UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Grouse]

55 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You need to understand the difference between visa free and visa waiver.

And the difference between vacations and living, working and retiring 

[Grouse]

40 minutes ago, vogie said:

Can I just say Sandy I don't need to understand anything, engaging in dialogue with people that think they are superior to me is a problem to me.

 

This is a quote from the independent, if I have read it wrong please accept my appologies.

 

If we leave without an agreement, nobody knows what will happen, if we leave with an agreement the likelyhood of visa free travel is very likely.

Have you a link to your version of a visa waiver travel in Europe and I have no intention of playing pedantics with you.

 

 

"But the commissioners decided that the UK could be placed on the visa-free list, along with people from the Americas, Japan, South Korea, Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand and several dozen other countries.

 

The decision is contingent upon the UK allowing Europeans to visit without visas, which the British government has already indicated will happen."

 

 

I don't think vacations are high on anyone's list of priorities in fact it is deflection

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

I don't think vacations are high on anyone's list of priorities in fact it is deflection

It is part of the divorce separation from the EU, so it is very relevant.

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Dick, please watch this."

 

I assume you're referring to me?

 

If so, my laptop is playing up and the sound is so low that it's impossible to watch or, more importantly, listen, to any video clips that are more than a couple of minutes long ☹️.

Yes I was referring to you. The professor brings up loss of rights which will affect everyone and will be exploited by the Tory right wing Brexiters. I know this is of interest to you

[transam]

Reading stuff here by some makes me look forward to POTY....????

 

I mean, some posting on this topic are absent from any other thread/topic...I do wonder why...????

[melvinmelvin]

19 minutes ago, Grouse said:

48 Tory MPs requesting a leadership challenge in confidence. Then 2/3 majority of Tory MPs. No chance.

 

An election is a different issue

 

check post 9333

 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Grouse said:

Yes I was referring to you. The professor brings up loss of rights which will affect everyone and will be exploited by the Tory right wing Brexiters. I know this is of interest to you

You're right insofar as one of the reasons I didn't vote in the referendum was the obvious fear that a leave result would result in the tory govt. reducing worker' rights etc. etc. 

 

I still expect this to be the case, but at the moment am more concerned at the threat to democracy if the leave vote is pretty much ignored - as seems to be happening.....

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Prof Dougan strikes again. 

 

Essential watching for those actually interested in the facts

 

Dick, please watch this.

I have been advised that Brexiters do not like to be thought of as stupid or uneducated morons!

 

Now I posted this excellent and informative piece by Prof Dougan several hours ago and not a single comment has been posted!

 

What should I conclude?

[melvinmelvin]

learning learning

 

Just read in today's Bangkok Post re Brexit,

 

the "deal" is accepted by EU using qualified majority, not consensus

 

I had the idea that consensus was required

didn't specify what qualifications are needed, 2/3 or 3/4 or whatever

 

anyway, a single country like Spain cannot block the deal

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

I have been advised that Brexiters do not like to be thought of as stupid or uneducated morons!

 

Now I posted this excellent and informative piece by Prof Dougan several hours ago and not a single comment has been posted!

 

What should I conclude?

Brexit is not all about you?

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I have been advised that Brexiters do not like to be thought of as stupid or uneducated morons!

 

Now I posted this excellent and informative piece by Prof Dougan several hours ago and not a single comment has been posted!

 

What should I conclude?

requires way too much bandwidth for my DTAC internet connection

 

[JAG]

32 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The greatest assumption in UK history is that promoted by the leavers that the UK would be better out than in.

That is a point of view, which has been argued vigorously and effectively by greater minds than mine, perhaps even than yours. Personally, I listened to the arguments for remaining and leaving, over a significant period of time, and on balance (I say that because both camps have valid arguments) I decided that the UK would be better off out, and voted accordingly. That does not mean that I regard the present government's performance with any delight, in fact, I think it is dismal, verging on the pathetic, that is not a reason for staying in the EU, or dismissing out of hand any views that hold that we should leave. There are reasons beyond the appalling fiasco caused by certain Conservative politicians for the shortcomings in any departure deal, and they emanate from Brussels rather than Westminster. The current and recent machinations within the government have led to a failure to confront those shortcomings, and present any effective negotiations.

 

Now changing tack, personally, I am getting more than a little fed up with "assumptions" that because I hold an entirely reasonable - reasoned even - view that, as I said was the result of considerable thought, I am in favour of any or all things which those who take an opposing view dislike. Over the last 20 months or so I have been variously accused of being stupid, ill-educated, belonging to the extreme right wing, racist, bigoted, paranoid and now in favour of striking trade deals with unsavoury and despotic regimes, because I don't parrot the views of the "remain" camp. I am none of those, in fact many would regard me as being rather liberal. My patience however is now near exhausted, if it were not for the moderators' likely reaction my response would be sharp, to the point, and somewhat "Anglo Saxon"!

 

I haven't been in the UK since before the referendum. My reading here and from other sources (I subscribe to the daily online edition of a long established broadsheet newspaper)  leads to believe that the whole affair has divided the UK as never before. If the tone of many of the posts here are anything to go by then that is true. I always try and make a point of respecting differing views. Do me the same courtesy please!

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

I have been advised that Brexiters do not like to be thought of as stupid or uneducated morons!

 

Now I posted this excellent and informative piece by Prof Dougan several hours ago and not a single comment has been posted!

 

What should I conclude?

OK, I moved indoors and listened to the first part of his speech - but he is SO obviously a remainer, that I gave up after 6 mins....

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

Brexit is not all about you?

It's about all of us

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

OK, I moved indoors and listened to the first part of his speech - but he is SO obviously a remainer, that I gave up after 6 mins....

Then I am afraid you fit the description of a Brexiter nicely. You see I listen to all opinions before deciding. Sorry Dick but you, and many like you, are being suckered without you knowing it .....

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Grouse said:

Then I am afraid you fit the description of a Brexiter nicely. You see I listen to all opinions before deciding. Sorry Dick but you, and many like you, are being suckered without you knowing it .....

You disagree that he is a remainer?

 

And yet you are adamant that only leavers are "being suckered"??

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Then I am afraid you fit the description of a Brexiter nicely. You see I listen to all opinions before deciding. Sorry Dick but you, and many like you, are being suckered without you knowing it .....

You are very much like Brian Clough, you listen to all opinions and then you decide you were right all along. ????

[dick dasterdly]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Then I am afraid you fit the description of a Brexiter nicely. You see I listen to all opinions before deciding. Sorry Dick but you, and many like you, are being suckered without you knowing it .....

 

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You disagree that he is a remainer?

 

And yet you are adamant that only leavers are "being suckered"??

To put it in your own words "you fit the description of a" remainer "nicely"....

Edited November 21, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Chelseafan]

2 hours ago, Orac said:

 

The PM is the leader of her party so, in the first instance, her party will challenge her. 15% (48 at present) of her parties MPs must submit a letter of no confidence to the chairman of the Tory backbench committee who will arrange a no confidence vote amongst their own MPs. It can be done very quickly (24hrs in the past) and almost certainly she would win this. Then follows a leadership contest where the PM can stand and various MPs from he own party would stand against her - party MPs then vote and after each vote one candidate is eliminated until two are left. These two then go to a vote by Conservative party members nationally.


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And should she win, she cannot be challenged for at least a year.

 

[BwindiBoy]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I have been advised that Brexiters do not like to be thought of as stupid or uneducated morons!

 

Now I posted this excellent and informative piece by Prof Dougan several hours ago and not a single comment has been posted!

 

What should I conclude?

That you're pompous?

[mogandave]

I have been advised that Brexiters do not like to be thought of as stupid or uneducated morons!
 
Now I posted this excellent and informative piece by Prof Dougan several hours ago and not a single comment has been posted!
 
What should I conclude?

That perhaps you’re not as intellectually superior to everyone as you claim to be?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

19 hours ago, Grouse said:

Your selfishness angers me. Typical Brexiter. No concept of the greater good of society. I still blame Thatcher for that. You people just don't fit in Europe. We are far more interested in social justice and consensus.

 

I will never pipe down. You broadcast your selfish nonsense and I will do my damnedest to take you down.

 

This sounds like it has become something of personal crusade Mr.G? ???? It needn't be. Would only be a waste of your time.

 

You disagree with me on most points - in fact we're often diametrically opposed, but that's fine, nothing wrong with it in fact.

I only told you to 'pipe down' in the first place because you brought up, what I see as, pretty arrogant assumptions in your post, yet again. I think you know what I'm speaking of. I had already answered your question along the same lines some time ago at least once with the honest answer, yet you still bring it up.

 

'Cantab? you're no Cantab!' The inference being - if I was Cambridge Uni educated then I wouldn't believe in the Brexit cause - a cause you happen to vehemently disagree with!

And look, I didn't really mean to insult you in the first place, it was a gentle ribbing, maybe you took it to heart a little too much? ???? Considering the pretty vitriolic comments you aim at other posters on here, perhaps you shouldn't do?

 

In any case, it is this aforementioned tone of pure condescension that runs through the whole Remaoner rhetoric that gets our collective goat on this side, I think it's fair to say.

 

'We Remainers are all awfully well educated don't you know, we really rather think you should listen to us, as we know best', etc. etc.

These same people with Russell Group Uni degrees coming out of the wazoo, seem to have hardly ever worked a day in their life nor seem to have a firm grasp on economics, business or the realities of the EU outside of the received wisdom their cohorts and professors have instilled in them. Living in an echo chamber, basically.

Judging by the blatant lack of astuteness of many people who like to make a point of mentioning their quality education, standards must've slipped! This could be witnessed time and again in the Brexit campaign, with the BBC doing a stellar job of platforming a vast array of venal dullards of the same ilk - promoting the EU cause without seemingly understanding or experiencing any of it's obvious flaws.

 

To address your point briefly re: Thatcher - something that happened throughout the 1980s that needs to happen again, IMO, is a reduction in the size of the state and its influence. The EU will never ever do that, their raison d'etre is consolidation of control and centralisation of that power - this can be seen in the very trajectory of the institution's  increased influence in everyday life as well as its growth into new and previously uncharted territory.

From a single market - to a customs union - to a political union - to a currency union - to a military union. It's insidious march towards totalitarian control is, I'd wager - not what the masses want - or ever voted for. We were never even consulted about any of it. It's complete lack of democracy can be witnessed time and again, so when you start saying we are far more interested in social justice and consensus/greater good for society and then in the same breath associate any of these notions with the EU, it only solidifies my view that you are misinformed about the subject & unable to appraise the facts. So to be honest, there is little point in discussing this topic with you further.

If the EU were simply what it started out as, I personally, would have no problem with it. Alas, it's mutated into a monster over the last 40 years, and it's high time it was vanquished. What with Brexit; Italian, Hungarian and Polish dissent and the mounting Eurozone/migrant crises I'd say it's days are very much numbered.

 

I would also add - you didn't even attempt to answer my question I notice, what part of what I said was incorrect or 'nonsense'?  

Edited November 21, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[denby45]

On 11/18/2018 at 2:25 PM, sandyf said:

Obviously you are of the opinion that 'the people' can never be misled into taking the wrong action.

The great famine in China came about because the people were misled into taking the wrong action. Mao Zedong didn't get rid of the sparrows, the people did, chased them until they were exhausted and died.

 

History is littered with environmental disasters, but few compare to the one kicked off in 1958 in China. That was the year that Mao Zedong, the founding father of the People's Republic of China, decided that his country could do without pests like sparrows. The impact of this ill-conceived decision — along with many other policies he put in place — caused a domino effect of destruction. Three years later, as many as 45 million people were dead.

https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/the-great-sparrow-campaign-was-the-start-of-the-greatest-mass

What a load of rubbish. You are comparing apples and pears. Yes history tells us that people have always been misled when the elite require it. And yes they have got their way through many devious methods. This was no different in the fact that the elite again tried their best to mislead the people with the government spending millions on pamphlets and spreading malicious doom and gloom scenarios. However this time around despite all the efforts of the elite the people still voted to leave. One of the few times in history the people have refused to be conned and the elite should have got the message and been stunned into silence. Unfortunately the elite are very difficult to fight against especially when you have them ruling parliament and the upper house. Instead of carrying out the will of the people they have carried out a campaign to put as many blocks in the way as they possibly can including the latest bull***t agreement which is very likely to fail. It should fail because the only difference appears to be that the UK will pay the elite gravy train 40 billion extra bonus of taxpayers money this time around on top of what they already pay and all will remain the same as before.

 

Den

 

[Orac]

And should she win, she cannot be challenged for at least a year.
 

Correct, and in so doing she could undermine the various right wing agitators and nut jobs who have recently been joining the Conservative Party hoping to vote in an upcoming leadership election - they need to have been members for 90 days before being eligible to vote.


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[aright]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I have been advised that Brexiters do not like to be thought of as stupid or uneducated morons!

 

Now I posted this excellent and informative piece by Prof Dougan several hours ago and not a single comment has been posted!

 

What should I conclude?

Conclusion…..if you have children, whatever you do, don't send them to Liverpool University unless of course you want them to get a 2:2 in "One Eyed" or to change their first language.

[AlexRich]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The Zimbabwe Theory of Currency and Economics.

 

Exactly, if we crash our currency to near zero we'll all be billionaires ... carrying our money around in a wheel barrow ... and that should just about cover the price of a loaf of bread.

[AlexRich]

3 hours ago, Orac said:

 

I get the impression that both hard brexiteers and vocal remainers have become very much a minority with most people now wishing the whole thing would go away. Noticeable that even the ERG cannot get the support of the 48 Tory MPs they need to push a leadership challenge despite it being only 15% of them and the remain side only have a small handful that have stood up to be counted - guess the rest are trying to hide out of the way hoping it blows over.




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I agree with that sentiment. Most remainers will accept leaving if it is done in a way that minimises the damage to the economy. None want to crash out on a "no deal" scenario ... and the ERG's attempt to get that result will lead to a second referendum. In that situation remainers will vote to stay, along with some former leavers who thought there would be a deal ... and in my view win the day. That would be the most ironic of endings to this farce.

 

The problem longer term is that even if we leave on a deal, any sluggishness in our growth will be blamed on the deal, whatever it is. Leavers will never acknowledge errors of judgement. They'll be down the market: "if only we'd just walked out we'd all be millionaires this time next year, Rodney".

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

37 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

Correct, and in so doing she could undermine the various right wing agitators and nut jobs who have recently been joining the Conservative Party hoping to vote in an upcoming leadership election - they need to have been members for 90 days before being eligible to vote.


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when you say correct above, I take it that it refers to the Tory internal process

 

I assume that parliament, if they so fancy, can run a non-confidence vote monthly?

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not fair!  I voted for the monster raving loony party (or whatever it was called) once - as it was so obvious that a protest vote was required against both the Labour and Tory parties, as they were pretty much the same....

 

They changed their name to UKIP. 

[melvinmelvin]

24 minutes ago, aright said:

Conclusion…..if you have children, whatever you do, don't send them to Liverpool University unless of course you want them to get a 2:2 in "One Eyed" or to change their first language.

 

change first language? nothing wrong with scouse, just ask John Lennon