbarians. I hear Britain might be in the market for some maple syrup and hogs before too long...

 

[Naam]

3 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

don't really care what you believe. I was also invited to the Friday executions in Hofuf but when I was  told foreigners are usually put in the front row so 'you better wear a raincoat' to keep the blood spray off I declined.

that nonsense confirms that you have actually no idea what you are talking about.

[Canuckabroad]

2 minutes ago, Naam said:

that nonsense confirms that you have actually no idea what you are talking about.

 

I'm not surprised that a Klingon would defend the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia  ?

[metisdead]

Off topic trolling posts and the replies have been removed. 

[Nickymaster]

Is Saudi Arabia the next holiday hotspot?

 

I doubt it...

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/saudi-arabia-holiday-hotspot-tourism-visa-change-red-sea-jeddah-riyadh-a8241191.html

 

[Nickymaster]

9 hours ago, Small Joke said:

I have little time for this seriously undeserving group of fossil enriched fanatics, and take comfort in their inevitable decline and eventual return to desert infested decrepitude.

If America is now self sufficient in oil, why does a right wing POTUS kiss their keister?

Oh, that's right, Iran, that slow mo disaster of the west's own making.

 

 

US and Saudi Arabia sign arms deals worth almost $110bn

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/saudi-arabia-sign-arms-deals-worth-110bn-170520141943494.html

[geriatrickid]

19 hours ago, pegman said:

 Oh, I see there were 77 Saudi would-be jihadists enrolled at UofT this fall. Doubtful they will be missed by the other >60,000 campus students. Let's hope airport security pay special attention to this bunch and screen out all their box cutters.

 

You are a bigoted hypocrite. You accuse  the students of being "jihadists" with absolutely no knowledge of who they are. the reality is that not one of the Saudi Arabian students in Canada has ever been implicated in a terrorist aka jihadi event. You accuse solely because they are Saudi and muslim. And yet  on your Israeli bashing rants you have no hesitation to promote the murderers and terrorists of Hizbollah and Hamas; groups far worse than the Saudis and who are more of a threat to the safety of westerners than the Saudis are.  And make no mistake, the Saudis are no friends of Israel either and have been sharply critical of the country, so the canard of other sin this thread of claiming that  this is  motivated by Israel is hokum.

 

Worse is your ignorance.  A massive, unparalleled ignorance.

216 Saudis  are employed as medical residents and fellows at the University of Toronto medical school teaching hospitals.  Their salaries are paid by Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are typically in the most specialized and difficult of  specialties. For example, SunnyBrook, the primary trauma hospital for Toronto has 30 Residents and was  to double that number in September. to 60.  Do you know what happens when you pull the  key specialists from a hospital?  Who do you  think is on duty  at night and on the weekends?  The same number of patients will be there, but the available pool of physicians  in Toronto will shrink by about 10%.

 

It's catastrophic  in Montreal. The McGill teaching hospitals which serve much of the English  and immigrant community will lose 18% of its key residents. 225 of 1250 Medical residents are Saudi Students. It's "super" hospital will lose some of its key cardiology, trauma  and infectious disease residents. Where do you expect the Childrens' hospital to replace its key  pediatric surgeons?  The province doesn't have the money to pay the salaries of the replacement specialists, nor do any of the other  provinces who were benefiting from the generous  Saudi subsidies. The Jewish General has a large number of the Saudis and residents from other Gulf states. It will be hit hard, particularly its oncology unit with the loss of the Saudis. 

 

Vulnerable and sick people will suffer and die in Canada because of this.  All because some idiot couldn't give someone the courtesy of a direct discussion or a face to face meeting. Would you like to have a key medical diagnosis delivered to you by Twitter?

 

The health community message boards are lit up like  Christmas trees  discussing the impact.

Are you even aware that Canada's only infectious disease  level 4 facility, the National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg is going to be hit by this?  Trudeau and the braying idiots applauding the manufactured, politically motivated fight with the Saudis have no understanding  how dependent the national health care system has been on the Saudi personnel and  money.

 

 

[bristolboy]

On 8/7/2018 at 12:31 AM, geriatrickid said:

Another shortsighted move by the PMO. Hypocritical too. It's a blatant interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign country. He hasn't said similar in respect to China or Iran which has the blood of several Canadians on its hands. He mistakenly singled out the KSA because he thought they wouldn't respond.

When the Palestinian Authority, a close supporter and ally of the Trudeau government joins other arab countries to protest the Canadian action, it is a sure sign of a political screw up.

 

It is obvious why the Trudeau government did this. Canada will have an election within the year and the ruling Liberals are dropping in the polls. They have have bungled the NAFTA negotiations and need to drain as much support from the leftist NDP and to shore up support from their core supporters if they are to remain in power. This interference in the domestic affairs of the KSA is intended to attract the  left vote  by showing that the country supports human rights. The reality is that Canada could have achieved the goal without publicly attacking the KSA.

 

The potential costs will be significant and will hurt tens of thousands. The worst part is that it will achieve the exact opposite of what Trudeau says. Here's why;

 

- 12,000+ students from the KSA are in Canada. They are an important source of income to Canadian secondary education facilities, especially  universities.

As per the Globe and Mail;  Tuition and living expenses for foreign students vary by province and education program. A full-time Saudi student without Canadian citizenship attending a major school such as the University of British Columbia or University of Toronto would pay $30,000 to $80,000 for tuition and living expenses, depending on their area of study and whether they live on campus.  “For Canadian universities, this is a significant hit,” said Thomas Juneau, an assistant professor at the University of Ottawa’s Graduate School of Public and International Affairs. “Saudi Arabia is the fourth largest contingent of foreign students in this country.

 

Those high fees make it possible for Canadian students to receive bursaries and subsidized fees. Take out the millions of dollars of income from some universities and they are not going to be able to give money to Canadian students.

 

- Graduate students have been told to return to the KSA. In respect to the medical schools and hospitals, approximately 800 are  working as Fellows, residents and interns. If they pull out now, in peak summer holiday season, some hospitals will be in crisis mode without specialists to respond. There is a shortage of medical specialists and the loss of  of even a handful at a hospital can shutdown an ER, or surgery. Canadians will suffer, and  some will die.

 

- Attending Canadian universities and  Saudis being exposed to Canadians did far more for advancing human rights and the understanding of other cultures  than any amount of hot air political statements.

 

- Saudi Arabia is Canada’s largest trading partner in the Middle East and North Africa. It's not just the LAV deal  that could be lost, but tens of thousands of jobs. Thousands of  Canadians hold lucrative high paying jobs in KSA in addition to jobs tied to the  approx. annual  $1-$2 billion of exports to the KSA from Canada.

The loss of the KSA contract and the expected introduction of  US tariffs on Canada's auto sector, will put the Canadian economy into a tailspin and might  result in the loss of 50,000-100,000  good paying jobs.

 

The Vehicles were nothing special, and the fact is that the KSA can  get them from other countries. The $15 billion order would keep Canadian manufacturing plants alive and high paying jobs for 3,000.  Those plants are needed for national security. Canada cannot afford to lose 3,000 highly skilled workers, nor see another plant close forcing Canada to purchase these vehicles from foreign sources. The KSA contract was in effect a subsidy for Canadians. It's arrogant to dismiss the livelihoods of those 3,000 workers and the people who's lives depend on them.

 

Marijuana is not legalized and the laws that will apply are a mess. It will be a fiasco, because each province has the right to set its own laws in respect  to control, sale and enforcement rules. The Liberal government just passed one of the most draconian laws in the western world, and one that is  just as intrusive as the laws Trudeau is complaining about in the KSA. Canadian police no longer need to have reasonable grounds to suspect impairment. They will be able to demand a breath sample from any driver at any time, and critics including the Criminal Lawyers’ Association have warned that is unconstitutional and will lead to police discriminating against drivers of colour.

 

Get real. India and China are purchasing Iran's oil and they never stopped wven when there were sanctions. KSA as the world's largest producer can put the world economy into a depression if it jiggles with supply.   Sure it can cut its supply to the west driving up oil prices, but it can still sell to the countries who's manufacturing sectors compete with the west. You know what will happen right?

 

Won't happen. Quebec will have an election in the next year and much of the electorate is against a pipeline. The  massive inferno that incinerated 40+ at Lac Megantic was the turning point along with several  spills from the existing pipeline. The western pipeline may cost  Trudeau his BC majority, so he will   not push the issue.

 

The KSA is an important part of the Mid East peace solution. Having a confrontation of this nature with the KSA will not help that, More importantly, Canada needs the KSA, the KSA does not need Canada. With the  economic problems with the USA, and the growing national debt with the inflated costs of the Trudeau social program promises, Canada cannot afford to lose the KSA income. Bad political move and one that will  destroy the Canadian brand in the arab world, much more than the usual offering of empty platitudes about Israel.

In plain language, you can't insult the KSA like this and  not accept significant blowback.

 

I predict that Trudeau will have to apologize and to grovel. Really grovel, because he is way, way out of his league on this.

 

Your post reads like a commentary from Oppositeland. It's the Canadian PM that has made a "shortsighted move"? And not the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia? 

What makes your comments so ludicrous is that you believe it's Canada that's primarily going to suffer from this incident. How do you think investors are going to react to MbS' massive overreaction to this tweet:

“We urge the Saudi authorities to immediately release them and all other peaceful human rights activists,” Global Affairs Canada said on its Twitter feed."

How can you believe that the Crown Prince's response is anything close to rational?

 

Canada has a fully developed diversified economy. Whatever it's economic weaknesses may be, they are as nothing compared to what Saudi Arabia is facing: a demographic time bomb with an undereducated work force. Foreign investment in Saudi Arabia has already plummeted. The proposed sale of a piece of Aramco has been repeatedly delayed because there isn't much interest from the private sector. Do you think investors are going to put their money at risk in a nation where the laws are opaque and are essentially what the volatile Crown Prince determines them to be?

 

On top of his horrific ongoing and expensive fiasco in Yemen, his over-the-top hostility against Qatar, his incarceration and extortion of funds from wealthy Saudis, and his kidnapping of the Prime Minster of Lebanon, he now launches a full scale economic war against Canada. Do you believe that this kind of behavior is encouraging to investors?

 

MbS is doing his best to turn SA into an economic pariah state. Sure, the industries of other nations are happy to sell them weapons and whatever else the desire. But invest and put their money at risk? Ludicrously unlikely. And in a few short years, a meltdown of SA is all but inevitable.

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by bristolboy

[bristolboy]

On 8/7/2018 at 12:31 AM, geriatrickid said:

 

It is obvious why the Trudeau government did this. Canada will have an election within the year and the ruling Liberals are dropping in the polls. They have have bungled the NAFTA negotiations and need to drain as much support from the leftist NDP and to shore up support from their core supporters if they are to remain in power. This interference in the domestic affairs of the KSA is intended to attract the  left vote  by showing that the country supports human rights. The reality is that Canada could have achieved the goal without publicly attacking the KSA.

 

 

No, the Liberals are not falling in the polls, In fact they are rising, And you are seriously claiming that Canada has bungled the Nafta negotiations? Are you even dimly aware that the people on the other side of the negotiating table are minions of  Donald Trump ? Your assertion is just plain nuts. In fact, the Liberals have gotten a big boost since Trudeau began to stand up to Trump.

Edited August 9, 2018 by bristolboy

[from the home of CC]

18 hours ago, Nickymaster said:

Is Saudi Arabia the next holiday hotspot?

 

I doubt it...

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/saudi-arabia-holiday-hotspot-tourism-visa-change-red-sea-jeddah-riyadh-a8241191.html

 

Not unless the surface of the moon appeals to you.

[pegman]

4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I get it. I've got facts and am in agreement with most experts; you've got nothing except attitude.

Stand firm Canada.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/08/the-guardian-view-on-saudi-arabia-time-to-back-canada

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed. 

 

A post containing a link to a site without linking to a specific related article has been removed.