Prayer

[sabaijai]

Off topic: Hmm, something tells me it is time to change those trains soon... I do like them out of nostalgia, but 2 out of the last 3 times I have taken the train, something has gone awry. The first time a fire, the second time a fuel tank packing blew up...

I am glad to hear you were all ok though. Did you also fall out of bed? If so, hope you were lucky enough to have a lower bunk?

/Off topic

So we can establish many Thais are at least doing something that seems similar to prayer, even if it is not necessarily identical. This is not recommended practice according to the scriptures then, I take it?

I had a lower bunk but worried the straps holding the upper bunk in place would break and it would fall on top of me, so i was out quickly. After I was out the shaking grew increasingly violent and three people in my car - which happened to be the one that left the rails (starting with the wheel directly below my berth) fall from lower bunks. Putting my shoes on was a real struggle. There have been too many derailings recently so I agree, the system - the rails in areas hit by heavy flooding in particular (this incident happened near Ban Don in Utaradit Province) - need more maintenance/an overhaul. I took the night train back to CM, though, without incident.

[sabaijai]

Friday night I was on a train from Chiang Mai to Bangkok when it derailed around 1am near Sila-At. As the car I was sleeping in left the track and began shaking violently, throwing several people from their berths onto the railcar floor, several of the Thai passengers got on their knees, closed their eyes, wai-ed skyward and began 'chanting'. Probably the most compelling evidence I've yet seen supporting the argument that Thai Buddhists do 'pray' in the general Western sense of the word.

Fortunately none of the cars overturned and other than a few bruises, no one was hurt as far as I could tell. Almost immediately after the Thais made their efforts, the car stopped shaking .

Yes, but who or what were they praying to? Happy to hear no one was injured.

Good question, but I think heard one 'phra phuttha jao chuay' ...

[sabaijai]

As the car I was sleeping in left the track and began shaking violently, throwing several people from their berths onto the railcar floor, several of the Thai passengers got on their knees, closed their eyes, wai-ed skyward and began 'chanting'.

Hope everyone was ok, but thats a funny story.

Its amazing that they were so well composed during the violent shaking & what could of been their imminent death, rather than being out of control, holding of for dear life, screaming etc.

Most people were staring into space or at other passengers, trying to figure out what to do. The most intently praying figure was one of the train attendants, a Thai woman who after telling everyone to get out of their bunks and move to the front of the car, fell to her knees and chanted intently until the train came to a halt. Other Thais joined her but stopped as the shaking got worse. The cars were shaking so hard and loud that villagers in Ban Don told me they woke because of the noise, and because their houses were shaking too.

Off topic: After the train came to a halt and I could see they wouldn't be able to move the train for several hours (due to damage to my car and two adjoining cars), I didn't stay around for the buses the SRT promised were coming. Instead I walked to Ban Don and paid a man to drive me to the Utaradit, where I got a room and, the following morning, a bus on to BKK ...

[suegha]

Interesting many fundamentalist Christian websites seem to co-opt the word "prayers" for themselves and seem to devalue the buddhist activity as mere "chanting". Personally, chanting, praying, what's the difference? I am not a Christian but I don't seem to remember stories of Christ teaching people to pray, either. Human beings have engaged in the act of prayer long before Hindu, Buddhist, Christianity and Islam popped onto the scene. It's just one of the activities that humans do, like drinking water or making love. It feels good and it works!

Interesting many fundamentalist Christian websites seem to co-opt the word "prayers" for themselves and seem to devalue the buddhist activity as mere "chanting". Personally, chanting, praying, what's the difference? I am not a Christian but I don't seem to remember stories of Christ teaching people to pray, either. Human beings have engaged in the act of prayer long before Hindu, Buddhist, Christianity and Islam popped onto the scene. It's just one of the activities that humans do, like drinking water or making love. It feels good and it works!

There is a big difference between chanting and praying....I suggest some study if you want to learn the difference.

Seems like Jesus did teach how to pray....he taught the Lords Prayer, "Our Father, Who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name, Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.............". Remember that one?...I think Jesus taught this when asked about the proper way to pray.

Chownah

Quite correct about the importance of prayer in Christianity. Not only did Jesus give instruction on how to pray the bible says that we should make all our petitions know to God. However, we should never ask for personal possessions or wealth, and 'Thy will be done' must always take precedence. Another thing missed by many Christians is the importance of meditation, which is also recommended in the bible. Chanting, however, does not get a mention, unless you include the psalms and spiritual songs in the bible.

[luckyluke]

" It's not right for the good person who desires happiness to pray for it,instead the good person who desires happiness should walk the path of practice leading to happiness."

Anguttara Nikaya 5.43

[chownah]

" It's not right for the good person who desires happiness to pray for it,instead the good person who desires happiness should walk the path of practice leading to happiness."

Anguttara Nikaya 5.43

Luckyluke....you're my hero!!! I spent some time looking for this and had given up....thank you very much. Chownah

[jumnien]

" It's not right for the good person who desires happiness to pray for it,instead the good person who desires happiness should walk the path of practice leading to happiness."

Anguttara Nikaya 5.43

Luckyluke....you're my hero!!! I spent some time looking for this and had given up....thank you very much. Chownah

Great quote, wise teaching! Reminds me of the "faith without works is dead" quote.

[Grover]

" It's not right for the good person who desires happiness to pray for it,instead the good person who desires happiness should walk the path of practice leading to happiness."

Anguttara Nikaya 5.43

Thanks for that. Here is the full sutta from Access to Insight

---

Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him: "These five things, householder, are welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world. Which five?

"Long life is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Beauty is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Happiness is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Status is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Rebirth in heaven is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Now, I tell you, these five things are not to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes. If they were to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes, who here would lack them? It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires long life to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires long life should follow the path of practice leading to long life. In so doing, he will attain long life, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires beauty to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires beauty should follow the path of practice leading to beauty. In so doing, he will attain beauty, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires happiness to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires happiness should follow the path of practice leading to happiness. In so doing, he will attain happiness, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires status to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires status should follow the path of practice leading to status. In so doing, he will attain status, either human or divine.

"It's not fitting for the disciple of the noble ones who desires rebirth in heaven to pray for it or to delight in doing so. Instead, the disciple of the noble ones who desires rebirth in heaven should follow the path of practice leading to rebirth in heaven. In so doing, he will attain rebirth in heaven."

Long life, beauty, status, honor,

heaven, high birth:

To those who delight

in aspiring for these things

in great measure, continuously,

the wise praise heedfulness

in making merit.

The wise person, heedful,

acquires a two-fold welfare:

welfare in this life &

welfare in the next.

By breaking through to his welfare

he's called prudent,

wise.

[sabaijai]

Good questions...

Every step is a prayer.

The difference I see is that most Christians believe in the human will and the intellect and the power to individually and collectively push things through to completion. They have a very strong sense of right and wrong and entitlement.

But it seems like most Christians say it's God's will that matters, not the human will. And that no amount of good works, individually or collectively, will accomplish the summum bonum, ie, only God's grace can save one's soul and bring it to the kingdom of heaven.

[jumnien]

Good questions...

Every step is a prayer.

The difference I see is that most Christians believe in the human will and the intellect and the power to individually and collectively push things through to completion. They have a very strong sense of right and wrong and entitlement.

But it seems like most Christians say it's God's will that matters, not the human will. And that no amount of good works, individually or collectively, will accomplish the summum bonum, ie, only God's grace can save one's soul and bring it to the kingdom of heaven.

What Christians say and what they do are often diametrically opposed, so it is with those of us incarnate in human form. In my experience, Thais are far more accepting of some universal or spiritual will than Western Christians are. Christians may say there is a God, but more Thais act as if there is a higher power involved. Now some Westerners may make the argument that Thais are not proper buddhists, but I think this is less than skillful.

[lannarebirth]

An explanation, regarding prayer, is given on pgs. 276-278 of this book, "What Buddhists Believe":

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/whatbelieve.pdf