UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[BwindiBoy]

31 minutes ago, lapamita said:

 

Noway!!

 

Britain

want get out.  Get out!

if you dont   like the  deal,you vote?

No way ... we as Eu members can vote to maybe accept you again . at our terms and condition.

 

Britain alwys stoppedEu from moving forward , there  some other countrys would be happy and pleased to join the EU , and makes more sense , than keepig a country without big intention to stay

 

Britain is not so important , like it thinks

 

You don't want to spend our money any more?  That's fine with us.

[melvinmelvin]

Many things I do not understand in British politics.

 

Anyway, this idea of another referendum on the result of the talks and/or another leave/remain and the parliament having a say

on the results appear a bit strange to me.

 

the way I see the process;

 

UK triggers A50 with the blessing of parliament

the 2 year talks period commences

talks may result in

good deal - bad deal - zilch

end of talks; UK leaves regardless of deal-size/quality

UNLESS smth else is agreed with EU

 

it is not up to the parliament or the British people to decide anything here,

the most parliament / people can do is to advice the PM

 

the only real decision maker here is the EU

[lapamita]

Quote

to the 5th largest by GDP

The UK will fall out of the top 5 on the list of largest economies in 2018, with a nominal GDP of USD 2.8 trillion. Our panelists estimate GDP growth of 1.3% in 2018 and 1.4% in 2019

 

 

and for CNN  you on place7

https://money.cnn.com/news/economy/world_economies_gdp/index.html

 

Quote

the only real decision maker here is the EU

 

YEs , it must be like that

Edited September 26, 2018 by lapamita
wrong wr.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, tebee said:

 

 

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/

 

They can't even put the correct year next to the table so what other inaccuracies could there be? 

 

The 65% Labour remain vote is not consistent with the number of Labour constituencies that vote leave (60%).

 

Not very convincing really, is it?

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

Many things I do not understand in British politics.

 

Anyway, this idea of another referendum on the result of the talks and/or another leave/remain and the parliament having a say

on the results appear a bit strange to me.

 

the way I see the process;

 

UK triggers A50 with the blessing of parliament

the 2 year talks period commences

talks may result in

good deal - bad deal - zilch

end of talks; UK leaves regardless of deal-size/quality

UNLESS smth else is agreed with EU

 

it is not up to the parliament or the British people to decide anything here,

the most parliament / people can do is to advice the PM

 

the only real decision maker here is the EU

 

It doesn't work like that matey. We all know what the EU would say!

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, lapamita said:

 

Noway!!

 

Britain

want get out.  Get out!

if you dont   like the  deal,you vote?

No way ... we as Eu members can vote to maybe accept you again . at our terms and condition.

 

Britain alwys stoppedEu from moving forward , there  some other countrys would be happy and pleased to join the EU , and makes more sense , than keepig a country without big intention to stay

 

Britain is not so important , like it thinks

 

The EU is quite capable of selecting reverse gear on its own pal.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

If you use the words "You said" , you should quote what was said, not post what you think was said. Common practice on this forum to separate a piece of text from the context of the sentence. 

The quote you user previously was not in context. The text could not be construed as deliberately misleading at the time it was said, that came with hindsight.

 

The report posted is obviously biased but if Heath did in fact say that it would be a lot more relevant, but of course came nearly 20 years after the event. I haven't seen it before but confirms what I have been saying for a long time.

Now maybe now you can explain to us why deceitful actions by the EU are so much more important to brexiteers than deceitful actions by the UK government.

At the end of the day, however it came about, history has shown that Heath's actions were in the best interests of the country. Public opinion is not always right and the reliability of such opinion is directly related to an understanding of the point in question.

Since joining the EEC in 1973 the UK economy has come from recession to the 5th largest by GDP, how much better do you think it would have done alone.

 

You can continue with your pedantic diversion alone, Sandy. I'm not hungry today.

[vogie]

This report is written by former Labour MP Gisela Stewart in the Guardian, a very interesting article.

 

Keir Starmer’s second referendum proposal would mean Labour scornfully

turning its back on millions of its supporters 

 

Last week polling showed that voters in the 25 most marginal Labour constituencies are opposed to a second referendum, and that 19 of those seats would be lost if Labour tried to stop Brexit.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/25/labour-betray-leave-voters-brexit-keir-starmer-second-referendum

Edited September 26, 2018 by vogie

[dick dasterdly]

35 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

They can't even put the correct year next to the table so what other inaccuracies could there be? 

 

The 65% Labour remain vote is not consistent with the number of Labour constituencies that vote leave (60%).

 

Not very convincing really, is it?

Interesting to learn that only 60% of Labour constituencies voted to leave as I though the number was higher.  Even more interesting is that the remaining 40% of constituencies that voted to leave were tory constituencies.

 

Clearly I haven't been paying attention to have missed this, but it explains why the tory party MPs are in nearly as desperate a situation as the Labour party MPs when it comes to having to worry about losing their seats  in the constituencies that voted leave ????.

 

We've all discussed the 'analysts' breakdown of the referendum vote on numerous threads.  How on earth does anyone know how to divide the ANONYMOUS vote (old/young/poor/wealthy etc.) between those who voted to remain and those who voted to leave in any particular constituency - let alone all of them?!

Edited September 26, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[mommysboy]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

This report is written by former Labour MP Gisela Stewart in the Guardian, a very interesting article.

 

Keir Starmer’s second referendum proposal would mean Labour scornfully

turning its back on millions of its supporters 

 

Last week polling showed that voters in the 25 most marginal Labour constituencies are opposed to a second referendum, and that 19 of those seats would be lost if Labour tried to stop Brexit.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/25/labour-betray-leave-voters-brexit-keir-starmer-second-referendum

 

Who knows?

 

The point is to choose one way alienates the other.  It's the same for Tories, et al.  

 

Labour has not said there will be a second referendum on Brexit; it has said all options remain open until the final nature of the deal is known.  

 

Labour's preferred option is a general election, and a referendum would only be sought if that did not happen.  Also, any such referendum would likely be on the deal.  If Labour could not force an election, then it probably would not be able to secure a second vote either, so talk of what would happen in an election is entirely premature.

 

What we can say is that the Tories will most probably go in to the next election as a most unpopular government.  Surely, many Tory marginals will be up for grabs, because of the Brexit issue too.  IMO an election win is there for the taking, yet I remain doubtful that Britain will ever be ready to vote for such a left wing administration.

[mommysboy]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Interesting to learn that only 60% of Labour constituencies voted to leave as I though the number was higher.  Even more interesting is that the remaining 40% of constituencies that voted to leave were tory constituencies.

 

Clearly I haven't been paying attention to have missed this, but it explains why the tory party MPs are in nearly as desperate a situation as the Labour party MPs when it comes to having to worry about losing their seats  in the constituencies that voted leave ????.

 

We've all discussed the 'analysts' breakdown of the referendum vote on numerous threads.  How on earth does anyone know how to divide the ANONYMOUS vote (old/young/poor/wealthy etc.) between those who voted to remain and those who voted to leave in any particular constituency - let alone all of them?!

 

Precisely.

 

Not all voters will be voting with Brexit as their uppermost consideration.  Labour's plans to re-nationalise will be music to the ears of most of their voters.  But it could equally convince many would be Tory defectors to think again.

[CG1 Blue]

4 hours ago, lapamita said:

 

Noway!!

 

Britain

want get out.  Get out!

if you dont   like the  deal,you vote?

No way ... we as Eu members can vote to maybe accept you again . at our terms and condition.

 

Britain alwys stoppedEu from moving forward , there  some other countrys would be happy and pleased to join the EU , and makes more sense , than keepig a country without big intention to stay

 

Britain is not so important , like it thinks

"we as Eu members can vote to maybe accept you again . at our terms and condition"

You clearly don't know the British people if you think we would agree to be even more subservient to the EU.

 

"Britain alwys stoppedEu from moving forward"

I'm interested to hear how you want the EU to move forward now that Britain will no longer be holding it back. Do you want a United States of Europe led by Juncker or his successor?

 

"Britain is not so important , like it thinks"

Please tell us about your important country, and what it has contributed to the world.

[melvinmelvin]

51 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

It doesn't work like that matey. We all know what the EU would say!

 

I think that is exactly the way it works

 

UK parliament has no influence on this except advising the PM

 

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I think that is exactly the way it works

 

UK parliament has no influence on this except advising the PM

 

 

EU has repeatedly indicated that a single market deal is available.

 

EU would be unlikely to decline a request for delay imo.

 

Ultimately, the EU views Brexit as an error, and  does not want the UK to leave.  

 

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

 

EU has repeatedly indicated that a single market deal is available.

 

EU would be unlikely to decline a request for delay imo.

 

Ultimately, the EU views Brexit as an error, and  does not want the UK to leave.  

 

 

 

 

 

you may be right - you may be wrong

doesn't matter

EU is the sole decision maker here, that's my point

[mommysboy]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

 

you may be right - you may be wrong

doesn't matter

EU is the sole decision maker here, that's my point

 

Theoretically yes.  In practice?

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

Many things I do not understand in British politics.

 

Anyway, this idea of another referendum on the result of the talks and/or another leave/remain and the parliament having a say

on the results appear a bit strange to me.

 

the way I see the process;

 

UK triggers A50 with the blessing of parliament

the 2 year talks period commences

talks may result in

good deal - bad deal - zilch

end of talks; UK leaves regardless of deal-size/quality

UNLESS smth else is agreed with EU

 

it is not up to the parliament or the British people to decide anything here,

the most parliament / people can do is to advice the PM

 

the only real decision maker here is the EU

"the only real decision maker here is the EU"

 

Do you genuinely believe this, bearing in mind the uk electorate voted to leave?

 

You would, of course, be right, if the uk tried to rejoin the eu - but factually the current situation is that the uk held a referendum that resulted in a leave vote.

 

Yes, politicians and media are trying to turn this into something else - but at the moment it's ridiculous to state that "the only real decision maker here is the EU"! ????

[mommysboy]

16 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"the only real decision maker here is the EU"

 

Do you genuinely believe this, bearing in mind the uk electorate voted to leave?

 

You would, of course, be right, if the uk tried to rejoin the eu - but factually the current situation is that the uk held a referendum that resulted in a leave vote.

 

Yes, politicians and media are trying to turn this into something else - but at the moment it's ridiculous to state that "the only real decision maker here is the EU"! ????

 

 

I am genuinely confused by your stance.  Are you saying that Brexit is a mandate to leave at any price?  Or that: The vote to leave excluded any option such as soft Brexit?  What do you think about the idea of a vote on the deal?

 

Mine is that the people did indeed vote to leave, and that should not be subject to a further referendum.  However, if a reasonable plan can not be struck, Brexit may be deemed undeliverable in the reasonable sense.  IMO, not even a democratic vote is so sacrosanct that it may not be challenged.

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by mommysboy

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"the only real decision maker here is the EU"

 

Do you genuinely believe this, bearing in mind the uk electorate voted to leave?

 

You would, of course, be right, if the uk tried to rejoin the eu - but factually the current situation is that the uk held a referendum that resulted in a leave vote.

 

Yes, politicians and media are trying to turn this into something else - but at the moment it's ridiculous to state that "the only real decision maker here is the EU"! ????

 

you tell me;

 

what can old Liz decide?

what can TM decide?

what can UK parliament decide?

zilch

 

they can ask for improvement of deal

they can ask for prolongation of talks period

they can ask for A50-out, we stay in EU

 

where is the power of decision? with the EU

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, mommysboy said:

 

Yes, politicians and media are trying to turn this into something else - but at the moment it's ridiculous to state that "the only real decision maker here is the EU"! ????

 

I am genuinely confused by your stance.  Are you saying that Brexit is a mandate to leave at any price?  Or that: The vote to leave excluded any option such as soft Brexit?  What do you think about the idea of a vote on the deal?

 

"Are you saying that Brexit is a mandate to leave at any price?"

 

The brexit vote was a mandate to leave.  The establishment/majority of media/remainers are doing their best to insist that this will result in devastation for the uk - hence your "at any price" comment.... ???? 

 

"Or that: The vote to leave excluded any option such as soft Brexit?"

 

Yes.

 

"What do you think about the idea of a vote on the deal?"

 

I've made my view clear on any agreed deal quite frequently - mainly 'cos I don't trust the govt. as far as I can throw them.... 

 

In short, I've nothing against a second referendum - as long as it's restricted to:-

1) accept the deal

2) leave immediately.

 

 

[adammike]

47 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"the only real decision maker here is the EU"

 

Do you genuinely believe this, bearing in mind the uk electorate voted to leave?

 

You would, of course, be right, if the uk tried to rejoin the eu - but factually the current situation is that the uk held a referendum that resulted in a leave vote.

 

Yes, politicians and media are trying to turn this into something else - but at the moment it's ridiculous to state that "the only real decision maker here is the EU"! ????

FACTUALLY 37% of the UK electorate voted to leave.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Interesting to learn that only 60% of Labour constituencies voted to leave as I though the number was higher.  Even more interesting is that the remaining 40% of constituencies that voted to leave were tory constituencies.

 

Clearly I haven't been paying attention to have missed this, but it explains why the tory party MPs are in nearly as desperate a situation as the Labour party MPs when it comes to having to worry about losing their seats  in the constituencies that voted leave ????.

 

We've all discussed the 'analysts' breakdown of the referendum vote on numerous threads.  How on earth does anyone know how to divide the ANONYMOUS vote (old/young/poor/wealthy etc.) between those who voted to remain and those who voted to leave in any particular constituency - let alone all of them?!

I thought it was higher too, Dick. 

[Orac]

Interesting to learn that only 60% of Labour constituencies voted to leave as I though the number was higher.  Even more interesting is that the remaining 40% of constituencies that voted to leave were tory constituencies.
 
Clearly I haven't been paying attention to have missed this, but it explains why the tory party MPs are in nearly as desperate a situation as the Labour party MPs when it comes to having to worry about losing their seats  in the constituencies that voted leave [emoji23].
 
We've all discussed the 'analysts' breakdown of the referendum vote on numerous threads.  How on earth does anyone know how to divide the ANONYMOUS vote (old/young/poor/wealthy etc.) between those who voted to remain and those who voted to leave in any particular constituency - let alone all of them?!

Couple of points on this.

The first paragraph is wrong in that 60% of Labour constituencies might have voted leave but that does not mean the remaining 40% were Tory since they would be the remaining Labour constituencies.

Also there is is the flip side of the coin for MPs that have a different view regarding brexit from their constituents. As well as the many Labour MPs in leave constituencies there are quite a few MPs of both parties who have strongly supported Brexit who are in constituencies that voted remain including the likes of Raab, Fox, Redwood, Grayling, Hoey, Baker and Duncan-Smith not to mention TM herself.

Any future vote would be extremely bitter and divisive whether it be GE or referendum so it is to be hoped that our current elected officials can sort this out between themselves.




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[JAG]

1 hour ago, adammike said:

FACTUALLY 37% of the UK electorate voted to leave.

FACTUALLY 27.8% of the UK electorate didn't vote. That is why 37% was sufficient to produce a majority.

 

If they didn't vote then they can hardly object to the result, now can they?

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

We've all discussed the 'analysts' breakdown of the referendum vote on numerous threads.  How on earth does anyone know how to divide the ANONYMOUS vote (old/young/poor/wealthy etc.) between those who voted to remain and those who voted to leave in any particular constituency - let alone all of them?!

Eh? The method is called polls, where people's backgrounds are actually recorded. 

 

After questioning larger group of people, statistical analysis is applied to the results. That's not rocket science just simple math. 

[adammike]

23 minutes ago, JAG said:

FACTUALLY 27.8% of the UK electorate didn't vote. That is why 37% was sufficient to produce a majority.

 

If they didn't vote then they can hardly object to the result, now can they?

 

I'm not objecting to the result although I am a remainer it's the continued use of the "electorate" voted to leave.its all still to be decided most likely by another election or possibly a referendum.The EU may well start to play hardball following TMs speech at the UN saying that the UK ( if it survives brexit) will be a low taxation haven.

[mommysboy]

Now Labour is flexing it's muscles the whole show is descending in to an even bigger muddle than it already is; the Government couldn't even get close to securing a deal before, so what chance now?

 

I like the way Labour is focusing on real national issues; Tories still banging the drum on corporate tax cuts.  The Government is clueless in so many respects.

 

I still don't think Labour will get in to power because England is mostly a right wing haven. I don't regard England as anti-socialism- just so long as it stays at a corporate and financial level!!????

Edited September 26, 2018 by mommysboy

[kwilco]

 

https seems the UK government Is now fully endorsing "project fear" ... they now have a minister for food. This was only normally seen  in and around WW1 & WW2.

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/26/uk-appoints-food-supplies-minister-amid-fears-of-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[kwilco]

9 hours ago, adammike said:

I'm not objecting to the result although I am a remainer it's the continued use of the "electorate" voted to leave.its all still to be decided most likely by another election or possibly a referendum.The EU may well start to play hardball following TMs speech at the UN saying that the UK ( if it survives brexit) will be a low taxation haven.

It is the democratic right of my country to change its mind.....It appears that Brexiteers will accept a very slim majority in this respect..... so the next referendum should put a end to their madness.

[The manic]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

It is the democratic right of my country to change its mind.....It appears that Brexiteers will accept a very slim majority in this respect..... so the next referendum should put a end to their madness.

Depending on the result and the margin?