'Trust me', Britain's May tells EU leaders she can get Brexit deal passed

[Grouse]

40 minutes ago, rixalex said:

So let's get this straight.

When you stated, "everyone knew referendums were advisory", what you really meant to say was, "nobody knew". OK. Par for the course.

And in spite of the fact that as far as everyone in the country was aware, the vote was to be respected and binding, as promised by the PM - a promise that wasn't contested by any other politician - the fact that it has now since been discovered that legally the vote need not be respected and can be ignored, you think that rather go with what was believed by everyone at the time, including yourself, it's better to just ignore it, since legally that is what CAN be done.

And this standpoint of yours has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the vote didn't go the way you wanted it to, and indeed even had remain won, here you would be arguing for the vote to be ignored.

Don't you ever have moments of clarity when you can actually hear what you're saying and realise what an embarrassment you're making of yourself with this stuff? You're 64. What happened to you?

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I just finessed you

 

Of course I didn't know whether the referendum was binding or not!

 

We have all learned many things over the past couple years. Me too.

 

And that is why we need a second referendum to see what people think now that they know so much more.

 

You walked straight into my trap. SNAP. 

[rixalex]

I just finessed you
 
Of course I didn't know whether the referendum was binding or not!
 
We have all learned many things over the past couple years. Me too.
 
And that is why we need a second referendum to see what people think now that they know so much more.
 
You walked straight into my trap. SNAP. 

You haven't "finessed" anyone, you've just made a fool of yourself.

It wasn't that you didn't know whether the vote was binding or not. It was that you thought it was binding at the time of the vote. WE ALL DID. Maybe had we all thought we were simply participating in an opinion poll, arguing now that the vote need not be respected would make some kind of sense, as you could argue people didn't take it seriously. That wasn't the case. Everyone, as you have admitted, expected it to be respected and binding. The fact that legally it need not be respected or binding, is not reason in itself to no longer respect the vote or for it to be binding. It's a twisted logic that makes you think otherwise.

But of course twisted logic is the centrepiece of all your arguments. Just like your argument that referendums are purely opinion polls. Oh, and yes, don't laugh, now you tell us, "we need another referendum".... and no doubt, if remain wins, it'll be the will of the people and must be respected. If leave wins, it's just advisory and the politicians can overrule because the people didn't know what they were voting for.

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[malagateddy]

I just finessed you
 
Of course I didn't know whether the referendum was binding or not!
 
We have all learned many things over the past couple years. Me too.
 
And that is why we need a second referendum to see what people think now that they know so much more.
 
You walked straight into my trap. SNAP. 

You are a bitter remoaning loser..lets be honest

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[Grouse]

33 minutes ago, rixalex said:

You haven't "finessed" anyone, you've just made a fool of yourself.

It wasn't that you didn't know whether the vote was binding or not. It was that you thought it was binding at the time of the vote. WE ALL DID. Maybe had we all thought we were simply participating in an opinion poll, arguing now that the vote need not be respected would make some kind of sense, as you could argue people didn't take it seriously. That wasn't the case. Everyone, as you have admitted, expected it to be respected and binding. The fact that legally it need not be respected or binding, is not reason in itself to no longer respect the vote or for it to be binding. It's a twisted logic that makes you think otherwise.

But of course twisted logic is the centrepiece of all your arguments. Just like your argument that referendums are purely opinion polls. Oh, and yes, don't laugh, now you tell us, "we need another referendum".... and no doubt, if remain wins, it'll be the will of the people and must be respected. If leave wins, it's just advisory and the politicians can overrule because the people didn't know what they were voting for.

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Up to you

 

But you know when you've been tangoed ????

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I just finessed you

 

Of course I didn't know whether the referendum was binding or not!

 

We have all learned many things over the past couple years. Me too.

 

And that is why we need a second referendum to see what people think now that they know so much more.

 

You walked straight into my trap. SNAP. 

Well done Baldrick!

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Is this guy the officer in Blackadder's WW1 series? You have me at a disadvantage sir, I don't own a TV and have hardly ever watched one for many years. The trinity tiddlywinker is a reference that I don't understand, I used the word colleague in order to avoid the word friend, the Thesaurus is the most erudite of dinosaurs. 

Hugh Laurie. Obvious moaner. Wanted "best of three" right after the referendum result was out.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

Stop wriggling man!

 

Everyone knew that referendums are advisory only in the U.K. Unless stated otherwise

 

That is WHY a super majority was not specified

 

That is WHY Cameron felt it necessary to state that WE (the Government) and WE the CONs will implement what you decide. He had a majority remember.

 

Pariament was not bound to do anything.

 

FACTS

Then HE should have bloody well stayed and done the job properly.

[malagateddy]

Then HE should have bloody well stayed and done the job properly.

Cameron's just another chancer with poor judgement..eg..getting rid of Gaddafi..another wonderful <deleted> up

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[My Thai Life]

On 12/15/2018 at 4:13 PM, Grouse said:

We have all learned many things over the past couple years. Me too.

My concern is that some of the key issues are still misunderstood, in Parliament as well as on this forum. The Irish border and free trade spring to mind, but there are many others.

 

In general this forum seems to be less interested in information and discussion, and more interested in bunfighting, and so does Parliament.

 

I really paid absolutely no attention to the pre referendum debate, on the internet or on tv or face-to-face. 

 

But given that I started from a fairly well informed position on trade and economics, I wouldn't say that I've learnt much over the last few months in those areas, plenty of detail of course, but nothing in principal.

 

But on the politics of the EU I have learnt quite a lot, and I'm more convinced than ever that the EU needs core reform.

 

Given the onwards march of ever-closer union, this would seem to be a good juncture for the UK to leave, much as it pains me to say that.

[dick dasterdly]

On 12/14/2018 at 12:04 PM, Pilotman said:

What are you talking about, or more accurately, what are you smoking or drinking?   Good job the forum rules do not permit a more 'focused' reply to you and your views. It may have escaped your notice, but wars happen all the time and thank providence that many young people in the UK are still prepared to risk their lives in the service of their Country.  . 

Everyone to their own.

 

Personally, I think anyone that volunteers (unless they're the Sandhurst type who are unlikely to ever be in the line of fire....) are extremely stupid.

 

Admittedly they may learn some useful skills that will serve them in civilian life - but on the other hand they may well die serving their 'masters' - who are only serving political aims....

 

But of course this is entirely off-topic - and deserves a thread of it's own in perhaps, the General forum?

[dick dasterdly]

On 12/14/2018 at 12:04 PM, Pilotman said:

What are you talking about, or more accurately, what are you smoking or drinking?   Good job the forum rules do not permit a more 'focused' reply to you and your views. It may have escaped your notice, but wars happen all the time and thank providence that many young people in the UK are still prepared to risk their lives in the service of their Country.  . 

Everyone to their own.

 

Personally, I think anyone that volunteers (unless they're the Sandhurst type who are unlikely to ever be in the line of fire....) are extremely stupid.

 

Admittedly they may learn some useful skills that will serve them in civilian life - but on the other hand they may well die serving their 'masters' - who are only serving political aims....

 

But of course this is entirely off-topic - and deserves a thread of it's own in perhaps, the General forum?

[dick dasterdly]

On 12/15/2018 at 2:30 PM, Grouse said:

????

 

And that my friend is EXACTLY why we need a second referendum because NOBODY, including me, knew everything at the time. But we do now.

 

Thank you for making my point.

 

I rest my case

Do you genuinely believe that the electorate (including yourself) believed that the referendum was only advisory?

 

Bearing in mind that not only had the PM Cameron stated the opposite, and frequently declared on TV the 'consequences' of a leave vote - but the govt. had also sent out a leaflet to every household promoting remain, whilst also promising that the vote would be respected???

[dick dasterdly]

I'd add, that the only thing we "know" is that May has no intention of the uk leaving the eu, and is even prepared to accept the worst possible deal in her efforts to remain within the eu!

[dick dasterdly]

On 12/14/2018 at 8:11 PM, Grouse said:

OK I hereby agree to give all Brexiters the full respect to which they are entitled.

What is wrong with you?

 

Why are you unable to respect that others have a different experience of life, and a different opinion??

[dick dasterdly]

On 12/14/2018 at 9:42 PM, welovesundaysatspace said:

If people vote in a due legal democratic process and those who didn’t get it their way try to subvert the result through civil unrest, then that’s criminal and has nothing to do with democracy. 

 

 

 

I'm obviously missing something here, as those trying to "subvert the result through civil unrest" are remainers?

[welovesundaysatspace]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm obviously missing something here, as those trying to "subvert the result through civil unrest" are remainers?

Yes, you were missing that we were talking about a potential second referendum, and (as someone claimed) people starting civil unrest because of the result of such. 

[dick dasterdly]

On 12/14/2018 at 10:42 PM, Grouse said:

You are entirely incorrect. I have explained all the points to you but you plough on regardless. Do you have trouble comprehending cogent arguement? The referendum was advisory. Parliament did not agree to be bound by the advice. The CONs called it burning longer have majority to deliver it. Two years later, most of us have learnt more. I suspect that Brexit no longer has any form of majority.

 

Frankly, the French could teach us some lessons on how to get a reasonable life with good schools, hospitals, pensions, short working weeks and many other aspects of life. Pass the Beaujolais Toto!

"You are entirely incorrect. I have explained all the points to you but you plough on regardless. Do you have trouble comprehending cogent arguement? The referendum was advisory."

 

It's very clear that the opposite is true.

 

You and other remainers pretend to prefer that everyone thought the referendum was "advisory" - despite the fact that Cameron and the govt. leaflet (sent to every household and supporting remain....) stated otherwise.....

 

Its very clear that you have trouble "comprehending cogent arguement"!

[dick dasterdly]

On 12/14/2018 at 10:53 PM, tebee said:

That is because that is exactly what it was - a glorified opinion poll.

 

I want politicians who understand the constitution and their duties under it.

 

I do not want politicians who pander to populist rhetoric . 

No, you want politicians that agree with your POV and are prepared to find a way around the democratic referendum!

[SheungWan]

34 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'd add, that the only thing we "know" is that May has no intention of the uk leaving the eu, and is even prepared to accept the worst possible deal in her efforts to remain within the eu!

If Theresa May wanted the worst possible deal she would be a Hard Brexiteer.

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

No, you want politicians that agree with your POV and are prepared to find a way around the democratic referendum!

The Royal Prerogative Team speak out.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

No, you want politicians that agree with your POV and are prepared to find a way around the democratic referendum!

Catching up on these threads after an enforced 'holiday' - only makes me even more bad-tempered ????!

 

Edit - still working my way through the thread ????.

[dick dasterdly]

On 12/14/2018 at 10:53 PM, tebee said:

That is because that is exactly what it was - a glorified opinion poll.

 

I want politicians who understand the constitution and their duties under it.

 

I do not want politicians who pander to populist rhetoric . 

And I don't want politicians that pander to their own personal benefit.

 

We're both going to be disappointed.

[tebee]

48 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Do you genuinely believe that the electorate (including yourself) believed that the referendum was only advisory?

 

Bearing in mind that not only had the PM Cameron stated the opposite, and frequently declared on TV the 'consequences' of a leave vote - but the govt. had also sent out a leaflet to every household promoting remain, whilst also promising that the vote would be respected???

I believed it, and I was one of the electorate.

 

That could be because I follow the news and remember the debate in parliament. Never bothered the read Cameron's missif and even if I had would have dismissed that promise as a political gesture as I knew it couldn't be legally binding.

 

If you want a legally binding referendum, have another one where it is made clear to all that the result is legally binding before we start, not say it's not binding and then make a throw-away getstre saying it is.    

[Jip99]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

I believed it, and I was one of the electorate.

 

That could be because I follow the news and remember the debate in parliament. Never bothered the read Cameron's missif and even if I had would have dismissed that promise as a political gesture as I knew it couldn't be legally binding. 

 

 

 

Never read the PM's missive..... ?

 

 

You get what you deserve....

[tebee]

49 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'd add, that the only thing we "know" is that May has no intention of the uk leaving the eu, and is even prepared to accept the worst possible deal in her efforts to remain within the eu!

As a remainer I'm not ever sure I want May on my side. She's a small minded nasty piece of work and a xenophobe.

 

The crappy deal is more down to her lack of negotiating prowess, interpersonal skills and personal biases resulting in the red lines. She only ended up being prime minister because the better, more intelligent people recognized what a poison chalice brexit is.         

[rixalex]

Do you genuinely believe that the electorate (including yourself) believed that the referendum was only advisory?
 
Bearing in mind that not only had the PM Cameron stated the opposite, and frequently declared on TV the 'consequences' of a leave vote - but the govt. had also sent out a leaflet to every household promoting remain, whilst also promising that the vote would be respected???

No he admits he thought the vote was binding when he voted. But he thinks that because it subsequently came to light that it need not be binding, that means it shouldn't be. Don't waste your time searching for the rationale or logic. There is none.

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[melvinmelvin]

51 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

If Theresa May wanted the worst possible deal she would be a Hard Brexiteer.

 

No deal is better than a bad deal comes to mind.

 

[tebee]

24 minutes ago, rixalex said:

No he admits he thought the vote was binding when he voted. But he thinks that because it subsequently came to light that it need not be binding, that means it shouldn't be. Don't waste your time searching for the rationale or logic. There is none.

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There are some of us around who understand how the British constitution works and know the vote could not be binding.

[dick dasterdly]

On 12/15/2018 at 1:27 PM, Grouse said:

Stop wriggling man!

 

Everyone knew that referendums are advisory only in the U.K. Unless stated otherwise

 

That is WHY a super majority was not specified

 

That is WHY Cameron felt it necessary to state that WE (the Government) and WE the CONs will implement what you decide. He had a majority remember.

 

Pariament was not bound to do anything.

 

FACTS

"Stop wriggling man!"

 

You and other remainers are the only ones that are "wriggling" - in their desperate attempts to pretend that the referendum was only "advisory".....

 

At the time, everyone knew/believed that the govt. meant what they said - they would enact the referendum result.  Only desperate remainers pretend otherwise....

[tebee]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Stop wriggling man!"

 

You and other remainers are the only ones that are "wriggling" - in their desperate attempts to pretend that the referendum was only "advisory".....

 

At the time, everyone knew/believed that the govt. meant what they said - they would enact the referendum result.  Only desperate remainers pretend otherwise....

It was advisory.

 

Are you naive enough to believe everything politicians tell you?

 

Have a bridge you might be interested in....