Mulches

[Pond Life]

While looking for info on green manure, I found an interesting article on growing a legume as a cover crop & then converting it in-situ to mulch, instead of ploughing it in.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/np/tomatoes.html

While im not specificly into growing tomatoes I found the whole idea interesting.

What cover crop would work well in Mae Hongson area, presumeing most of the plants listed on the site are unavailable, how about soybean ?

your views & ideas would be apreciated.

[Jamie]

While looking for info on green manure, I found an interesting article on growing a legume as a cover crop & then converting it in-situ to mulch, instead of ploughing it in.

Actually, the idea of a green manure is to let it grow and then plow it under before the growing season. The green material adds nitrogen to the soil prior to planting the main crop.

Here is some info on green manure:

http://oisat.org/control_methods/cultural_...n_manuring.html

[Pond Life]

Thanks Jamie

I understand the concept of green manureing. This idea seems to have most of the advantages of green manure + the advantages of mulch with a big reduction in labour/machine costs.

Did you read the link ?

[chownah]

Soybean could work but the seed is expensive and it is prone to diseases..if you can grow soybeans its probably better to harvest the seed...but its up to you.

I grow sunn hemp to plow in and to use as mulch. I'm also trying some of the more native legume plants. Right now I'm growing a legume called tua peh. It's a viney sort of bean plant whose pods are sold when the beans are still green...you steam them and eat the beans, not the pods....anyway I'm growing some which I will observe and save seed from.

I guess you could read about all of the legumes mentioned here and check them out....I think there is one call puero (tropical kudzu?) which might have seeds available commercially....basically just start learning about legumes and trying some out yourself. Sometimes I feel like I might be the only person in Thailand putting much effort into developing this type of farming...at least I've never seen Thais do green manure cropping although I did get my original sunn hemp seeds from a gov't supported farming program...so go figure.

About sunn hemp (in case you find a source for the seed): It grows fast and doesn't require alot of water. It fixes alot of nitrogen. It can smother weeds if planted thickly. It does not harbor nematodes and seems to suppress them. It is not bothered by many insects to the point of crop failure (although I've had some problems when emerging plants are attacked by those tiny hopping bugs). It grows fast and reaches optimium nitrogen content at about 45 to 60 days from planting. It germinates vigorously. When it reaches optimum nitrogen it is still soft stemmed so it is easy to plow in or cut. It produces alot of organic matter. Cattle seem to not prefer it and if there is something else for them to eat then they are likly to not bother it too much.

Another option is to observe the legumes that grow naturally in the area propogate them yourself.

Chownah

[Pond Life]

That Sunn Hemp looks the ticket, seems to grow as thick as the hairy vetch. Will sniff around for seeds.

Im a bit dubious about the Kudzu vine, I followed the thread about it a while back & I seem to remember its a bit difficult to get established but once established very difficult to control.

Do you have a pic of Tua Peh ? I recently saw some big beans growing on the edge of a field, they looked intentionaly grown, resembled Broad Beans (UK). Big fat pods, thick skin with big green bean inside. more of a bush than vine.

[chownah]

Tua Peh is a northern Thai word and my wife doesn't know what the central Thai word is. I have no picture. It looks like tua fak yao in fact I got my first seeds from a plant that just appeared in my garden as a weed and I thought it was tua fak yao and was growing really well so I just let it grow thinking I'd be able to harvest from it. The flowers are yellow...the pods are like western green beans (not long like fak yao). When it had set beans I asked my uncle to indentify it. The seeds are smaller than the broad beans you mention and I'm pretty sure you won't find a commercial seed source for this one....also I mentioned it mostly to illustrate how you can "find" legumes just growing around and cultivate them a bit to see what they do and if they could fit into some farming scheme like green manure, mulch, composting, worm growing, etc. Look around and see if you can spot some legumes growing naturally around the irrigation canals, streams, roads, or any odd spot that doesn't get cultivated regularly....collect some seeds and grow a few...also any commercial seeds for legumes you can find then I suggest that you buy a small quantity and grow a few to see how they grow...it won't be very expensive and even a failed trial of legume will benefit the soil and will do no harm. The article you gave a link for talks about some researchers trying something knew...this is not an established and well understood techinique so you probably won't find anyone who can give you a direct answer about what will work and how well it will work...you will probably have to try it yourself and see.

Chownah

[lannarebirth]

Hey chownah, or anyone else. I've got about 4 rai I need to raise about 60 cm. I don't care how long it takes to do it, but I don't want to spend any money. If I grew that fast frowing hemp (or something similar) on it, and cut it down every time it got about 2m high, would the decomposed matter eventually fill in my low area? Or is there a conservation of matter issue here? Also,, if it did fill it in, would that be too high a N material next to a river? TIA.

[chownah]

Its probably best to not refer to sunn hemp as hemp because sunn hemp is not related to real hemp. Sunn hemp got the "hemp" part of its name because it can be grown as a fibre crop just as hemp can.

Lannarebirth,

You'd get faster results by growing trees and mulching them....but don't hold your breath.

Chownah

[Pond Life]

Wow Lanna, thats a tall order, works out at about 3800 m3 of fill.

Even if you managed it, I'm guessing it would have the consistancy of an irish peat bog.

Hows this for an alternative, Im presumeing youre trying to convert rice paddy.

Dig a 1 rai pond, use the excavated soil to build up the rest of the land, add some deep drainage ditches for extra fill & of course drainage.

Then use the green manure to improve the soil youve excavated.

It will of course cost you the hire of the back hoe but saves you buying 3800 m3 of fill.

[ozzydom]

Hey chownah, or anyone else. I've got about 4 rai I need to raise about 60 cm. I don't care how long it takes to do it, but I don't want to spend any money. If I grew that fast frowing hemp (or something similar) on it, and cut it down every time it got about 2m high, would the decomposed matter eventually fill in my low area? Or is there a conservation of matter issue here? Also,, if it did fill it in, would that be too high a N material next to a river? TIA.

Mission Impossible unless you you got nothing better to do fo the next two centuries I reckon, You could always dig a one rai x1.5 metre fish pond and spread the removed soil on the other 3 rai, that would do the job,the spend no money bit means you would have to dig by hand but it would still be quicker than the mulching idea.

Funny enough your problem was why I built a fish farm, over the years the neighbouring properties had sold off their topsoil in times of need which meant when our property had run off during the wet our topsoil went onto the lower paddies . We are also beside a river.

[chownah]

.....or.....you could dig a 1 metre square well about 4 kilometres deep and use the dirt from that.

Chownah

[ozzydom]

Wow Lanna, thats a tall order, works out at about 3800 m3 of fill.

Even if you managed it, I'm guessing it would have the consistancy of an irish peat bog.

Hows this for an alternative, Im presumeing youre trying to convert rice paddy.

Dig a 1 rai pond, use the excavated soil to build up the rest of the land, add some deep drainage ditches for extra fill & of course drainage.

Then use the green manure to improve the soil youve excavated.

It will of course cost you the hire of the back hoe but saves you buying 3800 m3 of fill.

Wasnt trying to "steal your thunder Pondlife' . My digit was still working at the post when you posted your words of wisdom,great minds do you know what.

[lannarebirth]

Thanks everyone. I think I'm probably going to do a combination of things. leave a little bit in paddy, make a pond and bring in a little fill. then I'll grow some of that nice nitrogen fixing crop on there for a year or so. Thanks guys!

[chownah]

Lannarebirth,

There are two approaches for developing the fertility of a piece of land(or more).

One is green manuring. Traditionally this is done by growing a nitrogen fixing plant (legume) and plowing it in followed by a "catch crop". Here is how it works. The legume will fix alot of nitrogen and the huge majority of it will be incorporated into the body of the legume plant...so....you have to kill the legume at the right time so that it will decompose in a timely manner so that the nitrogen in the plants body is put into the soil....immediately (well, waiting an appropriate amount of time which depends on many factors) following the plowing in of the nitrogen fixing legume you plant the catch crop....this way the catch crop takes up the nitrogen as it is released to the soil by the decay of the legume crop....in this way the nitrogen now is part of the catch crop (often a grass)....the reason you want it inside the catch crop is so that it won't leach away. The reason you don't just continue with legume after legume after legume is that this encourages disease and insect pests...also most catch crops will stand in the field longer while legumes will go to seed which is not what you want unless you are raising seed in which case you are not green manuring.

The other approach is cover cropping. In this system you just plant something that will grow and not need to be cut or maintained in any way...maybe watered...maybe fertilized...but not cut and replanted....you just let it grow mostly. For this you can plant a mix of a legume and a grass...but not necessarily the same legume and grass that you would use in green manuring....you need to be sure that they are compatible...this link:

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Gbase/Default.htm

is a great resource for green manuring or cover cropping...when looking up a plant it will tell you which plants it is compatible with for mixed pasture cover cropping. Do be aware that a pasture mix probably either needs animals grazing it or it will need to be cut for it to stay balanced....If you don't want to do either then some of the mixes mentioned might not be optimal but I do not know of any resource that talks about grassland mixes where it is just left for long periods of time...as in multiple years.....anyway I'm no expert on this so when I'm considering these things I use this link as a major source of information.

Chownah

P.S. Increasing the nitrogen level is only one benefit of green manuring and cover cropping....water holding, permeability, and reduced erosion and leaching are well known benefits too...but....there is one benefit which is often not appreciated and that is the ability of decaying organic material to chemically convert plant unavailable minerals into plant available minerals. The mildly acid products of decomposition can actually take phosphorous and potassium that is chemically bound into rocky minerals and dissolve it so it becomes available to plants....neat trick!!!

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

Somewhere on the farming forum are some notes on growing alge as a green manure.

The productions levels versus area required (in this case a shallow volume of water) are, to understate it - quite mindboggling. Both the quantity produced per unit of area required and the speed at which it is produced, far outstrips anything else, and I would strongly reccomend you study that thread in detail as an option.

Maizefarmer

[Jamie]

Maizefarmer,

Was that in regards to using algae to produce bio-diesel? The pressed algae makes a great mulch/fertilizer.

On that note, I'm hoping to start a pre-feasibility on bio-diesel from algae using fish ponds and sewerage lagoons.

[lannarebirth]

Lannarebirth,

There are two approaches for developing the fertility of a piece of land(or more).

One is green manuring. Traditionally this is done by growing a nitrogen fixing plant (legume) and plowing it in followed by a "catch crop". Here is how it works. The legume will fix alot of nitrogen and the huge majority of it will be incorporated into the body of the legume plant...so....you have to kill the legume at the right time so that it will decompose in a timely manner so that the nitrogen in the plants body is put into the soil....immediately (well, waiting an appropriate amount of time which depends on many factors) following the plowing in of the nitrogen fixing legume you plant the catch crop....this way the catch crop takes up the nitrogen as it is released to the soil by the decay of the legume crop....in this way the nitrogen now is part of the catch crop (often a grass)....the reason you want it inside the catch crop is so that it won't leach away. The reason you don't just continue with legume after legume after legume is that this encourages disease and insect pests...also most catch crops will stand in the field longer while legumes will go to seed which is not what you want unless you are raising seed in which case you are not green manuring.

The other approach is cover cropping. In this system you just plant something that will grow and not need to be cut or maintained in any way...maybe watered...maybe fertilized...but not cut and replanted....you just let it grow mostly. For this you can plant a mix of a legume and a grass...but not necessarily the same legume and grass that you would use in green manuring....you need to be sure that they are compatible...this link:

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Gbase/Default.htm

is a great resource for green manuring or cover cropping...when looking up a plant it will tell you which plants it is compatible with for mixed pasture cover cropping. Do be aware that a pasture mix probably either needs animals grazing it or it will need to be cut for it to stay balanced....If you don't want to do either then some of the mixes mentioned might not be optimal but I do not know of any resource that talks about grassland mixes where it is just left for long periods of time...as in multiple years.....anyway I'm no expert on this so when I'm considering these things I use this link as a major source of information.

Chownah

P.S. Increasing the nitrogen level is only one benefit of green manuring and cover cropping....water holding, permeability, and reduced erosion and leaching are well known benefits too...but....there is one benefit which is often not appreciated and that is the ability of decaying organic material to chemically convert plant unavailable minerals into plant available minerals. The mildly acid products of decomposition can actually take phosphorous and potassium that is chemically bound into rocky minerals and dissolve it so it becomes available to plants....neat trick!!!

Chownah

Thanks chownah. I did something like that a couple of years ago on another piece of land. Planted 28 rai in mung beans, the till it in and planted Guinea grass. I don't like this Guinea grass though, so I'm going to try to find something more uniformly thicker this year.

[lingling]

Somewhere on the farming forum are some notes on growing alge as a green manure.

...maybe water lettuce or water hyacinth? Will decrease a bit in volume when decomposing though.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=91614

[Maizefarmer]

Actually - you've got a point there - to be honest I can't recall which it was - it may have something to do with bio-diesel, but something also seems to jog my memory into thinking that this was a fertiliser option, and the more I think it over, the more I think of it as a fertilser option. Almosy certain it's in respect of fertiliser - I'll difg sround a bit and find it again and wil then let you know where exactly it is - but whichever it is, it offered by far the biggest yield of all the options discussed on the forum.

Maizefarmer,

Was that in regards to using algae to produce bio-diesel? The pressed algae makes a great mulch/fertilizer.

On that note, I'm hoping to start a pre-feasibility on bio-diesel from algae using fish ponds and sewerage lagoons.

[JungleBiker]

Somewhere on the farming forum are some notes on growing alge as a green manure.

...maybe water lettuce or water hyacinth? Will decrease a bit in volume when decomposing though.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=91614

Yes lingling, it's the water lettuce thread (first page, post#4, Nov 7) where Tim got excited about growing duckweed for forage.

JB

[Maizefarmer]

Forage - thats what it was all about.

I still can't get over the fatc that a) I knew nothing about this stuff as a forage option (after 20 years in the business I still have things to learn), and that it has the potential to offer so much nutrition.

Maizefarmer

Somewhere on the farming forum are some notes on growing alge as a green manure.

...maybe water lettuce or water hyacinth? Will decrease a bit in volume when decomposing though.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=91614

Yes lingling, it's the water lettuce thread (first page, post#4, Nov 7) where Tim got excited about growing duckweed for forage.

JB

[jayjayjayjay]

Chowna has some very good ideas, 15 yrs ago I looked at the market place for legumes that could be intergrated into grass lays. There basically are no legumes that I have ever seen that could compete with the agressive growth patterns of tropical grasses. The only real solution is to try one of the suggested local legumes, but keep well away from importing anything. Most temperate climate legumes will not complete a successful growing season for many different reasons (day-length, insects, timing of rain, soil temperature etc). Try your best to establish a rotation system. Even use strip sewing, 1.5 metres width of grass for full length of your land then alternate with 2 metres of legume alongside. Continue this across the entire field.

One of the greatest things you could do for Thailand is to find a real good local legume growing by the roadside somewhere and making it commercially available.. This would be a holly-grail!

Also, try some Marigold, the deep orange is best. There are some native varieties in the North well established. The root system and dried branches should be turned into the soil and provide the strongest know nematicide that nature provides.

[Maizefarmer]

Jayjayjay

As you conceed yourself, all-be-it in different words - theory is one thing, practise is another.

While in theory a given legume may be the holy grail - it's just that, and you only have to look at how much legumne is grown in Thailand to understand that although it has a lot to offer, it is on balance when looked at in terms of input (time and cost versus benefit), not an ideal forage for Thailand.

Much the same nutritional output can be achieved for siginifcantly less time and cost.

... those of the economics of farming in Thailand (at least from a livestock feeding perspective), but come up with a legume that I can grow for less than what I grow maize and forage grasses, and by that it offers the same nutritional output for less cultivation cost - and you have my ear (both of them!)

Maizefarmer