UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[hawksway]

The question is, will Government ever give their Citizens the information to make a sensible decision?

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, kwilco said:

You clearly don't understand the nature of the UK's constitution. It's unwritten - or at least not in one place - and runs on precedence.

Not entirely by precedence

 
The United Kingdom does not have a codified constitution. However, a number of texts are considered to be constitutional, such that the "constitution of the United Kingdom" or "British constitution" may refer to a number of historical and momentous laws and principles that make up the country's body politic. Thus the term "UK constitution" is sometimes said to refer to an "unwritten" or uncodified constitution.The British constitution primarily draws from four sources: statute law (laws passed by the legislature), common law (laws established through court judgments), parliamentary conventions, and works of authority. Similar to a constitutional document, it also concerns both the relationship between the individual and the state and the functioning of the legislature, the executive, and the judiciary.

[vinny41]

13 minutes ago, kwilco said:

"The Government will implement what you decide" - this is the classic statement of dictators who try to legitimise their manipulations (i.e. referenda etc) "in the name of the people" - that is their claim 100%.

 

It has proved a very effective method of sucking people in - QED

I personally never thought of Harold Wilson as a dicatator but in 1975 here is what he wrote

"For it is you vote that will decide. The Goverment will accept your verdict"

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/08/the-1975-common-market-referendum-campaign-documents.html

[hawksway]

Yes of course, a mixture of judicial precedence (case law -criminal a civil) with elements of Canon Law (the law of the Catholic Church)

[tebee]

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

Have you got a link to a dictator saying this and are you saying that David Cameron is a dictator, your posts get more rediculous by the day.

Written by Joseph Goebbels and Mjölnir, Die verfluchten Hakenkreuzler. Etwas zum Nachdenken (Munich: Verlag Frz. Eher, 1932). Translated as “Those Damned Nazis,” (propaganda pamphlet).

The nation and the government in Germany are one thing. The will of the people is the will of the government and vice versa. The modern structure of the German State is a higher form of democracy [ennobled democracy] in which, by virtue of the people’s mandate, the government is exercised authoritatively while there is no possibility for parliamentary interference, to obliterate and render ineffective the execution of the nation’s will.

[vinny41]

32 minutes ago, tebee said:

Yes, but it has a constitution based on cumulative acts of parliament and judicial precedent which is legally binding - so you can't just change it on a whim - would you want to live in the sort of country where it could be changed on a whim?

I am afraid I don't know anything about the Constitution of France or the Constitution of Thailand and can they be changed on a whim or not

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I am afraid I don't know anything about the Constitution of France or the Constitution of Thailand and can they be changed on a whim or not

Short answer - NO 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_France

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Thailand

[billd766]

19 hours ago, oilinki said:

I have a feeling, those Northern Ireland leave voters will be soon moving back to motherland. 

 

They are actually in their motherland of Northern Ireland.

 

When will you be moving back to your motherland?

[tebee]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

They are actually in their motherland of Northern Ireland.

 

When will you be moving back to your motherland?

 

No they are immigrants there - at least the children of an originally immigrant population

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Sir Ivan Rogers latest speech

Thanks for the link to Ivan Rogers’ speech. As always he has a deep insight to many the confusions and issues surrounding Brexit.

 

But as usual he has no solutions. However he does reject quite clearly the idea of a second referendum:

 

“The fact that the European question has helped turn our political debate both somewhat, indeed sometimes seriously, mad and increasingly polarised and toxic should, I think, worry us all. It’s hard, in my view, to think of anything that would toxify it more than a further referendum.”

 

An orderly exit from the EU’s regulatory regime is not going to be easy or fast, but that isn’t a good reason not to do it.

[My Thai Life]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

No they are immigrants there - at least the children of an originally immigrant population

LOL, this kind of comment just undermines your credibility.

 

Perhaps you'd  like the US (etc etc etc) "immigrants" of the last few hundred years to return home too.

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by My Thai Life

[tebee]

8 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

LOL, this kind of comment just undermines your credibility.

 

Perhaps you'd  like the US (etc etc etc) "immigrants" of the last few hundred years to return home too.

 

That was meant as a joke - I see I need to use < sarcasm > tags again 

 

But like all the best sarcasm it has a little bit of basis in reality - that is the way some of the Irish see them... 

[billd766]

13 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

LOL, this kind of comment just undermines your credibility.

 

Perhaps you'd  like the US (etc etc etc) "immigrants" of the last few hundred years to return home too.

 

 

In fact Tebee is a British immigrant to France. Perhaps he should return to the UK also.

[transam]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

 

In fact Tebee is a British immigrant to France. Perhaps he should return to the UK also.

Sacre bleu, so that's why he keeps going on and on....Reminds me of blokes who give up smoking and slag off smokers....????

[tebee]

16 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Thanks for the link to Ivan Rogers’ speech. As always he has a deep insight to many the confusions and issues surrounding Brexit.

 

But as usual he has no solutions. However he does reject quite clearly the idea of a second referendum:

 

“The fact that the European question has helped turn our political debate both somewhat, indeed sometimes seriously, mad and increasingly polarised and toxic should, I think, worry us all. It’s hard, in my view, to think of anything that would toxify it more than a further referendum.”

 

An orderly exit from the EU’s regulatory regime is not going to be easy or fast, but that isn’t a good reason not to do it.

 

 

I'm not exactly in favor of a second referendum myself, however I would support it if it the only way we can overcome "the will of the people" objections.

 

My preference would be  to abandon the the current Brexit, which leaves the UK at such a disadvantage in the negotiations, then we have discussions nationally about what sort of Brexit we want. Then if we decide to go forward, we start negotiations   for a Brexit with a long (maybe 10 year) transition period that will give people and business time to adapt to the new regime and us time to negotiate  those nice new trade deal to replace the EU ones.

 

Right now I am more worried about the uk heading for chaos, the brexit itself happening.   

[tebee]

7 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

In fact Tebee is a British immigrant to France. Perhaps he should return to the UK also.

Well, you never know, in the event of no deal I might have to .....

 

Maybe I can claim political asylum as a rebel ....

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

Sacre bleu, so that's why he keeps going on and on....Reminds me of blokes who give up smoking and slag off smokers....????

Smokers are well aware what they do is utterly stupid and self destructing. They choose to do it anyway. Is it the same with Brexiters?

[transam]

Just now, oilinki said:

Smokers are well aware what they do is utterly stupid and self destructing. They choose to do it anyway. Is it the same with Brexiters?

And you don't drive a diesel either..????

[My Thai Life]

6 minutes ago, tebee said:

But like all the best sarcasm it has a little bit of basis in reality - that is the way some of the Irish see them... 

Ok. So much of this thread is sarcasm I often fail to tell the difference!

 

Back to Ivan Rogers' speech. His uncritical acceptance of Barnier's position on the Irish issue, or should I say issues, is one of the weakest parts of his presentation.

 

The EU/Barnier's position is (1) quite clearly hypocritical to any impartial observer (like myself) (2) based on a misinterpretation of WTO border rules (3) based on a misrepresentation of the EU's responsibilities (or lack of) in maintaining (if that's the right word) the Good Friday Accord (4) highly politicised in placing the Irish border as a roadblock in the exit process.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

94% of Land Rover sales and which are assembled in their Solihull plant are diesel, and that is a part of the reason for their two week shut down and their redundancies.  But what percentage of Jaguars are diesel?  Not so many!  So why is the slump in diesel being blamed for the 3 day week at Castle Bromwich?

+ UK new car sales are all down.

+ October is generally a poor month after the September new registrations.

+ Diesel is out of favour as a fuel due to recent concerns about PM (Particulate Matter) emissions over Co2.

+ VW's "Dieselgate" affair has scared a lot of oil burning vehicle buyers away. 

+ The new ULEZ (Ultra Low Emissions Zone) in London is very costly if your vehicle does not comply with regulations and you need to get in to that area regularly and a high % of JLR owners live in the more affluent SE and London. 

 

[My Thai Life]

19 minutes ago, tebee said:

Right now I am more worried about the uk heading for chaos, the brexit itself happening. 

Given your very strong remain position over the last few months I have to say that I suspect you are being slightly disingenuous here.

 

Myself, I have never been happy with British politics. It's one of the many reasons I haven't lived in the UK for several decades. Brexit is a bright light (!) displaying  the many problems of UK politics in all their glory.

[melvinmelvin]

the PM in Ireland,

is he as hardball as the DUP lead lass or is he more flexible/pragmatic re border arrangements?

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

"The Government will implement what you decide" - this is the classic statement of dictators who try to legitimise their manipulations (i.e. referenda etc) "in the name of the people" - that is their claim 100%.

 

It has proved a very effective method of sucking people in - QED

 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Have you got a link to a dictator saying this and are you saying that David Cameron is a dictator, your posts get more rediculous by the day.

 

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

I personally never thought of Harold Wilson as a dicatator but in 1975 here is what he wrote

"For it is you vote that will decide. The Goverment will accept your verdict"

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/08/the-1975-common-market-referendum-campaign-documents.html

Agree.

 

It takes a seriously biased poster to believe that Wilson and Cameron were dictators ????!

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Given your very strong remain position over the last few months I have to say that I suspect you are being slightly disingenuous here.

 

Myself, I have never been happy with British politics. It's one of the many reasons I haven't lived in the UK for several decades. Brexit is a bright light (!) displaying  the many problems of UK politics in all their glory.

OK I am strongly remain - but if Brexit is the will of the people and if we can find a sensible way of doing it I would (reluctantly) accept it. Would not stop me thinking it is wrong though !

 

What I am completly opposed to is the currrent clustfuck which is most certainly not what people voted for and those elements that seem determined to force it through  no matter what the collateral damage.

 

I see remain as the best way of avoiding the chaos, so I  double down on my support for that now,  but my main worry is the  chaos this will result from a disorganized Brexit.

[tebee]

48 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Ok. So much of this thread is sarcasm I often fail to tell the difference!

 

Back to Ivan Rogers' speech. His uncritical acceptance of Barnier's position on the Irish issue, or should I say issues, is one of the weakest parts of his presentation.

 

The EU/Barnier's position is (1) quite clearly hypocritical to any impartial observer (like myself) (2) based on a misinterpretation of WTO border rules (3) based on a misrepresentation of the EU's responsibilities (or lack of) in maintaining (if that's the right word) the Good Friday Accord (4) highly politicised in placing the Irish border as a roadblock in the exit process.

I don't see anywhere were he expressly accepts Barnier's position on the Irish issue?

 

(1) I can only say am I not as impartial in this as you? Because I don't see anything  hypocritical .

(2) It's not just WTO rules that force a hard border - It's the EU's desire to prevent contamination of the single market through a porous border.  

(3) the EU helped broker the Good Friday Accord and is a guarantor of the agreement, it has a legal obligation to keep it in force.

(4) The Irish state insisted on the problem being solved - they are a member post Brexit, we are not. It's a good demonstration to other small EU countries of the benefits of EU membership! 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

+ UK new car sales are all down.

+ October is generally a poor month after the September new registrations.

+ Diesel is out of favour as a fuel due to recent concerns about PM (Particulate Matter) emissions over Co2.

+ VW's "Dieselgate" affair has scared a lot of oil burning vehicle buyers away. 

+ The new ULEZ (Ultra Low Emissions Zone) in London is very costly if your vehicle does not comply with regulations and you need to get in to that area regularly and a high % of JLR owners live in the more affluent SE and London. 

 

Please stop posting facts and common sense on this thread.

 

You know that it confuses and irritates some of the many Remainers.

[tebee]

Brextremism is hard - government  are not very good at it 

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/brextremism-is-hard/

[whatsupdoc]

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

I don't see anywhere were he expressly accepts Barnier's position on the Irish issue?

 

(1) I can only say am I not as impartial in this as you? Because I don't see anything  hypocritical .

(2) It's not just WTO rules that force a hard border - It's the EU's desire to prevent contamination of the single market through a porous border.  

(3) the EU helped broker the Good Friday Accord and is a guarantor of the agreement, it has a legal obligation to keep it in force.

(4) The Irish state insisted on the problem being solved - they are a member post Brexit, we are not. It's a good demonstration to other small EU countries of the benefits of EU membership! 

Excellent reply and do not worry about (1). Impartial is something My Thai Life is definitely not (but you knew that already I guess).

The EU/Barnier position has been clear and consistent right from the beginning. Had the Brexiteers (and UK government) listened better they would have known a long time ago what is achievable and what not.

[My Thai Life]

22 minutes ago, tebee said:

don't see anywhere were he expressly accepts Barnier's position on the Irish issue?

 

(1) I can only say am I not as impartial in this as you? Because I don't see anything  hypocritical .

(2) It's not just WTO rules that force a hard border - It's the EU's desire to prevent contamination of the single market through a porous border.  

(3) the EU helped broker the Good Friday Accord and is a guarantor of the agreement, it has a legal obligation to keep it in force.

(4) The Irish state insisted on the problem being solved - they are a member post Brexit, we are not. It's a good demonstration to other small EU countries of the benefits of EU membership! 

Well you need to read it again then.

 

1 You're not impartial at all though are you. The hypocrisy is plain as day, but people who wear blinkers rarely see what they don't want to see.

2 Wrong 

3 Wrong

4 So far the Irish state hasn't contributed anything to the discussion.

[My Thai Life]

Owen Paterson, the former secretary of state for Northern Ireland and Defra (Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) describes the EU’s hypocrisy on the Irish border as that the EU:

 

“believes the integrity of the single market can be guaranteed with checks set back from the British/Northern Ireland border, then the same principle can surely be applied to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.”

 

This quote and those below are from today’s Guardian.

 

“Northern Ireland’s sales to the Republic of Ireland account for less than 0.2% of the United Kingdom’s GDP. In order to facilitate that tiny fraction, it would be ridiculous to forgo our ability to reduce tariffs and strike new trade deals around the world, when the IMF predicts that 90% of global economic growth will be outside Europe in the next decade.”

 

“This ignores the fact that there is already a border – for tax, currency, excise and security – that is managed seamlessly with existing technical and administrative procedures. It’s clear that many people have an outdated vision of borders – some still seem to imagine customs posts manned by officers in tricorn hats and knee breeches, lowering striped poles to stop stagecoaches, inspecting barrels of brandy with wooden ladles.

 

Modern borders are tax points, not inspection points. World Trade Organization rules do not require checks at the physical border. The UK inspects 4% of imports, and the Republic of Ireland only 1%. Sanitary and phytosanitary checks – which EU law requires “in the immediate vicinity of the point of entry” – can occur considerable distances from the border. In Rotterdam, for instance, posts are located up to 20km from the docks themselves.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/11/irish-border-fair-brexit-deal-theresa-may

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by My Thai Life