UK in deadlock over Brexit 'Plan B' as May and Corbyn tussle

[dunroaming]

8 hours ago, Cobby said:

I do not understand why all the fuss

its better to have a no deal 

as a country we can stand alone we can survive very well 

england dose not need any one else 

we import 70% more than we export 

its Europe that needs us 

German cars 

French cars

itslian cars

spanish cars 

then it’s the wine

all foods the list goes on 

a no deal means the whole world will deal with us 

imigration

we can choose who we want to come to England 

???????????????????????????? 

it’s time now to put the great back into Britten 

 

and England to rule the waves again 

Long live 

 

 

 England ???????????????????????????? 

Not sure if this post is tongue in cheek or not.  If not then no point in responding to such nonsense.

 

"it’s time now to put the great back into Britten".  That will be Benjamin Britten will it! ???? 

 

 

[dunroaming]

Some of the old quotes from before and post the referendum are re-surfacing again and being put on billboards around the country.

 

Gove's tweet from April 2016

 

"The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want"

 

Davis tweet from October 2016

 

"There will be no downside to Brexit. Only a considerable upside"

[NanLaew]

Either way, the Chancellor's much-reported, Tuesday evening telephone call with "representatives of 330 businesses, among them the heads of Tesco, BP, Siemens and Scottish Power as well as other senior executives who have been vocal in warning against the impact of a no-deal Brexit on the economy" caused much commentary and speculation. The reporting broadly suggests that Hammond is somehow working behind the PM's back and the long-knives are out. In all reality, just after the wheels fell off her Brexit deal (as expected) and facing Corbyn's call for a vote of no confidence, as part of his JOB DESCRIPTION, May had already told Hammond to get on the blower and sound out the UK's business leader's. All this while she went and stroked the ruffled feathers on the rump of the DUP to keep them onside for tomorrows vote. Then she met with the 'Famous Five' who told her they would quit their cabinet jobs and they have plenty chums on the back benches that are waving the same yellow-colored pom poms. All of which is in her JOB DESCRIPTION. Last I heard, the Cabinet is still meeting and working.

 

This perpetual picture that we have a fractured and fractious government isn't really doing the UK any great favors at all. Yes, Tory backs are against the wall and the vote of confidence win was a whole lot narrower than any talking head had suggested it would be. If the DUP(licitous) had jumped ship, we would be debating the UK's snap election instead of Brexit.

 

But the repercussions of getting Brexit all horribly wrong is the stuff of even more conjecture. BoJo jumped ship but nobody of note followed. Rees-Mogg tried to make it all more understandable for those who seemed to miss the significance of their vote (or lack of) back in the summer of 2016 when most voters were probably more interested in planning (one of their) holidays. More recently, his ERG seems to be having problems with the rudder. Or maybe it's on autopilot now?

 

Then the two losers specifically tasked with negotiating Brexit who got all theatrical and quit... but STILL didn't manage to get any substantial group of Tories to man (or woman) up and come up with any alternatives let alone a challenge. The story then gets painted that May see's herself as another Thatcher and 'not for turning' but maybe she only wanted some people to do their jobs in the first place and come up with tangibles and deliverables from Brussels. Wring them out of them, beat them out of them but get them. When they failed, it is suddenly her intransigence that's blamed. Chequers was probably her only alternative in lieu of anything remotely realistic or tangible from people already blessed with balls who failed to take them to work.

[rixalex]

I think you are conflating two separate things. Ideally, as I said, fundamental changes should come about with a supermajority. If the precedent had not been set already for a 50/50 vote, I would have accepted the need to Yes to achieve a supermajority.
 
I appreciate that it may lead to issues later - nobody wanted that the Brexit result would have been so close. Clearly with such a close run thing, the losing side is going to dig its heels in, especially when they have have what some claim to show evidence of cheating.
 
For that reason, indyref2 will hopefully be a resounding vote to leave - and the whole process should have international scrutiny to ensure that it is conducted fairly. I may be wrong, but I don't recall Brexit having any independent oversight?

If your only concern is winning at any cost, then I can see the strength of your argument with sticking with a system that you yourself say is wrong and flawed. Presumably though, the people deciding such matters shouldn't be doing so based on the argument of "winning at any cost", but rather what is least flawed and most likely to be successful.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, damascase said:

What ‘bitter experience’........... Are you sure the UK would have been better off if they hadn’t joined the EEC/EU? Or would the EU have been better off withouth the never fully committed, opting-out and ‘waiving-the-rules’ UK?

Questions, questions.........

Waiving the rules is an EU favourite.

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Either way, the Chancellor's much-reported, Tuesday evening telephone call with "representatives of 330 businesses, among them the heads of Tesco, BP, Siemens and Scottish Power as well as other senior executives who have been vocal in warning against the impact of a no-deal Brexit on the economy" caused much commentary and speculation. The reporting broadly suggests that Hammond is somehow working behind the PM's back and the long-knives are out. In all reality, just after the wheels fell off her Brexit deal (as expected) and facing Corbyn's call for a vote of no confidence, as part of his JOB DESCRIPTION, May had already told Hammond to get on the blower and sound out the UK's business leader's. All this while she went and stroked the ruffled feathers on the rump of the DUP to keep them onside for tomorrows vote. Then she met with the 'Famous Five' who told her they would quit their cabinet jobs and they have plenty chums on the back benches that are waving the same yellow-colored pom poms. All of which is in her JOB DESCRIPTION. Last I heard, the Cabinet is still meeting and working.

 

This perpetual picture that we have a fractured and fractious government isn't really doing the UK any great favors at all. Yes, Tory backs are against the wall and the vote of confidence win was a whole lot narrower than any talking head had suggested it would be. If the DUP(licitous) had jumped ship, we would be debating the UK's snap election instead of Brexit.

 

But the repercussions of getting Brexit all horribly wrong is the stuff of even more conjecture. BoJo jumped ship but nobody of note followed. Rees-Mogg tried to make it all more understandable for those who seemed to miss the significance of their vote (or lack of) back in the summer of 2016 when most voters were probably more interested in planning (one of their) holidays. More recently, his ERG seems to be having problems with the rudder. Or maybe it's on autopilot now?

 

Then the two losers specifically tasked with negotiating Brexit who got all theatrical and quit... but STILL didn't manage to get any substantial group of Tories to man (or woman) up and come up with any alternatives let alone a challenge. The story then gets painted that May see's herself as another Thatcher and 'not for turning' but maybe she only wanted some people to do their jobs in the first place and come up with tangibles and deliverables from Brussels. Wring them out of them, beat them out of them but get them. When they failed, it is suddenly her intransigence that's blamed. Chequers was probably her only alternative in lieu of anything remotely realistic or tangible from people already blessed with balls who failed to take them to work.

May was evidently undermining her so-called "Brexit Secretaries" from the off. No wonder they quit. 

[nauseus]

29 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Not sure if this post is tongue in cheek or not.  If not then no point in responding to such nonsense.

 

"it’s time now to put the great back into Britten".  That will be Benjamin Britten will it! ???? 

 

 

More like foot in mouth that one. ????

[dunroaming]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Waiving the rules is an EU favourite.

Whereas the Brits favour... "Ruling the waves"

 

Boom! Boom!

 

[bomber]

9 hours ago, Cobby said:

I do not understand why all the fuss

its better to have a no deal 

as a country we can stand alone we can survive very well 

england dose not need any one else 

we import 70% more than we export 

its Europe that needs us 

German cars 

French cars

itslian cars

spanish cars 

then it’s the wine

all foods the list goes on 

a no deal means the whole world will deal with us 

imigration

we can choose who we want to come to England 

???????????????????????????? 

it’s time now to put the great back into Britten 

 

and England to rule the waves again 

Long live 

 

 

 England ???????????????????????????? 

ya living in the past,this is about now Britain hasnt been great for 50-100 years,facts are the EU despite giving us the option to remain does not need us,no deal means life goes on just we will have a recession to contend with,all those who think some miracle is going to come our way from uncle sam or china or russia or nigera and kenya???? need to make up,companies WILL leave maybe not the amount that threatened but enough to do substancial damage,they are hardly going to be replaced with american or Nigerian car builders,we had little industry left before brexit we will have even less after it,even if brexit was scrapped the cost of the last 2.5 years has been billions,a total farce from day one

[bomber]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I think Benjamin Britten is great also 

 

Which is your favourite piece?

 

Is it Ingurlund, ingurland, ingurland?

cobby is living in dreamland,this might be him

[NanLaew]

16 minutes ago, nauseus said:

May was evidently undermining her so-called "Brexit Secretaries" from the off. No wonder they quit. 

Evidently? Has anyone got a link to any interviews or video footage where either Davis or Raab publicly say that they were undermined by the Prime Minister. Serious question, I may have missed it... I miss a lot lately.

 

On the other hand, maybe her so-called "Brexit Secretaries" weren't trying hard enough or not working in the UK's best interests? One usually quits before one gets fired. That's what I've done anyway but I'm old.

 

I guess it boils down to whether one subscribes to the notion that an un-elected British PM would really sell her birth country down the river in favour of her remaining the leader of a broke, humble and isolated island nation.

 

This does not compute.

[bomber]

16 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Evidently? Has anyone got a link to any interviews or video footage where either Davis or Raab publicly say that they were undermined by the Prime Minister. Serious question, I may have missed it... I miss a lot lately.

 

On the other hand, maybe her so-called "Brexit Secretaries" weren't trying hard enough or not working in the UK's best interests? One usually quits before one gets fired. That's what I've done anyway but I'm old.

 

I guess it boils down to whether one subscribes to the notion that an un-elected British PM would really sell her birth country down the river in favour of her remaining the leader of a broke, humble and isolated island nation.

 

This does not compute.

broke,humble and isolated island nation,couldnt of worded it better myself,others will tell you its still the greatest nation on planet earth ????

[NanLaew]

9 minutes ago, bomber said:

broke,humble and isolated island nation,couldnt of worded it better myself,others will tell you its still the greatest nation on planet earth ????

Hold on Tonto, we aint quite there yet.

 

Curb your enthusiasm.

[natway09]

All they need now to put the UK in the toilet is Jeremy for PM

[bomber]

4 minutes ago, natway09 said:

All they need now to put the UK in the toilet is Jeremy for PM

i said 2 years ago brexit would result in Corbyn,cheers brexiteers 

[dunroaming]

5 minutes ago, bomber said:

broke,humble and isolated island nation,couldnt of worded it better myself,others will tell you its still the greatest nation on planet earth ????

I think that it is a great country and British people generally are sound and good hearted.  As with any country there are many different voices and a fair amount of racist bigots, homophobes and cretins.  But they are vastly outnumbered by decent people.  That is why it matters what happens in the future, we need to ensure that the integrity and fabric of society in the UK is not destroyed by this Brexit fiasco.

[SheungWan]

10 hours ago, Cobby said:

I do not understand why all the fuss

its better to have a no deal 

as a country we can stand alone we can survive very well 

england dose not need any one else 

we import 70% more than we export 

its Europe that needs us 

German cars 

French cars

itslian cars

spanish cars 

then it’s the wine

all foods the list goes on 

a no deal means the whole world will deal with us 

imigration

we can choose who we want to come to England 

???????????????????????????? 

it’s time now to put the great back into Britten 

 

and England to rule the waves again 

Long live 

 

 

 England ???????????????????????????? 

Ingerland! Ingerland! Ingerland!

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

 

 

I guess it boils down to whether one subscribes to the notion that an un-elected British PM would really sell her birth country down the river in favour of her remaining the leader of a broke, humble and isolated island nation.

 

This does not compute.

PMs are not directly elected by the electorate.

[bomber]

18 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I think that it is a great country and British people generally are sound and good hearted.  As with any country there are many different voices and a fair amount of racist bigots, homophobes and cretins.  But they are vastly outnumbered by decent people.  That is why it matters what happens in the future, we need to ensure that the integrity and fabric of society in the UK is not destroyed by this Brexit fiasco.

luckily more and more people are realising what a farce it has been,it could well be avoided or certainly a very watered down version,hopefully lessons will of been learnt but somehow i doubt it,if it is scrapped and farage and bojo want it in the future then let them form their own party and try again in a proper manner without lies and BS,after all they have 18 million to build on,me thinks they wont tho

[bomber]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Ingerland! Ingerland! Ingerland!

ITS COMING HOME ITS COMING HOME,ITS COMING HOME

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, bomber said:

ITS COMING HOME ITS COMING HOME,ITS COMING HOME

 

10 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Ingerland! Ingerland! Ingerland!

Birds of a feather, intellectuals stick together. ????????????

[Mavideol]

10 hours ago, Cobby said:

I do not understand why all the fuss

its better to have a no deal 

as a country we can stand alone we can survive very well 

england dose not need any one else 

we import 70% more than we export 

its Europe that needs us 

German cars 

French cars

itslian cars

spanish cars 

then it’s the wine

all foods the list goes on 

a no deal means the whole world will deal with us 

imigration

we can choose who we want to come to England 

???????????????????????????? 

it’s time now to put the great back into Britten 

 

and England to rule the waves again 

Long live 

 

 

 England ???????????????????????????? 

does Scotland agrees with you?????

[bomber]

32 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

does Scotland agrees with you?????

nope,england will just get brexit out the way then it will be back to the scotland problem part 2,chaos is never ending and by then JC will be in power

[dunroaming]

53 minutes ago, bomber said:

nope,england will just get brexit out the way then it will be back to the scotland problem part 2,chaos is never ending and by then JC will be in power

I can't see JC ever being PM but I can see Labour in power if they dump him and side line Abbot.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

PMs are not directly elected by the electorate.

I know. But typically a British political party goes into an election with their party-elected leader and when that party wins, the enfeebled electorate, without really weighing each party's manifesto, like to think they voted for that charismatic leader, their chosen Prime Minister. Worked well for Tony Blair. Hence, when a relationship with any particular 'elected' PM goes sour, you commonly hear the disillusioned and bitter voter aligning themselves with those who voted for the other party and claiming, "I didn't vote for him/her." Similar to what happened to Gordon Brown. Now, when the incumbent party has some sort of internal frisson, major policy issues, or just becomes unpopular, then the leadership can change outwith an election and the voter feels cheated, especially when they end up with Hobson's choice, or worse. It's not often that both parties manage to proffer up an undesirable leader simultaneously but the stars have been in this imperfect alignment since at least September 2015.

 

If only Mr and Mrs Miliband had taught Ed how to eat a bacon sarny properly, we wouldn't be in this situation.

[NanLaew]

13 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I can't see JC ever being PM but I can see Labour in power if they dump him and side line Abbot.

Although infinitely desirable, I can't really see those two old lovers falling by the wayside anytime soon but I'll humour you and ask what rising Labour star(s) do you see assuming this mess?

[SheungWan]

35 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I can't see JC ever being PM but I can see Labour in power if they dump him and side line Abbot.

There is zero chance of JC being dumped this side of a general election.

[dunroaming]

13 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Although infinitely desirable, I can't really see those two old lovers falling by the wayside anytime soon but I'll humour you and ask what rising Labour star(s) do you see assuming this mess?

Well I have never really considered that question but the obvious choice would be David Miliband.  Doubt he would be tempted to enter the arena though and it is more likely to be Emily Thornberry or Yvette Cooper who would step up along with Liz Kendall.  However given the mess that May has made they may prefer to look for a male leader.  Andy Burnham might be tempted back but as an outsider I would fancy Boris Johnson.

 

"Oh but he is a Tory" I hear you say.  Well today he is but let's not forget that the day before he fronted the leave campaign he was a passionate remainer.  If anyone can change horses mid race it is him and if he thought for a Nano second that that would get him into number 10 he would probably jump at it.

 

Well you didn't expect a serious response from me did you? ????

[dunroaming]

12 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

There is zero chance of JC being dumped this side of a general election.

I agree.  I think it is more likely that Labour would split but I am not betting on that either.  I really have no clue what the Tories or Labour will do or how the public would react.  It's no exaggeration to say we are in uncharted waters.

[tebee]