Sufficiency Economics

[Mobi]

I understand the general concepts of capitalism and market forces:

I also have a fair appreciation of how socialist or communist economics should work.

yet with all the thousands of words written about the 'Sufficiency Economy', I've yet to read or hear anyone explain it in a way that is comprehensible to this ageing brain.

Mr Somkid, was ostensibly going to do just that, but decided to resign instead. Maybe he resigned because he too couldn't explain it?

Any economic genius out there who would like to have a go?

[kmart]

Erm,... "We're too inept / crooked to compete or trade with the rest of the world. Lets go back to agrarian simplistics so we don't have to improve education levels and have the next generation of kids ask awkward questions....?"

F#cked if I know.

[Tywais]

Just a reminder to members who reply here to remember forum rules regarding discussion of the royal family.

[wintermute]

I understand the general concepts of capitalism and market forces:

I also have a fair appreciation of how socialist or communist economics should work.

yet with all the thousands of words written about the 'Sufficiency Economy', I've yet to read or hear anyone explain it in a way that is comprehensible to this ageing brain.

Mr Somkid, was ostensibly going to do just that, but decided to resign instead. Maybe he resigned because he too couldn't explain it?

Any economic genius out there who would like to have a go?

This has been discussed to death but i'll give it one more go..

Sufficiency economy was an idea set forth by you know who and it was probably meant as a well intentioned way of life for the rural farmers of Thailand. In the past year or so various Thai politicians and pundits have decided to make it the de facto economic policy of the country. It's debatable whether or not it was meant to be applied widely to the entire country. Internationally, everyone from Bloomberg, the Economist, and Wall street Journal have all lambasted the whole "policy" as being extremely vague and protectionist in tone. Many Thai academics are divided over the issue, some have come out to defend it but even they are unable to discuss it in sound economic terms. They often throw around vague catchphrases and philosophical gimmicks to explain it but there is very little fundamental or technical economic foundation for it.

So in a nutshell in real world economics or business terms "sufficiency theory" has very little application aside from a few common sense philosophies on saving and spending. I feel it's kept vague for a reason because I have a feeling that the current regime is lacking in expertise when it comes to economics or foreign policy. They are just grasping at whatever seems good and is relatively immune to criticism in the Thai media.

[canuckamuck]

Sufficient, adjective:

-enough to meet the needs under the law of a situation or a proposed end

-of a quantity that can fulfill a need or requirement but without being abundant

Not exactly the end of the rainbow

[kmart]

So in a nutshell in real world economics or business terms "sufficiency theory" has very little application aside from a few common sense philosophies on saving and spending. I feel it's kept vague for a reason because I have a feeling that the current regime is lacking in expertise when it comes to economics or foreign policy. They are just grasping at whatever seems good and is relatively immune to criticism in the Thai media.

Well said. No wonder Somkid resigned. How could anyone explain that to foreign investors....?

[ThaiGoon]

Well said. No wonder Somkid resigned. How could anyone explain that to foreign investors....?

He resigned because of political pressure.

[Ned]

Managing greed.

[Mobi]

Well said. No wonder Somkid resigned. How could anyone explain that to foreign investors....?

He resigned because of political pressure.

Yes, I know that.

But in some ways it's a pity that he didn't stay long enough to elucidate on the subject. It might hjave been interesting to see what he had to say.

[ThaiGoon]

Managing greed.

In a nutshell, it's capitalism with morals.

[wintermute]

Managing greed.

The issue here is it seems to be a rather one sided management of greed. Those that have status and money already can invest abroad enriching themselves without actually growing the Thai economy. The have nots will be stuck in a vicious endless cycle of low skill manufacturing jobs and poverty. The buddhist middle path is in a way similar to early confucian ideals of being "satisfied" with your station in life.

It's an ideology that's fundamentally opposed to competition or progress.

[wintermute]

Managing greed.

In a nutshell, it's capitalism with morals.

You should read some Adam Smith sometime.

Here's a quote to get you started:

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.

As every individual, therefore, endeavours as much as he can both to employ his capital in the support of domestic industry, and so to direct that industry that its produce may be of the greatest value; every individual necessarily labours to render the annual value of society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was no part of it. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good. It is an affectation, indeed, not very common among merchants, and very few words need be employed in dissuading them from it.

Edited February 24, 2007 by wintermute

[ThaiGoon]

You should read some Adam Smith sometime.

Already have when I took a few econ classes during my undergrad studies, and it said absolutely nothing about the impacts on the environment, managing greed, being considerate to employees/labourers etc. Nothing about the invisible hand having morals. A lot of things about doing the best for your own interest though.

[ThaiGoon]

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.

Yeah, in a nutshell, do your best for your own interest. A lot of morals in that there.

[wintermute]

You should read some Adam Smith sometime.

Already have when I took a few econ classes during my undergrad studies, and it said absolutely nothing about the impacts on the environment, managing greed, being considerate to employees/labourers etc. Nothing about the invisible hand having morals. A lot of things about doing the best for your own interest though.

Read about business law and how the fundamentals of law are impacted by a burgeoning productive middle class. I suggest you start with Kant's classic theories on democracy and morality and work your way to Ronald Dworkin. Really, educate yourself on this and realize that some of those "evil" foreign societies in fact have a lot of good points that Thailand would do well to observe.

[ThaiGoon]

Managing greed.

The issue here is it seems to be a rather one sided management of greed. Those that have status and money already can invest abroad enriching themselves without actually growing the Thai economy. The have nots will be stuck in a vicious endless cycle of low skill manufacturing jobs and poverty. The buddhist middle path is in a way similar to early confucian ideals of being "satisfied" with your station in life.

It's an ideology that's fundamentally opposed to competition or progress.

The middle path is a lot more than that. It can be applied to anything in the way you conduct your life. Your simplified interpretation of it is really insulting to Buddhism and really shows how ignorant and pompous you are.

[wintermute]

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.

Yeah, in a nutshell, do your best for your own interest. A lot of morals in that there.

Well, it sounds like that quote just went straight over your head. I'm not surprised though.

[wintermute]

Managing greed.

The issue here is it seems to be a rather one sided management of greed. Those that have status and money already can invest abroad enriching themselves without actually growing the Thai economy. The have nots will be stuck in a vicious endless cycle of low skill manufacturing jobs and poverty. The buddhist middle path is in a way similar to early confucian ideals of being "satisfied" with your station in life.

It's an ideology that's fundamentally opposed to competition or progress.

The middle path is a lot more than that. It can be applied to anything in the way you conduct your life. Your simplified interpretation of it is really insulting to Buddhism and really shows how ignorant and pompous you are.

Can you debate anything without engaging in ad hominem attacks? You are really just showing your ignorance here.

[chownah]

My view is that sufficiency economy is a philosophy meant primarily for those people in Thailand who have been disenfranchised from the mainstream capitalist system which the ruling class is promoting. There are alot of farmers whose lives really are not benefited by the mainstream economic jockeying of the gov't. Traditionally these people often starved (remember there used to be a serious famine, with deaths, in Isaan) but recently not so many people are starving so there has been some improvement but by and large these marginally educated or uneducated people seem to be only an after thought for the powers that be. In good times these rural poor do ok but when times get tough they will be the first to suffer. My view is that sufficiency economy is meant mostly to help these people.....of course it would be nice if people with better circumstances would follow this philosophy too but in Thailand what I seem to see is that the power elite is mostly interested in increasing their power and not interested in dealing with humanity in a humane way.

Chownah

[ThaiGoon]

Well, it sounds like that quote just went straight over your head. I'm not surprised though.

Breathe and reread this.

"By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it."

And try to think how does it not, in a nutshell, mean that everyone just does his best for his own interest and then, as a side effect, the society will be better?

Breathe and think. Yeah, a lot of morals in there.

[Mobi]

Slightly off topic, but as I started it, maybe I can allow myself a little leeway

There was avery interesting segment on CNN the other day about graduate students in China unable to find jobs. The whole thrust of the piece was that even students with first class degrees were struggling to find jobs because they had no vocational qulaifications. Basically, the major companies couldn't care two hoots about academic degrees, they wanted people with experience, or vocational qualifications.

Some students had decided to go the vocational route after spending years getting their degrees, and yet more were either unemployed, or took jobs as maids or similar menial positions.

I thought what a difference that is to Thailand, where the degree is king, and you can't even get on the first rung of the employment ladder without one. Even for assembly jobs in factories, the employers demand a certain level of education, and without it, you are condemned forever to the most menial of positions.

What a joke when degrees in Thailand mean virtually nothing in terms of ability or aptitude to do the job. All they mean is that the parents had enough money to buy their kids through university, and, most probably buy the degrees as well.

Maybe that's what the sufficiency economy is all about. Just do sufficient in business to maintain the status quo - through personal connections, nepotism and unfair employment selection.

Edited February 24, 2007 by Mobi D'Ark

[ThaiGoon]

Can you debate anything without engaging in ad hominem attacks? You are really just showing your ignorance here.

Yeah I was the one who judged other people's religious philosophies/beliefs when I myself half understood them.

Edited February 24, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[wintermute]

Well, it sounds like that quote just went straight over your head. I'm not surprised though.

Breathe and reread this.

"By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it."

And try to think how does it not, in a nutshell, mean that everyone just does his best for his own interest and then, as a side effect, the society will be better?

Breathe and think. Yeah, a lot of morals in there.

You're taking one single sentence of the entire quote out of context and then basically condemning the entire principle behind capitalism and a free market. Yeah, you sure told me. Ever heard of the phrase "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" ? you're too far underequipped in this debate. I just hope that education you're spending your money on in the U.S. broadens your horizons slightly more in the next few years before you come back.

[ThaiGoon]

Slightly off topic, but as I started it, maybe I can allow myself a little leeway

There was avery interesting segment on CNN the other day about graduate students in China unable to find jobs. The whole thrust of the piece was that even students with first class degrees were struggling to find jobs because they had no vocational qulaifications. Basically, the major companies couldn't care two hoots about academic degrees, they wanted people with experience, or vocational qualifications.

Some students had decided to go the vocational route after spending years getting their degrees, and yet more were either unemployed, or took jobs as maids or similar menial positions.

I thought what a difference that is to Thailand, where the degree is king, and you can't even get on the first rung of the employment ladder without one. Even for assembly jobs in factories, the employers demand a certain level of education, and without it, you are condemned forever to the most menial of positions.

What a joke when degrees in Thailand mean virtually nothing in terms of ability or aptitude to do the job. All they mean is that the parents had enough money to buy their kids through university, and, most probably buy the degrees as well.

Maybe that's what the sufficiency economy is all about. Just do sufficient in business to maintain the status quo - through personal connections, nepotism and unfair employment selection.

What I don't get is how some people on here always associate sufficiency economy with general malpractices in Thailand. Sufficiency economy was never as a wide spread philosophy as it is now in Thailand. Yet, on this forum, it can be contributed to everything that's wrong in Thai economy.

If you already have a firm belief of what it is, why did you bother to ask for other opinions?

[toptuan]

You should read some Adam Smith sometime.

Already have when I took a few econ classes during my undergrad studies, and it said absolutely nothing about the impacts on the environment, managing greed, being considerate to employees/labourers etc. Nothing about the invisible hand having morals. A lot of things about doing the best for your own interest though.

Then, sorry, you took your training in institution(s) that are behind the times.

Current MBA and economics programs in most of the reputable schools in the West now include curricula which discuss these points of responsibility. I have done a recent review of MBA programs in the USA with a prospective student candidate, and have been pleasantly surprised at course descriptions which contain study units such as: "Balancing Profit with Environmental Responsibility," "Business Ethics," "Employee Morale," etc.

Get with the program, and join us in the 21st century! ( In the west, at least. ) And no, I haven't seen courses in Thailand (MBA or undergrad) which include this type of curricula, as yet. Sadly, Thailand's business curricula at the college and university level is stuck somewhere back in the 50's and 60's. Maybe you noticed the evidence of that during the last Minister of Finance fiasco that shook the foreign investment community to the core and sent the Thai stock market into a tailspin? No? A serious foible that should have been addressed in that freshman course, Economics 101.

Edited February 24, 2007 by toptuan

[ColPyat]

My view is that sufficiency economy is a philosophy meant primarily for those people in Thailand who have been disenfranchised from the mainstream capitalist system which the ruling class is promoting.

And for these people it does work very well. It is though rather ironic that with all this talk about sufficiency economy, nobody gives them the land they would need in order to do exactly that.

One should not forget though that certain conditions have to be met - the land has to be safe from floods, as this elaborate sytem cannot be done on flood prone land. Which does exclude large parts of Thailand.

Basically - it works for some sectors of the society, when particular conditions are met.

As for sufficiency policy as national economy, nobody has been able to explain it to me sufficiently enough to understand what it could possibly mean, and i find that the wide criticism is well deserved.

It's just part of the jingoism spread by the present government.

[ThaiGoon]

My view is that sufficiency economy is a philosophy meant primarily for those people in Thailand who have been disenfranchised from the mainstream capitalist system which the ruling class is promoting. There are alot of farmers whose lives really are not benefited by the mainstream economic jockeying of the gov't. Traditionally these people often starved (remember there used to be a serious famine, with deaths, in Isaan) but recently not so many people are starving so there has been some improvement but by and large these marginally educated or uneducated people seem to be only an after thought for the powers that be. In good times these rural poor do ok but when times get tough they will be the first to suffer. My view is that sufficiency economy is meant mostly to help these people.....of course it would be nice if people with better circumstances would follow this philosophy too but in Thailand what I seem to see is that the power elite is mostly interested in increasing their power and not interested in dealing with humanity in a humane way.

Chownah

It might help if you could only look at the philosophy itself, not the politicians who are trying to implement it....especially when you already have preconceived notions about the said politicians.

By the way, I believe that sufficiency economy as meant by our King is for everyone in Thailand. If you wanna drag politics into it, that's another matter entirely though imo.

[ThaiGoon]

Then you took your training in institution(s) that are behind the times.

Current MBA and economics programs in most of the reputable schools in the West now include curricula which discuss these points of responsibility. I have done a recent review of MBA programs in the USA with a prospective student candidate, and have been pleasantly surprised at course descriptions which contain such study units such as: "Balancing Profit with Environmental Responsibility," "Business Ethics," "Employee Morale," etc.

Get with the program, and join us in the 21st century! (In the West, at least).

I thought we were talking about Adam Smith only not what's been taught in MBA schools? Besides I only took a few econ classes to fulfil my humanity course requirements. So I reall didn't bother to look at those MBA classes much as my major was electrical engineering.

[wintermute]

Basically - it works for some sectors of the society, when particular conditions are met.

As for sufficiency policy as national economy, nobody has been able to explain it to me sufficiently enough to understand what it could possibly mean, and i find that the wide criticism is well deserved.

It's just part of the jingoism spread by the present government.

It's also a principle that's relatively immune to criticism in Thailand because of its origins. Any economic principle that cannot be evaluated or criticized for its effectiveness is in effect already doomed to failure because of its lack of transparency. In order to argue for morality in capitalism and free market a society has to reform its entire culture of corruption and malfeasance first.

[ThaiGoon]

You're taking one single sentence of the entire quote out of context and then basically condemning the entire principle behind capitalism and a free market. Yeah, you sure told me. Ever heard of the phrase "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" ? you're too far underequipped in this debate. I just hope that education you're spending your money on in the U.S. broadens your horizons slightly more in the next few years before you come back.

Might help if you at least put your own input on the subject instead of this usual crap. And the education I'm getting is fine, It at least has tought me to think and respect other cultures/religious beliefs.