Jomtien Immigration asked me for 10,000 Baht for change from Marriage to Retirement Extension

[sumrit]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I am not sure how he received a Non-O stamp based on income there, when income is not listed at all on her custom (fake) list of requirements, which I and others were given.  When was this?

 

My embassy income-letter (this was over a year ago) had the additional MFA stamp, plus I had a Thai bank-book with proof of the foreign-transferred income coming in.  She was not interested in my embassy-letter or backup-proof, and said income was not an option - only seasoned bank-money, which is another violation of the rules (don't need seasoning for a Non-O stamp).  It was suggested I xfer the money, then go on visa-exempt runs until it seasoned.  I got a Non-O Visa, instead.

When you apply for a change of visa status (eg: from tourist to non O) you have to state why you need to change your visa status, so if you say to be able to apply for a retirement extension, you would have to show you would qualify for that extension. Therefore the criteria is virtually the same as applying for that extension, the main difference being, if using 'money in the bank' the money doesn't have to be seasoned for the non O. The seasoning comes into play for the extension application. If using the income option you still had to show you had adequate income for the change of visa status.

 

This was about two years or so ago, was organized in room 7? (behind the retirement extension desk) and he saw a lady in the back left of the office, who took the application (and also offered the express service, which he politely declined). Because my mate was totally naive to the requirements I went in with him and was party to the whole conversation and system employed. I do remember that he had to supply an income letter from the BE for the change of visa status. He supplied the original plus a photocopy and, originally, by mistake they kept the copy and returned the original to him. We'd left the building and were just getting in the car when she came running out to get the original off my mate.

[JackThompson]

10 hours ago, sumrit said:

When you apply for a change of visa status (eg: from tourist to non O) you have to state why you need to change your visa status, so ...

Yes, I am intimately familiar with the process.  I had everything sufficient for a Non-O based on marriage with an MFA certified income-letter from the USA embassy. 

 

You are correct no seasoning is needed on "in the bank" money, but the person we are talking about claims there is - multiple reports.  I was told to send in the money, then do visa-exempt runs while it seasoned, so it was not a miscommunication.

 

Quote

This was about two years or so ago, was organized in room 7? (behind the retirement extension desk) and he saw a lady in the back left of the office, who took the application (and also offered the express service, which he politely declined). Because my mate was totally naive to the requirements I went in with him and was party to the whole conversation and system employed. I do remember that he had to supply an income letter from the BE for the change of visa status.

I assume it had the extra MFA certification-seal on it, since that office was famous for requiring that, before they quit accepting income-letters all together.  I did my research before my attempt, and had all their known "extras" in that office complete in-advance.

 

Quote

He supplied the original plus a photocopy and, originally, by mistake they kept the copy and returned the original to him. We'd left the building and were just getting in the car when she came running out to get the original off my mate.

That would have been a few months before I attempted it.  I (accompanied by my wife) was handed a fake requirements form with no income-option on it, which was handed to us from the laser-printer on the desk as soon as we sat down.  Another person has also reported this list.  There are a few other threads about the problems in that office - one longer one here:

another report here:
https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/939570-retirement-visa-requirements-in-jomtien/?do=findComment&comment=11084814

 

... and many more scattered throughout the forum.  In 2015 and prior, one could get it done in Bangkok, so most were told to go there, and had "no problem" service at Chang Wattana. 

 

In any case, what is important to know - a certain percentage of people are allowed to get service legitimately.  We see posts saying, "no problem for me," in most threads reporting corruption.  I assume most of these are legit, and some people are given normal service.  Perhaps it is just human-nature to think that the same people who didn't extort them (or their friend), wouldn't extort someone else.  But they do.

Edited November 29, 2018 by JackThompson

[sumrit]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Yes, I am intimately familiar with the process.  I had everything sufficient for a Non-O based on marriage with an MFA certified income-letter from the USA embassy. 

 

You are correct no seasoning is needed on "in the bank" money, but the person we are talking about claims there is - multiple reports.  I was told to send in the money, then do visa-exempt runs while it seasoned, so it was not a miscommunication.

 

I assume it had the extra MFA certification-seal on it, since that office was famous for requiring that, before they quit accepting income-letters all together.  I did my research before my attempt, and had all their known "extras" in that office complete in-advance.

 

That would have been a few months before I attempted it.  I (accompanied by my wife) was handed a fake requirements form with no income-option on it, which was handed to us from the laser-printer on the desk as soon as we sat down.  Another person has also reported this list.  There are a few other threads about the problems in that office - one longer one here:

another report here:
https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/939570-retirement-visa-requirements-in-jomtien/?do=findComment&comment=11084814

 

... and many more scattered throughout the forum.  In 2015 and prior, one could get it done in Bangkok, so most were told to go there, and had "no problem" service at Chang Wattana. 

 

In any case, what is important to know - a certain percentage of people are allowed to get service legitimately.  We see posts saying, "no problem for me," in most threads reporting corruption.  I assume most of these are legit, and some people are given normal service.  Perhaps it is just human-nature to think that the same people who didn't extort them (or their friend), wouldn't extort someone else.  But they do.

6

6

My mate used the income option and seasoning was not even discussed. She said she 'couldn't find her calculator' though and asked him to confirm his income verbally, in Thai, though, which I found strange at the time. I should also add she also sent a police officer to his house to confirm his address and speak to neighbours.

 

No 'MFA certification' supplied or asked for. It wasn't even mentioned.

 

With the greatest of respect, other than purely for translation, it's not always an advantage taking your wife along. Most Thai women are taught to accept and not to question everything they are told by somebody in power/uniform. And, if they do question something, they're dismissed as argumentative. A Thai policeman friend in Korat told me once that they expect foreigners to act in a similar fashion so I should always appear 'diplomatic'.

 

I do remember the 'Scotsman thread' well. He was complaining about 'his brothers' failure to get non O visa at Jomtien. I've no idea how accurate the actual application was but, if you read the thread carefully he/his brother were certainly very 'evasive' with some of the information they gave, both on TV and to immigration. IO's can refuse an application if they 'smell a rat'.

 

Yes, Bangkok was the only office authorized to convert visas around 2015 but that was only for a relatively short time and it did create its own problems, so that option was fairly quickly returned to Jomtien. 

 

I don't know why some people have problems while others don't but OI's are not stupid, they have seen and heard most scams many times over and are trained to spot them. The weakness in the system is undoubtedly corruption. The half-hearted attempts by immigration in general to close some of the loopholes definitely creates problems for legitimate applicants while allowing the illegal ones to find another way around the system. In my opinion, banning Agents would be the biggest step forward.

 

 

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, sumrit said:

No 'MFA certification' supplied or asked for. It wasn't even mentioned.

The "Need an MFA stamp" was the runaround they used on income-letters (per the latest reports I was following at the time), before they quit accepting them all together, which seems to have occurred about the time I applied.  It sounds like your friend got through before the MFA-stamp runaround began - maybe just after Bangkok ordered them to begin offering the Non-O.  

 

For all I know, they might allow income again, now.  It seems they figured out that we will comply with what is known (immediately reported online), so they try to make what "is needed" a moving target.

 

6 hours ago, sumrit said:

With the greatest of respect, other than purely for translation, it's not always an advantage taking your wife along. Most Thai women are taught to accept and not to question everything they are told by somebody in power/uniform.

Agreed - clueless on how to deal with corrupt officials (men in the family handling anything of that nature, in her case).  But my Non-O was to qualify for a marriage-based extension, so she was part of the "qualifications." The Non-O desk just lied to us, but no verbal taunting.  Their treatment of her at the marriage desk really upset her, and I agreed not to subject her to that again. 

 

6 hours ago, sumrit said:

I don't know why some people have problems while others don't but OI's are not stupid, they have seen and heard most scams many times over and are trained to spot them.

They don't care about scams, as long as they are being paid extra - scam or honest doesn't matter. 

 

6 hours ago, sumrit said:

In my opinion, banning Agents would be the biggest step forward.

That worked very well in the Philippines - "No Fixers" - period.  And the most friendly and helpful service I've ever encountered at a govt office in any country - multiple occasions in various locations across the country. 

 

Of course, this is combined with rules making it easy for people to stay, so there is no need of applicants to have rules bent for them, which reduces potential demand.

[smedly]

On 11/21/2018 at 9:44 AM, dallen52 said:

Perhaps they are all building up the nest eggs before the Big Joke weilds his Big Sword.?

the distribution network

 

IO in seat gets his cut

IO boss of counter gets his cut of all seats

IO boss of all dept counters gets his cut

IO boss of office gets his cut

IO boss of all regional offices gets his cut

IO boss of all regions gets his cut

 

all the way to the top

 

 

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, smedly said:

the distribution network

 

IO in seat gets his cut

IO boss of counter gets his cut of all seats

IO boss of all dept counters gets his cut

IO boss of office gets his cut

IO boss of all regional offices gets his cut

IO boss of all regions gets his cut

 

all the way to the top

 

 

If what you say we're true, would not all immigration offices be exercising the same or similar style of abuse of power for the purpose of extortion?

[JLCrab]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

the distribution network

 

IO in seat gets his cut

IO boss of counter gets his cut of all seats

IO boss of all dept counters gets his cut

IO boss of office gets his cut

IO boss of all regional offices gets his cut

IO boss of all regions gets his cut

 

all the way to the top

They only all get their share of the cut if you give them something to cut.

[JackThompson]

7 hours ago, Maestro said:

If what you say we're true, would not all immigration offices be exercising the same or similar style of abuse of power for the purpose of extortion?

Clearly, those who have supervisory authority must be in the game and/or afraid, or they would be trailing-personnel and raiding agent-offices publicly offering "no money extensions," then working their way up with plea-deals, finding all above in the chain.  But this might require creating new laws, with long prison sentences (RICO laws in the USA, as an example), to "encourage" those involved to disclose their superiors in the syndicate.  Fines and short prison-terms would not be enough.

Edited November 30, 2018 by JackThompson

[dallen52]

14 hours ago, smedly said:

the distribution network

 

IO in seat gets his cut

IO boss of counter gets his cut of all seats

IO boss of all dept counters gets his cut

IO boss of office gets his cut

IO boss of all regional offices gets his cut

IO boss of all regions gets his cut

 

all the way to the top

 

 

It's no different from the divisional police offices. 

They, (The higher ups) have their teams.

And a support chain that works together. 

And IF you get the nod, or referral to one of them and have the folding stuff, basically anything is possible. 

Witnessed it myself two weeks ago. 

Friend was in the wrong. 

No way out of it. Won't say what happened. 

However. 

A word in the right place, visiting rights at monkey house, food, cuffs off out of cell, police legal teams pick up the case, do a courtesy couple of days in the monkey house, Court case becomes a minimum affair, with fine and good behaviour. 

Plus the person concerned was allowed to have his Thaiwife inside the Court of appeal. 

Walking around freely.

Plus she got a 1000 baht refund on the fine, for translating. 

And NO report to immigration. 

All up about 70,000 baht. 

Plus a behaviour bond.

Instead of 3.5 years in chains.

Next day they went back to the Court to pick up the paperwork. 

All disappeared. 

Oh, plus police ride home after the Court case...

 

Big Joke and co. Will never stop it.

 

This is Thailand. 

[KhunFred]

Mercy!!! This could not be correct information. The TVF "Thai-O Philes" have assured me that the rule of law is intact in Thailand. Things are never done on a whim and the letter of the law is always followed. Officials are well informed about the policies of their particular agency and..........the cow jumped over the moon.????

[Bill Miller]

On 11/20/2018 at 12:18 PM, KittenKong said:

Report it to "Big Joke". If he really wants to clean up Immigration that will be an excellent place for him to start.

 

These cheap little chisellers really do bring disgrace on the whole country.

Yes. A couple of years ago doing normal extension based on retirement, as had been done before. This time the kid that checks your paperwork says "oh, no. Problem. You must see officer.
"Officer" wanted 16,000 baht to smooth the way, but I would still need to jump through several hoops. Same scenario where she quietly wrote the number on a slip of paper, but it never appeared on any of the "official" documents. Heard several others complain about this same officer. I would like to know if Big Joke is serious about his anti corruption campaign, and if this practice has stopped?
For a couple of years now I do a border bounce every ninety days instead. Gives an opportunity to take my Thai sweetie for a short trip, so it worked out that way for me.
A couple of thousand I might have gone for, but 16,000 is beyond my acceptance level.

[madmen]

Happened to me but for an retirement extension. She was trying to push me back to BKK for a translation of the stat dec and then offered to take care of it for 15k... I was the last of a few people there so nobody to overhear.

No thanks!

[Bill Miller]

On 11/28/2018 at 11:50 AM, JackThompson said:

One cannot get a Non-O stamp there following the official rules.  I have tried, as have many others, and we all had very similar experiences - fake-rules are invented at that desk, to block legitimate applications not accompanied by an agent-laundered bribe. 

 

If one lives in that service-area, the only other legit-options are going out to a Thai Consulate for a Visa (what I did) or moving to Bangkok (or another office where it is possible - not all are) and doing it there.

Yes. How I started becoming familiar with Savannakhet, Laos. 
I had at one time done some of this sort of stuff in Bkk, 2015 maybe?, but then was told, "No. You live in Chonburi. Must go to Jomtien."

 

[Bill Miller]

On 11/22/2018 at 9:56 AM, Wallander4 said:

Don't forget you need to provide witness, hand drawn map to/from Immigration to your home, multiple docs from your landlord (if renting) etc. etc. so yes definitely way more hassle

Is this the same in all jurisdictions, or are there some areas that think it is OK for a Thai and a farang to  marry for love?
Must be love, 'coz I can't anymore, and she says "Not interested for that since 50". ????
Just like to be able to sit and sleep together, argue about whose turn it is to walk the dog, etc., and if/when her daughter has kids spoil them up a bit. ????

[JackThompson]

8 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Is this the same in all jurisdictions, or are there some areas that think it is OK for a Thai and a farang to  marry for love?
Must be love, 'coz I can't anymore, and she says "Not interested for that since 50". ????
Just like to be able to sit and sleep together, argue about whose turn it is to walk the dog, etc., and if/when her daughter has kids spoil them up a bit. ????

Some jurisdictions are much more cooperative (i.e. less-corrupt and/or not at all anti-farang).  The approvals still must go up the chain, so they require some of the same pointless bits.  The difference is, the staff are helpful in assisting you to comply with what is needed to get through the hoops - rather than twisting those hoops every which way, to prevent a successful in-person (non-agent) application.

[KhunFred]

8 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Yes. How I started becoming familiar with Savannakhet, Laos. 
I had at one time done some of this sort of stuff in Bkk, 2015 maybe?, but then was told, "No. You live in Chonburi. Must go to Jomtien."

 

Now I'm wondering about retirement in Laos. It is quite obvious that there is no "fix" for the current insanity  over renewals of extension of stay. No income letters and no reasonably-priced alternative means "reason to leave the country".  Anyone know anything about living in Laos on an "eternal tourist visa"?

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, KhunFred said:

Now I'm wondering about retirement in Laos. It is quite obvious that there is no "fix" for the current insanity  over renewals of extension of stay. No income letters and no reasonably-priced alternative means "reason to leave the country".  Anyone know anything about living in Laos on an "eternal tourist visa"?

Reports I have seen indicate a Business Visa is purchased by-agents is used for longer stays.  In essence, this is not significantly different than paying off immigration via an agent here. 

 

The best alternatives nearby would be Cambodia, Vietnam, or The PI.  Vietnam and The PI welcome serial-tourist entries, and with the PI, you don't have to leave the country for an "out/in" for 3 years.  No "fixers" (agents) in the PI, so staff are friendly and helpful, with no "extra charges" for anything.  Cambodia allows one to buy a 3-mo to 1-year ME Visa (an actual visa-sticker, not an "extension") in-country for about $30 per-mo purchased + a $20 agent-fee.