UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[whatsupdoc]

34 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

So I was pretty surprised to discover the extent of the abuse from the remain side, and the incessant trolling from international posters. The former I can understand as sour grapes, but the latter is just weird.

 

More surprising was that, with the exception of one or two remainers such as tebee, the remain side of the debate rarely puts forward any informed opinion; sarcasm, abuse and emotionalism seem to be their main contribution.

 

 

You can repeat it as many times as you like but that doesn't make it true. In my opinion by far the most offensive posts were from the Brexiteer side, but we'll probably never agree on that.

And that non-Brits react on this thread (I wouldn't call it trolling) is not weird at all; Brexit not only affects the UK, it brings damage to the EU as well.

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

While I have been away I have been pondering

 

It seems to me that Brexit is a Nash equilibrium issue

 

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/03/29/article-50-the-eu-will-drive-a-hard-bargain/

 

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2948140

 

I assume Remainers will understand Nash equilibrium

 

Brexiters, did you see "A Beautiful Mind?" Yes, It was rubbish. explained nothing really

 

Try "The prisoners' dilemma"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

 

Of course the ideal result for EVERYONE is to remain. BUT we have chosen this route so I hope the negotiators understand Nash's work. The EU certainly appear to.

 

Nash essentially saved the world during the Cold War - read up on Game Theory....

 

Norwegian model anyone?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

not quite Nash equilibrium yet, but getting closer by the week

 

[My Thai Life]

9 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

You can repeat it as many times as you like but that doesn't make it true. In my opinion by far the most offensive posts were from the Brexiteer side, but we'll probably never agree on that.

And that non-Brits react on this thread (I wouldn't call it trolling) is not weird at all; Brexit not only affects the UK, it brings damage to the EU as well.

Anyone who is interested in the truth just needs to read the history of the thread.

 

I would make a distinction between the international trolls and EU citizens who rightly have an interest in the outcome. Nevertheless, many of those EU-citizen posters rely on sarcasm and abuse - frequently one liners, and even single word replies - just read the history if you need evidence.

 

Yes you are right, Brexit does affect the EU. So why have we seen so little comment (if any) on that point from the remain side? 

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

You do know most Tory MPs are pro-Remain, don't you? And you do realise the leader of the Labour Party is a lifelong Eurosceptic? Corbyn is just hedging his bets at the moment, praying for a general election. He loathes the EU project!

 

Brexit really isn't along party lines.

 

My postings are ironic. 

 

Yes but you don't realise a big majority of English Tory Brexiteers (the voters) put leaving EU above the Union.  I don't care if we leave the EU or not, I do care about the UK.

 

Shame on the Tory Little Englanders.

 

[billd766]

5 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Not much of a door really.

 

Neither is the one which is closing.

 

At least the TPP will not be laying down any laws that the UK MUST obey.

 

The TPP consists of  Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, Vietnam as the USA has withdrawn.

 

If /when we sign up with them and wish to do a deal with Canada for example it will not take 10 years as it has in the EU.

 

We will not cease trading with the EU, nor they with us.

 

Think positively like a Brexiteer, instead of negatively like a Remainer.

[mommysboy]

Little Englanders can gas on all they want.  Any opinion poll I've seen shows a majority- a big majority- want a single market type/customs union option.  Stop trying to go against the public will and Brexit could be resolved quickly.  keep going and you're heading for a vote of no confidence.

 

Top marks for Labour on this one for holding the Government to account.

 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Is it really an open door Bill?

The door is already there but a very small percentage of UK business is prepared to turn the handle.

A report some time ago indicated that the main barriers to trade were language,finance and distance.

Bottom line is that the majority of UK companies would rather do business on their doorstep than the other side of the world.

PS My wife's niece is at uni in China and she brought me some Mackies potato crisps that she had bought cheaper than available in the UK. Makes you wonder if domestic customers are paying a premium to support foreign exports.

 

Sandy, yes it is. See my my post #4235 to Mommysboy.

 

The UK will not cease trading with the EU on Brexit day though a lot of things will have to be changed. Neither the UK nor the EU can afford to do that despite the bluster from politics on both sides.

 

At the very least the member countries of the TPP will not insist on laying down laws that the UK MUST obey or else.

 

Should we for example want to make a trade deal with Canada it will not take 10 years ass it has in the EU. The UK will be able to negotiate its own trade deals with worrying if nanny EU will let us or one country will block it.

 

Be like Saul on the road to Tarsus and join us Brexiteers. Think positive.

[My Thai Life]

13 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Little Englanders can gas on all they want.  Any opinion poll I've seen shows a majority- a big majority- want a single market type/customs union option.  Stop trying to go against the public will and Brexit could be resolved quickly.  keep going and you're heading for a vote of no confidence.

 

Top marks for Labour on this one for holding the Government to account.

Hi MB, you seem to be one of the better-mannered guys, so I don't know why you need the "Little Englanders" dig!

 

I haven't been following this aspect of polling at all, but I've done a quick search and come up with this below, it doesn't seem to support what you are saying.

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44532288

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by My Thai Life

[whatsupdoc]

3 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Anyone who is interested in the truth just needs to read the history of the thread.

 

I would make a distinction between the international trolls and EU citizens who rightly have an interest in the outcome. Nevertheless, many of those EU-citizen posters rely on sarcasm and abuse - frequently one liners, and even single word replies - just read the history if you need evidence.

 

Yes you are right, Brexit does affect the EU. So why have we seen so little comment (if any) on that point from the remain side? 

I have been following all Brexit threads for a long time already. I have seen Brexiteers stating that the EU is equivalent to Nazi Germany, stating that the EU leaders are parasites, ridiculing Mr. Juncker and do not get me started on the many ill informed replies devoid of any substance at all. Like you said, just read the history if you need evidence.

Probably every poster has more tolerance for the side they sympathize with....

 

I think the damage for the EU is pretty obvious (especially for Ireland but also for a country like the Netherlands which exports a lot to the UK) and it has been well documented what the expected damage in GDP for all EU countries would be in either a hard- or soft-Brexit.

But contrary to the belief of many Brexiteers, the EU respects the Brexit vote and wants to reach a future trade deal. But obviously, that cannot benefit the UK while at the same time be detrimental to the EU and SM itself. The huge and continuous uncertainty surrounding Brexit due to infighting in the UK makes it rather hard to predict what form Brexit will take and how it will affect the EU. But any positive outcome is highly unlikely.

[vinny41]

12 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Little Englanders can gas on all they want.  Any opinion poll I've seen shows a majority- a big majority- want a single market type/customs union option.  Stop trying to go against the public will and Brexit could be resolved quickly.  keep going and you're heading for a vote of no confidence.

 

Top marks for Labour on this one for holding the Government to account.

 

17,410,742 people voted to leave in the EU eu_referendum the largest number of people in any Vote in the UK Every household received a leaflet from the Goverment that clearly stated if you vote leave the UK would be leaving both the single market and the Custom Union, If Labour was to state that under a Labour Goverment the UK would stay in the single market and custom Union or hold a 2nd  referendum with an option to remain on the voting paper they stand to lose potential 5.1 million Labour voters 

that voted to leave.

[mommysboy]

23 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Hi MB, you seem to be one of the better-mannered guys, so I don't know why you need the "Little Englanders" dig!

 

I haven't been following this aspect of polling at all, but I've done a quick search and come up with this below, it doesn't seem to support what you are saying.

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44532288

 

 

See post 4207.  

 

The Union is important to me.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

not quite Nash equilibrium yet, but getting closer by the week

 

Yes, tending toward; I agree

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

have been following all Brexit threads for a long time already. I have seen Brexiteers stating that the EU is equivalent to Nazi Germany, stating that the EU leaders are parasites, ridiculing Mr. Juncker and do not get me started on the many ill informed replies devoid of any substance at all. Like you said, just read the history if you need evidence.

Probably every poster has more tolerance for the side they sympathize with....

 

I think the damage for the EU is pretty obvious (especially for Ireland but also for a country like the Netherlands which exports a lot to the UK) and it has been well documented what the expected damage in GDP for all EU countries would be in either a hard- or soft-Brexit.

But contrary to the belief of many Brexiteers, the EU respects the Brexit vote and wants to reach a future trade deal. But obviously, that cannot benefit the UK while at the same time be detrimental to the EU and SM itself. The huge and continuous uncertainty surrounding Brexit due to infighting in the UK makes it rather hard to predict what form Brexit will take and how it will affect the EU. But any positive outcome is highly unlikely.

A good reply. By the way, I didn't say that there were no brexiters who posted sarcastic comments - merely that the balance of nastiness to other posters is on the remain side.

 

As I've said many times, I am not a brexiter (or a remainer), I see both sides of the debate. But I have found myself taking the brexit side on this thread as a response to the nastiness of the remainers. I've also found it necessary to provide information from respected sources to counter some of the inaccurate assertions made here by remainers.

 

For many brexiters the ability of the UK to control its trade policy is a positive outcome.  So I can't agree with you that a "positive outcome is highly unlikely". Remainers seem to be oblivious to the non-economic aspects of brexit, but for brexiters these non-economic factors are probably the most important.

 

As for Juncker, let me remind you again what he said, and how he sees respect for democracy (these are not my opinions, they are his own):

 

On the Lisbon treaty: “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

 

On the Euro: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

 

Or how about Juncker's corruption regarding Selmayr:

 

"Ombudsman Emily O'Reilly identified four counts of maladministration by the European Commission.

She said the affair had damaged public trust in EU institutions.

Ms O'Reilly agreed with the European Parliament's assessment that the promotion had "stretched and possibly even overstretched the limits of the law"."

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45407247

Edited October 9, 2018 by My Thai Life

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

A good reply. By the way, I didn't say that there were no brexiters who posted sarcastic comments - merely that the balance of nastiness to other posters is on the remain side.

 

As I've said many times, I am not a brexiter (or a remainer), I see both sides of the debate. But I have found myself taking the brexit side on this thread as a response to the nastiness of the remainers. I've also found it necessary to provide information from respected sources to counter some of the inaccurate assertions made here by remainers.

 

For many brexiters the ability of the UK to control its trade policy is a positive outcome.  So I can't agree with you that a "positive outcome is highly unlikely". Remainers seem to be oblivious to the non-economic aspects of brexit, but for brexiters these non-economic factors are probably the most important.

 

As for Juncker, let me remind you again what he said, and how he sees respect for democracy (these are not my opinions, they are his own):

 

On the Lisbon treaty: “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

 

On the Euro: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

 

Or how about Juncker's corruption regarding Selmayr:

 

"Ombudsman Emily O'Reilly identified four counts of maladministration by the European Commission.

She said the affair had damaged public trust in EU institutions.

Ms O'Reilly agreed with the European Parliament's assessment that the promotion had "stretched and possibly even overstretched the limits of the law"."

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45407247

You keep positioning yourself as being in the middle between leavers and remainers but constantly take the Brexiteers side. Sorry, but not that convincing to me... But it doesn't matter, we all have our biases.

Like me, I used to sympathize with the remain camp (still do) but by now I am looking forward to a hard Brexit. The nastiness of the Brexiteers got to me and now I think they deserve the mess they created (and even more, likely going to get next year). It seems the only way they might understand the benefits of being an EU member.

 

Being an EU citizen I care most about the EU. And for the UK I think they will find out that there will be no major changes to the non-economic issues they voted for after Brexit. Sovereignty was always there and changes in immigration? Just wait and see.

 

Your quotes by Juncker are a bit cherry picking. He thinks and does what most politicians do but apparently admitted it in public. So what? In fact, I would think Boris Johnson has said worse things in public and many Brexiteers would gladly see him as the next PM.

[kwilco]

"it hasn't happened yet"

 

It now seems certain that whatever kind of Brexit they get, it will severely damage or eventually destroy the NHS. 

Small wonder so many Brexit MPs have vested interests in private healthcare.......

 

 

[kwilco]

Project fear.?

 

How's about project critical thinking?

 

"There are no robust counterpoints, no detailed mathematical breakdowns which clearly demonstrates exactly how and why the experts are wrong – those two words are really all that’s on offer here."

 

https://mylifeasgraham.blog/2018/10/07/believe-in-brexit-or-well-burn-your-house-down/

 

 

[BwindiBoy]

59 minutes ago, kwilco said:

"it hasn't happened yet"

 

It now seems certain that whatever kind of Brexit they get, it will severely damage or eventually destroy the NHS. 

Small wonder so many Brexit MPs have vested interests in private healthcare.......

 

 

"" It now seems certain "", does it? Just stop with your continued scare mongering. Please!

[kwilco]

Further evidence that UK and in particular Brexiteers are shoo themselves in the foot......

 

"a disorderly Brexit falling back on the minimalist WTO framework for trade could cost more than a million jobs across Britain” due to trade barriers such as tariffs, regulatory barriers and customs checks impeding trade."

 

https://www.businesscornwall.co.uk/news-by-industry/public-sector-news-categories/2018/10/brexit-could-hit-cornwall-hardest/

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by kwilco

[kwilco]

27 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

"" It now seems certain "", does it? Just stop with your continued scare mongering. Please!

QED

I suppose at least we agree it's scary?

Edited October 9, 2018 by kwilco

[kwilco]

31 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

"" It now seems certain "", does it? Just stop with your continued scare mongering. Please!

Do you SERIOUSLY think, the NHS will improve or even be the same after Brexit??

What do you know that the Lancet doesn't?

Edited October 9, 2018 by kwilco

[BwindiBoy]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

QED

I suppose at least we agree it's scary?

No. It's liberating. And, thanks to people such as yourself, very very tedious. 

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Do you SERIOUSLY think, the NHS will improve or even be the same after Brexit??

What do you know that the Lancet doesn't?

Here a pro brexit article from the Lancet

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31736-7/fulltext

[BwindiBoy]

5 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Do you SERIOUSLY think, the NHS will improve or even be the same after Brexit??

What do you know that the Lancet doesn't?

If it isn't, it won't be BECAUSE of Brexit. Unlike the Lancet, I have no agenda. I just want us to get on with it, as soon as possible - it'll take up to 10 years, but eventually we'll be way way better off without the E.U. (which probably won't even exist by then).

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Project fear.?

 

How's about project critical thinking?

 

"There are no robust counterpoints, no detailed mathematical breakdowns which clearly demonstrates exactly how and why the experts are wrong – those two words are really all that’s on offer here."

 

https://mylifeasgraham.blog/2018/10/07/believe-in-brexit-or-well-burn-your-house-down/

 

 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, BwindiBoy said:

No. It's liberating. And, thanks to people such as yourself, very very tedious. 

Liberating from tedious things ;oke having a job, food to eat and a roof over your head.

[aright]

43 minutes ago, tebee said:

Liberating from tedious things ;oke having a job, food to eat and a roof over your head.

Yes things  are so much better in the EU 

 

EU

 

   

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/People_at_risk_of_poverty_or_social_exclusion

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by aright

[mommysboy]

11 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Neither is the one which is closing.

 

At least the TPP will not be laying down any laws that the UK MUST obey.

 

The TPP consists of  Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, Vietnam as the USA has withdrawn.

 

If /when we sign up with them and wish to do a deal with Canada for example it will not take 10 years as it has in the EU.

 

We will not cease trading with the EU, nor they with us.

 

Think positively like a Brexiteer, instead of negatively like a Remainer.

If you are doing business and you have to 'think positively' that's a warning sign. Business is about sound planning and strategy, not crossed fingers.  I'm neither addicted to optimism or in to wild gambles in all honesty.

 

But it isn't about this really- the people voted leave, but most do not favour either of the hard Brexits presented thus far. Simple as...

[mommysboy]

10 hours ago, vinny41 said:

17,410,742 people voted to leave in the EU eu_referendum the largest number of people in any Vote in the UK Every household received a leaflet from the Goverment that clearly stated if you vote leave the UK would be leaving both the single market and the Custom Union, If Labour was to state that under a Labour Goverment the UK would stay in the single market and custom Union or hold a 2nd  referendum with an option to remain on the voting paper they stand to lose potential 5.1 million Labour voters 

that voted to leave.

People simply want a much better option.  Whatever they should or should not have known is immaterial.  And quite frankly it's a bit rich considering the pledged made and the continual polyphonic message coming out of even senior cabinet ministers.

 

It won't just be Labour voting down whatever the Government comes back with- it will also be DUP, Scots Nats, SDP, and quite possibly a good number of Tories.

 

The electorate wants much more than the miserable deal that looks likely. The Scots and N.I are both mightily opposed to current offers.  Even Tory England is divided.

 

I doubt Labour will be jeopardising up to 5 million voters. We might with the same thinking surmise that Tories could lose the same amount.

 

A second referendum would likely be on the nature of the deal. I can't see why anyone would object to that, given a Dog's Brexit looks to be on the cards.

 

Anyone who cares about democracy, will surely agree that what the people want is the primary thing here.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by mommysboy

[tebee]

13 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

....

 

At least the TPP will not be laying down any laws that the UK MUST obey.

 

...

   The TPP has clauses about the following areas, which must be enacted in the local laws of counties that join it :-

 

 

 Trade barriers

 Environmental protection
 Good governance
 Human rights
 Intellectual property
 Pharmaceuticals
 Investor-state arbitration
 Labour standards
 Regulatory cooperation

 

All trade agreements will affect your local laws - it's the only way to stop abuse of them to gain competitive advantage. 

[Grouse]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/09/ignorance-is-bliss-for-the-brexit-secretary#comments

 

Raab clarifies everything ????