An Engineer's Explanation Of Suvernabhumi Problems

[gummy]

Hopefully as it is perceived the US Fire Marshall ( Dillon ? ) would condem the airport per-se, then the sooner the word gets around to all other US citizens the better. Given their abilty to turn any situation into a crisis and push the panic button, then perhaps they will all perceive it is far too dangerous to travel here hence relieving Thailand of another "shed" full of US experts. Mind you if it was rumoured that Bin Laden was an AOT Director, 50% of Americans would probably believe it. So brilliant are they at knowing the answers, how many kilometres of freeway were destroyed at the last major Earthquake in Los Angeles as they had not been designed to the then current ( at the time of construction) earthquake design data parameters? Should have asked their old friends Japan for advice perhaps?

You obviously have been involved in many construction projects in Thailand and thus you know contractors never cut corners.

I agree with you. Better to wait until AFTER an 875,000 kg fully loaded 747 splatters across the tarmac to push the panic button.

Than you have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so". Why fix something that hasn't killed people yet? Right? Am I Right? Pesky Americans anyhow. How dare they apply logic to something?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1795116.stm

They have asked the Japanese. Why reinvent the wheel? The fact is that even constructions companies in the US are not immune to cutting corners.

It is not a good idea in any country. The fact that corruption occurs everywhere doesn't excuse it and can't bring back the dead. Press panic button here.

Never happen old friend, impossible. Max take-off weight for a 747-400 is 872,000 lbs not kilos. A shade over 2.20 times out I'm afraid - ah those Americans keep getting confused between imperial and metric measures, be the death of them one day or either they are prone to exaggeration again and again and again and again.......

Edited February 14, 2007 by gummy

[ovenman]

Star Alliance simply doesnt want to pay the costs acquired for another move. This is all about dosh, plain and simple. They are gambling nothing bad will happen, however if smth does happen - there will be massive legal action.

Plus you have to factor in that the Star Alliance partners are probably relying on their good time buddies at THAI for direction regarding the airport controversy.

[pap]

I agree with you. Better to wait until AFTER an 875,000 kg fully loaded 747 splatters across the tarmac to push the panic button.

Than you have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so". Why fix something that hasn't killed people yet? Right? Am I Right? Pesky Americans anyhow. How dare they apply logic to something?

If any of the international airlines taking off and landing at Suwanaphum thought that there was any danger of this happening they would pull their aircraft from that route in a New York second. To my knowledge that has not happened yet, which tells me that much or most of the doom is primarily BS. As with many issues here, it is the politics. Much of the claims here, in the newspapers, and elsewhere are totally unsubtantiated. BTW, if you think there were no foreign engineers working on that project it would be unique among large projects in Thailand.

Not once do I say this was caused by Thais or Engineers. They had a part in it just as many other Asian countries, the EU and US. Multiple countries participated in this. Because the Thais do not want to crash any more than anyone else their engineers involved would have made sure they did the best they could with what they had. The contractors that worked on this were also not just Thai. Laborers were from Burma and Laos as well as 1st world countries. This is not just a Thai problem. But if you have had any dealings with contractors in Thailand at any level you also know that most will cut corners where they think they can, especially if you are not watching. That is where the problems stem from. That and building on a swamp. This can be done but only if you build the foundation on solid footing.

It is way to early to shutdown an airport of this magnitude because of this issue. I have no doubt that the Thais are looking at ways of resolving this. It is also too early to say it can be resolved economically. I am not concerned at this point about flying in and out of this airport. Not because I think the Thai government will protect me but because normally projects like this are over engineered. That translates to time. Time to work out the bigger issue of how to maintain a foundation. My point was sarcasm and not that we should run around screaming our hair was on fire. My lack of faith in the Thai government is also not because the people running it are Thai. It is more because they are bureaucrats. I have little faith in this class of people as a whole with a few exceptions.

[pap]

Hopefully as it is perceived the US Fire Marshall ( Dillon ? ) would condem the airport per-se, then the sooner the word gets around to all other US citizens the better. Given their abilty to turn any situation into a crisis and push the panic button, then perhaps they will all perceive it is far too dangerous to travel here hence relieving Thailand of another "shed" full of US experts. Mind you if it was rumoured that Bin Laden was an AOT Director, 50% of Americans would probably believe it. So brilliant are they at knowing the answers, how many kilometres of freeway were destroyed at the last major Earthquake in Los Angeles as they had not been designed to the then current ( at the time of construction) earthquake design data parameters? Should have asked their old friends Japan for advice perhaps?

You obviously have been involved in many construction projects in Thailand and thus you know contractors never cut corners.

I agree with you. Better to wait until AFTER an 875,000 kg fully loaded 747 splatters across the tarmac to push the panic button.

Than you have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so". Why fix something that hasn't killed people yet? Right? Am I Right? Pesky Americans anyhow. How dare they apply logic to something?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1795116.stm

They have asked the Japanese. Why reinvent the wheel? The fact is that even constructions companies in the US are not immune to cutting corners.

It is not a good idea in any country. The fact that corruption occurs everywhere doesn't excuse it and can't bring back the dead. Press panic button here.

Never happen old friend, impossible. Max take-off weight for a 747-400 is 872,000 lbs not kilos. A shade over 2.20 times out I'm afraid - ah those Americans keep getting confused between imperial and metric measures, be the death of them one day or either they are prone to exaggeration again and again and again and again.......

True on all counts. I cut and pasted it off the website with the specs on the aircraft without double checking. LOL. Not the first time. Probably won't be the last.

Its already cost us a couple of billion dollars in satellites that didn't quit work. I gotta agree its pretty dumb that we don't change our system to a system that the rest of the world uses. But it isn't the only dumb thing we do. C'est la vie. I stand humbled and corrected. Well corrected anyway.

[qualtrough]

1. Do any of you think that the member airlines of the Star Alliance would be taking this stance if they attached any credibility to the arguments that have been advanced on this thread and elsewhere that the new airport presents a safety hazard and should be shut down?

A rather flawed logic.

You seem to assume that airlines have a team of engineers on the field, in order to assess the assessments of the thai government.

Even within the thai gvt nobody agrees, and actually knows the reality of the situation.

Here are quotes from the The Tortrakul Yomnak fact-finding committee, presented monday...

"I also doubt if the PVD technique was done right. How do we know the contractors completed the drainage process. There is no data supporting the [contractors'] claim settlement in the treated soil layer was stopped [before paving commenced].

Then a quote from the boss of AOT, Saprang.

"Nobody can guarantee anything today," Saprang said. "This [Tortrakul] committee has had only two weeks. The [pavement] problem will certainly continue into the future and we need help from foreign experts. But the government will have to decide if this is the way it wants to proceed because hiring experts may involve a lot of money. "

So to sum' up :

-we don't know if the work was properly done (!)

-we should hire foreign experts, but it's... expensive

Furthermore you have to understand that the situation is evolving. That's the beauty of the "cracks" issue... A team of engineers could probably, at this very moment, assess and report the number of cracks (and size, location etc.). But that's not the point.

The point is : what will happen with the rainy season ? It will have an effect ? If yes, to what extend. etc. With XXXX more landing/take offs, damages will increase ? etc. The repairing operations will be enough to stabilize the situation ? etc.

Not flawed at all. It would be very surprising if the Star Alliance adopted that stance without conducting any due diligence investigating--not necessarily based on any government reports or findings.

As I have said, this is all about politics and very little about safety. I won't argue the point further--time will tell if I am right or not.

[Astropuppy]

You can bet that the Star Alliance has engineers and I am sure that they are used continuously. The loss of an aircraft in Paraguay is page-ten news and the loss of one at BKK would be front page (bad PR). When the money says that planes are not landing and taking-off safely in Bkk, then I will believe that these are problems greater than should be expected.

I also remember some of the PhDs that taught classes in college and a measurable level of doubt is earned and justified. When the certified Engineer/Architect with twenty years of large project development and supervision experience whispers "Panic Button": that is when I am landing at Don Muang or Chang Mai. Integrity should not be confused with scapegoat responsibilities. Engineers make the big bucks to make things like Suvarnabhumi Airport work and not to build and burn them.

The air traffic control network that went on-line with the new airport is handling the workload very well. Shortly after the airport opened it was already operating at full capacity: I have yet to hear of any incident with traffic control.

Beside the many stretched bladders, I have not heard of anybody hurt/killed at the airport since it opened. (Yes, I realize that every place has an accident waiting to happen, but my point should be clear.)

I have also heard that there is a steady correction of problems in the terminal that got so much attention at the opening. I will leave this opinion to somebody that flew then and now.

[cdnvic]

You can bet that the Star Alliance has engineers and I am sure that they are used continuously.

Bet all you want. Show us the proof.

[backflip]

Star Alliance might have engineers - IT, mostly. I bet they don't have a single civil engineer among their ranks - why would they?

[lomatopo]

Star Alliance might have engineers - IT, mostly. I bet they don't have a single civil engineer among their ranks - why would they?

Oh Jeez I don't know. Maybe because they can hire consultants? Or maybe the individual members of *A all have insurance carriers, who employ adjusters and actuaries, whose jobs are to assess risk and charge accordingly.

The U.S. carriers who fly their own metal to BKK, NW and UA, have the biggest liability issues. {UA is part of *A.} Once one of those two gets cold feet (cancels flight operations into/out of BKK) you'll know there's a huge-mongous problem.

[libya 115]

Foundations: a pictorial example...........

[britmaveric]

Oh boy when the rain comes watch out.

[brahmburgers]

I'd like to get a better idea of where the new airport is in relation to the Gulf of Thailand (and to the old airport). I've never seen a map showing that. How much drainage capacity can be built in to the new airport's runways? I'm a builder (not an engineer), yet am intruigued whether there might be a way to deepen drainage canals alongside runways - to take water away from problem areas. Where does the swamp drain to? ....the gulf of Siam or the Chao Praya river, or a canal? Is there any leeway in terms of elevation - or does it sit just a meter or two above flood level? What are the possiblity of digging drainage culverts alongside the problem areas - and covering them in order to avoid a problem if an aircraft had an accident and diverted off a runway.

From a different perspective, I'd like to see Don Muang revived and expanded. I personally don't thing tourist numbers will keep rising significantly for Thailand. Even if they do, let's put aside having to have Bangkok be the giant 'HUB' - and instead enable visitors to fly directly to their destinations - whether it be Phuket or Chiang Mai or wherever....

[IMA_FARANG]

We know the problem what is the solution, back to Don Muang is my idea

I have no idea if this even makes sense but:

1. U-Tapao was built for heavy military aircraft including B-52's

2. I know for a fact that during the 1st Iraqi war (Desert Storm) it handled USAF C-5's ferrying

matierial to the mid-east.

3. Would U-Tapao be an acceptable temporary airport? Is the road infrastructure viable or could it be improved to carry the traffic?

Just an idea.

Edited February 16, 2007 by IMA_FARANG

[zink]

We know the problem what is the solution, back to Don Muang is my idea

I have no idea if this even makes sense but:

1. U-Tapao was built for heavy military aircraft including B-52's

2. I know for a fact that during the 1st Iraqi war (Desert Storm) it handled USAF C-5's ferrying

matierial to the mid-east.

3. Would U-Tapao be an acceptable temporary airport? Is the road infrastructure viable or could it be improved to carry the traffic?

Just an idea.

Uhm, U-Tapao has been used for years (decades?) as a passenger airport...

[lomatopo]

We know the problem what is the solution, back to Don Muang is my idea

I have no idea if this even makes sense but:

1. U-Tapao was built for heavy military aircraft including B-52's

2. I know for a fact that during the 1st Iraqi war (Desert Storm) it handled USAF C-5's ferrying

matierial to the mid-east.

3. Would U-Tapao be an acceptable temporary airport? Is the road infrastructure viable or could it be improved to carry the traffic?

Just an idea.

UTP currently operates as both a commercial field, supporting domestic (PG to USM) and international flights (a handful, Russia, Korea, etc.) and a military field for the Royal Thai Navy Air Wing. It has a single 11,000 foot runway. It is 90 miles from Bangkok.

Recently aircraft bound for Suvarnabhumi have been diverted to UTP due to the brief closing of a runway at BKK. Also last year, before the move to Suvarnabhumi, there was a freak windstorm and Don Muang closed for a few hours. Dozens of planes were diverted to UTP including a number of 747'es. They waited, refueled as required and then left for Don Muang.

[zxray]

Utapao runway, was built by the USAF, in 1965, to handle B52 bombers. Wonder why it is not sinking?

Ray

[zink]

There is a lot of international charter traffic to Utapao during the high season. Thus there are definitely more than just a handful international flights.

[lomatopo]

There is a lot of international charter traffic to Utapao during the high season. Thus there are definitely more than just a handful international flights.

You can view the schedules for UTP here --> http://www.utapao.com/fightInter.html

Some days no international flights, other days one arrival and one departure, and on Sat. & Sun. at most four arrivals and four departures. So maybe two handfuls?

But I guess you're saying that during December there are a few more charters?

PG flies domestically between UTP and both USM and HKT.

[marshbags]

Taken from the B.Posts " postbag "

General news >> Saturday February 17, 2007

Quote

Once and for all

That the Airports of Thailand Plc plans to bring in foreign experts to carry out a thorough examination of the causes of the taxiway and runway cracks at Suvarnabhumi Airport deserves praise.

That the president of the Council of Engineers suggests he has doubts over the objectivity of foreign engineers because it was designed by them is a corruption of the facts. The original plans for the problem areas of the taxiways and runways were indeed from a foreign firm. These plans were dropped when objections were made to construction methods, and the final plans were approved locally by Thai engineers.

The same president also suggested that Thai engineers have dignity and getting foreign ones in raises doubts over the government's faith in Thai experts. I would have thought that something like, "I have faith in the professionalism of our local engineers and bringing in third-party experts will justify that", would have been a better statement.

Of course, if there are problems with the local plans, construction methods, supervision, corruption at all levels, etc, then the first statement makes more sense.

Bring in the outside evaluation group and clear this up once and for all.

CHRISTIAN LLOYD

Unquote.

I hope opinions of this nature are O.K. for general observation, but just in case of an edit, ( sorry Mods )

The url is :-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/17Feb2007_news19.php

I have read several comments relating to the onus being on the international engineers but none stated that their plans where rejected.

This letter puts it into a scenario which compliments the tea money culture and is more of a probability with this in mind. ( If it is correct ??? )

Thai Engineers = tea money big time, which = lowering of standards and materials in the name of graft

while raising bank accounts of ?????????????

T.I.T. and trully " not amazing, " culture wise.

marshbags

Edited February 17, 2007 by marshbags

[Astropuppy]

Pilots have a comment section on their post-flight log. It is the pilot's responsibility to note any problems that are noticed during the flight. The log is a legal document that can come back and bite the airlines if they do not follow-up on the comments.

When a pilot writes "excessively rough runway" there becomes a need for the airline to evaluate whether the runway is safe. A first-year lawyer could string an airline up for negligence if a professional evaluation is not made and something happens: that means a civil engineer. Protecting money is not rocket science. I would bet heavily that there are AIRLINE Civil Engineers taking a look at Suvarnabhumi Airport. The last I heard was Star Alliance felt like the cost of moving back to Don Muang was too much to stay off of Suvarnabhumi runways. Faith is still in the money.

[Gary A]

Utapao runway, was built by the USAF, in 1965, to handle B52 bombers. Wonder why it is not sinking?

Ray

Utapao wasn't built in the middle of a swamp.

[zxray]

Utapao runway, was built by the USAF, in 1965, to handle B52 bombers. Wonder why it is not sinking?

Ray

Utapao wasn't built in the middle of a swamp.

Gary, where from in Ohio? I am from Warren, Ohio, now living in Ayutthaya. I was on one of the flights from Singapore, that ended up sitting at Utapao. It looked like the original 1965 runway, and was handling jumbo jets ok. And to your statment..............Maybe the USAF knew better than build runways in the middle of a swamp!

Ray

[Gary A]

Utapao runway, was built by the USAF, in 1965, to handle B52 bombers. Wonder why it is not sinking?

Ray

Utapao wasn't built in the middle of a swamp.

Gary, where from in Ohio? I am from Warren, Ohio, now living in Ayutthaya. I was on one of the flights from Singapore, that ended up sitting at Utapao. It looked like the original 1965 runway, and was handling jumbo jets ok. And to your statment..............Maybe the USAF knew better than build runways in the middle of a swamp!

Ray

I'm originally from a very small village called Ottoville. It's located about 40 miles southeast of Fort Wayne, Indiana. Utapao had the longest runway in Asia at that time and it may still be the longest runway in Asia.

[thai_narak]

the longest runway in south east asia to date is myanmar's mandalay international airport which is 14,000 ft long.