My 10th retirement visa renewal

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The visa is not illegal. Immigration officers have the right to waive the seasoning period if they so wish.

The money paid to them to do this is illegal, so, it would be the bribe giver and the bribe taker that are at legal risk.

As for the 800k borrowed for a day, this, too is not illegal. The visa recipient is in the clear.

Obviously, all this breaks the spirit of the law, but, it does not break the letter of the law.

Yes that right, a fact lost on many, a high level Immigration officer can waive any of the requirements. And the extension you end up with is a legal extension.

[CMNightRider]

11 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

If there was another country with similar infrastructure and low cost of living and religious freedom where I could live with only having contact with Immigration for 20 minutes per year I would move there.  I have not changed my banking behavior for 20 years and it is not changed now.  There has been no increase in funds for me and that's what I look at my bank account.  

Thailand does have a low cost of living but freedom is not in their vocabulary.  Parolees in the U.S. generally have more freedom on parole than western retirees have who live in Thailand.  

 

Unless you have a relative in one of the immigration offices, I can't imagine how you spend only 20 minutes a year at immigration. ????

 

 

[ThaiBunny]

4 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Parolees in the U.S. generally have more freedom on parole than western retirees have who live in Thailand.  

Could you give us more details about your experiences as a parolee in the US?

[Peterw42]

3 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

 

Unless you have a relative in one of the immigration offices, I can't imagine how you spend only 20 minutes a year at immigration. ????

 

 

Or an agent who has a relative at immigration, lol.

 

If you do online 90 day and TM30, have a printer/scanner at home, you can get it down to a couple of hours once a year.

[yogi100]

14 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Hold on a sec. You need to qualify that statement regarding Thai attitudes. This may be true with regard to policies being tightened, but, I have seen NO deterioration of attitudes towards myself from ordinary Thai people, or, for that matter immigration officers. Still very friendly, especially if you can communicate.

Here in Phuket, I would say that locals have actually got friendlier than before. I put this down to looking at us in a more favourable light after dealing with the hordes of mainland Chinese, Russians and increasingly people from the sub-continent.

Actually I don't have to hold on nor do I need to qualify anything.

 

I've never been to Phuket. I can only speak for what I see where I go which is mainly around Pattaya and where everybody I know agrees with me about said attitude changing for the worse.

 

So do some of my friends who have married Thai women and have lived out in the sticks. Even some of them just visit their girl's village and can't wait to get back to the even less unfriendly atmosphere of Pattaya.

[Joe Mcseismic]

11 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

Actually I don't have to hold on nor do I need to qualify anything.

 

I've never been to Phuket. I can only speak for what I see where I go which is mainly around Pattaya and where everybody I know agrees with me about said attitude changing for the worse.

 

So do some of my friends who have married Thai women and have lived out in the sticks. Even some of them just visit their girl's village and can't wait to get back to the even less unfriendly atmosphere of Pattaya.

I have always lived by the maxim that I am responsible for my own happiness.

You sound miserable and a touch bitter. Do something about it. Something more effective than moaning about it on a forum.

[CMNightRider]

Just now, ThaiBunny said:

Could you give us more details about your experiences as a parolee in the US?

Well, Miss Bunny, my experience comes from supervising these fools.  Have you ever wondered why retirees have to reapply year after year for a visa extension, or why you are required to report to immigration every 90 days, or perhaps thought what the purpose of TM forms are for?  

 

Maybe the latest financial requirement of depositing 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, to prop up a third world banking system has given you something to think about.  

 

If there are any retirees living in Thailand, who hasn't given thought to these questions, maybe this may be a good time to start thinking about it. 

 

 

[ThaiBunny]

4 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Well, Miss Bunny, my experience comes from supervising these fools.  Have you ever wondered why retirees have to reapply year after year for a visa extension, or why you are required to report to immigration every 90 days, or perhaps thought what the purpose of TM forms are for?  

 

Maybe the latest financial requirement of depositing 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, to prop up a third world banking system has given you something to think about.  

 

If there are any retirees living in Thailand, who hasn't given thought to these questions, maybe this may be a good time to start thinking about it. 

Right, so asserting that retirees in Thailand have fewer freedoms than parolees in the US is based solely on hyperbole

[iamariva1957]

On 4/5/2019 at 9:20 PM, chickenslegs said:

I believe the OP is talking about the new 90-day rule - to show that the 800,000/400,000  THB is still in the bank account. This can not be done online.

 

Yes, the online report of an alien remaining in the Kingdom longer than 90 days is very convenient.

If I have read the new rules correctly and based upon my own friends at my local IM office... the figure that must be shown (800k) is only for the 3-month period after getting your Visa (mst be in for 3 or 2 months prior depending on if you are renewing or first timer). After that you can withdraw 400k and only have to keep the other 400k in the bank and be able to show it as being there every month during your 90-day report (how that will play with the inline reporting... I have no idea).

[iamariva1957]

14 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Right, so asserting that retirees in Thailand have fewer freedoms than parolees in the US is based solely on hyperbole

yes.

[yogi100]

9 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

I have always lived by the maxim that I am responsible for my own happiness.

You sound miserable and a touch bitter. Do something about it. Something more effective than moaning about it on a forum.

How do I sound like anything and what as a holiday maker have I to be a touch bitter about. 

 

I'm simply contributing to the topic under discussion by giving my opinion on the subject and saying what my pals have to say about it. Reading through the topic you'll see that many other contributors feel the same way.

 

The fact that you have always lived by the maxim that you are responsible for your own happiness has nothing to do with how other fellows may deal with this retirement problem nor the topic in question.

 

It's not about you or any maxims you may have nor any conceptions you may have about me which no one is the least bit interested interested in anyway. 

 

Best to stick to the topic under discussion.

[Joe Mcseismic]

5 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

How do I sound like anything and what as a holiday maker have I to be a touch bitter about. 

 

I'm simply contributing to the topic under discussion by giving my opinion on the subject and saying what my pals have to say about it. Reading through the topic you'll see that many other contributors feel the same way.

 

The fact that you have always lived by the maxim that you are responsible for your own happiness has nothing to do with how other fellows may deal with this retirement problem nor the topic in question.

 

It's not about you or any maxims you may have nor any conceptions you may have about me which no one is the least bit interested interested in anyway. 

 

Best to stick to the topic under discussion.

Sorry, missed the bit about you thinking about retiring here. I mistakenly thought you were retired here.

With all the negatives you have pointed out, best look for another place to retire.

One thing that makes a huge difference to the experience here is communication. If you can't speak conversational Thai, a door will be forever closed to you. Maybe that explains the difference in our experiences, but, maybe not. Could just be location.

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, CMNightRider said:

Thailand does have a low cost of living but freedom is not in their vocabulary.  Parolees in the U.S. generally have more freedom on parole than western retirees have who live in Thailand.  

 

Unless you have a relative in one of the immigration offices, I can't imagine how you spend only 20 minutes a year at immigration. ????

I spend 20 minutes per year at Thai Immigration.  Statement about freedom and parolees is not true.  Have a taxi driver do your 90 day report and have your paperwork correct for your retirement extension and the correct change and it takes 20 minutes. 

 

You wrote in an earlier post, "it took around 30 minutes to get the visa and the re-entry stamp."  So you are aware of how long it takes.  

Edited April 12, 2019 by marcusarelus

[ROBINPATTAYA]

43 minutes ago, iamariva1957 said:

If I have read the new rules correctly and based upon my own friends at my local IM office... the figure that must be shown (800k) is only for the 3-month period after getting your Visa (mst be in for 3 or 2 months prior depending on if you are renewing or first timer). After that you can withdraw 400k and only have to keep the other 400k in the bank and be able to show it as being there every month during your 90-day report (how that will play with the inline reporting... I have no idea).

I have only done 1 x 90 report is 10 years, I generally get bored enough to go on a trip after about 2 months.

As a result, I would not be visiting for a 90 report (interrogation).

I wonder what happens if I drop under the 400k for say 2 weeks in the 6th month, eg, still 6 months remaining on my extension.

Come renewal time, it would be interesting to see what the consequences would be....

Edited April 12, 2019 by ROBINPATTAYA
alter

[Sheryl]

I have only done 1 x 90 report is 10 years, I generally get bored enough to go on a trip after about 2 months.
As a result, I would not be visiting for a 90 report (interrogation).
I wonder what happens if I drop under the 400k for say 2 weeks in the 6th month, eg, still 6 months remaining on my extension.
Come renewal time, it would be interesting to see what the consequences would be....

I think it safe to assume you would not get the next extension.

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[CMNightRider]

1 hour ago, ThaiBunny said:

Right, so asserting that retirees in Thailand have fewer freedoms than parolees in the US is based solely on hyperbole

Hyperbole??  I think not.  Can you say "Stockholm syndrome." ????

[CMNightRider]

1 hour ago, iamariva1957 said:

If I have read the new rules correctly and based upon my own friends at my local IM office... the figure that must be shown (800k) is only for the 3-month period after getting your Visa (mst be in for 3 or 2 months prior depending on if you are renewing or first timer). After that you can withdraw 400k and only have to keep the other 400k in the bank and be able to show it as being there every month during your 90-day report (how that will play with the inline reporting... I have no idea).

It is an interesting scheme to prop up the Thai banks at the expense of western retirees.  I wonder how many people who will actually buy into this insane idea.  ????

[Jingthing]

It is an interesting scheme to prop up the Thai banks at the expense of western retirees.  I wonder how many people who will actually buy into this insane idea.  [emoji20]

A lot. Because so many people including me are already heavily invested here.

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[Joe Mcseismic]

1 hour ago, CMNightRider said:

Hyperbole??  I think not.  Can you say "Stockholm syndrome." ????

You sure about that?

 

https://www.prisonfellowship.org/resources/training-resources/reentry-ministry/ministry-basics/probation-and-parole-requirements/

[Gweiloman]

It is an interesting scheme to prop up the Thai banks at the expense of western retirees.  I wonder how many people who will actually buy into this insane idea.  [emoji20]

You really think that Thai banks need Thb800k per retiree to remain solvent? I think you over estimate the financial benefits that expats bring to Thailand


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[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, ROBINPATTAYA said:

I wonder what happens if I drop under the 400k for say 2 weeks in the 6th month, eg, still 6 months remaining on my extension.

Come renewal time, it would be interesting to see what the consequences would be..

Likely, you would need to use an agent to get your extension.  The system is now set up such that each expat's missed xfer, or few baht moved mid-year, trigger a financial-windfall for the IOs.

[Thailand Outcast]

5 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

You really think that Thai banks need Thb800k per retiree to remain solvent? I think you over estimate the financial benefits that expats bring to Thailand


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Who said anything about Thai banks and solvency? 

 

It's just a nice earner for them, by way of a Government guaranteed, forced, cheap loan by expats. 

 

Also, if you can't touch 400k of your 800k, perpetually, you are basically giving a Thai bank your 400k.  This part of the new laws took "seasoning" to a whole new level.

 

What's next?  The 800k can't be touched forever? 

[smedly]

On 4/5/2019 at 8:35 PM, nongsung said:

the endless stream of copies, signatures, and prove of this and that drives me nuts. 

the answer to this massive waste of paper and the completely unnecessary copies of everything - who owns the copy shop right next to the IO Office

[Thailand Outcast]

11 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The visa is not illegal. Immigration officers have the right to waive the seasoning period if they so wish.

The money paid to them to do this is illegal, so, it would be the bribe giver and the bribe taker that are at legal risk.

As for the 800k borrowed for a day, this, too is not illegal. The visa recipient is in the clear.

Obviously, all this breaks the spirit of the law, but, it does not break the letter of the law.

Well, I didn't know they had the discretion to waive the seasoning period.

 

On that basis, what is all the debate about?  It's a no brainer.

 

45,900 baht for the 800k method.

 

versus

 

20,000 baht using an agent.

 

The same visa, both legal.

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

28 minutes ago, Thailand Outcast said:

Well, I didn't know they had the discretion to waive the seasoning period.

 

On that basis, what is all the debate about?  It's a no brainer.

 

45,900 baht for the 800k method.

 

versus

 

20,000 baht using an agent.

 

The same visa, both legal.

 

 

 

 

Nope.

It is a brainer. 

You would be stuck using agents indefinitely then,

If the agent game changes, you would need to start over.

 

[Thailand Outcast]

35 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Nope.

It is a brainer. 

You would be stuck using agents indefinitely then,

If the agent game changes, you would need to start over.

 

Sure, that was the traditional way of thinking, and the way I used to look at it as well. 

 

However, I have a funny feeling that the guys on the 800k method are in for a tough time in the future, done on purpose, by immigration staff, to push them towards agents, because it's so lucrative for immigration officers. 

 

Until recently, I never considered using an agent, and never had to.  Now, after these major visa law changes, which, on paper, appear to be designed to stop agents operating, the agents are still operating as normal. 

 

So, what does that tell you?  Agents are now more or less state sanctioned.  So I can't see the agent game changing anytime soon, because, if there was ever a time it was going to change, it would have been after these new changes came into effect. 

 

For all we know the whole game could change again.  800k goes to 1 million.  The 400k goes to 600k.  Who knows? 

[Gweiloman]

Who said anything about Thai banks and solvency? 
 
It's just a nice earner for them, by way of a Government guaranteed, forced, cheap loan by expats. 
 
Also, if you can't touch 400k of your 800k, perpetually, you are basically giving a Thai bank your 400k.  This part of the new laws took "seasoning" to a whole new level.
 
What's next?  The 800k can't be touched forever? 

The poster I was replying to reckoned that the Thai banks needed propping up. With your financial acumen, I assume you can make the connection now.
With regards to cheap loans, do you really think that the minor deposits of retired expats would have any impact on the banks’ liquidity?
I am not “giving” any Thai bank 400k. I am charging them to take care of it and in return, they are actually paying me for the privilege. My deposits in UBS earn me negative interest.
Pay agents all you want. Just realise that the no seasoning requirement is technically against the spirit of the law and that it could backfire at any time without any warning.


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[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

Sure, that was the traditional way of thinking, and the way I used to look at it as well. 

 

However, I have a funny feeling that the guys on the 800k method are in for a tough time in the future, done on purpose, by immigration staff, to push them towards agents, because it's so lucrative for immigration officers. 

 

Until recently, I never considered using an agent, and never had to.  Now, after these major visa law changes, which, on paper, appear to be designed to stop agents operating, the agents are still operating as normal. 

 

So, what does that tell you?  Agents are now more or less state sanctioned.  So I can't see the agent game changing anytime soon, because, if there was ever a time it was going to change, it would have been after these new changes came into effect. 

 

For all we know the whole game could change again.  800k goes to 1 million.  The 400k goes to 600k.  Who knows? 

I think you're making too many assumptions.

A big X factor at this point is that no immigration official has announced anything about the legal consequences about being under the 800K during the post seasoning phase, and then under 400K after that. It could potentially be very severe. Or not. We don't know. If you participate in the corruption, you run the risk of facing those consequences. 

[Pattaya46]

3 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

15 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The visa is not illegal.

Immigration officers have the right to waive the seasoning period if they so wish. //

Well, I didn't know they had the discretion to waive the seasoning period.

No they don't !

Only a very few high ranked Immigration Officers can do so.

In a previous thread, someone even said that there was no officer of a rank high enough in Pattaya Immigration. He said these few officers were nearly all based in Bangkok. 

[lamyai3]

10 hours ago, Thailand Outcast said:

Well, I didn't know they had the discretion to waive the seasoning period.

 

On that basis, what is all the debate about?  It's a no brainer.

 

45,900 baht for the 800k method.

 

versus

 

20,000 baht using an agent.

 

The same visa, both legal.

Sounds like you're not really understanding the problem. Agents in the past have always been a one stop shop - all they had to provide in return for their fee was your extension for the current year. This was accomplished via a bank transfer lasting no longer than a few hours and a waiving of seasoning requirements by special arrangement with immigration.

 

The new rules are way more dubious, and can't even be road tested until 2020 for someone using an agent now. If you spend 20k baht on an agent and obtain your 2019 extension, this doesn't mean you're good to go like you were in the past. You're now held hostage by the post seasoning requirements - the agent effectively has you over a barrel regarding your 2020 extension, and given the badly thought through rule changes, there's no clear way how they're going to be able to show 800k three months post-seasoning, plus 400k nine month residual balance. I can easily imagine a significant hike in second year fees for anyone using an agent for this year's extension. And even if they ultimately can't comply with the new immigration rules, the agents have got a better 2019 payday than in previous years.