Brexit could sway Scottish voters towards independence from UK - poll

[chrissables]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

They can be Denmark with kilts and whisky. Why not? Do you not think Denmark is independent?

Is this the Denmark you moved to to improve your life, or at least were planning to do so? 55555

 

The Denmark that was forced to vote again on the Maastricht Treaty by the EU? Do you think that is independency?

Last i heard they had illegally set up land borders to control illegal immigrants. If they were independent, they could do so without the threat of the EU punishing them.

[chrissables]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I think you do misunderstand independence. What do you want N Korea? No, it's the amount of sovereignty you are prepared to share with other like minded states.

I seem to understand it more than you. To simplify, self governing.

[melvinmelvin]

55 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

overseas assets

 

how about overseas territories?

Falklands, Diego Garcia, Gibraltar, Ascension, ....... there are several more

 

some of these enjoy special privileges re single market, Falkland and some of the stone heaps in the Channel

 

UK maybe leaves EU, Scotland maybe leaves UK and enters EU

 

what then with territories?

 

 

here is the list of current UK stone heaps around the world, the last bits of the empire;

 

Britain's Overseas Territories

• Anguilla
• Bermuda
• British Antarctic Territory
• British Indian Ocean Territory
• British Virgin Islands
• Cayman Islands
• Falkland Islands
• Gibraltar
• Montserrat
• Pitcairn Islands
• St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
• South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands
• Turks and Caicos Islands

---

of these, the Cliff is a tricky one re Brexit, Spain is already making considerable  noise in EU

 

(I assume that Indian Ocean is limited to Diego Garcia and near by heaps)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

•  

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

59 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

overseas assets

 

how about overseas territories?

Falklands, Diego Garcia, Gibraltar, Ascension, ....... there are several more

 

some of these enjoy special privileges re single market, Falkland and some of the stone heaps in the Channel

 

UK maybe leaves EU, Scotland maybe leaves UK and enters EU

 

what then with territories?

 

I am not sure if I am following your thought process here - are you suggesting that these are UK assets ripe for disbursement?

 

I don't know how a Scottish government would view them, but my thinking is that it would be a bit rich of Scotland to demand its own independence and also demand a slice of these colonies.

 

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am not sure if I am following your thought process here - are you suggesting that these are UK assets ripe for disbursement?

 

I don't know how a Scottish government would view them, but my thinking is that it would be a bit rich of Scotland to demand its own independence and also demand a slice of these colonies.

 

 

these are UK assets, the UK breaking up, where do the assets go?

 

a bit rich? yes can agree with that

 

but look at Falklands,

enjoys backdoor access to sm

UK out of EU

Scotland  out of UK and into EU

 

Falklands and Scotland have heaps of sheep in common

 

without this backdoor access to sm Falkland would struggle big time, mega big time

 

I would say that these territories represent a not small problem re Brexit

 

The future well being of these territories is a shared responsibility for what is UK today

 

 

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

here is the list of current UK stone heaps around the world, the last bits of the empire;

 

Britain's Overseas Territories

• Anguilla
• Bermuda
• British Antarctic Territory
• British Indian Ocean Territory
• British Virgin Islands
• Cayman Islands
• Falkland Islands
• Gibraltar
• Montserrat
• Pitcairn Islands
• St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
• South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands
• Turks and Caicos Islands

---

of these, the Cliff is a tricky one re Brexit, Spain is already making considerable  noise in EU

 

(I assume that Indian Ocean is limited to Diego Garcia and near by heaps)

 

Now you have gotten me thinking...

 

I presume that some of these territories are self sustaining - but what of those that require financial and logistical support from the UK? Maybe a St Kilda style evacuation for those who cannot sustain themselves?

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Now you have gotten me thinking...

 

I presume that some of these territories are self sustaining - but what of those that require financial and logistical support from the UK? Maybe a St Kilda style evacuation for those who cannot sustain themselves?

 

 

 

right,

and what about those who bank on backdoor access to the SingleMarket?

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, chrissables said:

Is this the Denmark you moved to to improve your life, or at least were planning to do so? 55555

 

The Denmark that was forced to vote again on the Maastricht Treaty by the EU? Do you think that is independency?

Last i heard they had illegally set up land borders to control illegal immigrants. If they were independent, they could do so without the threat of the EU punishing them.

Largely but not entirely correct

 

I spent several year in Denmark and I was back there recently

 

While there I went to the local Kommune and arranged for a Danish passport. I really like the place and I will retire there if anywhere. I have a small pension there also.

 

The Danes have an effective way of dealing with unwanted arrivals: you must demonstrate converersation Danish if you wish to remain after 3 months!

 

The Danes arranged several opt outs: they use the Krone.

 

I will read up on who forced whom to do what and when

 

Ta' ska' du ha'

Edited September 4, 2018 by Grouse

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Largely but not entirely correct

 

I spent several year in Denmark and I was back there recently

 

While there I went to the local Kommune and arranged for a Danish passport. I really like the place and I will retire there if anywhere. I also have a small pension there.

 

The Danes have an effective way of dealing with unwanted arrivals: you must demonstrate converersational Danish if you wish to remain after 3 months!

 

The Danes arranged several opt outs: they use the Krone.

 

I will read up on who forced whom to do what and when

 

Ta' ska' du ha'

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Maastricht_Treaty_referendum,_1993

 

Yes, I remember now. First time they voted no by a whisker

 

They voted massively yes in 1993 after winning a number of opt outs

 

How very democratic!

 

Whats wrong with that?

 

Do you understand hyggelig?

Edited September 4, 2018 by Grouse

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

right,

and what about those who bank on backdoor access to the SingleMarket?

 

 

As in the EU or the UK single markets? Access to the former is most likely to be lost anyway; if Indy happens then their UK single market will reduce by around 9%.  

 

[melvinmelvin]

50 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Maastricht_Treaty_referendum,_1993

 

Yes, I remember now. First time they voted no by a whisker

 

They voted massively yes in 1993 after winning a number of opt outs

 

How very democratic!

 

Whats wrong with that?

 

Do you understand hyggelig?

 

that very last word Grouse is the essence of Danish laidback ness

Danes knows everything re this, way more than other Scandinavian countries

 

[melvinmelvin]

55 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

As in the EU or the UK single markets? Access to the former is most likely to be lost anyway; if Indy happens then their UK single market will reduce by around 9%.  

 

 

I did mean EU single market.

 

yes - continuing life as an English colony - access = lost

continuing life as a heap of Scottish stones in the south Atlantic, access could still be enjoyed

after S leaves UK and enters EU

 

never mind, I clearly understand that the future well being of the territories is not high on the agenda in these brexit scexit times

 

but,

there is material for thought here

 

 

 

[Sir Dude]

More project fear.

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I did mean EU single market.

 

yes - continuing life as an English colony - access = lost

continuing life as a heap of Scottish stones in the south Atlantic, access could still be enjoyed

after S leaves UK and enters EU

 

never mind, I clearly understand that the future well being of the territories is not high on the agenda in these brexit scexit times

 

but,

there is material for thought here

 

 

 

Ah, I am with you now. 

 

A few months back there was a brief mention of a Celtic Union on Twitter - a loose alliance of Scotland, a united Ireland, Wales and the Independent Republic of Cornwall. Maybe we could open it to all former crown territories...

[melvinmelvin]

16 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Ah, I am with you now. 

 

A few months back there was a brief mention of a Celtic Union on Twitter - a loose alliance of Scotland, a united Ireland, Wales and the Independent Republic of Cornwall. Maybe we could open it to all former crown territories...

 

whatever RR

(do you live in Ruam Rudii?-excellent soi)

 

but dont forget them, there are soles out there banking on access to SM through UK

and also soles banking on support from the motherland

 

there are also soles that would do fine whatever, Cayman?

 

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

whatever RR

(do you live in Ruam Rudii?-excellent soi)

 

but dont forget them, there are soles out there banking on access to SM through UK

and also soles banking on support from the motherland

 

there are also soles that would do fine whatever, Cayman?

 

I used to live in All Seasons Mansion, next to the Conrad Hotel - I agree, a very nice part of town.

 

I understand what you are getting at - what the answer is, however, I don't know. If we look to the Chagos islanders, for example, it is clear that the UK doesn't place the interests of their colonies particularly highly, so I can understand if they feel anxious about the future. 

 

I maybe sounded a bit flippant in my previous retort but possibly there is scope for an alliance of former UK outposts, a sort of commonwealth, but without the Westminster death grip.

 

It has been suggested by some that Scotland would, if it reapplied to join the EU, be fast tracked back in. Maybe the EU could promise a similar arrangement for colonies of the UK, should they choose to extricate themselves - not necessarily full membership, but access to the types of support services that were previously supplied by the UK?

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

I used to live in All Seasons Mansion, next to the Conrad Hotel - I agree, a very nice part of town.

 

I understand what you are getting at - what the answer is, however, I don't know. If we look to the Chagos islanders, for example, it is clear that the UK doesn't place the interests of their colonies particularly highly, so I can understand if they feel anxious about the future. 

 

I maybe sounded a bit flippant in my previous retort but possibly there is scope for an alliance of former UK outposts, a sort of commonwealth, but without the Westminster death grip.

 

It has been suggested by some that Scotland would, if it reapplied to join the EU, be fast tracked back in. Maybe the EU could promise a similar arrangement for colonies of the UK, should they choose to extricate themselves - not necessarily full membership, but access to the types of support services that were previously supplied by the UK?

 

good,

 

guess my main point was that these territories and people should not be forgotten

they are somehow part of the UK clout on the global stage and should be treated properly

 

if Scotland pops out of UK I would be fairly confident of a quick fix for joining EU

 

solution ? dunno; but there are many territories with special links to EU one way or the other (including no links)

 

greenland - denmark

faero islands - denmark

aaland in the mid baltic - finland

some of the islands in the channel

holy sea - san marino - andorra - monaco

canary islands - spain

the 2 spanish enclaves under Riff in north Africa

the cliff

uk overseas territories

french overseas territories

netherlands and the mexican gulf

denmark ? have anything left in the gulf?

and aren't there a couple of german islands off the north west coast of germany

        enjoying special tax privileges?

 

 

and I am sure I have forgotten some

 

lots of special deals floating around

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Maastricht_Treaty_referendum,_1993

 

Yes, I remember now. First time they voted no by a whisker

 

They voted massively yes in 1993 after winning a number of opt outs

 

How very democratic!

 

Whats wrong with that?

 

Do you understand hyggelig?

 

now, as to hyggelig

 

here is some news not hyggelig for you, on several occasions you have expressed worries re Sweden an SD

 

latest polls,   SD about 20 %

social democrats about 23  %

 

seems like fascists will be flowing into the national assembly

 

 

 

[bristolboy]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

now, as to hyggelig

 

here is some news not hyggelig for you, on several occasions you have expressed worries re Sweden an SD

 

latest polls,   SD about 20 %

social democrats about 23  %

 

seems like fascists will be flowing into the national assembly

 

 

 

There will be moree Moderate Democrats are in the National Assembly. There doesn't seem to be much of chance of forming part of a government though.  Here is the latest polling results, I think:

Social Democrats (S) 24.7%
Sweden Democrats (SD) 19.5%
Moderate Party (M) 18%
Left Party (V) 9.5%
Centre Party (C) 8.9%
Liberal Party (L) 5.7%
Green Party (MP) 5.7%
Christian Democrats (KD) 5%

https://betting.betfair.com/politics/general-politics-betting/2018-swedish-election-betting-analysis-and-tips-030918-171.html

[melvinmelvin]

different source different numbers

msm? funny stuff

 

[melvinmelvin]

fascists sailing up as no 2, nee good

 

anyway, your list is polls on the street I guess

 

when you map this into or onto the constituencies, how would it look re seats in the national assembly?

 

 

 

[bristolboy]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

different source different numbers

msm? funny stuff

 

Very close actually. 

[melvinmelvin]

28 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

There will be moree Moderate Democrats are in the National Assembly. There doesn't seem to be much of chance of forming part of a government though.  Here is the latest polling results, I think:

Social Democrats (S) 24.7%
Sweden Democrats (SD) 19.5%
Moderate Party (M) 18%
Left Party (V) 9.5%
Centre Party (C) 8.9%
Liberal Party (L) 5.7%
Green Party (MP) 5.7%
Christian Democrats (KD) 5%

https://betting.betfair.com/politics/general-politics-betting/2018-swedish-election-betting-analysis-and-tips-030918-171.html

ha,

could be a moderate social coalition - un precedented, but the guys are not that far apart in reality

but kinda far fetched me thinks

 

the social are very experienced politicians, they could probably run a cabinet in that environment

 

 

anyway - difficult picture

 

 

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

ha,

could be a moderate social coalition - un precedented, but the guys are not that far apart in reality

but kinda far fetched me thinks

 

the social are very experienced politicians, they could probably run a cabinet in that environment

 

 

anyway - difficult picture

 

 

And of course, as is sometimes the case, some potential voters for the Swedish Democrats could be lying about their vote for fear of disapproval.

On the other hand, it could be like the Dutch elections where the anti-immigrant party failed to live up to its billings.

A volatile situation.

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

now, as to hyggelig

 

here is some news not hyggelig for you, on several occasions you have expressed worries re Sweden an SD

 

latest polls,   SD about 20 %

social democrats about 23  %

 

seems like fascists will be flowing into the national assembly

 

 

 

Tak f'det!

 

Actually, I thing Sweden has little choice but to bring in the right wing to clean up the mess caused by excessive Muslim immigration. It really is an awful blot on their fine cities.

 

You are clearly aware of their historical Nazi roots. I trust that most of that has been consigned to history

 

Ten years from now, I hope Sweden has recovered from the trauma and is back to its calm (and beautiful) social democrat facade.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Grouse

[Grouse]

Were going to get told off for being off topic!

 

New thread please sir!

[RuamRudy]

Yesterday the Scottish Government set out their program for the next session, including an Electoral Franchise Bill, intended to ensure that EU citizens retain the right to vote in future Scottish Parliament and local elections. Good work from the SNP there, furthering the notion of an inclusive Scotland. 

[RuamRudy]

A rather damning commentary in the Times yesterday:

Davidson is not cut out to lead the country

"The Scottish Tories are still behaving like a third party, not serious contenders for government"

 

How much of this is driven by the ongoing proxy war in CCHQ I have no idea - but Ruth the Mooth's star seems well and truly on the wane across the UK, not only in Scotland. 

[timbothaivisa]

On 9/3/2018 at 4:17 PM, RuamRudy said:

In 2014 the UK in the EU was little more than a internal schism in the tory party; nobody had promised a referendum on membership and certainly, nobody anticipated Brexit, so your explanation is not only far from the obvious one, it is wrong.

what's a Scottish border got to do with Brexit? ?

[timbothaivisa]

On 9/4/2018 at 2:17 PM, Grouse said:

Just like Ireland you mean?

correct