Disappearing democracy

[Odysseus123]

So..what happened to the monument?

 

By whose authority was it removed?

 

Where is it now?

 

Where will it be sited in the future?

 

Or are we all happy in the land of baneful authoritarianism?

[monkfish]

1 hour ago, Fex Bluse said:

Good morning.

 

Please pardon me jumping in. I know some of my friends will disagree, but I genuinely question whether Democracy is the best course for Thailand at this stage in their development.

 

There are other successful forms of governing, particularly in Asia. Singapore and China are interesting examples. I would not classify either as Democracies.

 

Anyway, if we can agree that Democracy only works well when voters are educated -- especially on key issues -- we have to then assess the current and expected future state of education in Thailand. An old, but good read on the link between education and civic participation is here: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/glaeser/files/democracy_final_jeg_1.pdf

 

I would suggest that Thais will continue to be very, very poorly educated as having a population of psuedo-serfs, who are encouraged -- actually, required -- to be happy with whatever life gives them, is fundamental to Thai culture. Poor education is central to keeping Thais -- Thai. And, I think the power brokers in the country are more concerned with maintaining the culture than making the country, as a whole and not just for those of high birth, a prosperous country.

No no nooo please nonon not like Singapore!

The Chinese live in state owned gray Apartment boxes there is no freedom and virtually no more art or culture without state permission, they only live for work.
No I don't think either those models will suit Thailand.
Democracy worked fine in Thailand for a while until it was undermined by those who claim to be Educated so no I don't agree Democracy only works when voters are educated. In Fact it's the uneducated people who claim democracy from the educated Aristocrats and usually unfortunately has to be done force.
Yes I do agree Thai culture is part of the problem it doesn't work hand in hand with the democracy concept where people are equal and no one is above the law.
 

[Fex Bluse]

29 minutes ago, monkfish said:

No no nooo please nonon not like Singapore!

The Chinese live in state owned gray Apartment boxes there is no freedom and virtually no more art or culture without state permission, they only live for work.
No I don't think either those models will suit Thailand.
Democracy worked fine in Thailand for a while until it was undermined by those who claim to be Educated so no I don't agree Democracy only works when voters are educated. In Fact it's the uneducated people who claim democracy from the educated Aristocrats and usually unfortunately has to be done force.
Yes I do agree Thai culture is part of the problem it doesn't work hand in hand with the democracy concept where people are equal and no one is above the law.
 

Yeah, I hear you and agree.

 

I continue to be impressed with much of Asian culture, but they broadly seem to either be disinterested in balance or simply don't know how to attain it.

 

Singaporeans live to work.

Thais live to play and purely for pleasure.

 

Both societies, in my opinion, are almost perfectly and uniformly boring. 

 

Anyway, c'est la vie

Edited January 6, 2019 by Fex Bluse

[jayboy]

2 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

Good morning.

 

Please pardon me jumping in. I know some of my friends will disagree, but I genuinely question whether Democracy is the best course for Thailand at this stage in their development.

 

There are other successful forms of governing, particularly in Asia. Singapore and China are interesting examples. I would not classify either as Democracies.

 

Anyway, if we can agree that Democracy only works well when voters are educated -- especially on key issues -- we have to then assess the current and expected future state of education in Thailand. An old, but good read on the link between education and civic participation is here: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/glaeser/files/democracy_final_jeg_1.pdf

 

I would suggest that Thais will continue to be very, very poorly educated as having a population of psuedo-serfs, who are encouraged -- actually, required -- to be happy with whatever life gives them, is fundamental to Thai culture. Poor education is central to keeping Thais -- Thai. And, I think the power brokers in the country are more concerned with maintaining the culture than making the country, as a whole and not just for those of high birth, a prosperous country.

Nonsense. Singapore and China are completely different. Also, as the somewhat tendentious, article you quote argues - China will inevitably become democratic as the people are rapidly becoming more educated. But there is no sign of this at all -quite the reverse Many would not agree that democracy only works well when the people are educated - take India as an example. In any event democracy never "works well" anywhere: it is always imperfect. There is also the classic confusion between "educated" and being able to take rational responsible decisions at the ballot box.

 

Thailand's educational system is certainly mediocre but the country spends more than its neighbors on education. The solution is reform, not to invoke pub talk type conspiracy theories that the elite wants to keep the people down. And your final sentence reveals a lamentable ignorance of the economic history of Thailand over the last 30 years which has seen a huge increase in prosperity and one that has spread through all strata of society - if not that evenly. Does this mean that we are now in broad sunlit uplands? Of course not.Revolutions happen when things are getting better - not when they are stagnant or getting worse.

[jayboy]

32 minutes ago, monkfish said:

No no nooo please nonon not like Singapore!

The Chinese live in state owned gray Apartment boxes there is no freedom and virtually no more art or culture without state permission, they only live for work.

 

3

Singapore may not be the model for Thailand, though I'm sure most Thais would welcome the world-class standards of healthcare and education that Singapore provides its citizens.

 

As to your second sentence, it is uninformed nonsense.

[jayboy]

9 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

Yeah, I hear you and agree.

 

I continue to be impressed with much of Asian culture, but they broadly seem to either be disinterested in balance or simply don't know how to attain it.

 

Singaporeans live to work.

Thais live to play and purely for pleasure.

 

Both societies, in my opinion, are almost perfectly and uniformly boring. 

 

Anyway, c'est la vie

Pure pub talk - means nothing.

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, Odysseus123 said:

So..what happened to the monument?

 

By whose authority was it removed?

 

Where is it now?

 

Where will it be sited in the future?

 

Or are we all happy in the land of baneful authoritarianism?

Apparently the monument has been removed to make room for a skytrain station.

I would not think a lot about it, a monument is just a monument, in this case not even beautiful.

Economy (money) is the new god, not only in Thailand, let's not be in denial about it... i would be more upset if the authorities had removed a century-old tree.

[jayboy]

On 1/5/2019 at 9:53 AM, cmsally said:

Must admit, I have been doing a fair bit of planning over the past 10 years sensing this sort of stuff was coming along.

It is going to get worse overall for the Thais and as a foreigner with options it is your duty to yourself to make sure you don't get dragged down as well.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but the Thailand of today compared to the one I first saw almost 30 years ago is a much harsher place.

How is it harsher? For Thais, life has become much better on the whole.

 

If you mean it's harder for the lower income type of foreigner, you might be right.

[cmsally]

10 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Apparently the monument has been removed to make room for a skytrain station.

I would not think a lot about it, a monument is just a monument, in this case not even beautiful.

Economy (money) is the new god, not only in Thailand, let's not be in denial about it... i would be more upset if the authorities had removed a century-old tree.

From the articles I found it was moved in 2016 out of the way of the skytrain and now it seems to have plain disappeared.

[jayboy]

On 1/5/2019 at 11:04 AM, ballpoint said:

But, is Thailand any harsher than 1973, or 1976, or 1992, or 2010?  Government wise, today and 30 years ago aren't so different.  Back then the unelected Prem was in charge.  When elections were held, in 1989, a corrupt government was installed, which was removed by a coup in 1991, followed by an appointed civilian administration, (which, ironically was arguably the best and fairest the country has ever had). When elections were held, a corrupt government was installed, followed by a number of others, the last of which was removed by a coup in 2006, followed by an appointed administration, followed by corrupt governments, followed by a coup, followed by a self appointed administration... 

 

Around it goes.  Chatichai Choonhaven was firmly on the military side in the '70s, overthrown by a coup in the '90s, his party then sided with Suchinda Kraprayoon, the coup maker.  Chamlong Srimuang was also firmly on the military side in the '70s, became the main coup opponent in the '90s.  Thaksin Shinawatra began politics allied to Chamlong in the '90s, formed a coalition with the coup supporting parties in the '00s before absorbing most of them into his own party.  Pallop Pinmanee was a key figure in a number of coups, later joined the PAD fighting against Thaksin, left them because they wouldn't support his violent methods and joined the UDD, fighting for Thaksin.  Ended up as an advisor to the Yingluck Shinawatra government.  Sonthi Boonyaratglin lead a coup overthrowing Thaksin in 2006, formed a political party and joined Thaksin's coalition in 2011.  All the starry eyed talk on here about good and bad governments and ideologies in Thailand is hogwash.  Elected / non-elected, they're all trying to wring as much out of the country as they can while their noses are in the trough, and will do all it takes to get their noses in that position.

 

If talking about life in general however, then sadly the whole world is a much harsher place than it was 30 years ago.

I wouldn't put recent Thai history quite in the way you do, but it's a fair if slightly cynical summary. My question to you is - do we try to break the logjam or just accept the status quo? My own view is that the democratic path must be tried and tried again, in the knowledge there will be setbacks. I certainly don't think that we should sit around waiting for a benign unelected gent like Prem or Anand to descend from the heavens. At the danger of overgeneralising, I think Thais should beware the cultural agenda to rely too much on a powerful wise presence doing their thinking for them.

 

And as I said in another post, the world may be a harsher place but for most Thais, it's a much better time than 30 years ago since they are generally much more prosperous even though they may not be loud agitators for the new. As Edmund Burke remarked of Britain over two hundred years ago, so it is with Thailand:

 

"Because half a dozen grasshoppers under a fern make the field ring with their importunate chink, whilst thousands of great cattle, reposed beneath the shadow of the British oak, chew the cud and are silent, pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field."

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, cmsally said:

From the articles I found it was moved in 2016 out of the way of the skytrain and now it seems to have plain disappeared.

Well, perhaps your info is more accurate than the OP, but still, i am not overtly worried about the monument, and probably the ordinary Thais aren't either.

[Fex Bluse]

28 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Nonsense. Singapore and China are completely different. Also, as the somewhat tendentious, article you quote argues - China will inevitably become democratic as the people are rapidly becoming more educated. But there is no sign of this at all -quite the reverse Many would not agree that democracy only works well when the people are educated - take India as an example. In any event democracy never "works well" anywhere: it is always imperfect. There is also the classic confusion between "educated" and being able to take rational responsible decisions at the ballot box.

 

Thailand's educational system is certainly mediocre but the country spends more than its neighbors on education. The solution is reform, not to invoke pub talk type conspiracy theories that the elite wants to keep the people down. And your final sentence reveals a lamentable ignorance of the economic history of Thailand over the last 30 years which has seen a huge increase in prosperity and one that has spread through all strata of society - if not that evenly. Does this mean that we are now in broad sunlit uplands? Of course not.Revolutions happen when things are getting better - not when they are stagnant or getting worse.

You seem to be rather passionate about your opinions. I must confess that I am not so passionate about mine. So, I will acknowledge that I can understand your position, but I have to disagree with some portions.

 

If you do not believe that the Thai elite conspires to keep the status quo and social hierarchy in place, I can only ask politely that you consider the 19 coups and what you think they have mostly REALLY been motivated by. Examples of this in Thai society abound. And, anyway, what society in the world, generally, doesn't have rich/powerful who conspire to stay that way by keeping the poor/powerless poor and powerless? It is only a matter of degree in the given society, correct?

 

Also, as to the caste-like system, consider the Thai Sakdina system.

The Last Orientals - The Thai Sakdina System

quote

"21st century Sakdina can be seen as many things; the amount of privilege a person deserves, seeing an expensive car drive by with a police escort leading it rudely gesturing for ordinary drivers to get out the way, the deference shown by a servant to his master or students lowering their heads when they pass a teacher by in the corridor. Sakdina is the division of the society into commoners and higher castes and the realisation that a Tuk Tuk driver, even if he saved his pennies and passed that Degree at Ramkanghang Open University, he would never be accepted in a job vacancy of government officer simply because of his low birth. Sakdina’s origins lie deep in Thai history."

 

As to your argument that Thailand has improved over the past 30 years, I agree. But, you do hint at WHO has benefited disproportionately. And, I agree with that as well. Thai scholars agree as well as seen in this paper by a famous Thai scholar.

 

Industrialization and Inequality in Thailand

quote

"First of all, the outcome of economic development in the last four decades suggests that the Thai state was entirely controlled by the ruling elite; the military, vested-interest groups (mostly ethnic Chinese), and bureaucrats who seem to plunder without providing adequate welfare to their citizens in the terms of education, health care, the provision of pure water supply and adequate sanitation and the like."

Edited January 6, 2019 by Fex Bluse

[SuperTed]

THAILAND REALLY IS NOT THAT BAD

Guys - if you understand what is happening in the rest of Southeast Asia, you would realize Thailand is actually doing quite well.

Agreed the education system is really poor and holding the country back in many ways, but otherwise Thai working class are doing really well compared to working class elsewhere. There is upward mobility, there are enforceable property rights, wealth is much better spread between rich and poor.

A key example - Thais have atrocious road fatality rates because motor vehicle ownership rates per capita are so high. If you look at fatality rates per vehicle, Thailand is normal. Thais have enough spending money so that Mom and Dad and the kids all have bikes. Unfortunately the kids get themselves killed on the bikes (see poor education system above).


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[DrTuner]

4 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

I get that democracy is, in theory, a reasonable form of governing. But, it is not without fundamental flaws. We need only to look to America for an example of how broken it can be. 

Because representational democracy is not the real deal. Direct democracy is possible today thanks to the internet, direct continuous voting would be a piece of cake to implement. Naturally politicians will fight nail and tooth for their stolen privileges, so another revolution somewhere around the world is needed. Today I think Switzerland comes closest to having any tru democracy.

[cmsally]

11 minutes ago, jayboy said:

How is it harsher? For Thais, life has become much better on the whole.

 

If you mean it's harder for the lower income type of foreigner, you might be right.

Sorry my timescales were a bit broad. Life has on the whole become better for a lot of Thais over the last 30 years. But in the earlier years because (of probably the speed of development and availability of communications and information), there were high expectations. For most I don't think those expectations have been met. Increasing population, household debt, inflation and stagnant wages have it seems come as somewhat of a "surprise" to some.

For many I think they (of course) naively expected their general circumstances to improve in parallel to the likes of Tesco, Big C, Siam Paragon etc.

[Fex Bluse]

27 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Pure pub talk - means nothing.

@jayboy

 

Check out my previous response to you, sir. Is that pub talk? Will let you hash out all that and await your responses. Please don't forget that nearly everything I submitted reflect opinions of Thai scholars.  

 

So, if you feel the urge to shoot the messenger, consider who you are aiming at.

 

Cheers

[dcnx]

On 1/5/2019 at 9:25 AM, Eligius said:

I hate to say this, as I love Thailand and the ordinary Thai people - but if I had known many, many years ago what was going to happen inside this beautiful country, I would never have come to live here. And now I have duties and responsibilities that hold me here.

It's so, so sad.

 

 

I know a lot of good people in the same situation.

 

Uprooting and moving is hard and stressful, but if you have people who depend on you, you need to step up and find an alternative. This falls on you.

 

Thailand has been sliding backwards for a while now and anyone with the mental capacity of a 5 year old who isn’t an alcoholic or sex addict can see it. 

 

Protect your family and yourself, Thailand is a lost cause.

 

This is my last year here.

[DrTuner]

28 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Singapore may not be the model for Thailand, though I'm sure most Thais would welcome the world-class standards of healthcare and education that Singapore provides its citizens.

Singapore is not what the shiny powerpoint presentations pumped out by their government claims. https://thehearttruths.com/2014/11/05/this-is-what-is-wrong-in-singapore-now-are-you-willing-to-see-it/

 

Another place where the freedom of the people and the press has been suppressed and comical ali's are spinning tales as tanks roll in the background.

[mauGR1]

22 minutes ago, jayboy said:

How is it harsher? For Thais, life has become much better on the whole.

 

If you mean it's harder for the lower income type of foreigner, you might be right.

Are you sure ? There has been quite an increase on the minimum salary in-let's say- the last 10 years, about 30% more, while ordinary stuff like rice, oil, cigarettes, gasoline has more or less doubled.

I may be wrong, but in Thailand, as in most countries in the world, the rich is getting richer, and the poor is getting poorer.

Nothing to do with democracy, just simple economy.

[dcnx]

1 minute ago, Fex Bluse said:

@jayboy

 

... reflect opinions of Thai scholars.  

 

Not any different than pub talk.

[Odysseus123]

12 minutes ago, SuperTed said:

THAILAND REALLY IS NOT THAT BAD

Guys - if you understand what is happening in the rest of Southeast Asia, you would realize Thailand is actually doing quite well.

Agreed the education system is really poor and holding the country back in many ways, but otherwise Thai working class are doing really well compared to working class elsewhere. There is upward mobility, there are enforceable property rights, wealth is much better spread between rich and poor.

A key example - Thais have atrocious road fatality rates because motor vehicle ownership rates per capita are so high. If you look at fatality rates per vehicle, Thailand is normal. Thais have enough spending money so that Mom and Dad and the kids all have bikes. Unfortunately the kids get themselves killed on the bikes (see poor education system above).


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Oh..ha..ha..ha..

[Fex Bluse]

4 minutes ago, dcnx said:

Not any different than pub talk.

Perhaps, but I am tempted, on occasion, to carefully consider views that seem reasonable. And, in my view, after living in this country on and off for several decades, I think it's reasonable to suspect that there is indeed a conspiracy to keep most Thais fairly dumb and useless save for the toiling away for the elite for a pittance.

[dcnx]

3 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

Good morning.

 

Please pardon me jumping in. I know some of my friends will disagree, but I genuinely question whether Democracy is the best course for Thailand at this stage in their development.

 

There are other successful forms of governing, particularly in Asia. Singapore and China are interesting examples. I would not classify either as Democracies.

 

Anyway, if we can agree that Democracy only works well when voters are educated -- especially on key issues -- we have to then assess the current and expected future state of education in Thailand. An old, but good read on the link between education and civic participation is here: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/glaeser/files/democracy_final_jeg_1.pdf

 

I would suggest that Thais will continue to be very, very poorly educated as having a population of psuedo-serfs, who are encouraged -- actually, required -- to be happy with whatever life gives them, is fundamental to Thai culture. Poor education is central to keeping Thais -- Thai. And, I think the power brokers in the country are more concerned with maintaining the culture than making the country, as a whole and not just for those of high birth, a prosperous country.

You’re spot on. If you’re uneducated AND your vote is for sale, what’s the point of democracy?

 

However, I don’t even know what Thai “culture” is anymore. The longer I stay here the more I don’t see anything worth keeping and instead see a system built for suppressing and exploiting others, cleverly disguised as nationalism and blind obedience to something we’re not permitted to discuss here.

[dcnx]

1 minute ago, Fex Bluse said:

Perhaps, but I am tempted, on occasion, to carefully consider views that seem reasonable. And, in my view, after living in this country on and off for several decades, I think it's reasonable to suspect that there is indeed a conspiracy to keep most Thais fairly dumb and useless save for the toiling away for the elite for a pittance.

I’d agree 100% they are kept dumb on purpose. If you’re not part of the ruling elite, you’re a peasant. And that’s exactly where they want them to stay.

[Odysseus123]

44 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Apparently the monument has been removed to make room for a skytrain station.

I would not think a lot about it, a monument is just a monument, in this case not even beautiful.

Economy (money) is the new god, not only in Thailand, let's not be in denial about it... i would be more upset if the authorities had removed a century-old tree.

Ah..Maugri..you failed to note that I was being sarcastic in a rhetorical sort of way because I am sure that you all expected that the intrepid Thai free press would be on to it in a flash to provide us all with the relevant information.

 

Apparently not in the land of nacht and nebel. (night and fog).

 

Those blamed democracies-they can't even dig a hole in my street without sending everyone a letter,constant emails and (more than likely) the local anti-holers demanding a public meeting.

 

I am not at all reassured by your reassurance...

Edited January 6, 2019 by Odysseus123

[Fex Bluse]

1 minute ago, dcnx said:

You’re spot on. If you’re uneducated AND your vote is for sale, what’s the point of democracy?

 

However, I don’t even know what Thai “culture” is anymore. The longer I stay here the more I don’t see anything worth keeping and instead see a system built for suppressing and exploiting others, cleverly disguised as nationalism and blind obedience to something we’re not permitted to discuss here.

Yes, this is what I see as well. And, as a reasonably egalitarian westerner, I find it impossible to respect such a system (though I understand I must tolerate it and play by its rules in many circumstances).

 

A bit part of me wishes Thais would just "come out" and admit that they have no interest in Democracy and admit how their society really functions, rather than putting on a show for the global community, pretending that they are a modern society. That would be more worthy of respect in my view.

[jayboy]

16 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Are you sure ? There has been quite an increase on the minimum salary in-let's say- the last 10 years, about 30% more, while ordinary stuff like rice, oil, cigarettes, gasoline has more or less doubled.

I may be wrong, but in Thailand, as in most countries in the world, the rich is getting richer, and the poor is getting poorer.

Nothing to do with democracy, just simple economy.

I am sure and your conclusion in the second sentence is plain wrong.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Ah..Maugri..you failed to note that I was being sarcastic in a rhetorical sort of way because I am sure that you all expected that the intrepid Thai free press would be on to it in a flash to provide us all with the relevant information.

 

Apparently not in the land of nacht and nebel. (night and fog).

 

Those blamed democracies-they can't even dig a whole in my street without sending everyone a letter,constant emails and (more than likely) the local anti-holers demanding a public meeting.

 

I am not at all reassured by your reassurance...

..Oops, if you were sarcastic, i missed it completely !

Ok, i'll get my coat, all this democracy monument talking has made me feel craving for some judgement-free contemplation of nature

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, jayboy said:

I am sure and your conclusion in the second sentence is plain wrong.

Fair enough, i will try to keep up to date then.

[jayboy]

22 minutes ago, cmsally said:

Sorry my timescales were a bit broad. Life has on the whole become better for a lot of Thais over the last 30 years. But in the earlier years because (of probably the speed of development and availability of communications and information), there were high expectations. For most I don't think those expectations have been met. Increasing population, household debt, inflation and stagnant wages have it seems come as somewhat of a "surprise" to some.

For many I think they (of course) naively expected their general circumstances to improve in parallel to the likes of Tesco, Big C, Siam Paragon etc.

OK, I see what you mean - essentially that expectations have not been met and that wealth has been spread very unevenly. I would agree with that.

 

But the fact remains the average Thai is much better off than 30 years ago - not just financially but also through better health and even (gulp) education.

 

Doesn't mean that anger won't boil over at some time, of course.