Permits For Starting Cafe In Thailand?

[denby45]

I've been involved in restaurants and resorts for 25 years and the food-service industry is definitely the hardest business to keep out of the red. Margins on your investment are normally in the 3-5% range with the very odd restaurant turning 10%. That's also taking into account that the management is on top of the food, labor and other costs fanatically.

So do your math and ask yourself if you can live with it..

These statements are very disturbing to me, because for a while I have been perusing the Sunbelt offers. I rarely find any businesses listed there which are netting less than 30% profit. Some are even listed at 70% return on investment. One recently was listed and you could get your capital outlay back in only one year. the figures for me look grossly exagerated because I am a firm believer in the fact that if it looks too good to be true then it is 99% sure it is. Your figures actually knocked me for six and if they are for real then I for one will certainly not be spending any of my hard earned bread on any thai business.

den

[sarpesius]

These statements are very disturbing to me, because for a while I have been perusing the Sunbelt offers. I rarely find any businesses listed there which are netting less than 30% profit. Some are even listed at 70% return on investment. One recently was listed and you could get your capital outlay back in only one year. the figures for me look grossly exagerated because I am a firm believer in the fact that if it looks too good to be true then it is 99% sure it is. Your figures actually knocked me for six and if they are for real then I for one will certainly not be spending any of my hard earned bread on any thai business.

den

You may be going through something similar to what I am. I am well aware that a lot of small business offers are actually franchises. This means they are capital intensive. The offering company provides the product, the operational model, the site, the decor, the suppliers (in many cases the offering company itself).

In that situation, location really is your only asset.

But there are only a few districts like that in Thailand and property values would be high so the franchise would cost you more there:

- the patpong / silom area

- various shopping centers in bkk, but certainly not all of them. Remember Sogo tanked.

- Khao San rd.

If you get a location right on the main drag in Mae Sai or Chiang Rai, you might make some money but not much. You will only get the street traffic coming in town for the day.

I would not buy a franchise: it is someone else's business model. I will only take a chance on my own business model and even then only in a pilot project at first. To do otherwise would be a foolish risk.

If you buy a franchise or a business with high fixed operating costs, you cannot improve margin by cutting overhead. You can only increase sales. But with the head company's business model and product and supply chain, you have less control over sales: there is a finite limit to the number of customers you can pull in with a niche gimmick food.

At these chain franchises, like Boulangerie on Silom, you generally go in out of desperation because there is nothing better. Nobody goes into such places because they really like them. You cannot relax and hang out at such places, yet being able to hang out is exactly what tourists are looking for. This is why there is an upper limit on the number of customers you can pull in at these places.

Also you would have to a core network of Thai contacts to shoe-horn you in.

sarpesius

Edited February 26, 2007 by sarpesius

[sarpesius]

I don't remember seeing one restaurant/Cafe in any Country where they only have one employee which is the owner. When I mean restaurant I mean inside a building with 30 seats. (Not a street Hawker). If you go into any restaurant or any business in Thailand, 9 times out of 10 it's not the owner that serves you. Easily 70% or higher chance the owner is not even there.

The more you have workers serving the customer and not the owner, the more impersonal the business is. Then you have absentee ownership. The business becomes impersonal. I have seen tons of cafes go this process. They start with the owner at the counter, then a few months later there is a high school girl who doesn't care. The atmosphere is destroyed and you have no reason to go there anymore except to eat and go.

If you think you can own and manage a restaurant with no help. God bless you. That means you will order the supplies, check the delivery for freshness and quantity, place your advertisement, market the business, do the accounting books all the same time as cooking and taking orders from customers and then finally getting the money when they pay the bill. Even if you could manage it for an hour. How bout at peak time... how much in lost revenue as customers are waiting to place an order( some will just walk away).

Sure let them walk away, because if I am so busy I cannot serve them, the my business model is a success. If that happens, THEN I will be ready to hire workers.

How long before you burn out? No Holidays or even one day off without closing the business.

You avoid burning out by taking it easy, no matter what you do. If I am the only person responsible, I can just shut the place down and take a trip whenever I want to. You can do that in a tourist environment because your customer base is always renewed.

Once again Thailand is a different business model. Its rent that is the biggest expense item, not labor. Don't be afraid of labor costs. These partners are your biggest asset. They can hand out fliers and market the business, even if the restaurant is not busy.

According to what you have said, I will be forced to hire them, but the owner can pass out flyers better than any worker can.

sarpesius

[Sunbelt Asia]

I've been involved in restaurants and resorts for 25 years and the food-service industry is definitely the hardest business to keep out of the red. Margins on your investment are normally in the 3-5% range with the very odd restaurant turning 10%. That's also taking into account that the management is on top of the food, labor and other costs fanatically.

So do your math and ask yourself if you can live with it..

These statements are very disturbing to me, because for a while I have been perusing the Sunbelt offers. I rarely find any businesses listed there which are netting less than 30% profit. Some are even listed at 70% return on investment. One recently was listed and you could get your capital outlay back in only one year. the figures for me look grossly exagerated because I am a firm believer in the fact that if it looks too good to be true then it is 99% sure it is. Your figures actually knocked me for six and if they are for real then I for one will certainly not be spending any of my hard earned bread on any thai business.

den

If you have got to the stage of signing a confidentiality agreement, then you certainly saw a warning letter from us that has skulls and crossbows on top of it, that said “Be aware, you need to check all information provided by the Seller”, and that “We have not done any due diligence to verify”.

Saying that, a number of business buyers have done their own due diligence with their own accounting and legal team, and have given the business approval. Others have found that, in their opinion, the financials were not accurate. The business due diligence stage then stopped and they looked at another business to do due diligence on.

Do some businesses make 30% owners discretionary cash from the gross sales? The Thai Revenue Dept. research has found that, for restaurants, the standard net profit is 30% of gross sales. Because of this they do not require expenses for a Sole Proprietorship to be kept, if they use 70% as the deduction rate from gross sales and declare 30% net profits.

I feel the standard 30% net profit is high but certainly we have restaurants that we own that are make around 20%. We have others that do much less but are profitable.

As for business selling prices, most sell for around 2.5 times cash flow. Others sell for five times and even some at less than one times cash flow. It just depends on the Seller.

Difference between ROI and the percentage of owner’s discretionary cash and gross sales (margins):

For an example ROI: If you invest one million baht and the business has owners discretionary cash of 400,000 baht, then this return on investment would be 40% per year.

For an example of margins that the poster was talking about: In order for this business to make 400,000 baht, the annual sales had to be 4,000,000 baht. The owner’s discretionary cash margin would then be 10%. If I was the owner and wanted to get the net margin down lower, and pay less corporate tax, I would increase my salary, use depreciation write offs, interest write offs, etc.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[woodyleonhard]

sarpesius -

I don't claim to know anything about starting a restaurant in Bangkok, but in Phuket it was difficult and time-consuming. (I'm the "Khun Woody" mentioned in an earlier post.)

I write computer books (see AskWoody). Five years ago my girlfriend, Add, and I started Khun Woody's Bakery, because the food available in Starbucks and other coffee shops on the island was dreadful. We now supply nearly all of the upscale coffee shops in Phuket, several restaurants, hotels, and the like. Two-and-a-half years ago we started the Sandwich Shoppe in Patong. Fifteen employees now, and growing fast. I'm looking for a second retail location, and thinking about franchising. So, yes, it is possible to start a successful restaurant in Thailand.

The trick is simple - and devilishly difficult: Outstanding staff. Great food.

You need both.

It took six months for my first work permit, and it was painful. I got the permit primarily for computer work, but there was a clause that let me open a bakery. That's got me out of the chicken-and-egg situation you describe, where you have to have a business to get a work permit, and you have to have a work permit to run a business. As far as I know, the advice you're getting from Sunbelt is 100% spot-on.

Beyond the work permit...

Starting a business in Phuket was full of pitfalls, hidden problems, frustrations, scams, and lots of hair-pulling. We never would've made it without Add's experience as manager of Starbucks Patong.

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't even think of starting a pilot project until you find a Thai national who's talented and hard-working, and whom you can trust implicitly. Every farang investor or business owner needs a superb Thai manager. If you don't have a great Thai manager, you'll end up with high school girls behind the counter who don't care, just as you fear. You can't make it alone. Guaranteed. Especially in Thailand. You'll get called away from the shop for reasons you can't even begin to imagine at this point - and you will have to go. Better to have trained, capable, smiling staff doing all the work, all the time. It's good for them. It's good for you.

Don't plan on closing up shop for a day or two with nobody noticing because you're in a tourist area. Phuket's a tourist town, and we get plenty of tourists at the Sandwich Shoppe. But our core business - the people who keep the doors open - are expats and long-term tourists. Friends. Much of our walk-in traffic comes via word of mouth: treat customers well, and they'll be your best sales force.

As for great food... Phuket is littered with restaurants that don't make it. Most of them make/made good food. Few of them showed a real passion for the kind of food they serve.

The franchise chains are fine, as far as they go - Burger King makes a fair hamburger; Subway makes a decent sandwich, and so on. But Phuket is sophisticated enough that people here (both farang and khon Thai) know the difference between a Burger King burger and a really good burger, or a Subway sandwich and an outstanding sandwich. They know that Au Bon Pain or New York Deli don't serve real bagels, that McDonald's shakes don't have any ice cream, and that stringy white stuff on Pizza Company pizzas tastes like, well, stringy white stuff.

I, personally, am passionate about the kind of food I grew up with. That's what we serve. I can't make an H&H bagel or a Wolferman's English Muffin, but I can come close. Our sourdough starter comes from San Francisco. Our Toolhouse Cookies use Nestle chocolate chips, the way the cookie gods intended. Our sausage would make Jimmy Dean envious, maple syrup tastes like maple syrup, waffles and Death By Chocolate Cake come from my mom's old recipes. And so on. Add and I spent years looking for "authentic" food in Thailand, or figuring out a way to make it here.

Phuket customers are very sophisticated, and I suspect Bangkok's are similar. Our customers know good food. They know good service. Give your customers both.

Hope that helps. Your attitude counts a lot.

[Sunbelt Asia]

sarpesius -

I don't claim to know anything about starting a restaurant in Bangkok, but in Phuket it was difficult and time-consuming. (I'm the "Khun Woody" mentioned in an earlier post.)

I write computer books (see AskWoody). Five years ago my girlfriend, Add, and I started Khun Woody's Bakery, because the food available in Starbucks and other coffee shops on the island was dreadful. We now supply nearly all of the upscale coffee shops in Phuket, several restaurants, hotels, and the like. Two-and-a-half years ago we started the Sandwich Shoppe in Patong. Fifteen employees now, and growing fast. I'm looking for a second retail location, and thinking about franchising. So, yes, it is possible to start a successful restaurant in Thailand.

The trick is simple - and devilishly difficult: Outstanding staff. Great food.

You need both.

It took six months for my first work permit, and it was painful. I got the permit primarily for computer work, but there was a clause that let me open a bakery. That's got me out of the chicken-and-egg situation you describe, where you have to have a business to get a work permit, and you have to have a work permit to run a business. As far as I know, the advice you're getting from Sunbelt is 100% spot-on.

Beyond the work permit...

Starting a business in Phuket was full of pitfalls, hidden problems, frustrations, scams, and lots of hair-pulling. We never would've made it without Add's experience as manager of Starbucks Patong.

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't even think of starting a pilot project until you find a Thai national who's talented and hard-working, and whom you can trust implicitly. Every farang investor or business owner needs a superb Thai manager. If you don't have a great Thai manager, you'll end up with high school girls behind the counter who don't care, just as you fear. You can't make it alone. Guaranteed. Especially in Thailand. You'll get called away from the shop for reasons you can't even begin to imagine at this point - and you will have to go. Better to have trained, capable, smiling staff doing all the work, all the time. It's good for them. It's good for you.

Don't plan on closing up shop for a day or two with nobody noticing because you're in a tourist area. Phuket's a tourist town, and we get plenty of tourists at the Sandwich Shoppe. But our core business - the people who keep the doors open - are expats and long-term tourists. Friends. Much of our walk-in traffic comes via word of mouth: treat customers well, and they'll be your best sales force.

As for great food... Phuket is littered with restaurants that don't make it. Most of them make/made good food. Few of them showed a real passion for the kind of food they serve.

The franchise chains are fine, as far as they go - Burger King makes a fair hamburger; Subway makes a decent sandwich, and so on. But Phuket is sophisticated enough that people here (both farang and khon Thai) know the difference between a Burger King burger and a really good burger, or a Subway sandwich and an outstanding sandwich. They know that Au Bon Pain or New York Deli don't serve real bagels, that McDonald's shakes don't have any ice cream, and that stringy white stuff on Pizza Company pizzas tastes like, well, stringy white stuff.

I, personally, am passionate about the kind of food I grew up with. That's what we serve. I can't make an H&H bagel or a Wolferman's English Muffin, but I can come close. Our sourdough starter comes from San Francisco. Our Toolhouse Cookies use Nestle chocolate chips, the way the cookie gods intended. Our sausage would make Jimmy Dean envious, maple syrup tastes like maple syrup, waffles and Death By Chocolate Cake come from my mom's old recipes. And so on. Add and I spent years looking for "authentic" food in Thailand, or figuring out a way to make it here.

Phuket customers are very sophisticated, and I suspect Bangkok's are similar. Our customers know good food. They know good service. Give your customers both.

Hope that helps. Your attitude counts a lot.

Bingo! You get it!

Passion/Attitude

Great Product

Great Service

Hard work.

Great Staff

Good Partner/Mgr. I also would of pulled my hair out a long time ago, if it wasn't for my wife. The CEO of CP Group at our wedding said "Naravadee is a national treasure of Thailand". He was 100% correct.

This is what makes a good business. Guess what? This will work in Thailand but also this works in Germany, South Africa, Singapore or any other country.

A successful entrepreneur will make it any country.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[benw10]

hi

this guy is so right

but i must add the 3 l's of location location location

i thought id done it all pretty well

good chef

good staff

international bistro food in a lovely small restaurant

reasonable prices

excellent response from customers and a nice review in GURU

but ground work lacked depth i thought my location was good (sukhumvit so1 22 opposite imperial queens park) could not have been more wrong.

the rent is double the norm, i trusted the word of former owners.

we have grown in 4 months from 37 to 67 percent of costs, but this is not fast enough growth to cover the rent

im about to be one of the large group of people who flush away a lot of money.

be absolutely sure of all external influences not just your determination and self belief,it aint enough

so many blame thailand when they fail, best to spend 3 months here getting to know the place before you invest a penny, fools rush in where others fear to tread.

so www.greandinebkk.com is now a eulogy rather than the start of a promotional website.

sarpesius -

I don't claim to know anything about starting a restaurant in Bangkok, but in Phuket it was difficult and time-consuming. (I'm the "Khun Woody" mentioned in an earlier post.)

I write computer books (see AskWoody). Five years ago my girlfriend, Add, and I started Khun Woody's Bakery, because the food available in Starbucks and other coffee shops on the island was dreadful. We now supply nearly all of the upscale coffee shops in Phuket, several restaurants, hotels, and the like. Two-and-a-half years ago we started the Sandwich Shoppe in Patong. Fifteen employees now, and growing fast. I'm looking for a second retail location, and thinking about franchising. So, yes, it is possible to start a successful restaurant in Thailand.

The trick is simple - and devilishly difficult: Outstanding staff. Great food.

You need both.

It took six months for my first work permit, and it was painful. I got the permit primarily for computer work, but there was a clause that let me open a bakery. That's got me out of the chicken-and-egg situation you describe, where you have to have a business to get a work permit, and you have to have a work permit to run a business. As far as I know, the advice you're getting from Sunbelt is 100% spot-on.

Beyond the work permit...

Starting a business in Phuket was full of pitfalls, hidden problems, frustrations, scams, and lots of hair-pulling. We never would've made it without Add's experience as manager of Starbucks Patong.

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't even think of starting a pilot project until you find a Thai national who's talented and hard-working, and whom you can trust implicitly. Every farang investor or business owner needs a superb Thai manager. If you don't have a great Thai manager, you'll end up with high school girls behind the counter who don't care, just as you fear. You can't make it alone. Guaranteed. Especially in Thailand. You'll get called away from the shop for reasons you can't even begin to imagine at this point - and you will have to go. Better to have trained, capable, smiling staff doing all the work, all the time. It's good for them. It's good for you.

Don't plan on closing up shop for a day or two with nobody noticing because you're in a tourist area. Phuket's a tourist town, and we get plenty of tourists at the Sandwich Shoppe. But our core business - the people who keep the doors open - are expats and long-term tourists. Friends. Much of our walk-in traffic comes via word of mouth: treat customers well, and they'll be your best sales force.

As for great food... Phuket is littered with restaurants that don't make it. Most of them make/made good food. Few of them showed a real passion for the kind of food they serve.

The franchise chains are fine, as far as they go - Burger King makes a fair hamburger; Subway makes a decent sandwich, and so on. But Phuket is sophisticated enough that people here (both farang and khon Thai) know the difference between a Burger King burger and a really good burger, or a Subway sandwich and an outstanding sandwich. They know that Au Bon Pain or New York Deli don't serve real bagels, that McDonald's shakes don't have any ice cream, and that stringy white stuff on Pizza Company pizzas tastes like, well, stringy white stuff.

I, personally, am passionate about the kind of food I grew up with. That's what we serve. I can't make an H&H bagel or a Wolferman's English Muffin, but I can come close. Our sourdough starter comes from San Francisco. Our Toolhouse Cookies use Nestle chocolate chips, the way the cookie gods intended. Our sausage would make Jimmy Dean envious, maple syrup tastes like maple syrup, waffles and Death By Chocolate Cake come from my mom's old recipes. And so on. Add and I spent years looking for "authentic" food in Thailand, or figuring out a way to make it here.

Phuket customers are very sophisticated, and I suspect Bangkok's are similar. Our customers know good food. They know good service. Give your customers both.

Hope that helps. Your attitude counts a lot.

[Sunbelt Asia]

hi

this guy is so right

but i must add the 3 l's of location location location

i thought id done it all pretty well

good chef

good staff

international bistro food in a lovely small restaurant

reasonable prices

excellent response from customers and a nice review in GURU

but ground work lacked depth i thought my location was good (sukhumvit so1 22 opposite imperial queens park) could not have been more wrong.

the rent is double the norm, i trusted the word of former owners.

we have grown in 4 months from 37 to 67 percent of costs, but this is not fast enough growth to cover the rent

im about to be one of the large group of people who flush away a lot of money.

be absolutely sure of all external influences not just your determination and self belief,it aint enough

so many blame thailand when they fail, best to spend 3 months here getting to know the place before you invest a penny, fools rush in where others fear to tread.

so www.greandinebkk.com is now a eulogy rather than the start of a promotional website.

Sorry to hear, the expenses are so high. Rent is the biggest expense at many locations in Bangkok.

Your website does not seem to come up. I think I know your location. Is this location 60 sq.m and you pay 84,000 Baht rent?

Not sure why, Soi 22 is such a tough street for many businesses. You would think with the Imperial Queens Park Hotel being the largest hotel in Bangkok, it would be a good location. Some say the business changed around three years ago when the US military stopped staying there. It may change in a couple years when Washington Square is bulldozed down and Central puts up another Mall/ Hotel.

Right now, your business is a destination location and it will take time to develop. I’ll stop by and eat there. I like finding “gems” and every once in awhile I can tell other people about " This great little place"

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Prakanong]

Excellent thread guys - I have learned a lot!

Funnily enough I also used Askwoody's site last year to find the solution to an Excel problem

[RAZZELL]

You may be going through something similar to what I am. I am well aware that a lot of small business offers are actually franchises. This means they are capital intensive. The offering company provides the product, the operational model, the site, the decor, the suppliers (in many cases the offering company itself).

I would not buy a franchise: it is someone else's business model. I will only take a chance on my own business model and even then only in a pilot project at first. To do otherwise would be a foolish risk.

A business model that "works" is surely better than one doesn't?

RAZZ

[smilingjoe]

Hokey Smokes! Where is Sunrise Tacos located??? Ive been wanting a gourmet burrito ever since I left California! Oh how I long for the taste of a real torilla!

[Sunbelt Asia]

Hokey Smokes! Where is Sunrise Tacos located??? Ive been wanting a gourmet burrito ever since I left California! Oh how I long for the taste of a real torilla!

Others feel like you! . You know what I missed most? The chance to have a burrito at noon or at 3 o’ clock in the morning.

Sunrise Tacos advantage will be the following.... convenience of getting a taco or burrito in two minutes, open 24 hours, great location for the new quick-casual restaurant in the lower Sukumvit area ( Sulhumvit Rd between Soi 12 and Soi 14, near the skytrain, near the subway, free parking for two hours, Free delivery.

Second improvement on other Mexican restaurants will be just because food is served fast and is also convenient is no reason you can't have a great meal. The premium ingredients will made fresh in front of you to make your meal. You will be the conductor of the team making your version of the perfect burrito. What will it be? The popular steak burrito or a vegetarian burrito? Or maybe two crispy barbacoa tacos with one soft chicken taco? The sour cream is a must!

The third plus will be the atmosphere which will happen when you see the grill, smell the aroma of corn tortillas and spices and hear the buzz of excitement with other people in the store.

The forth benefit will be the “Margarita by the Yard”, which is served in a 36 inch long, 800 milliliters glass. This is a souvenir glass that will remind them why in Bangkok some people never sleep.

The best advantage will be the value. The price will be more than fair for the portion of pure bliss you will get.

This restaurant soft opening will be April 1st with the Grand Opening April 15th.

Hope to see you there!

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[sarpesius]

A business model that "works" is surely better than one doesn't?

RAZZ

That is why you have to spend years "on the ground" in thailand.

This tells you what types of businesses fail.

Anybody who has a pile of money but just comes to Thailand for a few weeks or even a few months without doing a serious study of conditions, especially the unwritten rules, is usually throwing money away.

To formulate the business model, a person needs to know what their target market wants. This is another of the big mistakes of foreigners in Thailand. They only think about running the business -- location, costs, product, etc.--- but not about making a business according to the habits of a particular market.

This is why most the restaurants in Thailand -- foreign and Thai -- have exactly the same floor plan. They don't think about helping the customer to really have a good time.

sarpesius

Edited February 26, 2007 by sarpesius

[RAZZELL]

A business model that "works" is surely better than one doesn't?

RAZZ

That is why you have to spend years "on the ground" in thailand.

This tells you what types of businesses fail.

Anybody who has a pile of money but just comes to Thailand for a few weeks or even a few months without doing a serious study of conditions, especially the unwritten rules, is usually throwing money away.

To formulate the business model, a person needs to know what their target market wants. This is another of the big mistakes of foreigners in Thailand. They only think about running the business -- location, costs, product, etc.--- but not about making a business according to the habits of a particular market.

This is why most the restaurants in Thailand -- foreign and Thai -- have exactly the same floor plan. They don't think about helping the customer to really have a good time.

sarpesius

With all due respect...I think you're talking rubbish....Have you been reading too many "How to be a Millionaire" books??? :D

"An education (sic in law), is at best an excellent foundation, at worst a naive form of arrogance..."

Mark H. McCormack, founder of IMG

(Quote from, "What they don't teach you at Harvard Business School")

RAZZ

[roamer]

A business model that "works" is surely better than one doesn't?

RAZZ

That is why you have to spend years "on the ground" in thailand.

This tells you what types of businesses fail.

Anybody who has a pile of money but just comes to Thailand for a few weeks or even a few months without doing a serious study of conditions, especially the unwritten rules, is usually throwing money away.

To formulate the business model, a person needs to know what their target market wants. This is another of the big mistakes of foreigners in Thailand. They only think about running the business -- location, costs, product, etc.--- but not about making a business according to the habits of a particular market.

This is why most the restaurants in Thailand -- foreign and Thai -- have exactly the same floor plan. They don't think about helping the customer to really have a good time.

sarpesius

_{With all due respect...I think you're talking rubbish....Have you been reading too many "How to be a Millionaire" books??? :D}

"An education (sic in law), is at best an excellent foundation, at worst a naive form of arrogance..."

Mark H. McCormack, founder of IMG

(Quote from, "What they don't teach you at Harvard Business School")

RAZZ

Yup, think you hit the nail on the head there Razz.

[Cyberstar]

Yes, clearly this guy, sarpesius, haven't red any books on the practical aspects of running a "foodserving business". The only one-person such thing I can think of is the already wellproven business model of a (preferably) motorized street stall where the owner prepares those 3-7 ingredients needed for 1-2 dishes in the morning and serves it on disposals - please pay when ordering.

For proving any kind of business model by running the pilot project single handedly - as a minimum think in terms of a business field that doesn't require a person to attend carefully - and undisturbed - to the steak that just has been placed on the frying pan.

And while one person is attending that sizzling porksteak - who is supposed to make the salad and who is supposed to attend to the chicken steak the other partee of the couple has ordered. Not to mention the mango smoothie and melon frost also ordered by that one single table? ... Oh, oh, oh - more (potential) customers coming in through the door... The only thing one can prove by running a foodserving business alone is that single handed run food serving businesses are failures ...

Edited February 27, 2007 by Cyberstar

[sarpesius]

The only one-person such thing I can think of is the already wellproven business model of a (preferably) motorized street stall where the owner prepares those 3-7 ingredients needed for 1-2 dishes in the morning and serves it on disposals - please pay when ordering.

For proving any kind of business model by running the pilot project single handedly - as a minimum think in terms of a business field that doesn't require a person to attend carefully - and undisturbed - to the steak that just has been placed on the frying pan.

And while one person is attending that sizzling porksteak - who is supposed to make the salad and who is supposed to attend to the chicken steak the other partee of the couple has ordered. Not to mention the mango smoothie and melon frost also ordered by that one single table? ... Oh, oh, oh - more (potential) customers coming in through the door... The only thing one can prove by running a foodserving business alone is that single handed run food serving businesses are failures ...

I have seen one- or two-person restaurants being run all over the world.

If any of you have gone to India, you may notice the standard business model there: the owner sets it up and gets it going. Then after it gets going, he hires one or two people. One person is the front room waiter, the second person is back in the kitchen cooking and washing dishes. This is why you see so many restaurants in India are actually just being run by two teenage boys.

Anyone who has been to Mahabaliburam, Tamil Nadu, India may remember the small cafe in the village section of town. It is run by the owner -- one man. The only product is tea and coffee.

This shows that the way to run a one-person operation is not a full service food RESTAURANT but a CAFE with a limited menu. You can serve just two items. If you can keep overhead down, you make money on volume by selling cheap items and providing an environment that the target market wants.

sarpesius

Edited February 27, 2007 by sarpesius

[RAZZELL]

Why bother asking questions, when you appear to know all the answers already?

All I can say is good luck

RAZZ

[hotgeekus]

The problem in the foodservice industry is simple. Restaurant industry is one of the only industries where you have someone who has a little money and thinks it can turn into gold fast. Restaurant business is like any other business, you have to know what you are doing and if not, hire a professional to run it. Of course, there are tons of 'shoemakers' who act like they know what they are doing but are good at one thing, losing your money.

If you want a successful foodservice business here or anywhere, spend the money and hire someone who you can trust, with experience, it will cost you money, but be well spent. Even better, offer a small percentage of the business then you will for sure have someone who looks out for your interests.

I make good money working in my current job. Of course, I make other people rich, with the topside of returns that you talk about. Just remember, pay someone who knows what they are doing. If the coffee supplier starts screwing you, chances are I've seen the scam. If the liquor supplier starts to raise the prices, chances are, I've seen the scam. If you buy local beef, plan on braising it a long, long time, as it is TOUGH. Be smart when you make your menu, use local products (ie pork, local lettuces, local but low quality cheeses) and keep away from imported things, you will make money.

But most importantly, start with enough money. First thing when it goes bad, don't cut the air con or the quality. People know when the writing is on the wall. If you shut early, they will remember, if you use local beef, trust me, they will know....

[sarpesius]

.... If the coffee supplier starts screwing you, chances are I've seen the scam. If the liquor supplier starts to raise the prices, chances are, I've seen the scam. If you buy local beef, plan on braising it a long, long time, as it is TOUGH. Be smart when you make your menu, use local products (ie pork, local lettuces, local but low quality cheeses) and keep away from imported things, you will make money.

But most importantly, start with enough money. First thing when it goes bad, don't cut the air con or the quality. People know when the writing is on the wall. If you shut early, they will remember, if you use local beef, trust me, they will know....

I don't think we are on the same page here, since I explained that I am using a different business model.

I would not be using beef or lettuce, only tea and coffee. I would not even use a "supplier" but buy my coffee myself retail. I would negotiate a discount on volume. If the quality dropped intolerably, I would switch outlets.

I would not even use aircon. Even in India you don't need aircon if the environment is right. You don't even need lights.

sarpesius

[RAZZELL]

I don't think we are on the same page here, since I explained that I am using a different business model.

I would not even use aircon. Even in India you don't need aircon if the environment is right. You don't even need lights.

sarpesius

I don't know about same page, I think you're on a different planet...

And what business model is it you'll be using? I haven't got a clue model...

This has got to be a wind-up???

Like I said, good luck

RAZZ

Edited February 28, 2007 by RAZZELL

[hotgeekus]

whatever you decide, good luck....

But watch out with coffee, it is always a tricky one. You buy coffee retail you are already losing.

Your coffee machine will not be 'bulk' trust me. A one person operation will not be getting you any discounts, but good luck.

Any foodservice professional knows that to get good coffee at a good price, you sign a contract, get the machines for free, service as a result, in exchange for the coffee price which you negotiate.

Regarding your 'business model', my friend go ahead....

Regarding lettuce etc, I was referring to the taco place.

In all, there is money to be made everywhere, but I don't claim to be an expert on nuclear reactors, as I would never build one. One thing I do know about, is the foodservice business. And weather you are in Thailand, England, Germany, USA, all run the same, trust me, I have been there doing it for the last 15 years...

[smartecosse]

I don't think we are on the same page here, since I explained that I am using a different business model.

I would not even use aircon. Even in India you don't need aircon if the environment is right. You don't even need lights.

sarpesius

I don't know about same page, I think you're on a different planet...

And what business model is it you'll be using? I haven't got a clue model...

This has got to be a wind-up???

Like I said, good luck

RAZZ

that about sums up the "top secret" business model that once the pilot stage is iver is going to net the OP a veritable fortune.

Don't let the secret out the bag but apparently the OP wil be opening a coffee shop that is so unique he will be able to buy at retail prices and still make money

Anyway if its a good as he reckons I'm up for taking a franchise ot two of it. After all I will have quite a bit of money to invest shortly as I have just sent all my personal & banking details to some unfortunate chap in Nigeria whose father had a problem with the old regime. Its amazing the amount of money he is gonna put in my account ................

[benw10]

thankyou

soi 22 is a place which if all goes well i,n thainland in general, and the current condo developments go ahead ,in 3 years time it could be very good.

please come and eat, though not sure how long we have left may only be till march 5th.

sorry about access to site, usually goes strait and but on occasion seems to be hard to find, its incomplete due to the current situation re business.

thanks for reply

ben at Grenadine

hi

this guy is so right

but i must add the 3 l's of location location location

i thought id done it all pretty well

good chef

good staff

international bistro food in a lovely small restaurant

reasonable prices

excellent response from customers and a nice review in GURU

but ground work lacked depth i thought my location was good (sukhumvit so1 22 opposite imperial queens park) could not have been more wrong.

the rent is double the norm, i trusted the word of former owners.

we have grown in 4 months from 37 to 67 percent of costs, but this is not fast enough growth to cover the rent

im about to be one of the large group of people who flush away a lot of money.

be absolutely sure of all external influences not just your determination and self belief,it aint enough

so many blame thailand when they fail, best to spend 3 months here getting to know the place before you invest a penny, fools rush in where others fear to tread.

so www.greandinebkk.com is now a eulogy rather than the start of a promotional website.

Sorry to hear, the expenses are so high. Rent is the biggest expense at many locations in Bangkok.

Your website does not seem to come up. I think I know your location. Is this location 60 sq.m and you pay 84,000 Baht rent?

Not sure why, Soi 22 is such a tough street for many businesses. You would think with the Imperial Queens Park Hotel being the largest hotel in Bangkok, it would be a good location. Some say the business changed around three years ago when the US military stopped staying there. It may change in a couple years when Washington Square is bulldozed down and Central puts up another Mall/ Hotel.

Right now, your business is a destination location and it will take time to develop. I’ll stop by and eat there. I like finding “gems” and every once in awhile I can tell other people about " This great little place"

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[sarpesius]

But watch out with coffee, it is always a tricky one. You buy coffee retail you are already losing.

Can you provide figures for that IN THAILAND, if you don't mind? If the business model takes off, you can negotiate volume discounts on coffee. Furthermore, the definition of good coffee depends on the function of the venue. Not everyone wants gourmet coffee.

Your coffee machine will not be 'bulk' trust me. A one person operation will not be getting you any discounts, but good luck.

I don't quite understand this point. There are many ways to make coffee. Do you mean percolator or drip method (forget espresso machine)? The old fashioned Thai method used a cloth bag.

If you mean the grinder, the coffee dealer can grind it.

Any foodservice professional knows that to get good coffee at a good price, you sign a contract, get the machines for free, service as a result, in exchange for the coffee price which you negotiate.

Yes, this is how you MIGHT do it for a business model assuming a minimum volume of sales. But, as most of us know by now, Thailand is a graveyard of failed restaurants whose farang owners did not test out the business model before setting up.

Maybe you remember that nice-looking Italian restaurant on Thapae road in Chiang Mai, not far from the river. Its always empty and not a farang owner to be seen. Classic case of doing a restaurant by the book and still not succeeding.

sarpesius

Edited March 1, 2007 by sarpesius

[RAZZELL]

I look forward to the grand opening of the no-aircon, no-gourmet coffee, (no customers) coffee shop

And I will willingly come in and eat a large slice of humble pie... oh...and coffee, if you ever get this off the ground.

Regards, and all the best

RAZZ

[hotgeekus]

While I surf this site to assist someone with their TV, to which I am not an expert, and appreciate the advise and help offered here, this specific thread is something different.

Weather you choose to or not is fine with me, however, that I am a professional and know what I am talking about regarding this must simply be accepted by you. If it is not, don't worry, I don't feel a threat, as I have a great life in Thailand doing what I do.....

From your message, and this is the last I will comment on it as it is somewhat feudal..

Buying anything retail is not smart business. If you call a coffee company, they will judge your business and give you free machines based on you using their product, at the price you negotiate. Of course, if you do it 'housewife' style, then you get 'housewife product' which is not a negative statement. However, if you have plans of taking over Sukomvit, BKK, the world with your 'business model' you better start to sharpen that pencil because you have a business idea that holds water like a sieve.

One person shop, if you use 5 kg a day, that is the machine running day and night, meaning about 825 kg a year. If I go to that same supplier with my yearly useage of 54,000 kg, I will get more leverage, which is important, as coffee is a commodity, in fact, one one fixed price you can not control unless you lock it in

Your point of Thailand being a graveyard of failed restaurants of farang business owners is simply not true. Restaurant industry does not prejudge. The industry screws the local as much as the farang. The point you are making is the same as I am making. You have someone who has no clue how to run a restaurant, spending money and loosing it because he does not have any restaurant experience.

To running a restaurant there is no book, there is something called luck, such as opening a cafe and hoping that Starbucks doesn't open next door. No matter what hole you put a cafe, if there is a starbucks next to you, you WILL go broke, as they suck the life out of anything due ONLY to their brand identity, no matter if it is a crap blend of coffee from the plantation that they own in Colombia to keep their costs down.

Sorry my friend, I hope you have the luck, because even I would need it if I went in alone, but not as much as you, it seems....

Should anyone wish to contact me further on this subject, please PM me, as this is the last I will write on this thread regarding this subject.

[solo siam]

.... If the coffee supplier starts screwing you, chances are I've seen the scam. If the liquor supplier starts to raise the prices, chances are, I've seen the scam. If you buy local beef, plan on braising it a long, long time, as it is TOUGH. Be smart when you make your menu, use local products (ie pork, local lettuces, local but low quality cheeses) and keep away from imported things, you will make money.

But most importantly, start with enough money. First thing when it goes bad, don't cut the air con or the quality. People know when the writing is on the wall. If you shut early, they will remember, if you use local beef, trust me, they will know....

I don't think we are on the same page here, since I explained that I am using a different business model.

I would not be using beef or lettuce, only tea and coffee. I would not even use a "supplier" but buy my coffee myself retail. I would negotiate a discount on volume. If the quality dropped intolerably, I would switch outlets.

I would not even use aircon. Even in India you don't need aircon if the environment is right. You don't even need lights.

sarpesius

So you are simply selling hot water in a place with no lights or air-con, how on earth will you compete with the countless other famous brands who have an established record, full food menu, wifi internet etc... or the Thai's who could work the same operation and be happy with $5 profit a day.

[cclub75]

Owning a business is not easy and it certainly is not for everyone. I’m an owner/ shareholder of twenty different restaurants in Thailand.

Off topic... but

How can you "mix" -and be proud of- a business brooker activity with the ownership of businesses ?

There could be a conflict of interests...

Because actually, you are listing restaurant businesses to sale.

So, do we have to understand that you have bought the good deals, before to list them publically, and that the restaurants that are listed are... crap ?

"Sunbelt Business Brooker" is a cover to dig the good deals for "Sunbelt Investor" ?

[RAZZELL]

Owning a business is not easy and it certainly is not for everyone. I’m an owner/ shareholder of twenty different restaurants in Thailand.

Off topic... but

How can you "mix" -and be proud of- a business brooker activity with the ownership of businesses ?

There could be a conflict of interests...

Because actually, you are listing restaurant businesses to sale.

So, do we have to understand that you have bought the good deals, before to list them publically, and that the restaurants that are listed are... crap ?

"Sunbelt Business Brooker" is a cover to dig the good deals for "Sunbelt Investor" ?

Nice conspiracy theory...But I think you'll find Sunbelt owns franchises

Although, I'm sure if a good location came up

RAZZ