Diet extremists

[robblok]

People are always cheering for Robert Lustig while he does some good work he is often wrong too. Yes he got a PHD but not in nutrition. 

 

Here a nice article by a highly respected source in the fitness industry. He does not fully burn down Lustig as he has some good points too but he shows a lot of untruths in his work. But I guess its better to be an extremist as it brings in crowds of people instead of being moderate and basing stuff on actual scientific data. 

 

http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/

[eezergood]

Lustig has been proven wrong more than he has been proven right

[cooked]

Lustig isn't the only one that condemns fructose. This article sort of skirts around some of the facts concerning carb intake which is why I would say that it is incomplete. 

Diet extremists:

It is becoming increasingly clear that eating huge amounts of carbs every day isn't extreme at all, it is downright abnormal and unhealthy. 60% of calory intake coming from carbs as is still recommended (this will change  in the next years, as opposed to the 5% recommended by Keto followers, 10 - 15% as recommended by low carbers. 

Fructose is a carb. The fact that little work has been done on this (or maybe it has, corn syrup producers tend to hush this kind of thing up) 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Is_fructose_bad_for_you

Industry, farmers and consumers are kicking and screaming about this new "extremist diet" which is actually based on science that has been knocking around for many years.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, cooked said:

Lustig isn't the only one that condemns fructose. This article sort of skirts around some of the facts concerning carb intake which is why I would say that it is incomplete. 

Diet extremists:

It is becoming increasingly clear that eating huge amounts of carbs every day isn't extreme at all, it is downright abnormal and unhealthy. 60% of calory intake coming from carbs as is still recommended (this will change  in the next years, as opposed to the 5% recommended by Keto followers, 10 - 15% as recommended by low carbers. 

Fructose is a carb. The fact that little work has been done on this (or maybe it has, corn syrup producers tend to hush this kind of thing up) 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Is_fructose_bad_for_you

Industry, farmers and consumers are kicking and screaming about this new "extremist diet" which is actually based on science that has been knocking around for many years.

Of course eating EXTREME amounts of carbs especially processed carbs is bad and unhealthy. 

 

But going as low as low carb or keto is also not needed that is the other side of an extreme vision. Just lowering your carbs and going for unprocessed food is good enough.

 

That is unless you have a metabolic problem.

[robblok]

On 4/22/2019 at 11:45 AM, eezergood said:

Lustig has been proven wrong more than he has been proven right

Yes he has and in debates he is shameless. 

 

He kept repeating that Japan had no added sugar (to support his point) even when proven wrong and they used more as 16kg of sugar per year. 

 

Lustig and other extremists have been proven wrong quite often but they make a loud sound drowning out the more moderate voices. 

[brokenbone]

12 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

 

Lustig and other extremists have been proven wrong quite often but they make a loud sound drowning out the more moderate voices. 

he is fit to lobby global warming, then

[eezergood]

2 hours ago, cooked said:

Lustig isn't the only one that condemns fructose. This article sort of skirts around some of the facts concerning carb intake which is why I would say that it is incomplete. 

Diet extremists:

It is becoming increasingly clear that eating huge amounts of carbs every day isn't extreme at all, it is downright abnormal and unhealthy. 60% of calory intake coming from carbs as is still recommended (this will change  in the next years, as opposed to the 5% recommended by Keto followers, 10 - 15% as recommended by low carbers. 

Fructose is a carb. The fact that little work has been done on this (or maybe it has, corn syrup producers tend to hush this kind of thing up) 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Is_fructose_bad_for_you

Industry, farmers and consumers are kicking and screaming about this new "extremist diet" which is actually based on science that has been knocking around for many years.

Fructose (sugar) is indeed a carb, HOWEVER the major issue these guys skirt around is the fact that NORAMLLY fructose also comes in a neat little biological totally natural package with fibre....... 

[cooked]

25 minutes ago, eezergood said:

Fructose (sugar) is indeed a carb, HOWEVER the major issue these guys skirt around is the fact that NORAMLLY fructose also comes in a neat little biological totally natural package with fibre....... 

Normally, right.

It's almost impossible to avoid corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup. and they contain zero fibre. 

An apple for example contains 14 gm of carbs and only 2 gm of fibre. Going Keto requires going under 20 gm of carbs a day, I myself am a low carber, 30 gm a day, which I can do very easily, enjoy and feel the benefits of. 

I dare say you will find out that many berries are acceptable as far as carbs (talking about carbs in the form of fructose here). 

 

I repeat that this movement towards low carb isn't extreme or just a fad, there is solid scientific evidence, that the US government advice to eat vegetable oils, not eat fat etc was not only wrong but damn near criminal. Parallels can be drawn with the denials that smoking might be harmful. 

I will agree that probably not everyone needs to go low carb, in my own case I stopped the blood pressure meds and never started the statins I was prescribed. At 71 I run 10 - 15 Km a week. Works for me. 

[robblok]

8 minutes ago, cooked said:

Normally, right.

It's almost impossible to avoid corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup. and they contain zero fibre. 

An apple for example contains 14 gm of carbs and only 2 gm of fibre. Going Keto requires going under 20 gm of carbs a day, I myself am a low carber, 30 gm a day, which I can do very easily, enjoy and feel the benefits of. 

I dare say you will find out that many berries are acceptable as far as carbs (talking about carbs in the form of fructose here). 

 

I repeat that this movement towards low carb isn't extreme or just a fad, there is solid scientific evidence, that the US government advice to eat vegetable oils, not eat fat etc was not only wrong but damn near criminal. Parallels can be drawn with the denials that smoking might be harmful. 

I will agree that probably not everyone needs to go low carb, in my own case I stopped the blood pressure meds and never started the statins I was prescribed. At 71 I run 10 - 15 Km a week. Works for me. 

Whatever works for you works and that is a good thing. Personally i just don't function good on such low amounts of carbs. Just does not fit at all. Recently increased carbs and feeling a lot better. But these are unprocessed carbs. Plus probably not over 100-150 grams a day so far from high carb. 

 

It really depends on what kind of carbs and what kind of physical activity one does. Plus of course personal preference. 

[cooked]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

Whatever works for you works and that is a good thing. Personally i just don't function good on such low amounts of carbs. Just does not fit at all. Recently increased carbs and feeling a lot better. But these are unprocessed carbs. Plus probably not over 100-150 grams a day so far from high carb. 

 

It really depends on what kind of carbs and what kind of physical activity one does. Plus of course personal preference. 

Good for you also, have you checked your biometrics before and after?

What I am getting at is that carbs are carbs, even if some forms don't cause an insulin spike a strongly as others, carbs in the form of fibre don't affect insulin at all.

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, cooked said:

Good for you also, have you checked your biometrics before and after?

What I am getting at is that carbs are carbs, even if some forms don't cause an insulin spike a strongly as others, carbs in the form of fibre don't affect insulin at all.

That is the problem with many low carb people.. insulin is not bad at all. In fact its an anabolic hormone that helps put nutrients and other stuff in the muscle. Sure you can't burn fat when there is insulin however if you eat like me 3 times a day without eating in between there are plenty of times the insulin is low for fat to be burned.

 

The body will just has a shorter window to burn fat, but that does not matter the body can just increase the speed of the fat burn. So it does not really matter. 

 

But the insulin around training is a big plus for getting the energy and nutrients int he muscle and promoting muscle growth. The low carb guru's often see insulin as evil and forget that even when people eat carbs there is plenty of time when there is no insulin to burn fat. Using it too black and white. 

 

Of course if someone eats carbs all the time and huge amounts keeping insulin high all the time then sure you can't burn much fat then. But that does not really happen if your on a caloric restriction (can't keep eating then). 

 

For growth of muscle and recovery of muscle insulin plays an real important role.

[cooked]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

That is the problem with many low carb people.. insulin is not bad at all. In fact its an anabolic hormone that helps put nutrients and other stuff in the muscle. Sure you can't burn fat when there is insulin however if you eat like me 3 times a day without eating in between there are plenty of times the insulin is low for fat to be burned.

 

The body will just has a shorter window to burn fat, but that does not matter the body can just increase the speed of the fat burn. So it does not really matter. 

 

But the insulin around training is a big plus for getting the energy and nutrients int he muscle and promoting muscle growth. The low carb guru's often see insulin as evil and forget that even when people eat carbs there is plenty of time when there is no insulin to burn fat. Using it too black and white. 

 

Of course if someone eats carbs all the time and huge amounts keeping insulin high all the time then sure you can't burn much fat then. But that does not really happen if your on a caloric restriction (can't keep eating then). 

 

For growth of muscle and recovery of muscle insulin plays an real important role.

I don't think anyone claims that insulin in itself is bad, it is very necessary. It is the constant yo-yoing from one insulin spike to another that eventually causes insulin resistance, leading to obesity, pre diabetes and type 2 diabetes. The pancreas becomes no longer capable of pumping out the quantity of insulin needed to get rid of the glucose in the blood stream, and you have to start taking insulin daily. The average person has 4 gm of glucose in his blood at any one time. 

The energy and nutrients that you are talking about will be derived from extraneous glucose (carbs) if you think that that's a good idea during training, from fat in your body if you are in or near Ketosis. (I believe that "explosive sports" do benefit from consuming carbs before hand). 

[robblok]

28 minutes ago, cooked said:

I don't think anyone claims that insulin in itself is bad, it is very necessary. It is the constant yo-yoing from one insulin spike to another that eventually causes insulin resistance, leading to obesity, pre diabetes and type 2 diabetes. The pancreas becomes no longer capable of pumping out the quantity of insulin needed to get rid of the glucose in the blood stream, and you have to start taking insulin daily. The average person has 4 gm of glucose in his blood at any one time. 

The energy and nutrients that you are talking about will be derived from extraneous glucose (carbs) if you think that that's a good idea during training, from fat in your body if you are in or near Ketosis. (I believe that "explosive sports" do benefit from consuming carbs before hand). 

Its normal for insulin to yo yo (within limits). The normal reaction of insulin when blood sugar is high is a big release and as the bloodsugar gets down the insulin goes down too. Usually in a hour or so sometimes 2 depending on what you eat. What is bad is constant high insulin and of course if it keeps Yo Yo ing the whole day (far more then 3 times).

 

It all depends of course on the amount of carbs and what kind. I understand 100% that too much is bad for you.

 

Yes explosive sports benefit from carbs and from the muscle building properties of insulin. For a distance runner carbs have no use (if he is in ketosis). Its just different for people doing explosive exercise.

 

Plus I and much of the research don't see a problem with having 30% or even 40% of your calories coming from unprocessed carbs. Higher amounts of processed carbs do lead to a problem.

 

Some just lower their carb intake and change the source of carbs others decide to eliminate almost all carbs and some don't care and end up with problems. 

 

 

[eezergood]

4 hours ago, robblok said:

That is the problem with many low carb people.. insulin is not bad at all. In fact its an anabolic hormone that helps put nutrients and other stuff in the muscle. Sure you can't burn fat when there is insulin however if you eat like me 3 times a day without eating in between there are plenty of times the insulin is low for fat to be burned.

 

The body will just has a shorter window to burn fat, but that does not matter the body can just increase the speed of the fat burn. So it does not really matter. 

 

But the insulin around training is a big plus for getting the energy and nutrients int he muscle and promoting muscle growth. The low carb guru's often see insulin as evil and forget that even when people eat carbs there is plenty of time when there is no insulin to burn fat. Using it too black and white. 

 

Of course if someone eats carbs all the time and huge amounts keeping insulin high all the time then sure you can't burn much fat then. But that does not really happen if your on a caloric restriction (can't keep eating then). 

 

For growth of muscle and recovery of muscle insulin plays an real important role.

Exactly - these things do tend to get demonised

 

[eezergood]

5 hours ago, cooked said:

Normally, right.

It's almost impossible to avoid corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup. and they contain zero fibre. 

An apple for example contains 14 gm of carbs and only 2 gm of fibre. Going Keto requires going under 20 gm of carbs a day, I myself am a low carber, 30 gm a day, which I can do very easily, enjoy and feel the benefits of. 

I dare say you will find out that many berries are acceptable as far as carbs (talking about carbs in the form of fructose here). 

 

I repeat that this movement towards low carb isn't extreme or just a fad, there is solid scientific evidence, that the US government advice to eat vegetable oils, not eat fat etc was not only wrong but damn near criminal. Parallels can be drawn with the denials that smoking might be harmful. 

I will agree that probably not everyone needs to go low carb, in my own case I stopped the blood pressure meds and never started the statins I was prescribed. At 71 I run 10 - 15 Km a week. Works for me. 

I agree that these syrups & other sources of fructose do nothing to help the cause. However a food first (whole foods) is probably a good starting point for most folks.