Retirement extension: switch from 800k to income method

[zombie nights]

So if I want to use the income method for my 1 year extension instead of the 800,000 in the bank what I need to do is transfer a minimum of the equivalent of 65,000 baht from overseas into my bank in Thailand for a period of 12 month?

is that right.?

I am with the Bangkok Bank so what I need to do is get them to provide say a bank letter or statement to confirm that 65,000 or more went into my account for each and every month over a year and the sums came from overseas?

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by zombie nights

[scubascuba3]

It appears the banks are providing the usual bog standard letter, no verification of monthly transfers. Statements will be required and you can fight it out with the immigration officer

[Sheryl]

Some banks will include a paragraph about the monthly transfers and origin of the funds if you explain clearly what you need and if the info on origin of the funds is in their system. 

 

You can also get a detailed 12 month statement from them, stamped.

 

The tricky thing -- aside from fund origin if not using SWIFT transfers - is switching from one method to the other if you have not previously been having monthly transfers of 65K in, which most people using the 800K method will not have had (I, for example, was doing one transfer a year).

 

Since we are now restricted in use of the 800K, you would have to bring in 800K, leave it unspent for 3 months and not more than half spent the rest of the time (to meet the 1st year requirement) AND transfer in 65K each month for 12 months to meet the next year's requirement. This will mean bringing in way more money that you need given the starting balance of 800K as well as requirement to keep a balance of first 800 and then 400K.  Of course you could send back some of the money to use for transferring in, but will incur transfer feeds and losses due to currency conversion. The monthly transfers, since it appears they have to be SWIFT transfers, will also have considerable transfer fees involved.

 

It's a mess...and we have yet to see how various IOs will interpret all of this.

[TheThai]

The problem seems to be that EACH IO is interpreting the situation differently.  There really isn't any stipulation that the monthly income has to be proven to be sent from overseas.  That is purely the forum members speculation.  It's either showing 65k transfers or the 800k method as described.

The rule states " Must have evidence of having income of no less than THB 65,000 or;  

[ubonjoe]

18 minutes ago, TheThai said:

There really isn't any stipulation that the monthly income has to be proven to be sent from overseas. 

The amendment to police order 138/2557 does state it has to come from overseas.

[scubascuba3]

The amendment to police order 138/2557 does state it has to come from overseas.

combination method is still allowed? people don't seem to be discussing it much

[wgdanson]

37 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Some banks will include a paragraph about the monthly transfers and origin of the funds if you explain clearly what you need and if the info on origin of the funds is in their system. 

 

You can also get a detailed 12 month statement from them, stamped.

 

The tricky thing -- aside from fund origin if not using SWIFT transfers - is switching from one method to the other if you have not previously been having monthly transfers of 65K in, which most people using the 800K method will not have had (I, for example, was doing one transfer a year).

 

Since we are now restricted in use of the 800K, you would have to bring in 800K, leave it unspent for 3 months and not more than half spent the rest of the time (to meet the 1st year requirement) AND transfer in 65K each month for 12 months to meet the next year's requirement. This will mean bringing in way more money that you need given the starting balance of 800K as well as requirement to keep a balance of first 800 and then 400K.  Of course you could send back some of the money to use for transferring in, but will incur transfer feeds and losses due to currency conversion. The monthly transfers, since it appears they have to be SWIFT transfers, will also have considerable transfer fees involved.

 

It's a mess...and we have yet to see how various IOs will interpret all of this.

I am a bit confused Sheryl. I did my last extension in December using an Embassy letter, so now I am doing 65k per month from UK to Bkk Bank via T'wise, and all say FTT.

But how does what you have said work please? Say I did extension in December 2018 using 800k in the bank. Now could I simply do the same as I am doing now and import 65k monthly and spend the 800k, or send it back?

[wgdanson]

1 minute ago, scubascuba3 said:

12 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The amendment to police order 138/2557 does state it has to come from overseas.

combination method is still allowed? people don't seem to be discussing it much

Yes scuba man. Could someone put say 50k per month from abroad into his Thai account, all saying FTT, then in month 9 when 450k has been transferred with 3 x 50 to go, and have spent some of that money for living,  before end of the year, bang 200k into an account and leave it there. Total into Thai Bank 12 x 50 = 600 + 200k seasoned for three months. Or does the top-up HAVE to be seasoned, can you do it the day before you do your extension? 

[Sheryl]

5 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

I am a bit confused Sheryl. I did my last extension in December using an Embassy letter, so now I am doing 65k per month from UK to Bkk Bank via T'wise, and all say FTT.

But how does what you have said work please? Say I did extension in December 2018 using 800k in the bank. Now could I simply do the same as I am doing now and import 65k monthly and spend the 800k, or send it back?

If you used the Embassy letter then you used the income method, not the 800K method.

 

Yes, if you had already extended in December using 800K and then immediately started bringing in 65K a month, you'd be all set for using the income method at next extension (and could presumably spend the 800K since this predated the new 800K rules -- though I will not be surprised if that becomes an issue in some places).  The only issue you may face is that you may have some months were the transfers are not coded FTT - there is no guarantee of that using TW.

 

But few people would have used 800K and then started bringing in 65k a month already. Most people thinking of changing from 800k to 65k monthly are thinking of it only in the past few days after the 800 method suddenly became difficult. in fact, before this it was the opposite, people were thinking of switching from monthly method to 800K and being encouraged in many cases by IOs to do so as that seemed the easier approach. And most of us will nto have time to make 12 months of transfers before our next extension, we will have to do an 800K extension first, falling under the restrictions on spending, while starting  the monthly transfers, since as far as anyone can figureo ut the spending limit will be applied when you next come in to renew even if you are at that point changing methods (i.e. if your last extension was based on 800K they will verify that you kept the required balances even if this new extension is being done based on income...or so one assumes, ti is nto at all clear.)

[Lemonltr]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

It appears the banks are providing the usual bog standard letter, no verification of monthly transfers. Statements will be required and you can fight it out with the immigration officer

Bangkok Bank prints FFT with all incoming foreign transfers which you would think adequate as it appears to signal that. Strangely however FFT is not listed among the bank codes in the bank book. 

Also re statements - surely a bank book Is a statement in book form. If immigration had insisted on seeing the bank book instead of a bank letter any agent circumvention would be impossible. Deliberate? 

[Sheryl]

8 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Yes scuba man. Could someone put say 50k per month from abroad into his Thai account, all saying FTT, then in month 9 when 450k has been transferred with 3 x 50 to go, and have spent some of that money for living,  before end of the year, bang 200k into an account and leave it there. Total into Thai Bank 12 x 50 = 600 + 200k seasoned for three months. Or does the top-up HAVE to be seasoned, can you do it the day before you do your extension? 

I think what the last para of the new police order is saying is that the top up amount has to be seasoned in the same way as the 800K. But it is worded very, very poorly and god only knows how IOs will interpret it, the wording could also be taken to mean that with the combo method as well you have to have 800k then 400k balance....thougyh that akes little sense.

 

In my experience when IOs are nto sure how to interpret something they prefer to avoid dealing with it altogether rather than either ask their superiors or risk being wrong. So we may find new reluctance to allow the combo method.

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, Lemonltr said:

Bangkok Bank prints FFT with all incoming foreign transfers which you would think adequate as it appears to signal that. Strangely however FFT is not listed among the bank codes in the bank book. 

Also re statements - surely a bank book Is a statement in book form. If immigration had insisted on seeing the bank book instead of a bank letter any agent circumvention would be impossible. Deliberate? 

1.  It is an incoming foreign transfer only if it did nto first go to a different domestic bank. With Transferwise it occasionally does in which event it is listed as a domestic transfer, and people with BB accounts using TW has confirmed that this has happened with some of their transfers. Hence the problem.

 

2.  Most IOs DO insist on seeing the bank book and go over it closely. I've used 4 different Imm offices over the past say 15 years and all of them did. I have not heard of anyplace that takes bank letter only without statement or bank book. But apparently in places using agents,  when an agent is involved "normal" procedures are magically waived. No reason to think this will change as no apparent crack down on agents. Just more convoluted normal procedures to be waived/falsified.

[scubascuba3]

1.  It is an incoming foreign transfer only if it did nto first go to a different domestic bank. With Transferwise it occasionally does in which event it is listed as a domestic transfer, and people with BB accounts using TW has confirmed that this has happened with some of their transfers. Hence the problem.
 
2.  Most IOs DO insist on seeing the bank book and go over it closely. I've used 4 different Imm offices over the past say 15 years and all of them did. I have not heard of anyplace that takes bank letter only without statement or bank book. But apparently in places using agents,  when an agent is involved "normal" procedures are magically waived. No reason to think this will change as no apparent crack down on agents. Just more convoluted normal procedures to be waived/falsified.

The problem with bank books is they consolidate transactions so i can understand if the IO doesn't want to accept

[scubascuba3]

Yes scuba man. Could someone put say 50k per month from abroad into his Thai account, all saying FTT, then in month 9 when 450k has been transferred with 3 x 50 to go, and have spent some of that money for living,  before end of the year, bang 200k into an account and leave it there. Total into Thai Bank 12 x 50 = 600 + 200k seasoned for three months. Or does the top-up HAVE to be seasoned, can you do it the day before you do your extension? 

Good question. What you say makes sense and is logical. Will it be accepted? no one knows it seems, we better all start going to temples

 

 

 

[wgdanson]

14 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

17 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

1.  It is an incoming foreign transfer only if it did nto first go to a different domestic bank. With Transferwise it occasionally does in which event it is listed as a domestic transfer, and people with BB accounts using TW has confirmed that this has happened with some of their transfers. Hence the problem.
 
2.  Most IOs DO insist on seeing the bank book and go over it closely. I've used 4 different Imm offices over the past say 15 years and all of them did. I have not heard of anyplace that takes bank letter only without statement or bank book. But apparently in places using agents,  when an agent is involved "normal" procedures are magically waived. No reason to think this will change as no apparent crack down on agents. Just more convoluted normal procedures to be waived/falsified.

The problem with bank books is they consolidate transactions so i can understand if the IO doesn't want to accept

Update your book every month without fail.

[skatewash]

Yes, this is a very interesting question that I'm currently thinking about.  A lot depends on how the new rule is enforced.

 

If, as it appears likely, the new rule is enforced retrospectively, in other words, the check whether you have complied with the new rules isn't done until you apply for your new extension of stay, then this would be my plan.  I have made conservative assumptions,  expecting the requirements to be enforced rigorously.

 

M is the month in which you apply for your extension.

M-2 is two months before, M+1 is one month after you apply for your extension, etc.

I budget monthly expenses at 60K, in reality, they are lower than that.

The following schedule keeps an 800K balance for 5 months (2 before and 3 after application) and it keeps a 400K balance for the whole year.  It also shows 12x65K transfers, one each month.  At two points in the year, I DeeMoney transfer back 400K to the home country and invest it.

I get a lump-sum extension the first year and a monthly deposit extension the second year.

 

            Bank Balance   Transfer   Expenses  Action

M-2:      800K+ 120K       none      60K

M-1:      800K+  60K       none       60K

M:        800K+  65K       1st 65K    60K        Get extension based on lump-sum

M+1:     800K+  70K       2nd 65K   60K

M+2:     800K+  75K       3rd 65K   60K

M+3:     800K+  80K       4th 65K   60K       (end of 800K requirement)

M+4:     400K+  85K       5th 65K   60K       DeeMoney transfer 400K back home                        M+5:     400K+  90K       6th 65K   60K

M+6:     400K+  95K       7th 65K   60K

M+7:      400K+  100K     8th 65K   60K

M+8:      400K+  105K     9th 65K   60K

M+9:      400K+  110K     10th 65K  60K

M+10:     400K+  115K     11th 65K   60K

M+11:      400K+  120K    12th 65K   60K     now have accomplished 12x65K transfers

M:          400K+  125K     1st 65K    60K     Get extension based on monthly deposit AND

                                                             DeeMoney transfer 400K back home

M+1:       0K+      130K     2nd 65K  60K

 

I'm fortunate enough to have a Vanguard account so for me, a SWIFT transfer cost only $10 flat fee per transfer.  The new monthly deposit method will cost $110 more than the old lump-sum method, but after a year of transition, I will be in full charge of all the money in my bank account (no sequestration or seasoning).

[skatewash]

37 minutes ago, Lemonltr said:

Bangkok Bank prints FFT with all incoming foreign transfers which you would think adequate as it appears to signal that. Strangely however FFT is not listed among the bank codes in the bank book. 

Also re statements - surely a bank book Is a statement in book form. If immigration had insisted on seeing the bank book instead of a bank letter any agent circumvention would be impossible. Deliberate? 

The passbook is problematic because if one does not update it frequently enough it's possible to get a "consolidated entry" which is a summary of multiple transactions rolled into one line.  It's a problem because it is impossible to determine if the balance dropped below the threshold at some point in the period represented by the consolidated entry.  Also, update machines can make a mess of your passbook when you use the automated update machines, even having the cashier do the update could do the same.

 

That is why in Phuket the IO demands to see a bank-stamped bank-issued statement of your account.  Plus they demand to see the passbook itself.  The like it when the numbers match in both of these with the balance quoted in your bank letter.

[skatewash]

43 minutes ago, Lemonltr said:

Bangkok Bank prints FFT with all incoming foreign transfers which you would think adequate as it appears to signal that. Strangely however FFT is not listed among the bank codes in the bank book. 

Also re statements - surely a bank book Is a statement in book form. If immigration had insisted on seeing the bank book instead of a bank letter any agent circumvention would be impossible. Deliberate? 

Bangkok code FTT Foreign Telegraphic Transaction or Foreign Transfer Transaction is specified online by Bangkok Bank and used in their passbooks but not explained in the legend printed in their passbooks.

[Sheryl]

23 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Yes, this is a very interesting question that I'm currently thinking about.  A lot depends on how the new rule is enforced.

 

If, as it appears likely, the new rule is enforced retrospectively, in other words, the check whether you have complied with the new rules isn't done until you apply for your new extension of stay, then this would be my plan.  I have made conservative assumptions,  expecting the requirements to be enforced rigorously.

 

M is the month in which you apply for your extension.

M-2 is two months before, M+1 is one month after you apply for your extension, etc.

I budget monthly expenses at 60K, in reality, they are lower than that.

The following schedule keeps an 800K balance for 5 months (2 before and 3 after application) and it keeps a 400K balance for the whole year.  It also shows 12x65K transfers, one each month.  At two points in the year, I DeeMoney transfer back 400K to the home country and invest it.

I get a lump-sum extension the first year and a monthly deposit extension the second year.

 

            Bank Balance   Transfer   Expenses  Action

M-2:      800K+ 120K       none      60K

M-1:      800K+  60K       none       60K

M:        800K+  65K       1st 65K    60K        Get extension based on lump-sum

M+1:     800K+  70K       2nd 65K   60K

M+2:     800K+  75K       3rd 65K   60K

M+3:     800K+  80K       4th 65K   60K       (end of 800K requirement)

M+4:     400K+  85K       5th 65K   60K       DeeMoney transfer 400K back home                        M+5:     400K+  90K       6th 65K   60K

M+6:     400K+  95K       7th 65K   60K

M+7:      400K+  100K     8th 65K   60K

M+8:      400K+  105K     9th 65K   60K

M+9:      400K+  110K     10th 65K  60K

M+10:     400K+  115K     11th 65K   60K

M+11:      400K+  120K    12th 65K   60K     now have accomplished 12x65K transfers

M:          400K+  125K     1st 65K    60K     Get extension based on monthly deposit AND

                                                             DeeMoney transfer 400K back home

M+1:       0K+      130K     2nd 65K  60K

 

I'm fortunate enough to have a Vanguard account so for me, a SWIFT transfer cost only $10 flat fee per transfer.  The new monthly deposit method will cost $110 more than the old lump-sum method, but after a year of transition, I will be in full charge of all the money in my bank account (no sequestration or seasoning).

Thanks for printing that out as it is useful.

 

This is sort of what I have been thinking of, but in my case transfers are much more costly ($40-45). One option I have is to wait for the new US Social Security international direct deposit before initiating the monthly transfers, but as my SS alone is only around 60-62K I would then either have to either use combo method or make additional monthly transfers. The additional transfers would  incur a lot of transaction costs to move just small amounts of money each month. And the new rules for the combo method are so garbled that it is impossible to know how IOs will interpret them.

 

I will probably end up putting 800k into a 3 year fixed deposit (2% interest at Krung Sri) for now and plan on switching over to monthly transfers in the 3rd year of that time, hoping that by then the dust has settled and requirements are more clear.

[Sheryl]

15 minutes ago, skatewash said:

The passbook is problematic because if one does not update it frequently enough it's possible to get a "consolidated entry" which is a summary of multiple transactions rolled into one line.  It's a problem because it is impossible to determine if the balance dropped below the threshold at some point in the period represented by the consolidated entry.  Also, update machines can make a mess of your passbook when you use the automated update machines, even having the cashier do the update could do the same.

 

What I have done when a consolidated entry encompassed a time period where I needed to show balance is gotten s statement for that interval and shown this together with the passbook to the IO, not been a problem, they understood.

 

Better solution of course is just to regularly update. 

 

I asked my bank and it seems it is not the amount of time but the number of transactions that determines when they do the consolidated posting.

[skatewash]

18 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Thanks for printing that out as it is useful.

 

tis is sort of what I have been thinking of, but in my case transfers are much more costly ($40-45). One option I have is to wait for the new US Social Security international direct deposit, but as my SS alone is only around 60-62K I would then either have to sue combo method or make additional monthly transfers, incurring a lot of transaction costs to move just small amounts of money each month.

I'm envisioning all sorts of problems (devil in the details) with the combo method.  Not so much the combo method used with the embassy income letter which I think will be OK going forward, but the combo method used with the new monthly deposit method.  It's fraught with unanswered questions regarding the rules to be followed on minimum monthly deposits and how exactly the reserve amount in the balance has to be seasoned.  It's a rat's nest in my opinion and I wouldn't want to rely on it. 

 

To be clear I have no inside information that it will be impractical for the monthly deposit method, but I'm vaguely conversant with human nature and I think I have an insight into how consistency is enforced in interpretations of rules within and between immigration offices (short answer: it isn't), so that I have little confidence that the rules will be straightforward, favorable, or consistently applied.  The simplest thing for an IO to do is to say that there is no combo method with the monthly deposit method, despite the fact that other interpretations of the guidance memo are possible.  We can barely get immigration to follow the clear rules of police orders, let alone the myriad of fuzzy decisions that will be necessary to enforce the combo method for monthly depositors.

 

Perhaps this would be a good time for the citizens of the UK, US, Australia, and Danmark to drop a note to their embassies to thank them for their bold decision. ????

Edited February 3, 2019 by skatewash

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, TheThai said:

The problem seems to be that EACH IO is interpreting the situation differently.  There really isn't any stipulation that the monthly income has to be proven to be sent from overseas.  That is purely the forum members speculation.  It's either showing 65k transfers or the 800k method as described.

The rule states " Must have evidence of having income of no less than THB 65,000 or;  

How do you figure? Since the new rules have not started yet?

[Sheryl]

11 minutes ago, skatewash said:

I'm envisioning all sorts of problems (devil in the details) with the combo method.  Not so much the combo method used with the embassy income letter which I think will be OK going forward, but the combo method used with the new monthly deposit method.  It's fraught with unanswered questions regarding the rules to be followed on minimum monthly deposits and how exactly the reserve amount in the balance has to be seasoned.  It's a rat's nest in my opinion and I wouldn't want to rely on it. 

 

To be clear I have no inside information that it will be impractical for the monthly deposit method, but I'm vaguely conversant with human nature and I think I have an insight into how consistency is enforced in interpretations of rules within and between immigration offices (short answer: it isn't), so that I have little confidence that the rules will be straightforward, favorable, or consistently applied.  The simplest thing for an IO to do is to say that there is no combo method with the monthly deposit method, despite the fact that other interpretations of the guidance memo are possible.  We can barely get immigration to follow the clear rules of police orders, let alone the myriad of fuzzy decisions that will be necessary to enforce the combo method for monthly depositors....

 

 

Agree completely. My thinking as well.

 

Hence I am leaning towards planning to switch to the combo method only after a couple of years, depending in what I read here of people's experiences.

 

But there are people who do not have the extra savings necessary to do this and who have been using the combo method for years. It will be hard for them.

[phuketrichard]

I have been doing the combo method with letter from us embassy for years.

Everyone talks about bangkok bank showing FFT as the transfer meaning  it came from outside.

SCB ONLY shows  X1 for all my transfers, be they from America OR domestic.

 

soooo.

M plan is wire 130,000 next week for  jan and feb

march /april 65,000,  than go to immigration and ask them if i send in 65 for may and June ( so 6 months as they said for this year they will be lenient),

will that be ok to do my extension July 5th

If in april they say no, still gives me enough time to have the 800,000

Edited February 3, 2019 by phuketrichard

[jacko45k]

On 2/3/2019 at 2:34 PM, skatewash said:

he passbook is problematic because if one does not update it frequently enough it's possible to get a "consolidated entry" which is a summary of multiple transactions rolled into one line.

I think this is the only issue for me. So I put a reminder into my email calendar to go get the bankbook updated. Previously only done 90 days or so before the extension renewal.

[skatewash]

10 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

I think this is the only issue for me. So I put a reminder into my email calendar to go get the bankbook updated. Previously only done 90 days or so before the extension renewal.

Yes, it's good to update your passbook, but if the worst happens and you do get a consolidated entry you can just get a statement from your bank (100-300 baht) that will resolve any problems.  Some immigration offices (Phuket) already require a stamped bank-issued statement in addition to your passbook.

Edited February 5, 2019 by skatewash