My 10th retirement visa renewal

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, lamyai3 said:

Sounds like you're not really understanding the problem. Agents in the past have always been a one stop shop - all they had to provide in return for their fee was your extension for the current year. This was accomplished via a bank transfer lasting no longer than a few hours and a waiving of seasoning requirements by special arrangement with immigration.

 

The new rules are way more dubious, and can't even be road tested until 2020 for someone using an agent now. If you spend 20k baht on an agent and obtain your 2019 extension, this doesn't mean you're good to go like you were in the past. You're now held hostage by the post seasoning requirements - the agent effectively has you over a barrel regarding your 2020 extension, and given the badly thought through rule changes, there's no clear way how they're going to be able to show 800k three months post-seasoning, plus 400k nine month residual balance. I can easily imagine a significant hike in second year fees for anyone using an agent for this year's extension. And even if they ultimately can't comply with the new immigration rules, the agents have got a better 2019 payday than in previous years. 

If you look at offices like Jomtien where they do require you to return 90 days after extension and show 800k still in bank book. An agent extension and you are not required to return after 90 days. (the seasoning doesnt apply)

There is still a chicken or egg aspect to the seasoning. its seasoning that applies to your current extension not a new extension next year. 

Although some offices say they will check at next extension, the only requirement for a new extension is 800k 2 months prior.

There is nothing in the rules that say you dont get a new extension because you blew last years seasoning.

If there was, then anyone applying for their very 1st extension would be refused as they didn't have the 800/400 last year.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Peterw42

[lamyai3]

24 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

There is nothing in the rules that say you dont get a new extension because you blew last years seasoning.

If there was, then anyone applying for their very 1st extension would be refused as they didn't have the 800/400 last year.

On the contrary, these are new rules and only apply from March 2019. By definition, they don't apply to someone's first extension (other than the two month pre-seasoning), but the problem lies with the new and unprecedented post-seasoning rules. An applicant would be rejected for their 2020 extension if they failed to meet the 2019 post seasoning requirements, immigration has made this very clear.

[jacko45k]

12 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

For all we know the whole game could change again.  800k goes to 1 million.  The 400k goes to 600k.  Who knows? 

And the agent charge would follow suit I expect.

I heard that the recent money in the bank requirement changes caused an agents pause for 3 days, then it was business as usual. 

Edited April 13, 2019 by jacko45k

[Peterw42]

21 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

An applicant would be rejected for their 2020 extension if they failed to meet the 2019 post seasoning requirements, immigration has made this very clear.

Immigration hasn't made this clear, either formally or otherwise, No written notice or even a direct quote. Most of this comes from peoples assumption of thats how its going to work.

I asked the question of an IO, "what do I need for next years 2020 extension" His answer "800k 2 months prior" My next question "what about the 800/400" His answer " that was for last years extension".

[Pattaya46]

2 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

The new rules are way more dubious, and can't even be road tested until 2020 for someone using an agent now. //

Yes. Still a lot of unanswered questions today. No doubt that agents can still now get illegal extensions for you, but nobody knows - not even agents - how it will work for your next year extension... It could be a bad surprise for those who decided to take the agents route...

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, Pattaya46 said:

Yes. Still a lot of unanswered questions today. No doubt that agents can still now get illegal extensions for you, but nobody knows - not even agents - how it will work for your next year extension... It could be a bad surprise for those who decided to take the agents route...

Extensions can still be obtained by agents, rule changes caused a short pause, and an opportunity to bump prices. Illegal, well maybe, maybe not, they do the job, for more people than you may believe. This avenue has been around a long time and I don't believe it is going anywhere, particularly in the light of recent events to the boss man. 

[lamyai3]

27 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I asked the question of an IO, "what do I need for next years 2020 extension" His answer "800k 2 months prior" My next question "what about the 800/400" His answer " that was for last years extension".

I can only assume the IO either misunderstood the new rules, or perhaps you didn't express your question clearly. What's the point of even having post-seasoning if it's not somehow checked? I can't be bothered to trawl back through the threads, but I've read a few recent accounts on here of IO's saying that meeting the post-seasoning requirements is a prerequisite for the next extension being given. Some offices have even said that account balances will be checked with 90 day reports... their understanding of how this is meant to be enforced seems to be all over the shop. 

[jacko45k]

7 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

but I've read a few recent accounts on here of IO's saying that meeting the post-seasoning requirements is a prerequisite for the next extension being given.

This has been bandied about by TV posters but I have not seen it written in the rules anywhere for applying for a Retirement Extension. In fact the requirements make no mention of it.

Subsequent requirement checks, post issuance, are problematic. 

We are all subject to IO's interpretations.

 

I have also read opinions that if the post seasoning check is not complied with your current extension is at risk. I asked an agent about this (agent not Officer) and the answer was come and see me!

Edited April 13, 2019 by jacko45k

[nongsung]

Just a quick update. Just received a call from Immigration; they are on their way to ‘visit’ me. Second check... I’ll update you all once they are gone...

[lamyai3]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

This has been bandied about by TV posters but I have not seen it written in the rules anywhere for applying for a Retirement Extension. In fact the requirements make no mention of it.

Subsequent requirement checks, post issuance, are problematic. 

We are all subject to IO's interpretations.

 

I have also read opinions that if the post seasoning check is not complied with your current extension is at risk. I asked an agent about this (agent not Officer) and the answer was come and see me!

Since 1st March the post-seasoning rules are as set in stone as those relating to pre-seasoning. The problem is implementation is too new to have been tried and tested yet, and the rules are too poorly designed to give a clear idea on what enforcement might look like. But given recent reports that IO's have been refusing extensions on such trivial matters as failing to have filed a TM30 24 hour address report, it now looks very shaky if someone's assuming they'll be able to get a 2020 extension if they didn't have all their ducks in a row in 2019. 

[jacko45k]

17 minutes ago, nongsung said:

Just a quick update. Just received a call from Immigration; they are on their way to ‘visit’ me. Second check... I’ll update you all once they are gone...

Yesterday was a holiday and they are coming on a Saturday? 

[nongsung]

If my wife let me I’ll aks what happens if I touch my own money. 

They are not here yet, they told the wife that they are checking on another farang right now. I’ll tell the songkran-kids to look out for a police car and douse them!

[nongsung]

Just now, jacko45k said:

Yesterday was a holiday and they are coming on a Saturday? 

Yes, unbelievable...

[Jingthing]

If you look at offices like Jomtien where they do require you to return 90 days after extension and show 800k still in bank book. An agent extension and you are not required to return after 90 days. (the seasoning doesnt apply)
There is still a chicken or egg aspect to the seasoning. its seasoning that applies to your current extension not a new extension next year. 
Although some offices say they will check at next extension, the only requirement for a new extension is 800k 2 months prior.
There is nothing in the rules that say you dont get a new extension because you blew last years seasoning.
If there was, then anyone applying for their very 1st extension would be refused as they didn't have the 800/400 last year.

That makes no sense.
Nobody knows yet about the specific consequences of going under either post seasoning phase because immigration hasn't specified them and the new rules are way too new for us to have any case study reports.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[marcusarelus]

15 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

Sure, that was the traditional way of thinking, and the way I used to look at it as well. 

 

However, I have a funny feeling that the guys on the 800k method are in for a tough time in the future, done on purpose, by immigration staff, to push them towards agents, because it's so lucrative for immigration officers. 

 

Until recently, I never considered using an agent, and never had to.  Now, after these major visa law changes, which, on paper, appear to be designed to stop agents operating, the agents are still operating as normal. 

 

So, what does that tell you?  Agents are now more or less state sanctioned.  So I can't see the agent game changing anytime soon, because, if there was ever a time it was going to change, it would have been after these new changes came into effect. 

 

For all we know the whole game could change again.  800k goes to 1 million.  The 400k goes to 600k.  Who knows? 

Me.  And you are correct.

[nongsung]

The two IO’s just left and it was all a bit underwhelming.

It was, like last year, a check to see if I actually live at the address I had given them. And that the woman who reported me with the TM30 (the wife) was actually present as well; we needed to get a witness. 

 

She-who-knows-all grabbed the first available guy in our village to testify that the ugly bastard on the renewal application was indeed me and had to tell them how long I’m living here.

And if he could identify the photo on the copied ID-card of my wife. And I sat there while they were filling out another form.

 

I expressed my displeasure regarding the new rules and I got the reply ‘we don’t make the rules’.

And that this visit will be a yearly thing because there are ‘bad farangs’ in this region...

 

They were friendly and polite but to me it was a waste of their and our time.

 

But on the positive side of things: no strip search, no interrogation, no detention and no waterboarding.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by nongsung

[Thailand Outcast]

16 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

The poster I was replying to reckoned that the Thai banks needed propping up. With your financial acumen, I assume you can make the connection now.
With regards to cheap loans, do you really think that the minor deposits of retired expats would have any impact on the banks’ liquidity?
I am not “giving” any Thai bank 400k. I am charging them to take care of it and in return, they are actually paying me for the privilege. My deposits in UBS earn me negative interest.
Pay agents all you want. Just realise that the no seasoning requirement is technically against the spirit of the law and that it could backfire at any time without any warning.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

So, while you are charging a Thai bank for for taking care of your money, it's costing you more for your visa than what you are charging the bank.  The 800k is not even keeping up with inflation. 

[Thailand Outcast]

16 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I think you're making too many assumptions.

A big X factor at this point is that no immigration official has announced anything about the legal consequences about being under the 800K during the post seasoning phase, and then under 400K after that. It could potentially be very severe. Or not. We don't know. If you participate in the corruption, you run the risk of facing those consequences. 

I agree.

 

This is currently the unknown for those using agents, and also an unknown for those that may have to dip into the 800k, post visa renewal, or the 400k at any point of the year.

 

It will be interesting to see how they deal with these cases.

 

[Thailand Outcast]

16 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

No they don't !

Only a very few high ranked Immigration Officers can do so.

In a previous thread, someone even said that there was no officer of a rank high enough in Pattaya Immigration. He said these few officers were nearly all based in Bangkok. 

If that's the case, we are back to a legal visas, that has been illegally obtained.

 

I've never used an agent, but the practice has been going on for years, and I don't know of a single case where someone has been arrested for it.  

 

I agree it has more risk to it than the 800k method, but the 800k could become the 1 million method, or 1.5 million method in the future, and then even those cirrently on the 800k method would have to assess the risk using agents, versus the loss of earnings from a larger deposit in a Thai bank.    

[Thailand Outcast]

9 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Sounds like you're not really understanding the problem. Agents in the past have always been a one stop shop - all they had to provide in return for their fee was your extension for the current year. This was accomplished via a bank transfer lasting no longer than a few hours and a waiving of seasoning requirements by special arrangement with immigration.

 

The new rules are way more dubious, and can't even be road tested until 2020 for someone using an agent now. If you spend 20k baht on an agent and obtain your 2019 extension, this doesn't mean you're good to go like you were in the past. You're now held hostage by the post seasoning requirements - the agent effectively has you over a barrel regarding your 2020 extension, and given the badly thought through rule changes, there's no clear way how they're going to be able to show 800k three months post-seasoning, plus 400k nine month residual balance. I can easily imagine a significant hike in second year fees for anyone using an agent for this year's extension. And even if they ultimately can't comply with the new immigration rules, the agents have got a better 2019 payday than in previous years. 

I understand the issue, and I am not arguing with you about it. 

 

However, 12 months can be a long time when it comes to visa laws in Thailand.  Just look how quick these new laws were implemented.

 

I don't agree the agent would hold me hostage, because I was all set to leave to my Plan B country.  Then, I discover it's business as usual for the agents, which surprised me. 

 

This is why I will be monitoring the use of agents, and particularly how they handle the 90 day reports, with some immigration offices asking to see a bank book balance.  Perhaps this may be another service they will offer, for a fee. 

 

You make it sound like the 800k method is safe, which I agree it is, but only safe from corruption, not safe from change.  What if in 2020 the requirement is raised to 1 million, or 1.5 million.  Surely there is a figure where the majority of foreigners will simply say it's not worth it. 

 

Then, even being completely legal, what if one had an emergency and used some of their 800k in the post renewal period, or went under the 400k, at any time during the year.  A completely legal visa holder many now have some big problems for next year's visa, or possibly have their visa revoked at a 90 day report, while the guy using an agent is fine.

 

It's a messy system, made purposely, to see corruption flourish.

 

I do see the point you are making, but only time will tell how all this will play out. 

[Thailand Outcast]

7 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

On the contrary, these are new rules and only apply from March 2019. By definition, they don't apply to someone's first extension (other than the two month pre-seasoning), but the problem lies with the new and unprecedented post-seasoning rules. An applicant would be rejected for their 2020 extension if they failed to meet the 2019 post seasoning requirements, immigration has made this very clear.

Yes, this is also my interpretation of the new laws. 

[Thailand Outcast]

7 hours ago, jacko45k said:

And the agent charge would follow suit I expect.

I heard that the recent money in the bank requirement changes caused an agents pause for 3 days, then it was business as usual. 

This is why it appears to me that the use of visa agents is state sanctioned, therefore, probably quite safe.

 

I know this would be distasteful for some.  I felt that way about those using agents, and the agents themselves, in the past.  However, we are now living in different "visa times" in Thailand, and one must adapt.   

[tgeezer]

I want safe and secure ‘investments’ at over 70 years of age, Bt 20,000 guaranteed by the government in UK makes £3.47 per month on average, taxable. Depositing that money in Thailand makes about the same. I can get 8% on an ISA but the capital is at some risk, mine is at very low risk and actually made more than 8% a few years ago but I made nothing last year and so not be seen as a source of income because it is a paperwork exercise.  I would say that the Thai deposit is a good option. 

[Thailand Outcast]

4 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Me.  And you are correct.

Are you saying the amount is going to increase from 800k? 

 

I know it was mentioned by high ranking authorities, but I didn't read about and amounts, or deadlines, for this to come into effect.

[jacko45k]

35 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

I can get 8% on an ISA but the capital is at some risk, mine is at very low risk and actually made more than 8% a few years ago

If you are resident in Thailand, are you allowed to have ISAs?

[luckyluke]

1 hour ago, Thailand Outcast said:

time will tell how all this will play out. 

 

Since 2000,I use the L.o.I. system : no money in a Thai bank, no need to transfer a monthly minimum of 65000 Thb.

 

Since years, I hear and read this will soon change. 

 

I suppose it will,

one day. 

 

In the meantime, me and many others still benefit from this system. 

 

In fact it was accessible to every nationality not so long ago. 

 

 

 

[Fred white]

Just did my 90 day report and wasn't asked for my bank book or proof of how much I had in the bank.

[CMNightRider]

15 minutes ago, Fred white said:

Just did my 90 day report and wasn't asked for my bank book or proof of how much I had in the bank.

Wow, lucky you.  Have you ever asked yourself why immigration even demands a 90 day report?  

[yodsak]

20 minutes ago, Fred white said:

Just did my 90 day report and wasn't asked for my bank book or proof of how much I had in the bank.

Thats great, but the 90 day report has nothing to do with a 3 mth bank book check

[SEtonal]

33 minutes ago, Fred white said:

Just did my 90 day report and wasn't asked for my bank book or proof of how much I had in the bank.

Jomtien is asking to see a bank book at 90 day check-in from some applicants who received an extension on or after March 1, 2019.   That does not include you.  Your last extension was issued before March 1, 2019.