Are We All Criminals?

[ChiangMaiThai]

Neteller, Centralcoin.com, Paypal (in most cases) and many more sites won't even do business with you if you are from Thailand. Credit cards and debit cards issued from Thai banks are worthless online and I wouldn't even begin to try to call the customer service number here for my cards.

With a Thai IP address, a US credit card is declined.

What is so wrong with this country that the financial world won't even cater to its consumers?

And has anyone been able to get around these road blocks that are set up to stop us lowly dwellers of Thailand from participating in the world?

[stroll]

An obvious, if somehow unsatisfactory way around it is to have a friend/relative/business partner outside Thailand. I am not using the internet for business, but issues of credibility do occur when solely based in Thailand. You'd need to consider company registration and other legal stuff whichever country you are operating in, but I think you know that already.

[Phil Conners]

What is wrong? Uncontrolled fraud that isn't dealt with is what is wrong.

As an online merchant, once you find out that 9 of 10 charges from a country is fradulent and you lose not only the value of the sale but get slapped with a chargeback fine from the card company it becomes a very simple decision just to say "no thanks" to any attempts from that country. This goes for the larger part of Asia including Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, Korea and China as well as most of the former Sovjet satellites and South America. There are simply too much fraud from these areas to make it cost-effective to do business with them.

[lopburi3]

Only once had any problem using my US card (years ago) and that was resolved by manual processing. In last few months have used for airline travel, flower delivery, candy purchase, hotel reservations etc. Only problem was a phone card company which required a US telephone number to contact for fraud verification, but that had nothing to do with being in Thailand; all first time customers had that requirement.

I do know at lot of the companies will not ship to anything other than the credit card billing address so maybe that is more of a problem than the ISP?

[Phil Conners]

A somewhat related story - I generally only use my (European) MC in ATM's here but once - just once, about a year ago - I used it to pay for a dinner in one of the japanese restaurants in (old) Big C.

Within a month my card had been maxed out in Malaysia, Indonesia and Japan by fradulent use. Of course the charges were accepted as fraud by the card company but I still had to pay substantial fees to have the card cancelled and replaced, plus it was a couple of nervious months until the card company accepted that I hadn't been on a spending binge myself.

The card now remains in my safe for use only in ATM's and online purchases over SSL connections to safe countries.

[Lordfoul]

ChiangMaiThai,

I have purchased from many websites using my US based credit card while living here in thailand. As long as you have the items shipped to your US based address you shouldn't either. Did you try using the proxy servers I mentioned in the other thread?

/SM

[Georgie-Porgie]

I have had to order supplies for my business for years through an intermediary in another country. The supplier refuses to do business with anyone based in Thailand, even if one pays cash in advance.

As someone very wise once said on here ( I think that it was Doctor Patpong ), we're all a bunch of bail-jumpers!

[ChiangMaiThai]

ChiangMaiThai,

I have purchased from many websites using my US based credit card while living here in thailand. As long as you have the items shipped to your US based address you shouldn't either. Did you try using the proxy servers I mentioned in the other thread?

/SM

I finally found one that works properly for SSL. The site in question of course wanted to call me at my US phone number. So I used my trsuty internet phone with a NY number. And I am in!

[ChiangMaiThai]

What is wrong? Uncontrolled fraud that isn't dealt with is what is wrong.

As an online merchant, once you find out that 9 of 10 charges from a country is fradulent and you lose not only the value of the sale but get slapped with a chargeback fine from the card company it becomes a very simple decision just to say "no thanks" to any attempts from that country. This goes for the larger part of Asia including Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, Korea and China as well as most of the former Sovjet satellites and South America.  There are simply too much fraud from these areas to make it cost-effective to do business with them.

So I guess that answers my question. We are all criminals after all.

Surely there must be a way for honest people living in half the world's countries to have their ID's verified for use online?

[chanchao]

I never have trouble about being in Thailand and paying for things. Only trouble is related to using a Visa Electron card instead of a 'real' Visa card, and this is a problem more with companies within Thailand! (Air Asia!!!!)

And if someone doesn't want my money then fine! I'll take my business elsewhere!! I think it's mostly fly-by-night little operations that use services like Paypal anyway? You don't have trouble with the likes of Amazon and other serious online vendors.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[ChiangMaiThai]

I never have trouble about being in Thailand and paying for things. Only trouble is related to using a Visa Electron card instead of a 'real' Visa card, and this is a problem more with companies within Thailand! (Air Asia!!!!)

And if someone doesn't want my money then fine! I'll take my business elsewhere!! I think it's mostly fly-by-night little operations that use services like Paypal anyway? You don't have trouble with the likes of Amazon and other serious online vendors.

Cheers,

Chanchao

I recently got a BKK Bank Visa Electron. It hasn't worked once online in a number of attempts and I am entering the Thai address associated with the card...

[Axel]

Two years ago I saw a watch in an in-flight mag, that I really wanted to have. On board, no way, shop was closed. Next day checked around, found a company in the US offering the same for about the same price. Ordered, got a confirmation within 5 minutes, re-confirmed and got a mail, explaining, they do not accept Amercian Express, issued in Thailand.

So I just asked them if they are dicriminationg against Thailand or only against AMEXCO, cc: Amexco BKK, whose customer service telephoned with the vendor, who than agreed to accept my order. Next day they told me the item is out of stock.

PS: Found the watch 2 weeks later in BKK airport duty-free shop, 40 percent cheaper than the US-price.

[Barty]

I have a Bangkok Bank Visa card. I have used it many times to order books and DVDs from Amazon in the US and UK. I have also ordered automotive parts and other bits and pieces from various sites and never had a problem.

The only time I have ever had a problem ordering anything from outside of Thialand is when I tried to order mobile phone accessories eXpansys UK. They dicked me around for a coupe of weeks and eventually I gave up.

[Darknight]

A somewhat related story - I generally only use my (European) MC in ATM's here but once - just once, about a year ago - I used it to pay for a dinner in one of the japanese restaurants in (old) Big C.

Within a month my card had been maxed out in Malaysia, Indonesia and Japan by fradulent use. Of course the charges were accepted as fraud by the card company but I still had to pay substantial fees to have the card cancelled and replaced, plus it was a couple of nervious months until the card company accepted that I hadn't been on a spending binge myself.

The card now remains in my safe for use only in ATM's and online purchases over SSL connections to safe countries.

My card was used on a vacation in thailand 2 years ago in oktober, ONLY IN ATM's.

At new years Visa card company calls me and asks if i went to asia for a holiday last week ?? i said huh? apparently my complete card was withdrawn in GUAM in a jewellery shop for the full amount = 4500$. They established it was fraud so they reimbursed the complete thing and gave me a new card.

But the operator also assumed my card was copied in an ATM in thailand.

Beware , i think especially of the litlle ones in supermarkets. they can easely be added with an extra chip to read your info.

[Up2U]

PS: Found the watch 2 weeks later in BKK airport duty-free shop, 40 percent cheaper than the US-price.

So imagine how cheap it must be in Dubai Duty Free

[simey]

Thailand is one of the countries regularly excluded by ATM / POS card issuers - I've had my UK issued visa and amex questioned there regularly. And watch for the skimmers in ATMs - you can normally tell as the skimmer sits proud of the card reader and there must also be a small camera somewhere to record your pin entry.

All over in the next few years though - those little smart chips appearing on your credit cards will soon be used for verification for transactions where the customer is present - for online the plan is to issue people with chip readers attached to the PC that verifies the PIN you will use.

My card got debited after use in Mexico - amex tried to tell me it wasn't fraud as it only happened once! I got the money back from the online company (web hosting) byt threatening them with legal action as they did not have a signature.

[astral]

I can confirm ChaiangMaiThai's experience.

My card is issued in the UK, but my billing address is here.

I was trying to sign up for a US News Service and had to give up.

A sad reflection on Thailand and the US view of Thailand.

[Yohan]

Thailand is well known for card-fraud. Here in Japan the same situation, remarkable criminality...

In Thailand I use my creditcard only for the rent-a-car company (since years always the same office) - for 3 hotels, I am visiting since many years, 2 well known shops, and I paid for the hospital...(always the same private hospital)

No Online-shopping by internet, and never pay with it at unknown shops or restaurants, never withdraw cash at ATMs, which are not located directly at a bank.

My creditcard shows my photo also, not only my signature.

I have an old Thai cashcard (baht 20.000,- maximum per day) and have about 100.000,- baht in the bank savings account.

ATM is everywhere in Thailand now....this is OK for most situations I had...

simey Posted on Tue 2004-05-25, 18:56:36 ...and there must also be a small camera somewhere to record your pin entry

If you know about computers and you have good technical equipment and know-how, then you do not need a camera near the ATM to record the PIN code......

Johann

[El_D]

Kind of off-topic, BUT------

If you're in Japan and need to get money from an ATM with a non-Japanese issued ATM card, then the ONLY place I found where I could get Yen was at the ATM's located inside of the local post offices, which are only open 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM on weekdays.

Luckily I had a VERY nice taxi driver that agreed to return to my hotel the next day (after a lot of jabbering between he and the VERY nice hotel clerk) to collect his $150.00 USD fee for the one hour trip I took from the Hiroshima train station to the Hiroshima airport hotel.

I had pre-paid the hotel bill at a travel agent for 2 nights, so they were pretty confident I'd be around & able to find an ATM the next day, which I did, in Yokohama, with the help of a Swedish ex-pat I stopped on the street.

I was beginning to think I'd have to call my boss and have him send the money to me via Western Union!

I've been to 55+ countries since 1998, and aside from Cambodia, Yemen, and Bangladesh, I've never had problems finding an ATM that would take my US issued ATM card, so I was quite suprised to find that it's like pulling teeth in Japan.

[phuketrichard]

someone said, With a Thai IP address, a US credit card is declined

I have been living here for long time and never had problem ordering things online or paying bills in other countries online.

I use citibank in the states and bay all my bills by login in from here in Phuket

Problem with thai credit cards is there is so much fraud here that no one wnats to take the chance and why should they?? If the card is bad whats going to happen? they will contact the owner and he's going to say,

Mi Pen rai>>>>

[mbkudu]

Two years ago I saw a watch in an in-flight mag, that I really wanted to have. On board, no way, shop was closed. Next day checked around, found a company in the US offering the same for about the same price. Ordered, got a confirmation within 5 minutes, re-confirmed and got a mail, explaining, they do not accept Amercian Express, issued in Thailand.

So I just asked them if they are dicriminationg against Thailand or only against AMEXCO, cc: Amexco BKK, whose customer service telephoned with the vendor, who than agreed to accept my order. Next day they told me the item is out of stock.

PS: Found the watch 2 weeks later in BKK airport duty-free shop, 40 percent cheaper than the US-price.

Uhh.. Sure it's a real one?

[Yohan]

If you're in Japan and need to get money from an ATM with a non-Japanese issued ATM card, then the ONLY place I found where I could get Yen was at the ATM's located inside of the local post offices, which are only open 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM on weekdays..........

Inernational Creditcards are not well known thoughout Japan. This is not a country for the international tourist, and Japanese usually are using different systems....quite different from somewhere else....

ATM for the locals bank cashcard is NOT an international creditcard ATM!

It is all different here from the States or from Europe.,

Citibank made an agreement with the Japanese postal services to use their ATM for an withdrawal of USD 500,- per day - NOT 24h available, but this works in all Japan.

Forget about Hiroshima, this is a provincial town... the only places you will find international services are Tokyo, Yokohama, Nagoya, Osaka, Kobe, Fukuoka and Sapporo.

In Yokohama is a full operating Citibank Branch next to railway station in the Sheraton Hotel, 24 h service...

There are International CREDITCARD only ATM available, serviced by Sumitomo, which has international contracts, we are lucky here in our office in Tokyo, as such a machine is very near our place.... it works 24 h since many years and it never failed to accept a card of our customers, who tried it hopelessly everywhere else.

Cash card and Credit card fraud is a big problem here in Japan, intelligent computer related gangsters using high tech machinery are able to read the creditcard, which is in your trousers and extract the code. It is possible to read the PIN code of a person withdrawing money out of the ATM without any camera....

They make then quickly a duplicat of the cashcard or creditcard and withdraw the rest of the money in the bank account.

Many Japanese are using a creditcard-like system related to department stores... you go shopping, show your *creditcard*, they will deliver all and they will collect it from your bank like a loan every month, calculated out of a monthly balance.

Your bank will pay ONLY to the bank accounts of the permitted pre-registrated department stores....

ths is considered as a very safe system....and works very much troublefree.

Johann

[Yohan]

someone said,  With a Thai IP address, a US credit card is declined

I have been living here for long time and never had problem ordering things online or paying bills in other countries online.

I use citibank in the states and bay all my bills by login in from here in Phuket

Problem with thai credit cards is there is so much fraud here that no one wnats to take the chance and why should they??  If the card is bad whats going to happen?  they will contact the owner and he's going to say,

Mi Pen rai>>>>

I think, only certain creditcards are rejected.

I do not think, it has anything to do with the IP address.

It is easy to mask an IP address using proxy servers somewhere else.

It should depend on the kind of the creditcard and the owner of the creditcard......

The Thai Baht is not a totally free compatible currency.

Never had any problem in Thailand, even not over the internet, but now I am using my creditcard not many time there.

Johann

[meadish_sweetball]

someone said,  With a Thai IP address, a US credit card is declined

I have been living here for long time and never had problem ordering things online or paying bills in other countries online.

I use citibank in the states and bay all my bills by login in from here in Phuket

Problem with thai credit cards is there is so much fraud here that no one wnats to take the chance and why should they??  If the card is bad whats going to happen?  they will contact the owner and he's going to say,

Mi Pen rai>>>>

It sounds like you use Citibank's Internet banking to pay your bills from Thailand. That is not the same thing as using the buying function on a shopping web site. But maybe I misunderstand you?

[simey]

It is possible to read the PIN code of a person withdrawing money out of the ATM without any camera....

It's not possible to get the PIN from the card - the PIN is not stored on any of the 3 mag stripes on ATM cards, it's actually generated using an algorithm applied to parts of the PAN from track2. Without your PIN it's impossible to get money from an ATM. If someone makes a copy of your card they HAVE to obtain your PIN somehow - either over-the-shoulder or using a camera for the skimmers.

[Axel]

As I said earlier, my American Express was refused because issued in Thailand.

I understand the first 4 digits or your card number show the issuing place.

I use cards issued in Thailand and in Hong Kong. Usually no problem.

The problem comes from the shop, who perhaps is afraid or perhaps uses banks or financing comapnies who put a stop on certain countries.

[camerata]

If you're in Japan and need to get money from an ATM with a non-Japanese issued ATM card, then the ONLY place I found where I could get Yen was at the ATM's located inside of the local post offices, which are only open 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM on weekdays.

I was quite suprised to find that it's like pulling teeth in Japan.

Yes, it's pretty difficult finding an international ATM machine in Japan. Two of the four in Kyoto closed recently. Amex only has one office there, and it's in Okinawa.

[camerata]

As I said earlier, my American Express was refused because issued in Thailand.

I understand the first 4 digits or your card number show the issuing place.

I use cards issued in Thailand and in Hong Kong. Usually no problem.

I use my Amex card almost exclusively online (because I figure Amex will treat me better in case of fraud) and save my Visa card for regular use. So far, I haven't had any trouble with it. Every book and dvd seller has accepted it, including Amazon USA and UK, CD-WOW, HKFlix, VideoFlicks, YesAsia and Barnes & Noble. And Adorama. If I don't buy anything from B&N for several months, the next purchase will result in an email about "issues" with my card. After I send them a reply, the order is released. Amazon MarketPlace states that you must be resident in one of their approved (mostly Western) countries, but I can order as long as I have it delivered to a friend in the USA.

I guess it depends a lot on whether the vendor can/will absorb the losses from fraud. Amazon is far and away the best international online retailer, as far as I'm concerned. The one time a video tape failed to arrive they sent me a free replacement with free shipping, and no suspicious questions asked. B&N, on the other hand, charged me for the shipping when they replaced a lost book.

[Yohan]

It is possible to read the PIN code of a person withdrawing money out of the ATM without any camera....

It's not possible to get the PIN from the card - the PIN is not stored on any of the 3 mag stripes on ATM cards, it's actually generated using an algorithm applied to parts of the PAN from track2. Without your PIN it's impossible to get money from an ATM. If someone makes a copy of your card they HAVE to obtain your PIN somehow - either over-the-shoulder or using a camera for the skimmers.

I know it is NOT in the card....

But you need not look over the shoulder and you need no camera....

This is maybe what they are doing in Thailand, because of lack of technical equipment...

You take it by analysing the traffic between the ATM and the data-center...

They are various possibilities to listen to the connection between ATM and the data-center, however you (or better your equipment) should not be more than 3-5 meter away from the ATM....

Believe me, I know something about it....

Johann

Radioamateur-Station 7J1AQB

Licenced TV/Video technician

[simey]

True, you can trap the message between the ATM and the data centre. Your problem is that the PIN is encrypted under the COMMs key, which is exchanged with the ATM daily encrypted under the ATM master key. As of this year most ATMs use the 3DES algorithm which, the lastest estimates for cracking this using the 'test any key' approach is 27 years....

Get the feeling I also know a lot about this?