Questions About Sotapanna

[garro]

Hi, this is an issue which is of great interest to me and I was wondering what members of this forum thought about it.

Is sotapanna (stream entry) a realistic goal for a lay person?

Does a 'person' always know if he/she has reached this stage (do some people who haven't think they have, and do people that have think they haven't)?

Is it possible to continue a household life (e.g. raise a family, have a sex life) once this stage is reached?

Is it possible to return to bad habits after reaching this stage?

[jumnien]

I remember in a retreat with Ajahn Jumnien of Wat Tham Seua that took place in California someone asked if any of the monks that had studied under him had yet attained any of the higher levels of enlightenment. He responded that none of the monks had because monks, if they were serious about meditation and studying the dharma, percolated up in the hierarchy of the monastery. Inevetably, when they reached a certain level, power and prestige and jealousy affected them and made them unable to progress further.

He noticed that he had seen higher levels of enlightenment amongst the nuns, of which there are many at his wat in Krabi, than he had seen in the monks. However, when he walked thru the local community, he saw women, mothers and grandmothers, who had reached very high levels of enlightenment. Their lives were characterized by a purity of love and kindness. They had no idea they had reached such levels nor would they know any of the terminology involved. Nevertheless, they lived and taught the dharma in a natural and powerful way.

Congratulations on your wedding!

Edited February 10, 2007 by mdeland

[garro]

Thanks mdeland, it was actually my wedding that got me thinking about this issue again.

It is reassuring to know that Ajahn Jumnein saw lay practitioners who achieved advanced stages.

I suppose a part of me expects that any significant level reached would be accompanied by trumpets and the earth shaking. It must be far more subtle than that.

[khaojao]

Hi, this is an issue which is of great interest to me and I was wondering what members of this forum thought about it.

Is sotapanna (stream entry) a realistic goal for a lay person?

Does a 'person' always know if he/she has reached this stage (do some people who haven't think they have, and do people that have think they haven't)?

Is it possible to continue a household life (e.g. raise a family, have a sex life) once this stage is reached?

Is it possible to return to bad habits after reaching this stage?

from my understanding...

1. most definitely! GO FOR IT MATE!!

2. yes, a stream enterer will know when he/she is one

3. yes, it is possible for a sotapanna to continue a life as a householder (eg. anandapindika & visaka)

4. depends on what u mean by bad habits.

what u are looking for is here : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/s....html#character

[jumnien]

Thanks mdeland, it was actually my wedding that got me thinking about this issue again.

It is reassuring to know that Ajahn Jumnein saw lay practitioners who achieved advanced stages.

I suppose a part of me expects that any significant level reached would be accompanied by trumpets and the earth shaking. It must be far more subtle than that.

A great American dharma teacher from the 1930s and 1940's, B. Wilson, often spoke regarding the liberation from desire, obsession and compulsion as being "rocketed into the fourth dimension" and his own experience as a "white light" moment much like the trumpets and earth shaking you speak of. Many people who walked the same spiritual path as Mr. Wilson however described their liberation from tanha as something that happened slowly over time, more of the "educational" variety. There is much in the book, "The Varieties of Spiritual Experience" by William James that is interesting that speaks of worldwide experience over the millenia on these matters.

Edited February 11, 2007 by mdeland

[garro]

Thanks mdeland, it was actually my wedding that got me thinking about this issue again.

It is reassuring to know that Ajahn Jumnein saw lay practitioners who achieved advanced stages.

I suppose a part of me expects that any significant level reached would be accompanied by trumpets and the earth shaking. It must be far more subtle than that.

A great American dharma teacher from the 1930s and 1940's, B. Wilson, often spoke regarding the liberation from desire, obsession and compulsion as being "rocketed into the fourth dimension" and his own experience as a "white light" moment much like the trumpets and earth shaking you speak of. Many people who walked the same spiritual path as Mr. Wilson however described their liberation from tanha as something that happened slowly over time, more of the "educational" variety. There is much in the book, "The Varieties of Spiritual Experience" by William James that is interesting that speaks of worldwide experience over the millenia on these matters.

Thank you mdeline. I am familiar with the writings of Bill W. and friends and agree that they provide very interesting accounts of their spiritual experiences.

[garro]

Thank you for the link KhaoJao