Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[howiem]

4 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

So why a letter?  if the THAI bank book shows the income what's the problem? 

There is no letter required after 1 Jan 2019, but they will accept letters I have been told on the phone for 6 months from 31 December

 

I suggest that everyone concerned about this read https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

Edited November 9, 2018 by howiem
Clarification

[Spidey]

Just now, howiem said:

There is no letter required after 1 Jan 2019, but they will accept letters I have been told on the phone for 6 months from 31 December

Really? Have you got a link that says that the embassy letter isn't required after the !st January?

[howiem]

Just now, Spidey said:

Really? Have you got a link that says that the embassy letter isn't required after the !st January?

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

[wgdanson]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

3 embassies, only 3, the German embassy that I use due to my German pension has told me they have no plans to stop issuing the letter.

Do they, the German Embassy, VERIFY that the income you declare is genuine, or do they just take your word for it, as the UK, USA and OZ Embassies were doing?

[Spidey]

16 minutes ago, Ctkong said:

i was told in certain countries ( Korea for example) in centuries ago, old people passed their productive years, would just leave their families and ventured into the wild to just die off so as not to put a strain on the family .

Which is why I came to live in Thailand. Always thinking of others, me. ????

[Ctkong]

39 minutes ago, Time Traveller said:

Correct. It is a good thing they are stopping these silly letters. People will save $50.

Good business for the embassy though.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, wgdanson said:

Do they, the German Embassy, VERIFY that the income you declare is genuine, or do they just take your word for it, as the UK, USA and OZ Embassies were doing?

The British Embassy didn't just take your word for it, you had to provide them with documented proof of income.

[soalbundy]

21 minutes ago, howiem said:

I think the answer to many of the questions is in this November 9, 2018 post at the Thai Immigration web site.  https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22 ,

 

It does not require any embassy letter.

 

 

yes, there is no mention of the embassy letter, the only sticking point is that IO's across the board demand one or no extension

[BobBKK]

5 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Do they, the German Embassy, VERIFY that the income you declare is genuine, or do they just take your word for it, as the UK, USA and OZ Embassies were doing?

UK never did that they required bank statements you are incorrect (not that it matters).

[Tanoshi]

13 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

You write your posts as if you knew more than us... So could you please enlighten us ?

Until now TI wanted a letter verifying your income. What is the "new way" they want it ?

Until a few months ago Immigration were under the impression Embassies were 'verifying' stated incomes.

Perhaps they thought the word 'certify' meant the same as 'verify'.

Regardless of that fact, Immigration became suspicious and when asked for financial supporting documents from expats to confirm the statements on their 'affidavits/stat decs', they came up short.

 

That obviously prompted the discussions with the Embassies and Immigration, who have now requested that the Embassies 'verify' the stated incomes. Embassies cannot 'verify' incomes, even from documents you may supply in support of obtaining the Income letter (as is the case with the BE), due to legal restrictions, namely Data Protection.

 

A typical example of 'verifying' a document, such as a UK marriage certificate, or a Degree for teaching, involves the documents firstly being confirmed as 'authentic'. This can only be done by (in the case of the UK) by the FCO in Milton Keynes. They can check the public records to authenticate a marriage certificate. (Verification)

Government or private establishment organisations would require you to either complete an authorisation form, or power of attorney, for the FCO to confirm the authenticity and content of the document.

That document would then need to be 'certified' by the Thai Embassy, London for it to be legally accepted as a genuine document for use in Thailand.

It may have to be translated into Thai and 'certified' by the MFA in Bangkok.

 

The Embassies cannot do that.

Documents supplied in evidence of income, affidavits, and stat dec statements were all previously taken in good faith by the Embassies. As with all good things, the few who have abused the system, have now spoiled it for the majority.

 

[jimn]

OMG another thread on the same topic with the same posters arguing about the same issues posted in the other 4 or so threads. Haven't TV members got anything better to do with their time?

Edited November 9, 2018 by jimn

[HungDonger]

If in future Thai Immigration demanded that the only option was 800,000 Baht in a Thai bank what percentage of people do you think couldn't comply ?

 

[Spidey]

Just now, jimn said:

OMG another thread on the same topic with the same posters arguing about the same issues posted in the other 4 or so threads. Haven't TV members got anything better to do with their time?

Haven't you got anything better to do than read them all?

[JackThompson]

 

40 minutes ago, Spidey said:

That's my biggest worry, too many people with false hopes (given by certain posters on TVF) who are going to get caught out when the time comes for their extension renewals plus many more who don't log in to TVF. Just watched an American vlogger, this morning, doing just that. 2k views in the last 24 hours. His previous vlog, in the same vein, has had 20k views in a week. Criminal.

Show up with a foreign tax-form and proof-of payment of taxes (as he quotes from the police-order re: Thai-family applications)?  Maybe some IO at some office will go for that - but I sure wouldn't count on it.

 

16 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

where does it say "the evidence required is an embassy letter"?

It doesn't, but that doesn't matter, either - it is what the IOs have always (and still) demand. 

 

Many seem to earnestly believe that IOs care what the rules are, what is published, or whether you "really" meet the financial-qualifications.  Maybe a few are like this.  But in the real-world, what they often want is agent-money - and any way they can deny-your in-person application to get that money flowing in will be utilized. 

 

33 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

The 'new' way if that's how you wish to put it, is the exact way posted in the guidance notes on the respective embassy websites. People keep questioning desk clerks at immigration offices and getting all kinds of conflicting information, isn't helping.

Unfortunately, it is those desk-clerks and their boss (possibly itching for more agent-money) who decide if you get your extension or not.

 

38 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

I'm still a bit confused. If you have the foreign income coming into your Thai bank account averaging 65,000 per month why any need for a letter? The bank book is all you should need.

 

31 minutes ago, Kurtf said:

The rest can easily produce a bank book showing the amounts of monthly deposits.

There is no history of this ever being accepted in the past - other than (maybe?) a couple reports from Korat - and many offices have, to-date, replied "No" to this option, when asked.  The policy, if it exists at all, may vary by office.

 

Everyone without the 400K/800K "money in the bank" is screwed, unless the embassies' claim that "regular deposits to a Thai bank account" are, indeed, accepted in-lieu of the letters where they live. We can hope for that - but hope is all we have, at this point. 

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Do they, the German Embassy, VERIFY that the income you declare is genuine, or do they just take your word for it, as the UK, USA and OZ Embassies were doing?

They cant and don't 'verify' income, they 'certify' that they have seen satisfactory proof of income, seems to satisfy the IO, the BE do the same thing but ruin it all with a caveat and start making a fuss about the word 'verify' which doesn't seem to bother most other embassies, or IO for that matter otherwise they would insist on the word in the letter which they don't.

[Spidey]

Just now, HungDonger said:

If in future Thai Immigration demanded that the only option was 800,000 Baht in a Thai bank what percentage of people do you think couldn't comply ?

 

Everyone. They'll all just use visa agents to seed a notional account for them.

[JackThompson]

 

32 minutes ago, Kurtf said:

It seems to me the only people negatively affected by this new policy are those that NEED an unverified income statement to continue living here in the Kingdom

26 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

(unless, of course, you don't really have that income coming in and you relied on your embassy to accept your 'word').

 

This "liar" talk needs to stop.  The standard was "income" - not "net remitted to Thailand".  Some say, "Well, obviously they meant..." - in which case, they don't know what the word "income" means - which is "How much money you make."  I have never seen it defined any other way - "income" is always pre-tax, pre-expenses.

 

Those folks were not lying to anyone - their letters were 100% legit.  The amount demanded was high-enough that such folks would have plenty left to live on in Thailand after expenses.  They were doing no harm in Thailand - only helping employ thousands of Thais with "free money" from abroad - and they are now screwed unless they can pay off an agent, rotate money back to their passport-country, or some other "workaround" scheme to cover their non-Thai expenses.

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Until a few months ago Immigration were under the impression Embassies were 'verifying' stated incomes.

Perhaps they thought the word 'certify' meant the same as 'verify'.

Regardless of that fact, Immigration became suspicious and when asked for financial supporting documents from expats to confirm the statements on their 'affidavits/stat decs', they came up short.

 

That obviously prompted the discussions with the Embassies and Immigration, who have now requested that the Embassies 'verify' the stated incomes. Embassies cannot 'verify' incomes, even from documents you may supply in support of obtaining the Income letter (as is the case with the BE), due to legal restrictions, namely Data Protection.

 

A typical example of 'verifying' a document, such as a UK marriage certificate, or a Degree for teaching, involves the documents firstly being confirmed as 'authentic'. This can only be done by (in the case of the UK) by the FCO in Milton Keynes. They can check the public records to authenticate a marriage certificate. (Verification)

Government or private establishment organisations would require you to either complete an authorisation form, or power of attorney, for the FCO to confirm the authenticity and content of the document.

That document would then need to be 'certified' by the Thai Embassy, London for it to be legally accepted as a genuine document for use in Thailand.

It may have to be translated into Thai and 'certified' by the MFA in Bangkok.

 

The Embassies cannot do that.

Documents supplied in evidence of income, affidavits, and stat dec statements were all previously taken in good faith by the Embassies. As with all good things, the few who have abused the system, have now spoiled it for the majority.

 

you have evidence that they asked the embassies to 'verify' ? German embassy still only certifies without problems. I fail to see how British expats couldn't produce supporting documents if these documents were the basis of receiving the letter

[Tanoshi]

17 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Do they, the German Embassy, VERIFY that the income you declare is genuine, or do they just take your word for it, as the UK, USA and OZ Embassies were doing?

No Embassy can verify your income.

The German Embassy operate the same as other Embassies.

 

They do offer the service to 'authenticate' and 'verify' certain documents but you need to sign a Power of Attorney.

[howiem]

13 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

yes, there is no mention of the embassy letter, the only sticking point is that IO's across the board demand one or no extension

True, for now, but the elimination of the requirement for the letter starts 1 Jan 2019, so the letters are required until then.

[JackThompson]

55 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

3 embassies, only 3, the German embassy that I use due to my German pension has told me they have no plans to stop issuing the letter.

This is what the USA and Aussie embassies said right up until they day they made their announcements.  Until that point, it looked like the BE was just trying to further trim services available to their citizens - didn't affect the "rest of us."

 

I am not making a prediction about what other embassies may or may not do - but "still available now" is not evidence of what they may announce tomorrow, or whether their letters will be of any use at some point next year (January, June - who knows).

[howiem]

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I am not making a prediction about what other embassies may or may not do - but "still available now" is not evidence of what they may announce tomorrow, or whether their letters will be of any use at some point next year (January, June - who knows).

Check this out...it is brand new https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

[BobBKK]

10 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

 

 

This "liar" talk needs to stop.  The standard was "income" - not "net remitted to Thailand".  Some say, "Well, obviously they meant..." - in which case, they don't know what the word "income" means - which is "How much money you make."  I have never seen it defined any other way - "income" is always pre-tax, pre-expenses.

 

Those folks were not lying to anyone - their letters were 100% legit.  The amount demanded was high-enough that such folks would have plenty left to live on in Thailand after expenses.  They were doing no harm in Thailand - only helping employ thousands of Thais with "free money" from abroad - and they are now screwed unless they can pay off an agent, rotate money back to their passport-country, or some other "workaround" scheme to cover their non-Thai expenses.

Come on. As with the 800,000 it has to be 'here' the whole purpose is to have the money in Thailand 'available' to meet expenses. I know several American friends who do not have the 65,000 and lied through the ridiculous system. 

 

Prove it through Thai bank book and stop this nonsense.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

This is what the USA and Aussie embassies said right up until they day they made their announcements.  Until that point, it looked like the BE was just trying to further trim services available to their citizens - didn't affect the "rest of us."

 

I am not making a prediction about what other embassies may or may not do - but "still available now" is not evidence of what they may announce tomorrow, or whether their letters will be of any use at some point next year (January, June - who knows).

Indeed, all we have is speculation without end, it could (to speculate further) be that TI declares itself satisfied with the word certify and all is well again. 

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, howiem said:

Check this out...it is brand new https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

it's already been posted, I don't believe this is anything new as the regulations have never mentioned an embassy letter in the past either but still insist on them.

[moe666]

11 hours ago, Kerryd said:

Yeah, I've never had a problem opening a bank account, even when all I had was a 30 day stamp in my passport and a Certificate of Residence. First account I ever opened, all I deposited was 1,000 baht. No hassles, no questions, no problems.

 

I suspect that a lot of people who tried to open accounts were living in hotels/guest houses and asking for "chequing" accounts and when turned down (because they were staying in a frikken hotel - or were asking for a Chequing account) started spreading stories about how it's all a conspiracy (yadda yadda). 

But of course, it's never their fault. It's always the (bank/government/anti-foreigner brigade/etc) whose to blame.
 

When I opened my first bank account I was told point blank we only open if you have home or apartment address, no problem I say gave them my friends address.

[ba ba]

18 hours ago, bkkgriz said:

I think it's cute that some people think their embassy gives a flying <deleted> about its citizens abroad. Consulates are there to collect fees and embassies exist to give cover to spies and diplomats. Sorry boys and girls, but you are on your own when you decide to leave the tax plantation of the west. Better be cashed up or very crafty to live abroad these days.

 

[ba ba]

Quite true i was going to say the same they don't give a rats about expats

[JackThompson]

37 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Come on. As with the 800,000 it has to be 'here' the whole purpose is to have the money in Thailand 'available' to meet expenses. I know several American friends who do not have the 65,000 and lied through the ridiculous system. 

 

Prove it through Thai bank book and stop this nonsense.

I did not say no liars willing to risk a felony-charge exist - I said thousands of people who followed the rules as written to-date based on gross "income" - and who don't have 800K Baht liquid-assets to sit in a Thai bank - are now screwed.  Even those lying weren't doing any harm here.  This action destroys Thai jobs and businesses, while hurting honest expats who supported them, for absolutely no above-board reason or purpose.  Only the agent-system, and those in the money-pipeline emanating from it, come out ahead.

[Kalasin Jo]

On 11/8/2018 at 2:54 AM, Orton Rd said:

All you have to organise is getting the correct amount of money in your bank account, or coming into it. The only people this change affects are the liars and fraudsters, as it was meant to

Not necessarily so. For the first time I decided that my next marriage extension would be by Embassy letter, firstly because I am a pensioner now ,whilst my savings are tied up. So this announcement was a shock as I do not have access to release savings in the time available ( and even if I did I would face a tax bill of 30% on such release when I had budgeted to avoid that anyway) until my renewal in January. So I have obtained my first and last BE pension letter and will go along with just that and see. Second because I have another home in Europe, which of course has attaching outgoings and when I'm there of course living expenses for myself and for my Thai wife who joins me there. In other words neither I nor she spend all our time, or money, in Thailand. So the Income letter seemed ideal. No need to stick 400k in my Thai bank unusable for the 2 months prior to renewal, and no need to be remitting 40k a month to the bank when we are not here either. But now I can prove neither requirement for my upcoming extension renewal. Hopefully there will be a transition or grace period ( the BE actually uses the words transition period in a letter to an acquaintance of mine) during which Embassy Income letters will suffice, and then for the renewal after this I can work out a way ( probably in part a loan ) to put 400k in the bank again, without hitting a high tax bill in my country of fiscal residence...or I guess I could just bite the bullet and sell up inEurope and live here full time. That's always been a back up long term plan, but hadn't got there in my head yet!!