I don't understand the logic of Thai Immigration

[Jingthing]

41 minutes ago, sfokevin said:

It would be nice to only need to show ones Thai bank statements with monthly foreign wire transfers in of more than 65k/month... This would save the bother & $50 that the US Consul charges for income letter! And no worry of their eyes glazing over while trying to read ones tax returns and supporting documents!...

I don't agree with that. Needing to import the full income would be onerous to many. For example I will have my pension deposited to a U.S. bank. It would be much more convenient and economical to only wire funds over here as needed. Like once or twice a year. Then for people that don't even spend the full amount of their claim, they would be in a position of growing massive Thai bank accounts and then may have problems exporting the money back out if they need or want to.

It would much better to only need to show proof from the payer and possibly statements from the foreign bank, for one example. That's not rocket science for immigration to understand. 

I do get it some people have very fancy and complicated income claims and that would be a problem for them. But a basic pension and basic flows into ANY bank account, come on, that's easy.

[scottiejohn]

42 minutes ago, sfokevin said:

It would be nice to only need to show ones Thai bank statements with monthly foreign wire transfers in of more than 65k/month... This would save the bother & $50 that the US Consul charges for income letter! And no worry of their eyes glazing over while trying to read ones tax returns and supporting documents!...

You can!

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

The Brit Embassy is NOT changing Thai Imm policy.  The option of seasoned and or a mix of such has always been there.

 

Extract from the British Embassy

"British Nationals should show evidence of minimum funds for their visa type by showing a Thai bank statement and/or bank book. This is not a new requirement and has always been an option for foreigners renewing retirement and marriage visas in Thailand". 

You're confused. That is the BANK ACCOUNT method.

The issue is with INCOME METHODS.

The Brits are suggesting that Thai immigration will accept INCOME based applications without an embassy letter. How can they say that when Thai immigration has NOT done so in the past and has not announced any policy change in that regard. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, scottiejohn said:

You can!

No you can't. 

Thai immigration requires EMBASSY LETTERS for income based applications. 

[Russell17au]

Thailand and scottiejohn.

Thailand Immigration has set down the requirements to obtain a visa and an extension and these requirements have been in force for some years now without any problems and because the British Embassy has decided to change what they are doing everyone wants Thai Immigration to change. NO. If you are a British subject then get onto your government and have things changed back. This is not a Thai Immigration problem it is a British Embassy problem and it is the British Embassy that must fix it. Australia use a Statutory Declaration that you fill in all the details and then you get the Australian Embassy to witness your signature and that is accepted by Thai Immigration and the onus is on you to tell the truth about your income. That is what is needed by the British Embassy

[Thaidream]

In the past when I was asked to prove my income- I simply pulled out my US Bank Debit Cards and my US Monthly Bank Statement- showing  direct deposit of income; and debits amounts. The statement even showed the exact location of each debit in Thailand.

Very easy to understand- they never asked for it again.  Yes- I did have the Embassy Letter but they asked for backup.  Approx 20 years ago..

[scottiejohn]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No you can't. 

Thai immigration requires EMBASSY LETTERS for income based applications. 

Read my Post 90. 

You do not need letters of income if your funds are either already in Thailand or coming into a Thailand bank account. If the funds are arising outside Thailand, but not deposited, here then "proof" of such funds is required. Is that too difficult to understand? 

If you are living in Thailand you must by necessity be spending money in Thailand and IMM want to see that.  

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Read my Post 90. 

You do not need letters of income if your funds are either already in Thailand or coming into a Thailand bank account. If the funds are arising outside Thailand, but not deposited, here then "proof" of such funds is required. Is that too difficult to understand? 

If you are living in Thailand you must by necessity be spending money in Thailand and IMM want to see that.  

 

Already in Thailand -- 800K bank account method. Show bank book and bank letter.

 

Income methods -- MUST have embassy letter. Further proof may be demanded.

Trying to discuss this with you is brick wall time. You think you understand but it doesn't sound like you do. The issue is about INCOME BASED applications. As of this date, Thai immigration has always required EMBASSY letter for those. 

 

Bye. 

[Russell17au]

3 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Read my Post 90. 

You do not need letters of income if your funds are either already in Thailand or coming into a Thailand bank account. If the funds are arising outside Thailand, but not deposited, here then "proof" of such funds is required. Is that too difficult to understand? 

If you are living in Thailand you must by necessity be spending money in Thailand and IMM want to see that.  

 

You are wrong scottiejohn, if you are using the income based system or the combination of income plus bank deposit then you must supply the letter of income for the income based part of the system. Using the income based system my money comes direct from the Australian government straight into my Thai bank account and I must supply Thai Immigration with a Statutory Declaration (letter of income) from the Australian Embassy as is required by Thai Immigration law

[Thailand]

7 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Thailand and scottiejohn.

Thailand Immigration has set down the requirements to obtain a visa and an extension and these requirements have been in force for some years now without any problems and because the British Embassy has decided to change what they are doing everyone wants Thai Immigration to change. NO. If you are a British subject then get onto your government and have things changed back. This is not a Thai Immigration problem it is a British Embassy problem and it is the British Embassy that must fix it. Australia use a Statutory Declaration that you fill in all the details and then you get the Australian Embassy to witness your signature and that is accepted by Thai Immigration and the onus is on you to tell the truth about your income. That is what is needed by the British Embassy

And hasn't the Statutory Declaration /Affidavit form of declaration been a problem for the Americans with immigration saying they are unacceptable without proof of income as too many were making false declarations, likely to happen with Australians also.

I am fully aware of what criteria has been and is required by immigration. Simply many people who can prove their income may find themselves unable to get their extensions of stay without an embassy confirmation of some sort, this will surely not only apply to Brits and Americans in the future.

Immigration are fully aware of this situation.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Thailand said:

And hasn't the Statutory Declaration /Affidavit form of declaration been a problem for the Americans with immigration saying they are unacceptable without proof of income as too many were making false declarations, likely to happen with Australians also.

I am fully aware of what criteria has been and is required by immigration. Simply many people who can prove their income may find themselves unable to get their extensions of stay without an embassy confirmation of some sort, this will surely not only apply to Brits and Americans in the future.

Immigration are fully aware of this situation.

They've been aware of the situation for many, many years! So far it appears only the Chiang Mai office Americans are consistently getting heat about this. 

[Russell17au]

Just now, Thailand said:

And hasn't the Statutory Declaration /Affidavit form of declaration been a problem for the Americans with immigration saying they are unacceptable without proof of income as too many were making false declarations, likely to happen with Australians also.

I am fully aware of what criteria has been and is required by immigration. Simply many people who can prove their income may find themselves unable to get their extensions of stay without an embassy confirmation of some sort, this will surely not only apply to Brits and Americans in the future.

Immigration are fully aware of this situation.

That has only been random inspections in Chiang Mai

From what I have seen is that the letter of income that is supplied by the British Embassy is filled in by the embassy staff and not the person and that the embassy will no longer take the responsibility of the verification of the document as so they will cease to supply that document to it citizens. All they need to do is change the type of document that they issue so that the onus is on the person who fills the document in, like Australia and many other countries do. It only appears to be affecting the British as America is still issuing the income letter.

[EricTh]

The logic is actually quite simple.

 

Thailand wants money to come into the country and not money earned from people staying in Thailand which will take away opportunities from other Thai owners.

 

I am not sure whether retirees are supposed to have passive income in Thailand and take that as sufficient income for visa.

[EricTh]

15 minutes ago, Thailand said:

 as too many were making false declarations, 

 

 

Occasionally, I do see some unscrupulous retirees taking or stealing free drinks and food in a certain vegetarian restaurant. 

 

If they really do have 65k every month, they won't be resorting to secretly taking free drinks without paying.

[nickmondo]

leave Chiang Mai.

Simple.

I am.

I am going to another province where the Immigration cops actually like people!!!!

[scottiejohn]

23 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

You are wrong scottiejohn, if you are using the income based system or the combination of income plus bank deposit then you must supply the letter of income for the income based part of the system. Using the income based system my money comes direct from the Australian government straight into my Thai bank account and I must supply Thai Immigration with a Statutory Declaration (letter of income) from the Australian Embassy as is required by Thai Immigration law

I give up with you winging lot.

Stick your head in the sands as much as you want.  The Law has NOT changed.  The Brit Embassy has NOT changed the law.  Just the Brits have the first Embassy to come into line with the LAW as it stands 

Happy retirement to all you worriers who have been working round the edges of the LAW.  I don't care. 

My money/income status has met the Thai Imm rules for twenty odd years and at present continues to do so.

[HampiK]

if you can life of the rental income, mean you invested quite some money. Then why not go the way of the extension based on investement?

 

[Spidey]

Just now, scottiejohn said:

I give up with you winging lot.

Stick your head in the sands as much as you want.  The Law has NOT changed.  The Brit Embassy has NOT changed the law.  Just the Brits have the first Embassy to come into line with the LAW as it stands 

Happy retirement to all you worriers who have been working round the edges of the LAW.  I don't care. 

My money/income status has met the Thai Imm rules for twenty odd years and at present continues to do so.

Well, if you currently use a British Embassy letter to support your visa extension application, then it's you who'll be whinging within the next 12 months. Good luck with sticking your head in the sand. Keep it up and you'll end up with your visa being replaced by a plane ticket back to Bonnie Scotland!

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

I give up with you winging lot.

Stick your head in the sands as much as you want.  The Law has NOT changed.  The Brit Embassy has NOT changed the law.  Just the Brits have the first Embassy to come into line with the LAW as it stands 

Happy retirement to all you worriers who have been working round the edges of the LAW.  I don't care. 

My money/income status has met the Thai Imm rules for twenty odd years and at present continues to do so.

Yeah, sure thing.

So have you been doing income based applications without EMBASSY letters?

Don't bother answering.

Because we know the answer.

It is NO.

Because Thai immigration doesn't accept income based applications without an embassy letter.

That's what this larger issue is about if you hadn't noticed.

The British embassy has announced they will no longer issue the REQUIRED income letters for income based applications. 

In the case of Americans in Chiang Mai (per the OP) he requires the letter as well for an income based letter but he is facing a "crackdown" of such American applicants looking for backup evidence to support the claim in the EMBASSY letter.

[NancyL]

Not every retiree receiving more than 65K a month is actually depositing that much money into a Thai bank.  For example, Hubby.  He has two pensions -- one a pension from a company that is direct deposited into Bangkok Bank, so no problems in showing that money coming into Thailand, but it's short of 65,000 baht/month. 

 

But, no problem, he also receives Social Security, deposited to a U.S. bank account that is actually in my name, with Hubby having signature authority.  (something tells me CM Imm won't like the account printout, showing me as the account owner)  We use that account to pay our Visa card charges each month and use the Visa card here in Thailand frequently.  So yes, it is used for purchases here in Thailand, but it's difficult to prove.

 

Why do we use this U.S.-issued Visa card in Thailand?  That's an easy question.  For online shopping.  We can contest a fraudulent charge very easily and have good records of our big purchases much better than if we were using cash.  Also we get "cash back" and other rewards for using this card.

[LomSak27]

On 10/11/2018 at 2:43 PM, Jingthing said:

On 10/11/2018 at 2:41 PM, flipside555 said:

That's interesting. Do you have any more info on it?

No. I am not in CM but there have been several reports about this in recent months. I don't know if they're doing it with all American income based applications but based on the number of reports, I would assume it's a strong possibility. 

Thought you knew something that I did not

 

No they a re not ... they might have got nasty with one or two people who interestingly enough seem to appear and then fade away  ... right with all the trolls  on Thai Visa you really take this seriously .... ?!

 

Does that answer your statement. No they are NOT. Real simple. This is based on myself and 10 to 15 people I have talked to while line sitting this month and last month. I was just there last Tuesday again While I come with Mutual fund info, bank info, I have never been asked to produce it. Just asked if I have the 2,500 USD or 65,000 Thai Baht/per month, as they look at the affidavit. And you just say Yes I do ..... That is it as of September October 2018.

 

I think in the future that this may change. Who knows what is coming. Next year they may just go to 800K BUT --- But right now, these last two months NO  

 

As for this OP, it is in visa agents interest to say things like this.  --- As the OP is not going to be doing the Extension himself, and seems confused, they can tell him anything, and likely confuse the heck out of him. When I was in there on Tuesday no mention about this.

[Jingthing]

Which supports NancyL's suggestion that he should just do the application himself. But he still needs to at least be prepared to provide evidence of the income claims in his embassy letter if challenged.

 

Just a theory but perhaps they are being harder on agency applicants than walk ins? If the agency is saying you must have this or that, do you think they just made that up?

 

I was saying a similar thing before when I said if it was me, I would avoid an agency and just go in there and beg. Of course there is no need to beg if you give them your documents and they don't give you anything to beg about!

[simoh1490]

16 minutes ago, HampiK said:

if you can life of the rental income, mean you invested quite some money. Then why not go the way of the extension based on investement?

 

BOI investment visa is 20 million or so. https://www.boi.go.th/upload/Checklist I_23 Apr 2018_5ae010b50464a.pdf

[sfokevin]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Which supports NancyL's suggestion that he should just do the application himself. But he still needs to be prepared to provide evidence of his embassy letter if challenged.

 

I was saying a similar thing before when I said if it was me, I would avoid an agency and just go in there and beg. Of course there is no need to beg if you give them your documents and they don't give you anything to beg about!

Are you talking about the OP doing his own application?... And submitting an embassy letter?... As the OP has local rental income (We can only assume form "property" that is legally in his name, duly registered and he is only acting as a passive investor?) He would need to have also reported this income on his home countries tax return and paid taxes on it (Again another if?) to be eligible for being included in any income letter?... Me thinks the OP does not have all these duck in a row... ????

 

As to CM Immigration asking all Americans for backup - This is simply not the case... It only been reported by a few - And I hate to say that if they were to post a picture of themselves and what they wore to Immigration that day we would understand why they were questioned...

[Russell17au]

26 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

I give up with you winging lot.

Stick your head in the sands as much as you want.  The Law has NOT changed.  The Brit Embassy has NOT changed the law.  Just the Brits have the first Embassy to come into line with the LAW as it stands 

Happy retirement to all you worriers who have been working round the edges of the LAW.  I don't care. 

My money/income status has met the Thai Imm rules for twenty odd years and at present continues to do so.

ha ha ha ha I have no problems and I do it legally and always have done so with no problems it is just the whinging poms that need to get their embassy to do something

[NancyL]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Which supports NancyL's suggestion that he should just do the application himself. But he still needs to at least be prepared to provide evidence of the income claims in his embassy letter if challenged.

 

Just a theory but perhaps they are being harder on agency applicants than walk ins? If the agency is saying you must have this or that, do you think they just made that up?

 

I was saying a similar thing before when I said if it was me, I would avoid an agency and just go in there and beg. Of course there is no need to beg if you give them your documents and they don't give you anything to beg about!

Often Imm. gives more scrutiny to first time applicants, not repeat applicants.  

 

The visa agents, especially the very reputable ones have seen every excuse for an application to be denied and they want their customers to be prepared for every question.  Personally, if the OP is doing everything above board, i.e. using a rental agent to manage his condos (which a foreigner can own), paying Thai income taxes, etc, then there should be no problem in using Thai-sourced income, even without a work permit.  To me, it's worth it to try to apply without an agent, 45 days in advance and if there's a problem, there time to work on a resolution.

[onera1961]

On 10/11/2018 at 3:29 AM, Jingthing said:

In Pattaya we have agents that do 800K baht applications

If permitted in this board (or else send me a private message), can you please tell me the agent that does 800K baht applications and their fees?

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

If permitted in this board (or else send me a private message), can you please tell me the agent that does 800K baht applications and their fees?

I don't use them and probably not OK to do that here. I don't think they're hard to locate though. Check local media for ads. 

[simoh1490]

4 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

If permitted in this board (or else send me a private message), can you please tell me the agent that does 800K baht applications and their fees?

I would be very very surprised if any reputable agent didn't do this. I use an agent in Chiang Mai for the same thing and I pay circa 7k baht per year, which includes 4 x 90 day reports and TM30 reporting - I've been using them without problems for at least five years.

[Trujillo]

"Foreigners may receive profits from a business, so they can invest in Thai businesses, ..."

 

This seemed like it was copy and pasted from something but I am not sure. 

However, as ...was it Seadog? asked, what do I make of this? 

Yes, I agree with the quoted statement but it doesn't apply here. The OP clearly is "receiving profits from a business," (his own self-generated income from "properties" he possesses) but not to invest in a Thai business. He's putting it in his own coffers. 

 

Again, we need a real government definition of "work." 

 

It seems to be that if you set up a "business," but didn't do anything yourself afterword (all without a work permit) and left everything to someone else, and all you did was take the money from that someone and put it in your bank account...isn't that work? I mean you are not investing, per se, since you are in essence providing a service (living quarters) for others. Isn't that one definition of work?