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Coal-fired And Nuclear Power Necessary, Says Energy Ministry

george

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george Legendary Member

george

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Coal-fired and nuclear power necessary, says Energy Ministry

BANGKOK: -- It will be difficult for Thailand to avoid counting on coal-fired and nuclear power plants in the future since natural gas is rarely found and in limited supply, according to the kingdom's Ministry of Energy.

Deputy Permanent Secretary for Energy Nokun Sitthiphong said the ministry had recently organised a forum where around 80 academics and representatives of non-governmental organisations participated to discuss and exchange views on consumption of alternative energy such as natural gas, coal, and nuclear in the future, and a power development plan proposed by NGOs.

The meeting found Thailand might experience a power shortage if it adhered to the power development plan (PDP).

Under the plan prepared by NGOs last year, the country's power demand per month is expected to peak at 18,000 megawatts. But according to reliable information from other sources, the actual maximum demand considerably higher at 21,064 megawatts.

Even in February, which is Thailand's 'winter' period (meaning that there is less demand for air-conditioning than in hotter months), the demand increased to 20,592 megawatts and is expected to peak at 22,567 megawatts.

Because of this, it is difficult for Thailand to avoid relying on coal and nuclear energy for power generation because it is too risky to count solely on natural gas.

According to data provided by Thailand's oil and gas conglomerate PTT Plc, natural gas supplies from the Gulf of Thailand and joint petroleum development areas with neighbouring countries could be supplied at 4 billion cubic feet per day while consumption is 2.1 billion. At the same time, the country purchases 1 billion cubic feet of natural gas from Myanmar.

So, should Thailand need to consume more natural gas, it must import liquefied natural gas (LPG).

However, since imports are probably limited to 10 million tonnees per year, it is worrying that the supply would not be enough for a new power plant.

"Natural gas is very unlikely to be sufficient for a new power plant. So, nuclear power is one of the alternative choices. Equally important, consumption of nuclear power can help relieve the problem of a warmer global climate," he said.

--TNA 2007-03-03

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yuyi Advanced Member

yuyi

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... so many experts, yet none of them seem to have noticed that Thailand has no shortage of sunshine. Which is free! And also absorbtion chillers seem to be totally unknown to them. For everyone else: absorbtion chillers are an old technology which produces cold from heat. Meaning the hotter the sun shines, the more cold you get . Perfect for air conditioning.

This is no future technology, these systems are in use all over the world. Available for buildings starting at 150 m2. Ideal for hotels, resorts, offices, villages, factories, and so on. Thailand could easily save 50% of the electricity used for air conditioning. Replace it with sunshine. (Did I already mention that sunshine is free?)

Ok I admit it: there are not many companies in Thailand which can plan and implement such a system. But here is one: http://www.SiamGPI.com ...what do you say? Yes, of course, it is farang managed :o

I really wonder which NGOs did participate in that forum. Could it be that there have been just the non-governmental lobbying organizations of the nuclear power, coal and oil industry? :D

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Martin Gold Member

Martin

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This is just incoherent noise from another bunch of humans who are 'high' on the high-pressure atmosphere of the bubble in which they are living.

Thailand's maximum demand is at its peak and set to fall continually from the onset of the Second Great Depression.

We shouldn't be burning the natural gas that we do already. Our children's generation (not to mention my grandchildren and greatgrandchildren) need that gas to be left for them to use as petrochemical feedstock.

If the question had been put to that forum as to how the capital would be raised for the new nuclears, they would have talked about a bond issue---that is, they would have proposed to stick a future generation with the bill.

We don't need to build more generating stations.

What we do need to do is to mend our ways.

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wintermute Gold Member

wintermute

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A nuclear disaster in Thailand would be catastrophic. Can you imagine a Chernobyl or Three mile island happening here? hel_l, they wouldn't even have the resources to begin cleaning it up. That means radioactive dust would be blowing everywhere throwing around cancerous radiation everywhere. I'd feel sorry for Thailand's neighbors. I think it's an all around bad idea and the shortcuts they would take in safety or construction would be truly frightening to think about. Personally, any ideas to build a nuclear reactor here should be scrutinized like Iran.

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yuyi Advanced Member

yuyi

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Thailand + nuclear reactors = BOOM

Be afraid, be very afraid

Sad but probably true.

However we do need to find alternatives to OIL........................

Good news: We found them already: Solar Energy. Free. Every day.

I'm not talking about Photo Voltaic, which is producing electricity using solar calls. This is possible, but still expensive.

However 50% (or more) of all electricity used in Thailand for air conditioning can get replaced by absorption chillers fed with heat from free sunshine, collected in solar collectors (the same you use for solar water heating). This technology is having a good ROI, especially in Thailand. There is no reason not to use it. Except of course if you're in love with the nuclear power plant next door.

... so many experts, yet none of them seem to have noticed that Thailand has no shortage of sunshine. Which is free! And also absorbtion chillers seem to be totally unknown to them. For everyone else: absorbtion chillers are an old technology which produces cold from heat. Meaning the hotter the sun shines, the more cold you get . Perfect for air conditioning.

This is no future technology, these systems are in use all over the world. Available for buildings starting at 150 m2. Ideal for hotels, resorts, offices, villages, factories, and so on. Thailand could easily save 50% of the electricity used for air conditioning. Replace it with sunshine. (Did I already mention that sunshine is free?)

Ok I admit it: there are not many companies in Thailand which can plan and implement such a system. But here is one: http://www.SiamGPI.com ...what do you say? Yes, of course, it is farang managed :o

I really wonder which NGOs did participate in that forum. Could it be that there have been just the non-governmental lobbying organizations of the nuclear power, coal and oil industry? :D

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kmart Platinum Member

kmart

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Has the wind stopped blowing near the sea already?

Why no mention of windpower generation?

Have you seen how many of those windmill thingies are needed just to power a bleedin' hair dryer? :o

What an eyesore. I'd rather wake up to a vista of some nuclear facility, tbh. :D

post-32068-1172979272_thumb.jpg

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yuyi Advanced Member

yuyi

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Has the wind stopped blowing near the sea already?

Why no mention of windpower generation?

Have you seen how many of those windmill thingies are needed just to power a bleedin' hair dryer? :o

What an eyesore. I'd rather wake up to a vista of some nuclear facility, tbh. :D

Why waiting? I hear land is cheap around Chernobyl :D

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h90 Star Member

h90

Posted
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... so many experts, yet none of them seem to have noticed that Thailand has no shortage of sunshine. Which is free! And also absorbtion chillers seem to be totally unknown to them. For everyone else: absorbtion chillers are an old technology which produces cold from heat. Meaning the hotter the sun shines, the more cold you get . Perfect for air conditioning.

This is no future technology, these systems are in use all over the world. Available for buildings starting at 150 m2. Ideal for hotels, resorts, offices, villages, factories, and so on. Thailand could easily save 50% of the electricity used for air conditioning. Replace it with sunshine. (Did I already mention that sunshine is free?)

Ok I admit it: there are not many companies in Thailand which can plan and implement such a system. But here is one: http://www.SiamGPI.com ...what do you say? Yes, of course, it is farang managed :o

I really wonder which NGOs did participate in that forum. Could it be that there have been just the non-governmental lobbying organizations of the nuclear power, coal and oil industry? :D

I got told that is not working well as you need very high temperatures. But beside that, how about making hot water from the sun, instead electric--simple

Or don't light the streets in the evening so much that you belive it is 2 pm.

Or insulate the houses a little bit

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h90 Star Member

h90

Posted
Posted
Has the wind stopped blowing near the sea already?

Why no mention of windpower generation?

Have you seen how many of those windmill thingies are needed just to power a bleedin' hair dryer? :o

What an eyesore. I'd rather wake up to a vista of some nuclear facility, tbh. :D

Why waiting? I hear land is cheap around Chernobyl :D

just one block (block 4???) is burned out, the other Chernobyl blocks are OK and can be bought second hand and installed in Thailand.

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yuyi Advanced Member

yuyi

Posted
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... so many experts, yet none of them seem to have noticed that Thailand has no shortage of sunshine. Which is free! And also absorbtion chillers seem to be totally unknown to them. For everyone else: absorbtion chillers are an old technology which produces cold from heat. Meaning the hotter the sun shines, the more cold you get . Perfect for air conditioning.

This is no future technology, these systems are in use all over the world. Available for buildings starting at 150 m2. Ideal for hotels, resorts, offices, villages, factories, and so on. Thailand could easily save 50% of the electricity used for air conditioning. Replace it with sunshine. (Did I already mention that sunshine is free?)

Ok I admit it: there are not many companies in Thailand which can plan and implement such a system. But here is one: http://www.SiamGPI.com ...what do you say? Yes, of course, it is farang managed :o

I really wonder which NGOs did participate in that forum. Could it be that there have been just the non-governmental lobbying organizations of the nuclear power, coal and oil industry? :D

I got told that is not working well as you need very high temperatures. But beside that, how about making hot water from the sun, instead electric--simple

The hotter the better, yes, and modern absorbtion chillers work very well with the temperatures reached using solar collectors. (There is no electricity produced, it is using the hot water produced by the solar collectors.)

About making hot water from the sun, for showers etc, yes, works great, fast ROI, and affordable. It is just that air conditioning in Thailand is responsible for a much bigger part of the electricity consumption, that is why solar cooling has more impact on the amount of electricity needed.

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steveromagnino Platinum Member

steveromagnino

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Ok I admit it: there are not many companies in Thailand which can plan and implement such a system. But here is one: http://www.SiamGPI.com ...what do you say? Yes, of course, it is farang managed :o

I really wonder which NGOs did participate in that forum. Could it be that there have been just the non-governmental lobbying organizations of the nuclear power, coal and oil industry? :D

Obviously nuclear is being pushed behind the scenes by GE who are promoting their smaller size nuclear power plants agressively, and my guess is that the US Ambassador (if he is any good which is highly debateable) should be supporting them; typically this size of project in a developing country requires significant govt support to get going (e.g. Maui take or pay agreements in NZ for the developers of the gas field to feed nat. gas for energy purposes where the govt gauaranteed to gauarantee demand levels to justify development, which was then onsold very cheaply to govt owned power plants). And yes, the lobbying organisations are probably thick in it, trying to sell something that the Kingdom really does not need - heavens, a nuclear power plant. :-)

It would therefore be likely that any nuclear power plant would be a technology from abroad, with fixed safety standards and operating procedures. Knowing that the spent fuel would be around for a mere 10,000 years, I have total faith following mankind's responsbility for UNion Carbide disaster in India, agent orange, Chernobyl and various other acts of responsibility/non negligence that Thailand, just like everywhere else, will manage to screw up things for nuclear.

For those who suggest solar or wind. The reason why neither currently works is because both are not economically viable without government subsidies. Coal, hydro and to a lessor degree geothermal and natural gas tend to be at least 1/2 the price of either solar or wind. And incidentally, Thailand has some of the worst wind for wind generation; it isn't strong enough most of the year, and so would require a specific rotor/blade design for low wind speed, with the ability to shut off in monsoon weather. Cobra, incidentally, a Thai OEM company that is the world's largest windsurfer/surfboard manufacturer, are working on such a design within their design consortium.

It would make more sense rurally to use wind, and many villages do for direct functions, rather than going wind to electruicity to machine, they go wind to machine directly, avoiding line losses and lower efficiency numbers of the electricity generation.

FOr solar, another major issue is electricity's inability to store without batteries or similar (which is impossible at a grid level, at least AFAIK). Since the load peaks often occur here at night when everyone goes home and turns on their aircon, it means solar is producing energy at the low load period, when the supply curve (and cost) is high supply and hence low price.

By the way, I have not much idea about that company; try checking out Thai company solartron who are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger than the company you name at a guess.

So should Thailand be subsidising alternative energy? Absolutely. There are some weird support systems now, but none for the energy market itself, as the market isn't deregulated; AFAIK the IPPs have to sell all power to EGAT. Some foreign firms not from USA or Australia may use the carbon market trading mechanisms to improve energy production for themselves; people like Holsom but there is still much to do.

No idea about the depression that is being predicted, I ain't no economist.

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h90 Star Member

h90

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... so many experts, yet none of them seem to have noticed that Thailand has no shortage of sunshine. Which is free! And also absorbtion chillers seem to be totally unknown to them. For everyone else: absorbtion chillers are an old technology which produces cold from heat. Meaning the hotter the sun shines, the more cold you get . Perfect for air conditioning.

This is no future technology, these systems are in use all over the world. Available for buildings starting at 150 m2. Ideal for hotels, resorts, offices, villages, factories, and so on. Thailand could easily save 50% of the electricity used for air conditioning. Replace it with sunshine. (Did I already mention that sunshine is free?)

Ok I admit it: there are not many companies in Thailand which can plan and implement such a system. But here is one: http://www.SiamGPI.com ...what do you say? Yes, of course, it is farang managed :o

I really wonder which NGOs did participate in that forum. Could it be that there have been just the non-governmental lobbying organizations of the nuclear power, coal and oil industry? :D

I got told that is not working well as you need very high temperatures. But beside that, how about making hot water from the sun, instead electric--simple

The hotter the better, yes, and modern absorbtion chillers work very well with the temperatures reached using solar collectors. (There is no electricity produced, it is using the hot water produced by the solar collectors.)

About making hot water from the sun, for showers etc, yes, works great, fast ROI, and affordable. It is just that air conditioning in Thailand is responsible for a much bigger part of the electricity consumption, that is why solar cooling has more impact on the amount of electricity needed.

Do you know how much is necessary?

My guess is far over 100 degree

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yuyi Advanced Member

yuyi

Posted
Posted
Ok I admit it: there are not many companies in Thailand which can plan and implement such a system. But here is one: http://www.SiamGPI.com ...what do you say? Yes, of course, it is farang managed :o

I really wonder which NGOs did participate in that forum. Could it be that there have been just the non-governmental lobbying organizations of the nuclear power, coal and oil industry? :D

...

For those who suggest solar or wind. The reason why neither currently works is because both are not economically viable without government subsidies. Coal, hydro and to a lessor degree geothermal and natural gas tend to be at least 1/2 the price of either solar or wind. And incidentally, Thailand has some of the worst wind for wind generation; it isn't strong enough most of the year, and so would require a specific rotor/blade design for low wind speed, with the ability to shut off in monsoon weather. Cobra, incidentally, a Thai OEM company that is the world's largest windsurfer/surfboard manufacturer, are working on such a design within their design consortium.

It would make more sense rurally to use wind, and many villages do for direct functions, rather than going wind to electruicity to machine, they go wind to machine directly, avoiding line losses and lower efficiency numbers of the electricity generation.

FOr solar, another major issue is electricity's inability to store without batteries or similar (which is impossible at a grid level, at least AFAIK). Since the load peaks often occur here at night when everyone goes home and turns on their aircon, it means solar is producing energy at the low load period, when the supply curve (and cost) is high supply and hence low price.

...

Agreed for Photovoltaics (Solar electricity from solar cells) . This is expensive, but still a good alternative for remote areas or islands without connection to the power grid. Building such a connection is quite expensive.

However the production of hot water directly using solar collectors is economically viable without any subsidies.

You can use the hot water for your shower, or, using modern absorption chillers, for solar cooling. Used for cooling it does not involve producing electricity, but nevertheless it saves electricity by replacing the electricity driven air conditioning systems.

Of course, as mentioned by others, insulating your building has a big effect too. As has the choice of glass for your building:

To reduce cooling loads, specify new types of tinted glass and new coatings that reduce the effect of the sun’s heat without sacrificing views.

Spectrally selective glazings and coatings absorb and reflect the infrared portion of sunlight while transmitting visible daylight, thus reducing solar heat gain coefficients and resultant cooling loads.

Solar control coatings can also have low-emittance characteristics.

copied from: technologicalimprovements

Insulating your buildings - walls and windows - is a one time investment which saves electricity for air conditioning for many years. I wonder if just doing that for all buildings, especially all new buildings, wouldn't make additional power plants unnecessary...

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steveromagnino Platinum Member

steveromagnino

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You can use the hot water for your shower, or, using modern absorption chillers, for solar cooling. Used for cooling it does not involve producing electricity, but nevertheless it saves electricity by replacing the electricity driven air conditioning systems.

Totally agree, although bear in mind majority of Thailand doesn't require hot water much at all :-)

You know your stuff my man :-)

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yuyi Advanced Member

yuyi

Posted
Posted
... so many experts, yet none of them seem to have noticed that Thailand has no shortage of sunshine. Which is free! And also absorbtion chillers seem to be totally unknown to them. For everyone else: absorbtion chillers are an old technology which produces cold from heat. Meaning the hotter the sun shines, the more cold you get . Perfect for air conditioning.

This is no future technology, these systems are in use all over the world. Available for buildings starting at 150 m2. Ideal for hotels, resorts, offices, villages, factories, and so on. Thailand could easily save 50% of the electricity used for air conditioning. Replace it with sunshine. (Did I already mention that sunshine is free?)

Ok I admit it: there are not many companies in Thailand which can plan and implement such a system. But here is one: http://www.SiamGPI.com ...what do you say? Yes, of course, it is farang managed :o

I really wonder which NGOs did participate in that forum. Could it be that there have been just the non-governmental lobbying organizations of the nuclear power, coal and oil industry? :D

I got told that is not working well as you need very high temperatures. But beside that, how about making hot water from the sun, instead electric--simple

The hotter the better, yes, and modern absorbtion chillers work very well with the temperatures reached using solar collectors. (There is no electricity produced, it is using the hot water produced by the solar collectors.)

About making hot water from the sun, for showers etc, yes, works great, fast ROI, and affordable. It is just that air conditioning in Thailand is responsible for a much bigger part of the electricity consumption, that is why solar cooling has more impact on the amount of electricity needed.

Do you know how much is necessary?

My guess is far over 100 degree

There are 2 technologies available.

  • One works with about 180 degrees centigrade (356°Fahrenheit), it uses parabolic solar collectors to reach these temperatures. There are many installations worldwide, and this is probably why you had the information about the high temperatures.
  • The other uses regular flat solar collectors with about 80 degrees centigrade (176°Fahrenheit) . This technology is coming from Europe, and as far as I understood it is quite new, but already having many installations there.

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