I am happy to admit almost complete ignorance of things aeronautical, so I have no clue as to why Thai elected to cancel flights rather than reroute, but it seems there are any number of experts on good old Thai Visa, ready to offer their considered, data-free opinions - as usual.

Some Thai flights did arrive from Europe this morning. BA9  on time, Air France 26 minutes late, KLM cancelled.

Are Thai airways not allowed to fly over China, Kaz and Russia for the European routes. I noticed that they didn't cancel any of their routes to the Middle East. Surely this would involve overflying India at some point. So if they can overfly India then they can use the Southern route to Europe as well. 

8 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

So if they can overfly India then they can use the Southern route to Europe as well. 

Hopefully you have shared this valuable insight with the powers that be at Thai, sure they never thought of this ????

I am not an aviation expert, but surely one could fly to Europe from Bangkok by other "flagship" airlines via the "hubs" of Hong Kong, Kuala Lumphur, Singapore or Tokyo - with a change of plane and not direct of course, avoiding India and Pakistan.

7 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

Are Thai airways not allowed to fly over China, Kaz and Russia for the European routes. I noticed that they didn't cancel any of their routes to the Middle East. Surely this would involve overflying India at some point. So if they can overfly India then they can use the Southern route to Europe as well. 

There would be no need to go via China, BA9 for example flew over Turkey, Iran, down the Persian gulf, over the top of UAE, then across India, entering just North of Mumbai exiting over Bhumbaneswar and on wards to Thailand.

It is a little more problematic if India were to close its airspace, but not impossible, sure it is further and therefore uses more fuel.

If this spat goes on then the airlines will have to find alternatives.

6 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

Are Thai airways not allowed to fly over China, Kaz and Russia for the European routes. I noticed that they didn't cancel any of their routes to the Middle East. Surely this would involve overflying India at some point. So if they can overfly India then they can use the Southern route to Europe as well. 

Not possible. Lack of ATC over western Tibet and of course the Himalayas are a major obstacle and are avoided. Back in the 90s a new route from BKK to Europe was proposed, Lima777. North to Chiang Mai then Tibet etc. It was estimated that it would save a lot in fuel. Qantas actually did a proving flight but for some reason, probably Chinese ATC problems (military unhappy ?), it was never implemented.

7 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

Are Thai airways not allowed to fly over China, Kaz and Russia for the European routes. I noticed that they didn't cancel any of their routes to the Middle East. Surely this would involve overflying India at some point. So if they can overfly India then they can use the Southern route to Europe as well. 

China airspace is essentially closed to  most airlines. Only a few route corridors to and from China  airports are allowed. These corridors are congested.  Russian flights are currently disrupted with flights to and from Asia delayed or cancelled.

 

2 hours ago, donmuang2 said:

What???

All other airlines are flying via UAE.

Why is that not possible for Thai Airways?

Their lawyers will have hard times to explain if somebody claims acc. flight compensation regulation 261/2004

Rubbish. Aeroflot, EVA, FinnAir are not. 

Airlines are not obliged to fly under these circumstances and your reference  to 261 /2004  is meaningless. The flight routes are filed and established. The rules apply to scheduled flights on the established and approved routes.

 

2 hours ago, Ossy said:

Other airlines, meanwhile, get their brains together and discuss and resolve ways of flying AROUND Pakistan, including arranging new stop-overs and fueling requirements. But that needs people to think, plan and arrange . . . way over THAI's heads, it would seem, as they set about cutting SE Asia off from the western world.

Thai did nothing wrong. In fact it did the right thing to avoid a region where it was likely that a war could occur.  I remind you of MH17 / KLM 4103 that was lost because people were too arrogant to appreciate that there was a danger in flying  near a war zone. After that tragedy, no responsible airline will fly near an active war zone.

 

21 minutes ago, tso310 said:

Its only Thai that has completely stopped. They did say last night that they were trying to get routing via the southern route. Looks like European airline departures to BKK today are still scheduled.

Thai did not completely stop and it was not alone. Thai's flights within Asia were operating. Other airlines did what Thai did.

 

 

 

 

Message from Qatar Airways:

"Airspace over all of Pakistan has been closed until further notice due to an escalation in India-Pakistan tensions. This has resulted in Qatar Airways flights to Peshawar, Faisalabad, Islamabad, Karachi, Lahore, Multan and Sialkot may be delayed or suspended until further notice. 

Flights to other destinations close to this region may experience delays as they divert around the closed airspace".

 

No too difficult to re-schedule - som nam na.

11 minutes ago, CGW said:

Hopefully you have shared this valuable insight with the powers that be at Thai, sure they never thought of this ????

Just saying, Drastic move to cancel that amount of flights. It was the easy and cheapest way out. If you don't think it was for financial reasons then you are a true believer in BS.  Emirates only cancelled their flights to Pakistan. 

 

27^th February

·         EK637 Peshawar- Dubai

·         EK601 Karachi- Dubai

·         EK602 and EK603 Dubai- Karachi- Dubai

·         EK608 and EK609 Dubai- Karachi- Dubai

·         EK606 Dubai- Karachi

·         EK640 and EK641 Dubai- Kabul- Dubai

·         EK614 Dubai- Islamabad

·         EK622 Dubai- Lahore

·         EK8618 and EK8619 Dubai- Lahore- Dubai

28^th February

·         EK604 and EK605 Dubai- Karachi- Dubai

·        EK600 and EK601 Dubai- Karachi- Dubai

·         EK607 Karachi- Dubai

·         EK615 Islamabad- Dubai

·         EK612 and EK613 Dubai- Islamabad-Dubai

·         EK623 Lahore- Dubai

·         EK636 and EK637 Dubai- Peshawar- Dubai

·         EK620 and EK621 Dubai- Sialkot- Dubai

1 hour ago, varun said:

Typical Thai knee-jerk-shoot-self-in-the-foot mentality.

 

There is no reason why the planes can't re-route to a new flight vector,

but that would involve  'think too mutt'

 

 

KLM. the Royal Dutch Airline, also cancelled 2 flights yesterday. The Dutch are not usually of a " knee-jerkery", disposition, I think.....

Edited February 28, 20197 yr by Bullie

11 minutes ago, Bullie said:

KLM. the Royal Dutch Airline, also cancelled 2 flights yesterday. The Dutch are not usually of a " knee-jerkery", disposition, I think.....

and yet there partner/boss Air France is running as normal.

27 minutes ago, Burma Bill said:

I am not an aviation expert, but surely one could fly to Europe from Bangkok by other "flagship" airlines via the "hubs" of Hong Kong, Kuala Lumphur, Singapore or Tokyo - with a change of plane and not direct of course, avoiding India and Pakistan.

What you surely are not, my dear sir, is someone with any knowledge of aviation at all.

Re-routing is not "just" taking another highway in the sky. Congestion is a real issue here, including the risk of mid-air collisions. Then there is the amount of fuel to consider, securing landing slots, and possibly rights....costs involved, etc.  The list goes on, but these things are not dealt with in minutes, on this scale.

1 hour ago, tso310 said:

Apparently yesterdays BA10 had to stop for refueling en route at Bucharest. The flight was over northern India so a large divert. BA9 would be properly fueled for todays flight.

BA & AF made it in this morning from yesterday afternoon/evening flights. Looks like KLM cancelled? LH, FIN and more TK on the way in now same routing. Big swing south over Iran to near Dubai then across mid-southern India. Syria still has to be avoided so not so easy. Obviously doable if TG get their act together. Yes will burn a bit more fuel.

Edited February 28, 20197 yr by nauseus

Just now, tso310 said:

and yet there partner/boss Air France is running as normal.

They are NOT the boss of us! As a matter of fact, the Dutch government sneakely bought a lot of extra shares yesterday, equaling the french government's involvement...

But yes, I'm puzzled over this too, it's usually the french that are good at trying to stay out of trouble....

They went to a great deal of trouble in the past to earn the nick-name "surrender-monkeys", so why not now?

2 hours ago, A Skeptic said:

I am an ex intercontinental airline captain (B747) with considerable experience of flying from/to SE Asia and Europe. There is not a single reason why Thai International Airways could not re-route around Pakistan and northern India. It's even quite possible, if you want, to avoid India completely. I've done it, usually at the planning stage, but once in mid flight. Other airlines on that route must be rubbing their hands together with glee

Yes it can be done, but it comes at a cost. Airlines are not charities and  if they have to reroute adding 1-2 hours for a route it will have an impact on the viability of some routes. Your plan does not take into account the additional cost of fuel;

The Platts cost  per ton of fuel for Asia Pacific is approx. US$640/mt

B777- 8mt/hour  US$5120  at 2 hours = $10,240

B787- 6mt/hour  US $3840 at 2 hours = $7,680

 

There will be an impact  upon crew hours and some crews will time out especially if there are delays due to congestion arising from more aircraft on fewer routes. If the aircraft must  land for  refueling, there are additional landing fees and third party servicing requirements. Take a cheap airport like AUH which has the capacity for refueling,  there would be a minimum cost of $3,000 in landing fees. If the pax are unloaded during refueling or a gate and parking is required, that can easily  add another US$2,000. There will be third party service fees to pay to take care of this which will easily add another US$2500-$5,000 per flight especially if  <deleted> and premium class pax expect access to a lounge.  The extra time required will interfere with onward  flight connection schedules. There is a reason why TG arrives early AM into ZUR or  in the afternoon at FRA etc.  The  screwed up schedules could easily add extra costs.

 

As you should well know, airline schedules are structured to maximize the use of an aircraft. Longer routes  will require a change in the airfares.   

 

 TG has some of the lowest airfares on the nonstop LHR-BKK route. Let's take  typical  discount  Y fare (pricing out in S,T,K etc.) at US$878.

A B787 has about 200 Y seats.  The additional operating costs could easily increase the  Y fares by 10%.  Once that happens, this fourm will be filled with the screams and cries of the cheap charlies crying the blues.

The bigger concern will be the impact the route changes would have on expensive aircraft like the AB380. There is no way some of the longer routes would support the continued use of an AB380.

 

The alternative air routes are already congested. Flying over some areas brings aircraft far too close to conflict zones. Weather disruptions would have a magnified impact.

 

Note: The deleted word was FF-for Frequent Flyer.

 

Edited February 28, 20197 yr by geriatrickid

17 minutes ago, Bullie said:

What you surely are not, my dear sir, is someone with any knowledge of aviation at all.

Re-routing is not "just" taking another highway in the sky. Congestion is a real issue here, including the risk of mid-air collisions. Then there is the amount of fuel to consider, securing landing slots, and possibly rights....costs involved, etc.  The list goes on, but these things are not dealt with in minutes, on this scale.

Thanks for your comments but what I meant was, avoid THAI and use other airlines flying agreed routes. For example Cathay Pacific to Hong Kong or JAL to Tokyo then onward to destination.

15 minutes ago, Burma Bill said:

Thanks for your comments but what I meant was, avoid THAI and use other airlines flying agreed routes. For example Cathay Pacific to Hong Kong or JAL to Tokyo then onward to destination.

Sound advice as it is, our flight to Amsterdam has, unfortunately been booked already with the KLM in 8 days... Hopefully the situation will have resolved itself by then!

24 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

TG has some of the lowest airfares on the nonstop LHR-BKK route

Only 3 airlines fly it, so not that much competition.

5 hours ago, roamer said:

Sure. Zero to do with the increased refuelling costs via Middle East or Eastern Europe or more expensive airspace over Russia. Safety concerns have nothing whatsoever to do with it, insurance has been withdrawn for that route and airspace closed, couldn't fly it if you wanted to. Any money you like other airlines will be re-routing long before Thai.

I recall when I was staying in Lahore following 9/11 all airlines stopped flying to/from there aside from PIA ( and an evacuation flight organized by the US embassy for an exorbitant price ). I had to fly PIA to 

India to get a a Thai Airways flight to Bangkok. Can't remember if my return flight was similarly routed. Not sure if flying PIA was more or less risky than taking a chance on flying a foreign carrier over Pakistan air space. Certainly sitting for hours in an Indian airport ensured that getting there, Bangkok, was not half the fun.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 20197 yr by Suradit69

THAI Europe flights resume after cancellations

By The Nation

 

 

Thai Airways International (THAI) has resumed flight between Bangkok and Europe, starting on Thursday, after cancellations due to Pakistan's emergency closure of its airspace.

 

Full story: https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1086859-thai-europe-flights-resume-after-cancellations/

 

 

2 hours ago, overherebc said:

No, only asking if the compensation for flight delays applies to flights that are not of EU origin or non EU airlines. 

My own feeling is that Thai Airways flights originating in Thailand and being delayed will not be under 261/2004 as it's an EU ruling. 

The compensation rules apply to all flights leaving from or arriving in the EU. However compensation is probably not payable for something like this as it may be regarded as an armed conflict issue

In a previous post I mentioned route L777 over Tibet. Its actually L888 and I foound this which may be of interest.

 

From BKK, L888 is a shorter route to Europe than going south through the ME. But it has significant challenges. First there is the very high terrain. Safety heights are above 20,000 ft for lengthy periods. In the event of a depressurisation, you need to have sufficient O2. A 15 minute chemical O2 generator is not going to be enough. Escape procedures to cover a depressurisation or engine failure are complex and will most likely require special crew training. If you have got all those operational & technical details sorted, the final challenge will be obtain Chinese approval to fly the route. So unless an airline has already configured their aircraft, trained their crews and obtained Chinese approval to fly L888, it’s not going to happen (quickly).

2 minutes ago, laocowboy2 said:

The compensation rules apply to all flights leaving from or arriving in the EU. However compensation is probably not payable for something like this as it may be regarded as an armed conflict issue

Yep. I'm thinking the 'delay' would have to be down to the airline having a problem caued by it's own systems or aircraft.

I guess Thai airways will come out with their side of the logic at some point in time !

3 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

I guess Thai airways will come out with their side of the logic at some point in time !

Well, it seems kind of logical not to fly passenger aircraft through a countries closed air space when two countries are throwing jet fighters at each other on the border of that airspace.

Don't think waving a flag out the aircraft window would ensure safe passage.

Just sayin'

I know of one family with 2 kids that was suppose to fly to Europe last night. They have been booked on a noon flight this Sunday, extending their stay in Thailand by 3 days, but ZERO compensation from Thai Airways.

No hotel, no taxi/limo from the airport, not even a 100 baht food voucher. Nil, nothing!

Bit low of Thai.

33 minutes ago, laocowboy2 said:

The compensation rules apply to all flights leaving from or arriving in the EU. However compensation is probably not payable for something like this as it may be regarded as an armed conflict issue

Only leaving the EU, not arriving.

In any event compensation is not due here, this was completely outside the airlines control.

Thai Airways claimed "Force Majure" on its webpage so compensation might eventually be a problem for delays

Edited February 28, 20197 yr by Tallviking

Why fly Thai? 

 

Can't think of any reason really..