Overstay Dramas

[Axel]

Where do you want to set a limit?

One day is not a serious cirme, fine with me. If the rule would say e.g.

"upto 20 days overstay you will have no problem" I am sure, we would have the same discussion. "Not fair, I overstayed only 21 days"

The basic rule in any country, "Don't <deleted> with immiration".

Staying on this word. Would somebody say

"I only overstayed a little bit, now she is a little bit pregnant"

[Darknight]

Dr pp wrote

I wonder how the authorities in your country treat overstayers.

When they catch illegals in europe thet receive a paper from the police telling them that they need to leave the schengen countrys in 7 days.

They need to sign this and are put back on the street.

Only to get caught again some months later. Same thing happens.

They will only deport you when you are involved in a crime. or have entered illegally through a network or such.

People overstaying on tourist visa's are rarely deported.

[4iner]

Axel

I have no more power to change limits than I do to reverse the rotation of the Earth.

There are however people in power that can make changes to "tired old laws" as change is warranted by safety,common sense, and public opionion, as well as countless other reasons to revise the law. Laws change with the times as people change with the times. All i am saying is that perhaps being jailed for a one day overstay is "excessive in my opinion".

Your comparison of "a little bit pregnant" to " I only stayed a little bit over " is lacking. A better use of the " a little bit pregnant" analagy would be " I am just a little bit opinionated". I am not picking on you or anything just that we are all opinionated some choose to voice it, some don't.

The correct forum for changes to the law would be conducted in the political arena such as Parliment, House of Commons, Congress, The United Nations or whatever political arena is in jurisdiction for that State, Country or group of Countries.

That said one of the forums available to us all for discussion (not action) is right here, so discuss, agree, disagree whatever but voice your opinion and allow others to do the same.

[MadFrankie]

cheap land border dudes will get slammed much worse that airport departure dudes. sound like a criminal robbery to me

yeah man

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Axel

I have no more power to change limits than I do to reverse the rotation of the Earth.

There are however people in power that can make changes to "tired old laws" as change is warranted by safety,common sense, and public opionion, as well as countless other reasons to revise the law. Laws change with the times as people change with the times. All i am saying is that perhaps being jailed for a one day overstay is "excessive in my opinion".

Your comparison of "a little bit pregnant" to " I only stayed a little bit over " is lacking. A better use of the " a little bit pregnant" analagy would be " I am just a little bit opinionated". I am not picking on you or anything just that we are all opinionated some choose to voice it, some don't.

The correct forum for changes to the law would be conducted in the political arena such as Parliment, House of Commons, Congress, The United Nations or whatever political arena is in jurisdiction for that State, Country or group of Countries.

That said one of the forums available to us all for discussion (not action) is right here, so discuss, agree, disagree whatever but voice your opinion and allow others to do the same.

Mightn't it be a helluva of lot easier if the punters simply complied with the laws ? For mine, it'd be easier on both sides.

[MadFrankie]

criminal robbery man.. Save the trees dude

[Axel]

Axel

I have no more power to change limits than I do to reverse the rotation of the Earth. ....."excessive in my opinion".

Sure 4iner, we discuss and agree or dis-agree. No problem.

Now my point is just one, as long as there is a law or a rule just follow it.

If somebody is permitted to stay for 30 days until May 25, as example, s/he knows it is 5/25, nearly one month in advance. Sufficient time to take action if needed.

The problem with any law, the prosecutors and the judges move within the the framework given. So the indictment will not be "overstayed by one day" but "overstayed". The punishment will be for such offence, if lucky lenience will be granted.

I give you another example, actually happened to me, once. I was caught and indicted for driving under influence. This was actually in Japan, but does not matter. The legal limit was 0.25 per mille. I was caught with 0.3. (In Europe the limit is (was) 0.8)

The indictment: Caught driving with a higher content than the permitted 0.25.

Nobody cared (and I did not complain) about the small diffference of only 0.05.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

As we have said Axel. First worlders wandering around have a bit of an ( incorrect ) idea that they are in some way, special. They are not special in any way whatsoever.

[taxexile]

Who here thinks being jailed for a one day overstay is fair?

he wasnt jailed, he was held in a police station for 3 hours before paying the fine and being sent on his way. which seems quite reasonable to me for someone whos' passport and visa may have been out of order.

[Axel]

As we have said Axel. First worlders wandering around have a bit of an ( incorrect ) idea that they are in some way, special. They are not special in any way whatsoever.

Yes, Dr. and here is Noddles at the very beginning of this threat:

Check your calender, plan your trip in advance,

set yer alarm and off you go!

Hence no more horror stories.

Makes absolutely sense and I do add one more, which might not be popular. Immigration is police and police has a target for making arrests otherwise the superiors might think that particular station is too lazy.

So, let's set up some check-points to find any offenders to the immigration law.

Result perhaps 10 in one night, enough for this month's target, let's lean back and relax again. Such might happen towards end of the month as it happens in traffic division where the Mi brown's suddenly give you tickets instead of taking money.

[4iner]

Axel

Comparison of overstay with under the influence is a good one.

I might add that in the vast majority of countries there is a greater penalty for a greater B.A.C. Might that possibly be a good idea approach to the overstay issue, with gradually increasing the penalty based on the number of days infraction.

jailed for one day still seems severe to me.

dr_pat_pong

"First Worlder" since this is the first world I have lived on I guess that applies to me. I don't feel anymore special than the next person. I am no greater or lesser of a being than anyone else on the planet. Nor do I feel anyone is greater or lesser than anyone else, just different thats all.

Do you feel that since a law is currently in place that there is no reason it should ever be questioned?

Sure I abide by the laws, but I don't see them as Infallible.

Laws were made by the "legislative powers that be" at a given time and place . No person or group of persons can make steadfast rules/laws that will withstand the test of time indefinately.

I would venture to say that the laws from your country of origin are not exactly the same as they were 200 years ago.

Why did they change?

[simey]

The law is not unclear here, neither does it seem particularly unfair. Ignorance of the law has never been an excuse, and there does not seem to be any vaguaries with the law here to get confused about. It's even stamped in your passport as a reminder. You have plenty of time to make the plan to leave, to not do so is either stupid in the extreme or shows a disregard for the law of the host country that is not to be tolerated either.

[Khun Larry]

You know what this country is like or I hope you do so the answer is quite simple

play by their rules as they can do much more to you than you can do to them.

Spot on.

When a small infraction has such unexpected and unreasonable consequences you cannot blame the less informed tourist, especially if the rules change or are arbitrarily applied like in LOS. It is the less informed who suffer unfairly.

Why is there a different fine if they "catch you" than if you show up at the airport?

Their system should certainly be feared which is not the same as respected.

[maerim]

Their system should certainly be feared which is not the same as respected

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Now I am from the .U.K. as from the first of this month I have the right to live in such paradise's as Romania, Bulgaria, Poland etc. but I on reflection decided to give this opportunity a miss.

So I live here, every 90 days we go to Burma ( well she does, I go back to Mai Sai after I get my passport stamped)

Yes it is a pain sometimes but what is the alternative?

You ever been to Eastern Europe?I had the good luck to work there and the Soivet Union when it was still in existance, what a dump!

I and everyone here has a choice, like it or lump it, me and I should think the vast majority of people here don't like so we have to lump it.

I am taking bookings for Romania, be quick.

As an afterthought we were on holiday in Kho Samui last year waiting for the ferry I got talking to an ex publican from the U.K. who boasted to me how much he had ripped the Inland Revenue off for.

He also said that the people in Kho Samui still had respect for the " White man"

[britainmal]

I don't think any of you understand what is going on here. According to the person who wrote this article, they said that, "The people was thrown in jail and abused and robbed and asked to pay unneccesaary fines that were not according to Thai law. Yes, the person overstayed on their visa for one day, but throwning them in jail for one day and being subject to abuse by other prisoners in jail is not according to Thai law for overstaying. This was abuse of power! This is what we are talking about. Every country in the world must go by UN treaty for human rights which Thailand is a part of. Let's stop just kissing the Thailand governments arse because they are not going by their own laws. Western countries do not do this to foreigners. I am not even talking about spending money to avoid justice as this is Thai style not foreign style.

[george]

The problem is that Thailand is not known to care about human rights.

[sabaijai]

I absolutely agree that If you choose to live in Thailand you MUST live by "their" rules.

That does not mean you have to like all of the rules. This forum should be a place where someone can voice their views even if everyone does not agree.  Yet when someone states they dislike one or more aspects of Thailand they are told to get out.

Who here thinks being jailed for a one day overstay is fair? I for one do not I have never done it myself but I don't see it as something so severe.

Sure fine him 1,000 baht or so and send him way. Long term overstays are another story entirely and should be dealt with more harshly.

Laws are put in place to give order to society not to give those that enforce the law "God-like" powers over us.

Just voicing my opinion and I refuse to apologize for having one.

I respect your opinion. I notice that many of the same forum members who like to respond "Those are the rules, take it or leave it," are also often the same members who in other cases may flippantly respond, "There are no rules, this is Thailand." etc. Self-serving one-upsmanship rather than any actual attempt to try and understand the dimensions and gradations of an issue.

IMO the original poster had a valid question for the members of a forum on a website calling itself "thaivisa.com." Here's my shot at an answer. Such detentions are the exception rather than the rule. It's a calculated risk -- chances are you'll never be checked before you leave. People do overstay unintentionally at times. A bus can break down, there can be a medical emergency, etc. I suspect this is why there's generally a one-day grace period for over-staying your visa. I would guess that in this particular Samui case the cops were feeling unusually ornery for whatever reason. Luck of the draw. That the punter was mugged in jail is, again, just bad luck. The odds thatyou would be arrested AND mugged as a consequence of a visa overstay must be infinitesimally small.

There's also the possibility there's more to this case, that those particular passengers may have been considered 'undesirables' for whatever reason and that that *may* explain the treatment they received. Hard to say what really happened, but I would stand by my opinion that it's a relatively isolated case. Sure there may be others, but out of the thousands who may be a day or two behind on their tourist visas at any given moment, most are not arrested or prosecuted.

There are rules and sometimes they can be bent and sometimes they can't, and it all depends on the situation and people involved. Like the police in any country, Thai police are allowed a certain discretion. I think it's safe to say that that margin of discretion is probably wider in Thailand than in many of our home countries.

As a point of comparison, and I'm not an expert on immigration in my own country, I would guess that immigration would be lenient on a foreign tourist who was late by only a day or two.

Edited May 26, 2004 by sabaijai

[Phil Conners]

The problem is that Thailand is not known to care about human rights.

Hm, this is getting interesting! If anyone else had the audacity to present such a statement the good "Dr." Patpong would surely have kick-banned that person within minutes. I am curious to see what he will do in this case.

[Khun Larry]

The problem is that Thailand is not known to care about human rights.

Hm, this is getting interesting! If anyone else had the audacity to present such a statement the good "Dr." Patpong would surely have kick-banned that person within minutes. I am curious to see what he will do in this case.

Thailand not caring about human rights goes without saying. As you have seen lately The US President doesn't seem to care either. There are few people in power who care about anyone but themselves.

So being informed of the dangers is a valuable service of this forum.

Naturally, when someone in power censors credible information they do a great disservice to Thai Visa website, the members of this forum, and the very valuable free exchange of information. Censoring the site due to fear of the Thai authorities, if that is the case, would be more understandable.

[maerim]

Censoring the site due to fear of the Thai authorities, if that is the case, would be more understandable

The question is would they tell you?

[seville]

Oh, really. What about all the middle easterners that got rounded up and are still sitting in U.S. jails? I'm not saying any of this is right, but to state that western countries don't have abuse of power problems is naive.

[maerim]

but to state that western countries don't have abuse of power problems is naive.

Well I for one never said that, but all and I mean all governments can do more to me than I can do to them as I am getting a bit long in the tooth for fighting and for all its faults I love living here, I give in.

Keep a low profile and head down below the parapets, go out of the country every 90 days and to the pub most nights.

[Axel]

The problem is that Thailand is not known to care about human rights.

Hm, this is getting interesting! If anyone else had the audacity to present such a statement the good "Dr." Patpong would surely have kick-banned that person within minutes. I am curious to see what he will do in this case.

Actually Why?

George made a statement that is absolutely correct.

Why should the Dr. (not "Dr.") ban him, which, I believe, he anyway could not do.

I do not know any member in here personally, but I read. Lot's of serious stuff (sorry George). lot's of one liners (sorry Dr.) but once or twice Pat_Pong explained that he earned his 'Dr.' by promoting (is this the right english word? I think it comes from promovere) the relevant papers.

Back to the 'overstay dramas'. Following the last few posts, I think GWB is not overstaying, he was not even invited.

For Thailand, just try to stay within the laws or call your Senator or Congress man and ask him(her) to help to change.

"Take it or leave"? Not really, just check what is required and do it. If tomorrow the rules are changed (or today in another office) fine with me.

[Khun Larry]

Oh, really. What about all the middle easterners that got rounded up and are still sitting in U.S. jails? I'm not saying any of this is right, but to state that western countries don't have abuse of power problems is naive.

You make a good point and it is disturbing to see this in my own country. As I said, there are few people in power who care about anyone but themselves.

I believe there is a difference between Thailand and the US on this matter. US citizens, as a group, like to think of themselves caring about human rights. Many have spoken out about the point you raise. Lawsuits have been filed etc. It is frustrating to watch your own govt abusing people with no accountability.

Thai people seem to be more passive on the issue, silent may be a better description.

The US government is also to be feared more so than respected. Lately, the value of a free press is about the only positive item to report.

Hopefully King George will be out in Nov.

Chookdee

[unbiasbob]

The problem is that Thailand is not known to care about human rights.

Hm, this is getting interesting! If anyone else had the audacity to present such a statement the good "Dr." Patpong would surely have kick-banned that person within minutes. I am curious to see what he will do in this case.

when Dr P kick bans someone he has valid reason

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The problem is that Thailand is not known to care about human rights.

Hm, this is getting interesting! If anyone else had the audacity to present such a statement the good "Dr." Patpong would surely have kick-banned that person within minutes. I am curious to see what he will do in this case.

Nothing. He is entitled to opinions. The T i T comments are made sometimes because even the bureacracy can't agree on the legalities for many issues. It is difficult then for mere mortals to give absolutely unqualified replies.

[Khun Larry]

when Dr P kick bans someone he has valid reason

Oh. Seems otherwise

What do you base this on?

[george]

We are way off topic in this thread.

Closed.

/Admin