Thai Elite visa tax issues

[humbug]

6 hours ago, Firefan said:

There are a couple of issues here; first of all, the original intention of the (lifetime) Thai Elite visa, was for rich tourists (golfers Etc.) to easy come and go in and out of Thailand - it was NOT (originally at least) intended for long stays - and I believe that one even had to leave the country (not just do 90 day reports) every 3 months. Therefore a work permit can not be connected still today - as many of the legalities behind establishing the visa have NOT been changed. 

 

A tax ID is possible on other long term/non work related visas(extensions). I know several retirees getting tax refunds on their Thai dividend and interest income using that, only reason I see for it NOT being possible on the Thai Elite is what I mentioned above; the Thai Elite is STILL(the laws behind it) considered a (fancy) "tourist visa" - and I do not think one can get a tax ID on a tourist visa.

 

Also; if day trading ones own account/money is considered work, when is my (own) money management NOT considered work? When I check my pension account quarterly?, when I sell some stocks monthly/annually to rebalance my portfolio? When my Thai or foreign time deposit expire and I research and buy into a new time deposit? When I sell a stock, I no longer like? None of those are work. I simply manage my private money (even if trade more often).

 

Finally; it is true that foreign banks/institutions are now asking for for foreign tax ID numbers. FACTA and other new rules require them to ask for it, and yes; they can decide to close or limit functionalities until it is supplied.

 

Cheers! 

 

  

i have the original one like most visas, marriage,retirement and elite that allow to stay as stated as virtual long term tourists. The original never changed ftom extending every 90 days but the newer ones have up to 12 month extensions. If you wish to work etc or set up a company you have to cancel the elite visa and obtain the work permit visa process but keep in the programme in case you want to quit work/company and go back to being a long term tourist.

 

This is the point the op is blatantly misquoting the elite visa to be some work permit/permanent residence visa and pay taxes etc. If i did this on a retirement/marriage thread the whole thread would vanish as i am proposing something highly illegal. Why the hell this visa is allowed to be trashed in this way is disgusting when we know full well authorities check this site. 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by humbug

[humbug]

11 minutes ago, ukrules said:

A wum ? What is a wum ?

haha wind up merchant

 

 

[BigT73]

13 minutes ago, humbug said:

haha wind up merchant

 

 

After google searching I was leaning to 'WhatsUpMoms' on youtube.

[stat]

the aeoi does not demand a tax id from countries that does not automatically distribute them i.e. Thailand. If you tell the bank this they will not ask anymore for a tax id. Worked for me with several german banks.

Edited January 8, 2019 by stat

[fouryesrs]

18 hours ago, alexanderhu said:

I'm not from the US. Whether it's taxable or not is one question but whether is a Thai Elite member who is living in the country full time is a tax resident or not is another one. If yes then he or she should be able to obtain a tax id. If such person can't obtain a tax id then he or she must maintain a home elsewhere where you can obtain a tax id otherwise it's impossible to open and maintain bank accounts since all banks wants to know the customer's tax residency.

ur tax id is the number on the pink id card ...if u want you can pay taxes with the help of this number..it is also recocnized oversee as a thai tax number...but if they dont want your money you better spend it yourselves... plenty of beautifull mistresses everywhere who would be more than happy to "tax" you...

[alexanderhu]

I see, well I think the same and I should be able to obtain a tax id on a Thai Elite visa considering the fact that I become a tax resident once I spend 180 days in a tax year in the country. By the way, Thailand is now a part of the AEOI club and they're going to exchange banking and other related financial information with other countries so if you reside in Thailand and you wanna open a bank account in Singapore then you're gonna need a local tax id, a solid proof of address and a residence permit (in this case the Thai Elite visa). So, I think the same and trading income is taxable on the arising basis, i.e. when you make a profit regardless of where your accounts are located. I will try to obtain a tax id and I will talk with other tax advisors and accountants although I already talked with more than 10, literally.

 

Firefan, trading on capital markets is considered as gainful activity and the proceedings are usually taxable on the arising basis even in countries where foreign sourced income is not taxable or where there is a remittance basis taxation. It is because if you buy stocks, bonds or other assets that you own on your overseas accounts then you invest your money by converting your money into various movable and transferable assets. At the time of sale, you realize your usually long term capital gains and that's it. However, there are countries which says that no mater what you trade, if you're trading actively, i.e. on average you close your positions within 6 months, you're using leverage, you're using sophisticated techniques to bet on the price movements, then even if you buy stocks or bonds, you may be taxed regularly. Here in the EU usually if you trade then you pay income tax but if you invest then you pay capital gains tax and the latter tends to be lower in most cases, however there are countries where both types gets taxed at the same rates due to the flat rate income tax system. On the other hand, if you trade derivatives, i.e. Forex, CFDs, futures or options on various financial products, then you're not buying any asset or anything transferable. You simply open a position with that broker to basically bet on a price movement. You can't transfer your Fx or CFD positions to another broker because you don't own any asset that you could transfer. It's merely a contract between you and the broker based on which the brokerage company is obligated to credit or debit the results on your account at the time you close your position.

[Naam]

2 hours ago, alexanderhu said:

In my opinion it's not that simple.

you have opinions, i have experience... detailed experience. if you want to make your life difficult you have my blessing. by the way... both my wife and my[not so]humble self are EU citizens of a country who's taxman has very sharp teeth.

[BertM]

1 hour ago, alexanderhu said:

I see, well I think the same and I should be able to obtain a tax id on a Thai Elite visa considering the fact that I become a tax resident once I spend 180 days in a tax year in the country.

Just curious... as to why you are wanting to pay taxes in Thailand on investment gains & income on accounts that are outside of Thailand? Is it to sever ties to your home country? If you don't bring the money into Thailand in the same year it's earned, then you don't need to pay any Thai income taxes on it. I know a UK citizen who lives here full-time and has income from outside of the UK and outside of Thailand but does not pay any taxes in either country. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by BertM

[Ks45672]

 

 

If they haven't asked you for tax and your income is generated abroad then the only caveat is don't bring it here in the same tax year as you earned it 

 

Also  selling your stocks in another country or even buying more is not depriving any Thai person of a job so hardly any business of anyone but yourself, opening a company and employing 4 Thais to watch you press buttons on your laptop would be laughable tho... ???? 

 

If you have too much profits why not donate it to an orphanage or other worthwhile cause? ....there are plenty of people in need out there! 

 

 

 

 

[BertM]

3 hours ago, alexanderhu said:

The applicant tells the tax authorities that he or she is going to become a non resident on this and that date. I don't know how it is where you are from but here in the EU usually when you file the paperwork to become a non resident for tax purposes, then you have to file a final tax return and pay your taxes by the date you file your last and final return. Then the applicant moves to Thailand with the Thai Elite visa...

So, the reason for you wanting a tax ID from Thailand is that you want to sever your tax liability ties to the EU, correct? But, then you want to keep your existing accounts outside of Thailand open for trading purposes. Then, you may be on the honor system to report any gains or income to Thai tax man because your accounts were already existing from outside Thailand. Why are you wanting to sever ties with the EU.... Is it the high tax rates?

Edited January 8, 2019 by BertM

[Naam]

3 hours ago, humbug said:

this thread is misnamed and should not have a visa which is not a permanent resident or work permit attached. Many times we see threads vanish when fools say how do i work on visa on arrival without anyone knowing blah blah This is another blatant attempt to wum. The op seems to want to trash this visa when all he had to do is set up a company in thailand then gain a work permit and pay his taxes. He knows this its just a complete wum. 

yep! setting up a company would be the right thing to do, assuming... he's dumb enough to follow your advice.

[moana]

10 hours ago, Krupps said:

That is a real problem for dividend income investors, without Tax ID 

the withholding rate is a whopping 30%, the treaty rate is only 10%, if I remember correctly.

Treaty rate is 15%. There is no problem getting the treaty rate from sensible US brokers (e.g. Interactive Brokers, Schwab) without a tax ID.

[Naam]

1 hour ago, alexanderhu said:

you wanna open a bank account in Singapore then you're gonna need a local tax id

what part of my comment

 

Quote

if you need a tax ID for banking purposes: some banks (offshore of course) in certain juridictions are stubbornly demanding a tax ID for the beneficary even though CRS (Common Reporting Standard) allows establishing a "tax residence" by simple declaration. most banks in Singapore and Hong Kong are aware of the Thai income tax practice not taxing offshore proceeds if not bla-bla same year...

is it you don't understand?

[Naam]

4 minutes ago, moana said:

10 hours ago, Krupps said:

That is a real problem for dividend income investors, without Tax ID 

the withholding rate is a whopping 30%, the treaty rate is only 10%, if I remember correctly.

Treaty rate is 15%. There is no problem getting the treaty rate from sensible US brokers (e.g. Interactive Brokers, Schwab) without a tax ID.

W8-Ben is all you need.

[alexanderhu]

BertM, Ks45672: I would like to stay legal and fully compliant. Indeed, I can't use my former tax id since I'm no longer a tax resident and I need a local one from Thailand. However, it has nothing to do with not paying taxes. In fact, I'm the one wanting to pay if I have to pay and truth to be told it's still not clear to me whether my trading income is taxable in Thailand or not. In other words, I cut all my ties with my country of citizenship not for tax reasons but for monetary reasons, i.e. I did not want to maintain a home in my home country considering I ain't gonna go back there anytime soon so I simply told the tax man that I leave permanently, I ticked the right boxes, paid the taxes on my final tax return and I left. Now I'm gonna need a tax id in Thailand because I assume that my trading income is fully taxable in Thailand for two reasons: 1) I trade actively, on a daily basis, and these are speculative short term positions; 2) I trade derivatives only so I do not own any assets when I'm in a position. Consequently based on the Thai income tax act that I found online on the tax authority's website, I believe that my trading activities would be categorized as doing business in Thailand and thus subject to income tax like any other locally sourced income.

 

Again, I'm not a US but an EU citizen and my bank and brokerage accounts are located in the EU not in the US.

Edited January 8, 2019 by alexanderhu

[moana]

9 minutes ago, alexanderhu said:

my bank and brokerage accounts are located in the EU not in the US

So the problem is that your current banks and brokers require a new tax ID? That's easy to solve. Switch to better banks and brokers. You can easily open accounts in the US as an EU citizen who is a TH resident. I bet you'll be saving a fortune in fees as well.

[alexanderhu]

Yes, all my banks and brokers are asking for my new tax id. I do not want to open an account in the US for multiple reasons, two of them are the lack of currency accounts which is an issue since I trade, deal and transact in Euros only and US brokers offers far less products and markets outside the US to trade on. Yes, there is one exception, IB but there are other options in the EU and when it comes to banks. Thanks, but I do not want to deal with US banks. They work like if we'd still be in the 90s. Going to a branch to open an account? What for? A non EU citizen, non EU resident person can open a fee-free EUR current account over the internet, all he or she  needs is a webcam. Plus EUR transactions takes an hour on average compared to the 1-3 days with USD and some banks in the EU offer unlimited fee-free transactions.

 

So tax id is one problem, I'll try to solve it as soon as I can, I'll try the interest income tactic that someone here said and the other issue is whether my trading income is taxable or not.

Edited January 8, 2019 by alexanderhu

[Ks45672]

1 hour ago, alexanderhu said:

BertM, Ks45672: I would like to stay legal and fully compliant. Indeed, I can't use my former tax id since I'm no longer a tax resident and I need a local one from Thailand. However, it has nothing to do with not paying taxes. In fact, I'm the one wanting to pay if I have to pay and truth to be told it's still not clear to me whether my trading income is taxable in Thailand or not. In other words, I cut all my ties with my country of citizenship not for tax reasons but for monetary reasons, i.e. I did not want to maintain a home in my home country considering I ain't gonna go back there anytime soon so I simply told the tax man that I leave permanently, I ticked the right boxes, paid the taxes on my final tax return and I left. Now I'm gonna need a tax id in Thailand because I assume that my trading income is fully taxable in Thailand for two reasons: 1) I trade actively, on a daily basis, and these are speculative short term positions; 2) I trade derivatives only so I do not own any assets when I'm in a position. Consequently based on the Thai income tax act that I found online on the tax authority's website, I believe that my trading activities would be categorized as doing business in Thailand and thus subject to income tax like any other locally sourced income.

 

Again, I'm not a US but an EU citizen and my bank and brokerage accounts are located in the EU not in the US.

I have friends in similar situations, some trade stocks , forex, cryptocurrency,  oil and gas etc  for many years and they don't pay tax to the uk/eu or to thailand either and they just abide by the "wait 1 year rule" 

 

I don't think there is a specific law  for trading derivatives but pressing the buttons on your laptop to manage your own overseas financial assets wouldn't be something i would worry about personally 

 

If they don't ask you for tax and don't want to give you a tax id despite asking then what can you do about it anyway? Except enjoy the money... ???? 

 

 

[alexanderhu]

I see, that's good news and really useful information, thank you Ks45672! Are you sure they trade not just stocks but derivative products, fx and cryptocurrencies as well? Haha, yeah, if that's the case then indeed it sounds really good. ????

Edited January 8, 2019 by alexanderhu

[lkv]

You tell your banks and brokers the following. (Courtesy of HSBC).

 

=======

If a TIN is unavailable please provide the appropriate reason A, B or C*

 

Reason A – The country where the Account Holder is liable to pay tax does not issue TINs to its residents

 

Reason B – The Account Holder is otherwise unable to obtain a TIN or equivalent number (Please explain why you are unable to obtain a TIN in the below table if you have selected this reason)

 

Reason C – No TIN is required. (Note. Only select this reason if the authorities of the country of tax residence entered below do not require the TIN to be disclosed)

=======

 

You tell them Reason C, since Thailand is not part of AEOI.

 

If they don't understand, you tell them Reason B, because no local income is earned in Thailand and therefore no tax id is issued or needed, since there is no tax liability within Thailand. As for overseas income, you always bring it in "next year".

Edited January 8, 2019 by lkv

[alexanderhu]

lkv: I already explained that Thailand is a part of the AEOI. They joined it about a year ago but indeed the first packet of information has not yet been sent but they're going to send it this year or the next year.  Furthermore, are you positive that trading income from derivatives is considered as foreign income in Thailand?

[lkv]

10 minutes ago, alexanderhu said:

lkv: I already explained that Thailand is a part of the AEOI. They joined it about a year ago but indeed the first packet of information has not yet been sent but they're going to send it this year or the next year.  

 

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by lkv

[lkv]

"On 26 January 2017, Thailand took a step towards compliance with the Common Reporting Standard, an international system for different tax authorities to exchange information. After several years of delay, the Kingdom joined the Global Forum on Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes, becoming its 139th member.

 

The Forum is designed to open up the path to the automatic exchange of financial information. However, this is merely the first step towards implementing the CRS. Thailand would need to sign and implement a separate convention as well as put all the mechanisms into place before it could start to automatically exchange people’s information. Consequently, there is no set date as to when Thailand will be completely in the CRS club. 

 

=====================

 

Translation:

 

-They joined the "Forum"

-They are not implementing AEOI nor are they in a hurry to do so.

 

Until that happens, no TIN is required.

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by lkv

[lkv]

24 minutes ago, alexanderhu said:

 Furthermore, are you positive that trading income from derivatives is considered as foreign income in Thailand?

You are reading into things too much, you are in a developing country where there is no tax enforcement on foreign sourced income of any kind, because of law loopholes that benefit rich Thais, and you are talking derivatives?

 

This is not the US or Europe, that's why they can't answer your question, they don't have a clue nor do they care to enforce.

Edited January 8, 2019 by lkv

[Crisu]

lkv: I already explained that Thailand is a part of the AEOI. They joined it about a year ago but indeed the first packet of information has not yet been sent but they're going to send it this year or the next year.  Furthermore, are you positive that trading income from derivatives is considered as foreign income in Thailand?     

 

I dont know where you got this info about Thailand but TH is not part of the AEOI and also not for 2019 or 2020.  http://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/country-by-country-exchange-relationships.htm There is no relationship with TH or any other country about any automatic tax info exchange. If you check the above OECD link you will find there are 0 (zero) agreements between TH or other countries.

 

By the way i have several accounts in SG without a thai or any other Tax ID but i will apply for one next week in BKK, just in case.

I am going to ask back the withholding tax from my fixed deposit account. But to be able to do that, you have to wait until the taxable year is finished (2018).

So if you want to go this way too, you have to open a fixed deposit first and wait until 2019 is finished then you can try to obtain TIN in 2020 to be able to request back the withholding tax.

One of my thai friends who assist me, talked with the thai revenue department in BKK and the staff told this way would be possible.

No need work permit, no need thai elite visa. Just bring bank book as proof the bank charged tax on my interest + your residence in TH (e.g. rental agreement).

Just in case i will prepare also copies of my passport, utility bill, certificate of residence of thai immigration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crisu]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In fact, I'm the one wanting to pay if I have to pay and truth to be told it's still not clear to me whether my trading income is taxable in Thailand or not

 According to the reputable international tax consultant KPMG you dont have to pay tax on income as a thai tax resident if this income is foreign sourced and not transferred to TH the same year it is received  https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2014/04/thailand-thinking-beyond-borders.html

 

Here some info from Deloitte

 

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/global/Documents/Tax/dttl-tax-thailandhighlights-2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjbj_Tjk9_fAhUFzIUKHRxRApIQFjABegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw115Ldx1gzWYoBdobSDkBj5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So why pay tax if you can avoid so easy just by transferring your earnings the next year to TH in case you need the money?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alexanderhu]

lkv: Well, they're part of the AEOI or under the process of becoming a member, almost the same. Sooner or later but they're going to exchange that information. Yes, that makes sense, thank you! I have asked so many people about the tax treatment of trading income and most people just say that it's not taxable but when I tell them it may be locally sourced since it is considered to be locally sourced in SG or HK then they go quite and doesn't seem to know the answer because I don't trade stocks but currencies and I have triple digits positions in a month so we are definitely not talking about investments here. Your point makes sense but you know if I don't pay any tax but one day if they get information within the AEOI framework and decide to investigate my tax matters because I have X balance and I pay zero tax in Thailand, then I would be in a really hot mess.

 

Crisu: I know, I read those and talked with many tax advisors (not KPMG though) but the question is not whether foreign sourced income is taxable on the remittance basis or not but whether trading income itself is foreign sourced if let's say the taxpayer is trading on the currency market with a foreign brokerage account or it's locally sourced because the trades were placed from Thailand.

Edited January 8, 2019 by alexanderhu

[jacko45k]

6 hours ago, stat said:

the aeoi does not demand a tax id from countries that does not automatically distribute them i.e. Thailand. If you tell the bank this they will not ask anymore for a tax id. Worked for me with several german banks.

Well my UK bank just asked me again a year later. 

[Crisu]

 

 

 

or it's locally sourced because the trades were placed from Thailand.

 

You can make easy story very complicated.

 

Has nothing to do where you placed yor orders.

They mean income interest on foreign bank accounts or capital gains, rental income, dividends from foreign company ect.

 

What if you place one of your orders during your holiday trip to Vietnam or in the plane by internet (i did it)? According to your tax logic this would then be foreign source and you would have to proove it to not be taxable in TH then.

Thats complete insane.

 

But anyway good luck with your research or your fear regaring AEOI and TH.

 

 

[alexanderhu]

Crisu: you mean it's locally sourced and taxable on the arising basis?