UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[tebee]

Norway offers way out of the Brexit maze

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/08374ad8-d899-11e8-9c20-5eb2e7b96a26

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, mommysboy said:

In the final analysis, is it not possible to comfortably predict that Brexit will fail-at least in the short term- just because the EU wants it to fail?  That's the price...isn't it?

 

And, as a reluctant Remainer, I do have to ask myself why it is some of our most prominent politicians also agree with Leavers that it is imperative to Leave.  Corbyn, in particular is a canny fox.

 

This notwithstanding, I believe the Government has been woeful in the performance of its duties to the country.

 

The best result imo is to ditch Brexit.  I don't see how this threatens democracy or brings the vote in to disrepute- The Government maybe.

 

You're arguing against yourself IMO, although I'm sure you think you're trying to be fair and reasonable.

 

I've no idea how you can possibly believe that ditching brexit wouldn't threaten democracy.

 

The vast majority of brits. already don't trust politicians (IIRC, they are 'trusted' on a similar level to used car salesmen ????) - and ditching brexit could only increase the level of distrust.

[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I used to work in a brit. company with many subsidiaries in other companies - and they had no problem bringing in a few well-paid/anticipated 'high flyer' employees (from non-eu country subsidiaries) to provide them with experience in GHO.

 

You're trying to turn a 'non' problem' into a 'problem' - when it comes to well-paid, intelligent people - who have mostly always been able to easily obtain employment visas when they are offered jobs in the uk, or elsewhere.

 

The problem has always centred around non-skilled workers paid the minimum wage (at best) - which has badly affected the poorest paid brit. workers, and 'trickled up' the chain.  Which has proven to be far more effective than the 'trickle down' theory!

 

 

It's a complex issue, and undoubtedly a sad fact that most Brits will just not do the jobs- fruit picking exemplifying the point.  If there was cheaper housing, if it was a little better paid, if the poor were given further tax concessions then perhaps.  Conversely, our so called skilled workers appear unqualified to do the jobs higher up the chain. 

[My Thai Life]

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Most Leavers here seem to be incapable of posting without insults, often in one liners devoid of logic and facts, as you have demonstrated again.  Actually, a good portion of the "Leavers" here are international trolls with no vote on the matter any way. And you?

 

I accepted the referendum result on the way in, and I accepted the referendum result on the way out.

 

Referenda are a "device for dictators and demagogues" only when they don't go your way right.

LOL, spot the not-so-deliberate mistake. Please replace "Leavers" with "Remainers".

 

Anyone in any doubt just use the evidence of the last few days/weeks/months.

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

It's a complex issue, and undoubtedly a sad fact that most Brits will just not do the jobs- fruit picking exemplifying the point.  If there was cheaper housing, if it was a little better paid, if the poor were given further tax concessions then perhaps.  Conversely, our so called skilled workers appear unqualified to do the jobs higher up the chain. 

"and undoubtedly a sad fact that most Brits will just not do the jobs- fruit picking exemplifying the point."

 

It's not a "fact" - just an argument used by employers.  A few of us argued/discussed this on another thread a long time ago.

 

"If there was cheaper housing, if it was a little better paid, if the poor were given further tax concessions"

 

Agree entirely, but this isn't the case - and they stand no chance as long as there is a never ending influx of cheap, unskilled labour from far poorer eu countries.

 

 

[mommysboy]

29 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're arguing against yourself IMO, although I'm sure you think you're trying to be fair and reasonable.

 

I've no idea how you can possibly believe that ditching brexit wouldn't threaten democracy.

 

The vast majority of brits. already don't trust politicians (IIRC, they are 'trusted' on a similar level to used car salesmen ????) - and ditching brexit could only increase the level of distrust.

To extol the virtues of one thing and place it above all other competing and equally compelling aspects is a form of fundamentalism. It is not democracy.  With Brexit, quite demonstrably, the concept of frustration is in play.

 

It was only one vote, and, as Soubry said 'ill defined and not deliverable'.  Ditching Brexit, would throw our politicians in to disrepute, but not the vote. 

 

I would have preferred to leave as a matter of the heart, but foresaw the trouble which would ensue. Perhaps the contradiction you describe reflects this ambivalence. 

 

Ultimately, I see myself as a pragmatist, the actual vote matters little to me, it's doing something with the most possible gain and the least damage which is vital.

 

To this end, ditching Brexit would be the best though most unlikely outcome.  A swift exit under WTO rules could have worked but the time has now gone. 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by mommysboy

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

The best result imo is to ditch Brexit.  I don't see how this threatens democracy or brings the vote in to disrepute- The Government maybe.

 

Really!? Astonishing thing to say, IMO.

 

To render the people's democratic vote on our membership of the EU an exercise in futility is not undemocratic? If it was overturned or ignored (especially at this stage) it would destroy the gen. public's last remaining iota of respect and belief in the political class and would undoubtedly dismantle the notion of parliamentary democracy in the UK, making it an even bigger laughing stock and seriously damaging all concerned. It would be political suicide for May et al of course and it would seriously harm the UK and many of its important institutions with ramifications that would go far beyond the here and now or even tomorrow. I think there would be immense civil unrest and I would totally understand why. If the people are offered the vote by the government  (voted in with the referendum as a central part of their manifesto that won them the GE), are then given their answer by a clear (if reasonably small) majority and then don't listen to the verdict of the people that they offered the decision to in the first place... there would be an almighty shit-storm, and rightly so.

 

Those of us on the Leave side also recognise the inherent undemocratic nature of the EU and its ridiculously contrived system of legislation, intentionally opaque rabbit warren of departments, councils and committees and it's toothless EU Parliament. To ditch Brexit alone would be undemocratic, to then rejoin the EU and have to renegotiate terms would be anti-democratic federalism of the worst kind. It wouldn't wash and won't happen, but I'm a little amazed you made the above statement to the contrary as you seem generally lucid and intelligent. ????

 

No condescension intended, honest!

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

12 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"and undoubtedly a sad fact that most Brits will just not do the jobs- fruit picking exemplifying the point."

 

It's not a "fact" - just an argument used by employers.  A few of us argued/discussed this on another thread a long time ago.

 

"If there was cheaper housing, if it was a little better paid, if the poor were given further tax concessions"

 

Agree entirely, but this isn't the case - and they stand no chance as long as there is a never ending influx of cheap, unskilled labour from far poorer eu countries.

 

 

'It's not a "fact" - just an argument used by employers.  A few of us argued/discussed this on another thread a long time ago.'

 

Are you sure?  Only recently I listened to a Radio4 prog. where the farm manager said that perhaps as little as 1 in a 100 applicants were British, and those Brits they do employ quit after a few days.  To my mind, it's hard work, but profitable for a student especially.  Unfortunately, and nobody likes to talk about it, but many Brits appear very overweight from an increasingly early age- simply unfit.

[mommysboy]

12 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Really!? Astonishing thing to say, IMO.

 

To render the people's democratic vote on our membership of the EU an exercise in futility is not undemocratic? If it was overturned or ignored (especially at this stage) it would destroy the last remaining iota of respect and belief in the political class and would undoubtedly dismantle the notion of parliamentary democracy in the UK, making it an even bigger laughing stock and seriously damaging all concerned. Would be political suicide of May et al and it would harm the UK with ramifications that would go far beyond the here and now or even tomorrow. I think there would be immense civil unrest and I would totally understand why. If the people are offered the vote by the government  (voted in with the referendum as a central part of their manifesto that won them the GE), are then given their answer by a clear (if reasonably small) majority and then don't listen to the verdict of the people that they offered the decision to in the first place... there would be shit-storm, and righly so

 

Those of us on the Leave side also recognise the inherent (in-built) undemocratic nature of the EU and its ridiculously contrived system of legislation, intentionally opaque rabbit warren of departments, councils and committees and it's toothless EU Parliament. To ditch Brexit alone would be undemocratic, to then rejoin the EU and have to renegotiate terms would be anti-democratic federalism of the worst kind. It wouldn't wash.

 

 

 

 

I did say unlikely. I think a second referendum brings democracy in to disrepute-possibly, but not just shelving the idea.  Just saying something can't be done as envisaged, well that's just a simple statement of truth, isn't it?

 

Rules of everyday and business common sense should apply to Brexit as they do to buying a loaf of bread. Who wants crap?

 

However, Brexit is a bad cake, the eating of which does not match its mouth watering appearance.  Like all bad cakes, it should have inched its way along the kitchen top, until it toppled in to the waste bin.

 

I feel like the little boy in the story of the 'Emperor and his new robes'????

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

How has the democracy inherent in the Brexit vote served Scotland and Northern Ireland? Anyone can see the format was unsuitable. At best it should have been a super majority, and a block vote. Why continue with something which is inherently poor?  For the sake of some abstract notion of democracy... no way.  We need to get real- sometimes the effect before our eyes says all.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

17 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I did say unlikely. I think a second referendum brings democracy in to disrepute-possibly, but not just shelving the idea.  Just saying something can't be done as envisaged, well that's just a simple statement of truth, isn't it?

 

Rules of everyday and business common sense should apply to Brexit as they do to buying a loaf of bread. Who wants crap?

 

However, Brexit is a bad cake, the eating of which does not match its mouth watering appearance.  Like all bad cakes, it should have inched its way along the kitchen top, until it toppled in to the waste bin.

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, I respectfully disagree. As 'shelving the idea' is just a repackaging of 'denying the result fruition'. Not many people who voted to Leave imagined it would be an easy, rapid or pain free process, but opposed the idea of remaining in and continuing with the same societal paradigm.

 

We can argue about the pros and cons of the EU and Brexit thus far too, but not what the outcome of Brexit will be, as that would be an exercise in predicting the future, and that alone. The mid-longer term future is what will count in any case.

 

We simply don't know that the outcome will be 'crap' or devastating to the UK in any meaningful way, the opposite is just as likely, more so I would say, as would a great many other more informed and experienced people.

 

So the proof of the pudding really is in the eating, we just need a chance to consume the meal on offer, having the menu ripped away from us after making our order would be a step too far, and, yes, totally undemocratic. Just as a 2nd referendum would be. Both are precedents that should never be set.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Well -  no one could have foreseen this!

 

Argentina will exploit a no-deal Brexit to 'enhance' its claims to Falklands, says its foreign minister 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/25/argentina-will-exploit-no-deal-brexit-enhance-falklands-claims/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

Typical. This is what happened last time they were in an economic mess.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Well -  no one could have foreseen this!

 

Argentina will exploit a no-deal Brexit to 'enhance' its claims to Falklands, says its foreign minister 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/25/argentina-will-exploit-no-deal-brexit-enhance-falklands-claims/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

Of course.  And just about any country that feels it has a grievance with the UK.  For that matter, even friendly countries will put UK as low on the pecking order as possible, so as to protect their own interests.

[transam]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

How has the democracy inherent in the Brexit vote served Scotland and Northern Ireland? Anyone can see the format was unsuitable. At best it should have been a super majority, and a block vote. Why continue with something which is inherently poor?  For the sake of some abstract notion of democracy... no way.  We need to get real- sometimes the effect before our eyes says all.

So why is, in you opinion, the present UK gov in power when they didn't win the peoples vote..Brexit was actually won by the peoples vote..?

 
 

 

 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Of course.  And just about any country that feels it has a grievance with the UK.  For that matter, even friendly countries will put UK as low on the pecking order as possible, so as to protect their own interests.

Romania....?

[maximillian]

Vote until the result fits your expectations.

Vote again in the US. Killary or Trumpel.

If voting doesn't help, change the procedures.

Edited October 26, 2018 by maximillian

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

Romania....?

Remoania... perhaps? ????

 

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

So why is, in you opinion, the present UK gov in power when they didn't win the peoples vote..Brexit was actually won by the peoples vote..?

Different voting system. The people are the electorate whichever voting system. Not some nebulous nationalist vaguery which some are grasping at.

[tebee]

7 minutes ago, transam said:

Romania....?

Moldova

[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Fair enough, I respectfully disagree. As 'shelving the idea' is just a repackaging of 'denying the result fruition'. Not many people who voted to Leave imagined it would be an easy, rapid or pain free process, but opposed the idea of remaining in and continuing with the same societal paradigm.

 

We can argue about the pros and cons of the EU and Brexit thus far too, but not what the outcome of Brexit will be, as that would be an exercise in predicting the future. The mid-longer term future is what will count in any case.

 

We simply don't know that the outcome will be 'crap' or devastating to the UK in any meaningful way, the opposite is just as likely, more so I would say, as would a great many other more informed and experienced people.

 

So the proof of the pudding really is in the eating, we just need a chance to consume the meal on offer, having the menu ripped away from us after making our order would be a step too far, and, yes, totally undemocratic. Just as 2nd referendum would be. Both are precedents that should never be set.

 

 

Love the restaurant imagery.

 

I see the point you make.  I would disagree that the average voter fully realised what they were getting in to and the latest Mori poll seems to confirm that.  Yet, I do think England basically wanted to leave, and still does- not at any cost though.

 

And again, there are an equal number of experienced and more informed people who say that Brexit in any form will have a negative effect on the economy, rather important bodies too both domestic and international.  

 

To the extent, that Brexit has not delivered the imagined milk and honey free trade deal, we can at least say the delicacy on offer starts to resemble thin gruel.

[SheungWan]

Hard Brexiteer business understanding:

 

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Moldova

And any other entity under the sway of a larger, malign power.

[mommysboy]

11 minutes ago, maximillian said:

Vote until the result fits your expectations.

Vote again in the US. Killary or Trumpel.

If voting doesn't help, change the procedures.

Yes, I don't agree with second referenda.

[mommysboy]

Here's a simple reality check question:

 

Given that the latest incarnation of the Brexit deal is likely to be agreed:

Is it a deal that you had envisaged or are happy with, be you either a Remainer or Leaver?

Edited October 26, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Norway offers way out of the Brexit maze

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/08374ad8-d899-11e8-9c20-5eb2e7b96a26

Perfectly sensible, ergo, it won't happen.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Yes I really do get it. Your "bon mots" might seem bon to you in the warm glow of a couple of Grouses. To the rest of us they are just infantile, and not infrequently abusive, as you prove again here.

 

The question which I addressed to Sandy was why does the Dr in Sandy's quote think there's going to be an increase in smuggling (specifically of dangerous goods) into NI from Ireland after the UK leaves the EU? Your two responses have not even attempted to answer the question, just served the usual purpose of providing you with a platform for cheap insults and lowering the tone of what could be a very interesting thread.

 

I've said repeatedly that I am not a Brexiter. I am just someone who supports referendum results. Failing to do that makes a travesty of democracy.

Clearly you don't get it

 

I don't tolerate fools but I have no intention of insulting you. There is clearly no need.

 

There is a real possibility of a resurgence of sectarian strife as a result of the Brexit shenanigans. As a result, smuggling of weaponry is a real possibility.

 

Now, if you don't like my tone. Ignore me. Frankly, I'm bored with your failure to acknowledge that half the population disagree with you and Brexit in general.

 

Finally, you obviously don't get representative democracy

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

33 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Love the restaurant imagery.

 

I see the point you make.  I would disagree that the average voter fully realised what they were getting in to and the latest Mori poll seems to confirm that.  Yet, I do think England basically wanted to leave, and still does- not at any cost though.

 

And again, there are an equal number of experienced and more informed people who say that Brexit in any form will have a negative effect on the economy, rather important bodies too both domestic and international.  

 

To the extent, that Brexit has not delivered the imagined milk and honey free trade deal, we can at least say the delicacy on offer starts to resemble thin gruel.

 

Ta very much. I like to paint a picture!

 

I don't imagine for a moment that everyone who voted leave knew what would come (in the form of the political hokum, point-scoring and backbiting that Brexit precipitated) but that doesn't mean conversely that remain voters were any more well informed either. People who did understand enough about both the EU/EEA and it's effects on the UK's and European economies/sovereignty and legislative ability etc. voted out knowing full well it wouldn't be an easy gig, as again it was unprecedented.

 

There are many senior economists that are of different schools of thought on Brexit. For me, P.Minford makes the best and most objective case. He's a smart fella. Much of the punditry seems to be more pro-establishment horse**** IMHO, and I would discount many bodies such as the IMF and ECB or even the BoE as I would regard them as parties with 'vested interest' in remaining. Plus, we all know that forecasts made by supposed 'experts' or 'specialised agencies' have a pretty dire track record in recent years, in terms of veracity of predictions - they are simply that, predictions. Successful and united UK post Brexit will rely on many factors, not all economic either.

 

So regarding the promised 'Milk and Honey', same response, it is waaaaaaay too soon to know, I mean - c'mon, we've not even Brexited yet!

So, besides self-fulfilling prophecies that may come about from certain swathes of the population refusing to grow up and adapt, we must suspend judgement on the future of the UK, it will be what we are able to make of it in no small way.

 

Nay-saying won't help, it'll only hinder, and to make grandiose declarations (not accusing you here particularly BTW) about outcomes of Brexit that have yet to happen is just stupid and is evidence of certain people's hope to see Brexit Britain fail, if you ask me.  

 

BUT, I don't want to see Brexit happen at any cost either, specifically the break up of OUR venerable union. That would be a very sad thing to witness. Again, I don't think it will happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Ta very much. I like to paint a picture!

 

I don't imagine for a moment that everyone who voted leave knew what would come (in the form of the political hokum, point-scoring and backbiting that Brexit precipitated) but that doesn't mean conversely that remain voters were any more well informed either. People who did understand enough about both the EU/EEA and it's effects on the UK's and European economies/sovereignty and legislative ability etc. voted out knowing full well it wouldn't be an easy gig, as again it was unprecedented.

 

There are many senior economists that are of different schools of thought on Brexit. For me, P.Minford makes the best and most objective case. He's a smart fella. Much of the punditry seems to be more pro-establishment horse**** IMHO, and I would discount many bodies such as the IMF and ECB or even the BoE as I would regard them as parties with 'vested interest' in remaining. Plus, we all know that forecasts made by supposed 'experts' or 'specialised agencies' have a pretty dire track record in recent years, in terms of veracity of predictions - they are simply that, predictions. Successful and united UK post Brexit will rely on many factors, not all economic either.

 

So regarding the promised 'Milk and Honey', same respone, it is waaaaaaay too soon to know, I mean - c'mon, we've not even Brexited yet!

So, besides self fulfilling prophecies that may come about from certain swathes of the population refusing to grow up and adapt, we must suspend judgement on the future of the UK, it will be what we are able to make of it in no small way.

 

Nay-saying won't help, it'll only hinder, and to make grandiose declarations (not accusing you here particularly BTW) about outcomes of Brexit that have yet to happen is just stupid and is evidence of certain people's hope to see Brexit Britain fail, if you ask me.  

 

BUT, I don't want to see Brexit happen at any cost either, specifically the break up of OUR venerable union. That would be a very sad thing to witness. Again, I don't think it will happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good points. Obviously, in suggesting we stall Brexit, I don't think there is a chance of it actually coming about, unfortunately for me.  I do believe it would be the right thing to do.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

16 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Good points. Obviously, in suggesting we stall Brexit, I don't think there is a chance of it actually coming about, unfortunately for me.  I do believe it would be the right thing to do.

No, I think it's highly unlikely now, the government would be committing political and career suicide collectively and individually. I'm glad that this is the case, as I said, IMO it's a precedent that should never be set.

 

But, It's not that I disagree with you that we should have more clarity about what Brexit means in terms of our exit strategy and in terms of what it might involve at a later date, however, I think this should have been on offer pre-Brexit, when it made a lot more sense! Electing a political party, whose sole purpose was to leave the EU, with such a mandate would have been the correct way of going about Brexit, perhaps rather than via a referendum whereby the dissemination of, ahem - 'facts', happened largely during fetid campaign trails. 

 

That is not what happened and it doesn't undermine the legitimacy of the result of a people's referendum either. If a government starts reneging on promises and rescinding results of democratic votes or asking people to 'vote again' it just sets a terrible precedent and effectively annuls any future vote's significance too.

 

Enough crying and foot-stamping, let's just get the hell on with it. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[vinny41]

 

Stop possible second referendum on E.U. membership

There is a growing band of people that want to reverse the result of the democratic vote of this country to leave the European Union and are calling for a second referendum. This is mainly by the people that lost the vote two years ago and cannot accept the democratic vote of the majority decision.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/226071