Thai And Chinese Cuisine Keep Using Msg

[brahmburgers]

It's ok for two reasonably intelligent people to disagree. A few things I know for certain:

A. MSG adds a hyper salty taste

B. It's a processed additive, not natually occuring

C. I have experienced adverse/toxic effects from ingesting it.

There is not a glimmer of doubt that #C is true, as it's happened many times, and always as a result of eating MSG-laced food, and nearly always at an Asian restaurant.

Not once has an MSG using restaurant asked me beforehand whether I want MSG in my meal. If anyone has ever been asked that question before a restaurant meal in Asia, please speak up.

I don't believe there have never been any substantive double-blind tests regarding the toxic effects of MSG. If that's true, then science or cullinary students at Thailand's leading universities have an opportunity to do some new science experiments that would enlighten us all. Any students (or scientists) reading this who would like some suggestions from me on how to set up a double blind test, please feel free to contact me. I jest not. I think it's a very important public health issue.

Even more important would be scientific tests to see whether pulverized tiger bone is an affective aphrodisiac - but that's another topic (and would be a harder test to prove - no pun intended).

[brahmburgers]

Toybits says; "The symptioms you mentioned can also be caused by hypertension. Perhaps the beautiful waitresses might have done the job which you ascribe to MSG?"

cute, but no cigar. I just hope the guys with the effervesent wit who slough off MSG toxic reactions - are not doctors who are treating people who get wheeled in to Emergency at the hospital. A guy could be gasping for breath, turning colors while writhing on the tiled floor, while doctor Witicism is calmly elucidating the psychological reasons for the guy's delusion.

.....Have fun doc, and enjoy your immunity to MSG toxicity.

[solo siam]

MSG has a savoury taste to it, rather than salty and if you can point us to a scientific article showing clear signs of symptoms from MSg added to food please do so - I think you are wrong and that its actually all in your mind, the only other people I have met who have claimed similar things with MSG have all shared similar personality traits.

MSG is made by fermenting natural products, fermentation itself is also a naturally occuring thing, why do you insist that its some mysterious chemical rather than a naturally occuring additive like salt or sugar.

[sabaijai]

I don't believe there have never been any substantive double-blind tests regarding the toxic effects of MSG. If that's true, then science or cullinary students at Thailand's leading universities have an opportunity to do some new science experiments that would enlighten us all. Any students (or scientists) reading this who would like some suggestions from me on how to set up a double blind test, please feel free to contact me. I jest not. I think it's a very important public health issue.

There have been many, beginning in the 1930s and running to the present. Here are a few examples.

Monosodium L-glutamate: a double-blind study and review. Food Chem Toxicol. 1995 Jan;33(1):69-78.

71 healthy subjects were treated with placebos and monosodium L-glutamate (MSG) doses of 1.5, 3.0 and 3.15 g/person, which represented a body mass-adjusted dose range of 0.015-0.07 g/kg body weight before a standardized breakfast over 5 days. The study used a rigorous randomized double-blind crossover design that controlled for subjects who had MSG after-tastes. Capsules and specially formulated drinks were used as vehicles for placebo and MSG treatments. Subjects mostly had no responses to placebo (86%) and MSG (85%) treatments. Sensations, previously attributed to MSG, did not occur at a significantly higher rate than did those elicited by placebo treatment. A significant (P < 0.05) negative correlation between MSG dose and after-effects was found. The profound effect of food in negating the effects of large MSG doses was demonstrated. The common practice of extrapolating food-free experimental results to 'in use' situations was called into question. An exhaustive review of previous methodologies identified the strong taste of MSG as the factor invalidating most 'blind' and 'double-blind' claims by previous researchers. The present study led to the conclusion that 'Chinese Restaurant Syndrome' is an anecdote applied to a variety of postprandial illnesses; rigorous and realistic scientific evidence linking the syndrome to MSG could not be found.

---------

MSG FactsDepartment of Physiology, George Washington University, School of Medicine and Health Services

[/b]Purpose: To test the validity of Chinese Restaurant Syndrome among self-reported sufferers.

Scientist(s): R.A. Kenney

Results Published: "The Chinese Restaurant Syndrome: An Anecdote Revisited," Food and Chemical Toxicology, 1985.

Study Design: Six people presenting Chinese Restaurant Syndrome symptoms consumed a liquid solution containing 6 grams of MSG and an MSG-free control solution for comparison in a double-blind test.

Study Results: None responded only to MSG. Two of the six subjects reacted slightly to both the control solution and to the MSG solution, while the remaining four people had no reaction to either solution. The study confirmed that MSG does not cause Chinese Restaurant Syndrome in most people who claimed to suffer from the syndrome.

PeaceHealth.com:

"Most clinical trials, including some double-blind trials, have failed to find any symptoms arising from consumption of MSG, even large amounts, when taken with food."

Additional:

Prawirohardjono W, Dwiprahasto I, Astuti I, et al. The administration to Indonesians of monosodium L-glutamate in Indonesian foods: an assessment of adverse reactions in a randomized double-blind, crossover, placebo-controlled study. J Nutr 2000;130(4S Suppl):1074-6S.

Zanda G, Franciosi P, Tognoni G, et al. A double blind study on the effects of monosodium glutamate in man. Biomedicine 1973;19:202-4.

Rosenblum I, Bradley JD, Coulston F. Single and double blind studies with oral monosodium glutamate in man. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 1971;18:367-73.

Geha R, Beiser A, Ren C, et al. Multicenter multiphase double-blind placebo controlled study to evaluate alleged reactions to monosodium glutamate (MSG). J Allergy Clin Immunol 1998;101:S243 [abstract].

Geha RS, Beiser A, Ren C, et al. Review of alleged reaction to monosodium glutamate and outcome of a multicenter double-blind placebo-controlled study. J Nutr 2000;130(4S Suppl):1058-62S [review].

Kerr, GR et al. Objectivity of food-symptomatology surveys.J. Amer. Dietet. Assoc. 77: 263-68, 1977

Young, E. et al. A population study of food intolerance. Lancet 343:1127-30, 1994.

Do these studies constitute irrefutable proof the MSG is not toxic? No, but their conclusions have more predictive power than any anecdotal evidence to the contrary, in other words the chances are that the vast majority of people are no more sensitive to MSG than to salt, sugar or any other seasoning, and that most people who report sensitivity are experiencing the placebo effect.

One thing I find striking is that there are no known reports of MSG sensitivity until the 1960s.

[sabaijai]

A. MSG adds a hyper salty taste

MSG contains about 12 percent sodium while table salt contains 39 percent. The use of MSG allows cooks to lower the amount of salt used in cooking, and lower overall sodium levels.

B. It's a processed additive, not natually occuring

Glutamate is found naturally in protein-containing foods such as meat, vegetables, poultry and milk. The human body also produces glutamate naturally in large amounts. The muscles, brain and other body organs contain about four pounds of glutamate, and human milk is rich in glutamate, compared to cow's milk, for example.

Foods often used for their flavoring qualities, such as tomatoes and mushrooms, have high levels of naturally occurring glutamate. Your body doesn't distinguish between the glutamate found naturally in foods and that in MSG. Even state-of-the-art technology canÌt separate them. For example, if you analyzed a plate of spaghetti, you could find out the total amount of glutamate in the dish. However, since glutamate is glutamate, there is no way to determine whether the glutamate came from tomatoes, Parmesan cheese or MSG.

from the International Food Information Council (IFIC)

IFIC's Everything You Need to Know About MSG

Are people sensitive to MSG?

MSG is not an allergen, according to the American College of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has found no evidence to suggest any long-term, serious health consequences from consuming MSG. It is possible that some people might be sensitive to MSG, just as to many other foods and food ingredients. There are some reports that mild, temporary reactions to MSG may occur in a small portion of the population, based on tests with a large dose of MSG in the absence of food.

If you have questions about food sensitivities or allergies, contact a board-certified allergist or your personal physician.

Is MSG safe?

Yes. MSG is one of the most extensively researched substances in the food supply. Numerous international scientific evaluations have been undertaken over many years, involving hundreds of studies. The United States and other governments worldwide support the safety of MSG as used in foods.

MSG Safety

U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA): Designates MSG as safe (Generally Recognized as Safe/GRAS), with common ingredients such as salt and baking powder. (1958)

National Academy of Sciences: Confirms the safety of MSG as a food ingredient. (1979)

Joint Expert Committee on Food Additives of the United Nations World Health and Food and Agricultural Organizations: Designates MSG as safe and places it in its safest category for food additives. (1988)

European Community's Scientific Committee for Food: Confirms MSG safety. (1991)

American Medical Association: Concludes that MSG is safe, at normal consumption levels in the diet. (1992)

FDA: Reaffirms MSG safety based upon a report from the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology. (1995)

[sabaijai]

Isolating the fifth element of taste

Discovery of the mechanism behind the mysterious fifth taste, umami, is changing our perception of perception itself.

February 9, 2001

Everyone knows that there are four basic tastes: sweet, sour, salty, and bitter. Wrong. A fifth taste -- umami -- was admitted last year to the gustatory pantheon, and a growing awareness of its role in the flavor and pleasurable sensations of food is changing the way food processors, nutritionists, and chefs think about what they do. The artful use of umami can make mediocre fare taste better, and good food taste great.

In 1907, the Japanese scientist Kikunae Ikeda sat before a bowl of tofu in dashi, a kelp-based broth, and pondered dashi's peculiar flavor and its puzzling ability, like salt, to enhance or harmonize the flavor of other foods. Curiosity drove Mr. Ikeda to the laboratory bench, where he found that the substance responsible for umami, as he named it, was glutamic acid, one of the 20 common amino acids of which proteins are built.

PASS THE UMAMI, PLEASE

An attentive taster," Mr. Ikeda told an American audience at the 8th International Congress of Applied Chemistry in 1912, "will find something common in the complicated taste of asparagus, tomatoes, cheese, and meat, which is quite peculiar and cannot be classed under any of the [other known tastes]." It is often faint, he said, usually overshadowed by other, stronger tastes, and may easily pass unnoticed. "Had we nothing sweeter than carrots or milk, our idea of the quality 'sweet' would be just as indistinct as it is ... with the peculiar quality."

Glutamate that is bound within proteins does not produce an umami taste, only the free form, which is liberated when proteins break down during processes like aging, fermentation, ripening, or cooking. Glutamic acid, however, tastes sour as well as umami, so Mr. Ikeda experimented with other glutamate compounds, finally settling on its sodium salt: monosodium glutamate, or MSG. He approached S. Suzuki & Company, one of Japan's largest pharmaceutical companies at the time, with a proposal to market his compound as a flavor enhancer. In 1909, the company began selling what it called Aji-no-moto, a product so successful that the company subsequently renamed itself Ajinomoto. In 1917, it came to the United States under the brand name Super Seasoning.

Why should the umami taste exist? One theory holds that tastes guide us toward healthy food choices -- bitter and sour help us avoid dangerous substances, like toxic alkaloids, while sweet and salt attract us to sources of needed energy, sodium, and chloride. Because glutamic acid is the most abundant amino acid in animal protein, umami perception could be a meat-protein-seeking mechanism. This theory is hard to prove, but it is suggestive that carnivores and omnivores, like rodents, respond positively to umami, while herbivores are indifferent or even repelled.

The umami story was complicated by the discovery that another class of molecules, 5'-ribonucleotides, also produces umami taste. These compounds, commercially available in the form of disodium 5'-inosinate (IMP) and disodium 5'-guanylate (GMP) are effective at far lower concentrations than glutamate. More significantly, they have such a strong synergistic interaction with glutamate that very small quantities of IMP or GMP added to MSG or to foods that naturally contain free glutamate yield an intense umami taste.

JUST A PINCH

For many years, taste physiologists debated whether umami was a genuine fifth distinct taste or merely a combination of others, perhaps sweet and salt. "But if you block salt taste and take pure MSG," says Gary Beauchamp, director and president of the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia, which has done extensive research on umami, "you get an incredible umami taste. Block sweet and salt and give umami, and you taste umami. It's clearly something different."

The clearest proof that something is a basic taste would be the discovery of a receptor that responds specifically to the stimulus. The receptors for sour and saltiness are well understood. Controversy lingers about bitter, and there appear to be multiple sweetness mechanisms.

Early last year, Nirupa Chaudhari and Stephen Roper at the University of Miami cloned a specific glutamate receptor from rat tongue, which is generally accepted as the definitive proof of umami's basic taste status. It does not, however, respond to the 5'-ribonucleotides, meaning that other receptors and complex interconnections are at play.

Moreover, a receptor is not the whole story. The flavor-enhancing effect of umami is one feature that makes it difficult to define. MSG alone is not pleasant, though it brings out deliciousness in foods. This is not unique to MSG: salt, as well as being salty, is also a flavor enhancer. Cocoa has a bitter edge that adding more sugar will not correct, but a pinch of salt brings up the sweetness and dampens the bitterness, a useful but poorly understood phenomenon that takes place at the neural level.

The discovery of a receptor does, nonetheless, have significant practical implications. "Our work would probably make it easier for companies to screen thousands of compounds. You can't throw thousands of compounds at a human tongue, whereas you can at a molecule," says Dr. Chaudhari. "You can set up automated, nonsubjective screening methods. You could do this for bitter as well -- not only how do you produce bitter, but how do you mask it, which would be useful in medicines as well as in foods."

Mr. Beauchamp of Monell refers to such mechanized taste-testing -- called high-throughput screening, in the biotech business -- as "the Holy Grail of the food flavor industry." Umami, he adds, is a particularly interesting target. "There's no question that industry is interested in finding the parallel to a sugar substitute. They'd like to find something that gives the umami taste without being MSG." MSG has a bad reputation because of its alleged association with Chinese restaurant syndrome (see "Clean Bill of Health").

TASTE-TESTING

In December 2000, a new biotech company called Senomyx, located in La Jolla, California, signed a research collaboration agreement with Kraft Foods to explore new flavorings. Using a variation on the combinatorial chemistry and high-throughput assay techniques now employed to screen new drug candidates, Senomyx will test huge numbers of compounds against taste and smell receptor molecules, conspicuous among them the umami glutamate receptor.

"You can't just sit down with a 96- or 384-well microtiter plate and taste or smell things one after another," says Paul Grayson, the Senomyx CEO. "After about the fifth one, you can't remember the first one. With this sort of automated screening we can optimize other characteristics as well, such as volatility for olfactory compounds, or looking at systemic absorption of flavorings."

Automated assays can also be used in a reciprocal way, as a more efficient way of isolating new receptors. By testing all the expressed proteins in taste tissue and teasing out those that show activity when exposed, for example, to MSG, IMP, or GMP, researchers may discern more components of the taste pathways.

Oddly, until recently, awareness of umami was greater among scientists than in the kitchen. Tim Hanni, a wine master and founder of WineQuest, a company dedicated to the enjoyment of wine, finds that knowledge of the balance and interactions between the five tastes helped him to escape traditional notions of what wines go with which foods, as well as to understand and better control food combinations themselves. One of the most important objectives in making good food is to maximize umami. "How do you explain umami to someone who doesn't know what it is?" he says. "Sometimes it's easier to show what it isn't. Tofu is not umami. So you put it in soy sauce. Rice is very low in umami, but if you cook it in stock where you transfer the soluble compounds from chicken you've got a more delicious and nutritious product. The umami taste of potatoes increases 11-fold when they're cooked, but that's still not enough, so you add sour cream, bacon, cheese."

In addition to making foods taste better, umami can be used to encourage healthy eating. The elderly progressively lose their sense of taste and smell and therefore often stop eating well. Many diseases and drugs alter these senses as well. Susan Schiffman, of the department of psychiatry at Duke University Medical Center, uses various flavors and MSG -- or IMP and GMP when low sodium is desired -- to improve the diets of old people and patients. By selectively flavoring nutritious foods like vegetables, Ms. Schiffman says, you can alter the mix of foods that people choose to eat. If you want to give an older person food with a meatier taste, she adds, "you dump in some IMP or GMP, and then they say, 'Now that you're here, they're serving better soup.'"

Source: Red Herring

[USAThai]

Okay, I have to put my two shakes of an MSG shaker in here.

I don't sympathize with people who claim/are allergic to MSG because I don't share the "allergy", but I do believe that (If it's conceivable, it's possible) there might be people who are allergic to MSG, so here's a few more things that might be of interest.

I Work in a restaurant that prides itself for being able to provide plates that are Gluten-free. However, many of our dishes (95% of which are homemade) still contain gluten in them, which, is naturally occuring. While every effort is made not to combine (cross contaminate) these plates, customers who do face these severe reactions should (and usually do) understand that they THEMSELVES have the allergen. We can not be responsible for the 1-2% of the population who have the allergen no more than we can be responsible to people who are allergic to peanuts. The customer faces the risk of this ingredient coming into contact with their food. Dairy Queen has a notice on their front door with regards to peanuts, and customers understand that risk. And yes, you can still get nuts on your sundae.(Just so you know, Ranch dressing has MSG in it, and I believe Bleu Cheese does too--but don't quote me on the last one)

If you are TRULY that allergic to MSG, Thai (or for that matter--most of the Far East) food is not for you. Even if you don't request MSG to be added, it's in fish sauce, soy sauce, and God only knows what else. MSG will prolly come in to contact with your food. To me personally, the difference in having MSG versus not having MSG is very subtle. But I wouldn't send it back because it did/didn't have the ingredient in it.

So, I guess by your reasoning, the following should happen: Dairy Queen should stop serving ice cream because (there are)people are lactose intolerant, they won't serve peanuts on sundaes, and I'll be ticked that I can't get anything anywhere because someone got sick from something. Am I correct?

[mko]

As a person with severe allergies to certain foods, it really perplexes me that others become so offended by the notion that some ingredients can cause certain people harm. There is in fact such a thing as msg sensitivity. Below is a list of causes. MSG is not only in Asain food. It is in nearly all processed American food as well. It does not need to be listed as an ingredient on the label. Kraft Foods, for example, blatantly admitts that all of their products contain proprietary amounts of MSG.

For those of you who don't suffer from food sensitivities, it's very easy to say things like "well then, don't ever eat food you don't make yourself in your own home." I don't expect others to accomodate me or even understand my situation. I am aware that eating out poses a major risk. However, something like msg is almost impossible to avoid, whether you're in Thailand or not.

I'm not sure about produce in Asia, but American produce (even organic) is sprayed with something called Auxigro. Auxigro contains msg. Washing produce does not get rid of it. So it seems as though nearly all processed foods and many natural, single-ingredient foods contain some level of msg in the US. Does that mean I have the right to tell an MSG-sensitive American "Sorry, ALL food in this country is not for you." ????

You all can go out of your way to try and prove that msg is safe for everyone. There is an equal amount of evidence to the contrary. For a person who knows for a fact that an ingredient causes severe harm to his/her body, does it really matter one way or the other? What's the point of trying to convince this person that they're crazy to think these symptoms are occuring, that the ingredient can't possibly pose a risk to anybody and that it's all in their head (except hmmm.....isn't it easier to believe this, since you are currently consuming large amounts of this ingredient as well?)

What Makes Me MSG Sensitive?

MSG affects nearly everyone in some way because free glutamic acid - the business end of MSG and the amino acid that increases in blood concentration when MSG is eaten, is used throughout the body as a chemical messenger and neurotransmitter. However, some people are more sensitive to excess amounts of free glutamic acid in the body than the average person, who may not even notice symptoms of excess free glutamic acid until after many years of MSG ingestion. We think of these persons as "canaries in the coal mine". They are more at risk of damage from eating MSG than the rest of us - but it is simply a matter of degree. The following are possible reasons for this increased MSG sensitivity:

Autism - affects 1 in 94 children in NJ

Genetic errors "miswire" the nervous system for glutamate receptors and synapses

Genetic error of sulfur metabolism - which affects taurine production

Inflammation present which lowers defense of the blood-brain barrier

Gilbert's Syndrome - affects mainly boys - 2% of population

Inability of liver to detoxify the blood

NMDA glutamate receptors become sensitized

Inflammation

Alcohol use which may cause:

Increased sensitivity of NMDA receptors

Vitamin B6 deficiency

Compromised liver

Compromised liver, (which handles transamination of amino acids) due to:

Taurine deficiency

Caused by error of metabolism for sulfur containing amino acids

Caused by excess estradiol

Caused by vitamin B6 deficiency

Gilbert's syndrome

Vitamin B6 deficiency

Transamination difficulty due to errors of metabolism

Physical damage

Physical Injury (car accident, etc.)

Cirrhosis

Vitamin A toxicity -

Note: Accutane (isotretinoin) drug to treat acne side effects are similar to Vitamin A Toxicity. Unfortunately, teen boys most likely to use Accutane are most likely to be eating too much MSG.

CoQ10 Deficiency - nerve cells in the brain and elsewhere may not have the ability to withstand the overstimulation caused by excess glutamate.

Caused by lack of other vitamins (like Vitamin B6) the body needs to manufacture CoQ10.

Caused by stress

Epilepsy – MSG can induce seizure

Caused by autism related genes (20% of autistic children have epilepsy)

Fibromyalgia - increased nervous system sensitivity

Caused by autism

Hypoglycemia which causes a defiency of fuel to protect the blood/brain barrier

Magnesium Deficiency - Magnesium is used by the nervous system to close calcium channels. MSG is a calcium channel opener.

Parkinson’s Disease –

Leads to Vitamin B6 deficiency as some medications require a patient to limit B6 intake.

Parkinson's patients already have low dopamine levels. MSG lowers dopamine levels further - counteracting the medication.

Pre-existing allergies which cause:

Sensitization of the nervous system due to Nerve Growth Factor (see recent John’s Hopkin’s study on asthma and the nervous system)

Leaky blood vessels – edema associated with inflammation response.

Type I Diabetes -

Caused by antibodies against GAD glutamic acid decarboxylase (85% of those with Type I Diabetes were found to have antibodies against the enzyme that turns excess glutamate into GABA.)

Autism genes - Type I diabetes is associated with autism spectrum

Vitamin B 6 deficiency caused by poor nutrition, alcohol use, or limiting this vitamin due to food/drug interactions.

Vitamin B12 deficiency - Vitamin B12 protects against glutamate neurotoxicity.

Edited March 5, 2007 by mko

[toybits]

You know what? If you are not happy in Thailand because food is tainted with MSG - go back to where you came from.

Don't tell Thais how to prepare their food. Its not the restaurant's fault that they prepared food with MSG. If you did not alert the restaurant staff that you are MSG sensitive, that's YOUR fault.

Start wearing a bright flourescent orange tag saying you are MSG sensitive. That should help. Better yet - don't eat because it might be dangerous to your health.

Toybits says; "The symptioms you mentioned can also be caused by hypertension. Perhaps the beautiful waitresses might have done the job which you ascribe to MSG?"

cute, but no cigar. I just hope the guys with the effervesent wit who slough off MSG toxic reactions - are not doctors who are treating people who get wheeled in to Emergency at the hospital. A guy could be gasping for breath, turning colors while writhing on the tiled floor, while doctor Witicism is calmly elucidating the psychological reasons for the guy's delusion.

.....Have fun doc, and enjoy your immunity to MSG toxicity.

[brahmburgers]

You know what? If you are not happy in Thailand because food is tainted with MSG - go back to where you came from. Don't tell Thais how to prepare their food. Its not the restaurant's fault that they prepared food with MSG.

According to that logic, anyone who is annoyed with aspects of Thailand for any of the following reasons should 'go back to where they came from.'

- selfish, rude and dangerous driving

- incessent noise - especially in malls

- dogs barking at all hours

....the list could go an and on

No, Toybits, I accept that regardless of where I pitch my tent, there will be things that annoy me - yet I've chosen to live in Thailand because I've found it to be comparatively as good or better than anywhere else I can afford to reside. Your knee-jerk admonission is typical of oxygen deprived, beer-addled thinking that some farang-bashing farang and Thai adopt - when

synapses cease functioning in concert.

I have learned something in this thread; that perhaps my adverse reactions that I attributed to MSG were also caused by too much salt added to restaurant dishes (very common with Asian cooking).

This has been an interesting discussion altogether. I know I've suffered from MSG, and I should do all I can to avoid MSG. The smartest (for me) would be for me to avoid Asian restaurants altogether. For those in the majority who don't seem to have a problem with msg - good on you!

However, some of you reading this may actually suffer from ingesting it - but attribute symptoms to other things. For example: how often do you get headaches or feel irritable, but don't know quite know what caused it? If you suffer no doubts about such things, then you must be an omniscient being with few faults that befall mere mortals.

[Prakanong]

'no MSG used here'

That would be a great way to get an empty restaurant here in Thailand.

There are some Hawker Stalls in Singapore put up exactly that sign!

[realthaideal]

"'....no MSG used here'

That would be a great way to get an empty restaurant here in Thailand."

Exactly exactly. Like I said b4 Brahmburger, quit preching to us. We get it. Whether I sympathize or not, I will not change the system. It's up to you to go do it. Call the government down in BKK and figure out which ministry it is that certifies restaurants with the Happy Green Pea "Clean Food Good Taste." Have you ever noticed these in some restaurants' windows, and hanging from food carts ? This was part of '05's campaign to clean up restaurant and food standards throughout the Kingdom. It is viewed as fairly successful. You may have noticed that many wet markets received proper flooring and water systems in that year. In fact it also had aims of significantly reducing the amount of pesticides and inorganic fertilizers used in food production. That is part of the reason that HRM King Bhumibol received a UN Award last year (or the year b4). The infrastructure to get your message out there is still around if you dare to find it.

So are you willing to google some of the keywords I just gave you and start to find the right ministry to speak with and to try to actually make a change in The Kingdom ?? Or do you just want to rant and complain to us, those who can't/ won't / don't care to change things ??

If you just want to rant on and on, fine. But most people will keep firing back insensitively like they have been. This is just a rant unless you take an action in a way that shows you actually want to change things. Otherwise this is something that seems to make you look good and smart and healthy, and the Thais uncaring, uneducated, and living toxically.

Lastly, I will say that I do enjoy those who came in with all the facts about MSG use and development facts. Fascintaing to learn the history.

[sabaijai]

There is in fact such a thing as msg sensitivity.

And the scientific evidence for this 'fact'?

There is an equal amount of evidence to the contrary.

That is clearly not the case, if you're talking about scientific evidence. There may be one or two studies with contrary conclusions but the majority of published tests have found there is no such thing.

If you're talking about self-reporting or anecdotal evidence, there's a lot of self-reported and second-hand anecdotal evidence about all kinds of things, from lead in lipstick to alien kidnappings.

Here's an informal -- but nonetheless valid, empirically speaking -- case study illustrating the lack of predictive power for anecdotal evidence.

Super Science: MSGby Ivan K. Goldberg

Health and Related Issues

Fall Volume: 1994 Issue: 1(1) page: 10, 11, and 12

George, a physician with whom I had done my internship, called recently and asked if could have dinner together. We enjoy discussing, while eating, recent developments in medicine and in photography, a hobby we share. I suggested meeting at a Chinese restaurant. He was enthusiastic, but insisted that it be the one where he frequently dined.

Once there and seated, George confided that this was the only Chinese restaurant he now chose to patronize because several years ago he had many attacks of Chinese Restaurant Syndrome. He blamed them on the use of monosodium glutamate (MSG). George then explained that this restaurant was the only one where he felt secure that no MSG was used.

The illness dubbed 'Chinese Restaurant Syndrome' was first described in 1968 by Robert Ho Man Kwok in a letter to the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine. He reported that MSG, which was used by Chinese chefs as a flavor enhancer, might be responsible for the syndrome of headaches, flushing and palpitations that some people experienced when they were eating in Chinese restaurants.

While George knew of my interest in Chinese cuisine he was unaware of my interest in Chinese Restaurant Syndrome. He had no idea I was reviewing the literature on reactions to MSG for a lecture to be delivered at an upcoming symposium.

I went on to explain that while preparing my talk, I had discovered that among researchers, a good deal of skepticism exists about the authenticity of MSG-induced illness because careful research has shown that very few people experience detrimental effects from MSG.

I went on to tell him that studies have shown that when people who believed themselves sensitive to MSG, drank soup with and without MSG; most who claimed to be sensitive to its effects had no reactions after drinking the soup that contained more MSG than typically found in Chinese food.

My own experience with people who believed they were sensitive to MSG taught me that such people are usually very sure of their ability to identify any foods that contain this flavor enhancer. George was no exception.

As I had expected, he suggested we set up a 'double-blind' experiment to see if he could recognize MSG when he ingested it. A "double-blind" study is one in which neither the experimenter nor the subject knows what ingredients are in each of the foods prepared for consumption.

Two weeks later, on a Monday evening, George came to my home. I explained how we were going to conduct our 'double-blind' experiment, and he agreed. I had already prepared a batch of chicken soup without using MSG. I had also already divided it in three portions, adding a teaspoon of MSG to only one of them.

Karen, another friend, stopped by. She was shown which bowl of soup had the MSG. Out of sight, she labeled the bowls 'Monday,' 'Tuesday,' and 'Wednesday' and then she left. Only she knew which bowl of soup contained the MSG and George was told that one or more of them contained MSG.

That evening, and each of the next two evenings, George came and drank one bowl of soup. As he had always reacted to MSG within thirty minutes, we agreed he would remain at my home for an hour after eating each of the bowls of soup. George had the first portion that very Monday, and we talked for the next hour. He was sure that there was no MSG in that soup.

Tuesday he came again and had his soup. After we chatted for an hour, he said that he felt fine. Again, he was certain the soup was free of MSG. As he left, he mentioned that he was prepared to experience some discomfort the next evening because he was certain that there was no MSG in either of the two soups.

As George was sure that Wednesday's soup would contain MSG and that he would have a reaction to it, after having the soup that Wednesday, I asked him how he felt. He said that he might be developing a bit of a headache, but his reaction was much milder than the ones he had previously experienced when exposed to MSG. He said he was 'fairly sure' that the third bowl of soup contained the MSG, but wondered if I had 'pulled a fast one' by not putting MSG in any of them.

Only then, did I phone Karen to inquire which bowl of soup contained the MSG. She said it was in the soup George had consumed on Tuesday. I told this to George and he laughed saying, "I guess that little headache of mine was iust a placebo." George was very surprised that he had no reaction to the soup he had eaten on Tuesday that really did have MSG. Because of this, I agreed that I could select the restaurant when next we decided to meet for Chinese food.

While there may be a few people who react poorly to MSG, many think they are sensitive to it, when in reality they are not. By continuing to request their food prepared without MSG, there is no way for a person to find out their possible degree of sensitivity. When such people have reactions after eating some foods, they usually assume that someone in the kitchen ignored their instructions not to use MSG. They seldom consider that they may be reacting to another ingredient used in the preparation of that meal.

In 1969, Dr. Olney of Washington University showed that MSG raises blood pressure in rats or monkeys and that infant animals are more susceptible to it than older animals. From that, he concluded this likely to be true in humans.

However, double-blind research studies since then, as did mine with George, have shown that most people can't tell which food has any MSG and which food does not.

Doc Goldberg

[mko]

There is in fact such a thing as msg sensitivity.

And the scientific evidence for this 'fact'?

There is an equal amount of evidence to the contrary.

That is clearly not the case, if you're talking about scientific evidence. There may be one or two studies with contrary conclusions but the majority of published tests have found there is no such thing.

Some information about msg research

Some additional information worth reading

This is especially interesting to me:

In 1969, apparently concerned with the bad reports regarding "monosodium glutamate," the glutamate industry formed a nonprofit organization to defend the safety of MSG, the International Glutamate Technical Committee. Later, in 1977, they increased their efforts with the development of a nonprofit subsidiary, The Glutamate Association, primarily operating as a public relations arm of the glutamate industry. In about 1990, the glutamate industry turned to the International Food Information Council (IFIC), another nonprofit industry-funded organization, to be their spokesman and to promote the safety of MSG along with the other products that they represent.

Based on the reactions within this thread, I'm guessing these organizations and "public relations arms" are quite successful at what they do.

Edited March 7, 2007 by mko

[mko]

MSG is made by fermenting natural products, fermentation itself is also a naturally occuring thing, why do you insist that its some mysterious chemical rather than a naturally occuring additive like salt or sugar.

There is a huge difference between naturally occuring salt and processed white table salt. Same goes for natural sugar vs. processed white sugar. Natural bound glutamic acid and synthetic free glutamic acid are also two very different things.

[solo siam]

What do you mean that there is a difference between natural sugar and processed white sugar? I hope you are not talking about brown sugar, which as far as I am aware is just burned to give it that look/taste.

Also I see no difference between "processed" white table salt, and sea salt for example (which strangely enough is also white), I know that some salt is iodised but I wouldnt call that processed.

[sabaijai]

MSG is made by fermenting natural products, fermentation itself is also a naturally occuring thing, why do you insist that its some mysterious chemical rather than a naturally occuring additive like salt or sugar.

There is a huge difference between naturally occuring salt and processed white table salt. Same goes for natural sugar vs. processed white sugar. Natural bound glutamic acid and synthetic free glutamic acid are also two very different things.

How about some scientific citations? And more importantly is there any solid evidence that the human body can tell the difference, or that the effects on the human body differ?

[sabaijai]

There is in fact such a thing as msg sensitivity.

And the scientific evidence for this 'fact'?

There is an equal amount of evidence to the contrary.

That is clearly not the case, if you're talking about scientific evidence. There may be one or two studies with contrary conclusions but the majority of published tests have found there is no such thing.

Some information about msg research

Some additional information worth reading

This is especially interesting to me:

In 1969, apparently concerned with the bad reports regarding "monosodium glutamate," the glutamate industry formed a nonprofit organization to defend the safety of MSG, the International Glutamate Technical Committee. Later, in 1977, they increased their efforts with the development of a nonprofit subsidiary, The Glutamate Association, primarily operating as a public relations arm of the glutamate industry. In about 1990, the glutamate industry turned to the International Food Information Council (IFIC), another nonprofit industry-funded organization, to be their spokesman and to promote the safety of MSG along with the other products that they represent.

Based on the reactions within this thread, I'm guessing these organizations and "public relations arms" are quite successful at what they do.

The anti-MSG studies cited in the first link refer to MSG administered without food to rats/mics. If you administer large doses of salt, pepper or any number of other seasonings to animals in a laboratory, you may very well find similarly toxic results.

When it comes to human studies, the lit review states:

Human adverse reactions to ingestion of as little as 1.5 g and .5 g of processed free glutamic acid have been reported in the literature.(96,144)

Lots of talk about flaws in the 'MSG is safe' camp in this article but the anti-MSG studies may very well be flawed as well; who would ever eat or serve one and a half grams of MSG?

And the conclusion:

It is common knowledge that minute amounts of certain allergens will trigger adverse reactions, including anaphylaxis, in people who are acutely sensitive to those allergens.(146-148) There is nothing in the literature that says that similarly minute amounts of neurotoxic amino acids such as glutamic acid, aspartic acid, and L-cysteine will not trigger adverse reactions, including anaphylaxis, in people who are acutely sensitive to those neurotoxins. "Monosodium glutamate" contains neurotoxic "processed free glutamic acid."

Quite a leap of reason to state that because minute amounts of allergans may trigger reactions, therefore a minute amount of MSG will also trigger reactions. Conversely there is nothing in the literature that says that similarly minute amounts of neurotoxic amino acids such as glutamic acid, aspartic acid, and L-cysteine will trigger adverse reactions, including anaphylaxis, etc.

Strange that the author of the lit review cited insists on using double quotes for "monosodium glutamate" and "processed free glutamic acid" as if these were eccentric names.

The rhetoric in the second link is a statement of opinion - sans evidence - by the man who runs the organisation in the first link:

Jack Samuels and his wife, Adrienne Samuels, PhD, are founders of Truth in Labeling, a nonprofit organization dedicated to accurate labeling of MSG and the removal of MSG from use in agriculture.

So Mr Samuels makes his living as an anti-MSG lobbyist. He thus has an agenda as rich - or even more so - than that of the many different scientists hired by MSG suppliers. Note there is no mention of scientific studies carried out by goverment researchers, the FDA, IFC, etc.

I don't have a problem with who pays for the research, on either side, as long as the research models are reliable and valid, ie, the studies are double-blind and placebo-controlled and they investigate actual human reactions to MSG ingested with food, in the amounts typical for food.

Another thing to note is that whatever the toxicity of MSG may be, there are many other commonly eaten foods and seasonings with much higher levels of toxicity, such as soya products (from the same folks as the links above: soy toxicity).

[Jet Gorgon]

Hey, Brahms. I am the same as you. I don't know why some folks are sensitive to MSG. I did alot of research on it, too, but no "clinical" proof that it has deleterious affects on people.

I know if I have eaten MSG because I wake up about 3am with a severe headache and nausea.

I think many of the vegetarian or "healthy" restaurants do not use it, so maybe try those? I think even if you tell the waiter "no MSG", some foods are already prepared in batches with MSG, so impossible. One reason I had to stop eating at those delish noodle soup stalls.

I mentioned this in the Western food thread about bouillion cubes; many brands contain MSG but if diluted enough, they do not bother me.

Hope you can find a few bistros that are MSG free!

[kratindaeng]

I usually tell the waiter at the start of ordering: 'mai aow pom churot' (I don't want MSG). I recently went to Cabbages and Condoms restaurant and, because they cater to many farang, I didn't mention it. I should mention that I'm sensitive to MSG. Symptoms: violent dreams,

Cool name for a club on Samui dont you think? violent dreams

KD

[sabaijai]

Hey, Brahms. I am the same as you. I don't know why some folks are sensitive to MSG. I did alot of research on it, too, but no "clinical" proof that it has deleterious affects on people.

I know if I have eaten MSG because I wake up about 3am with a severe headache and nausea.

I think many of the vegetarian or "healthy" restaurants do not use it, so maybe try those? I think even if you tell the waiter "no MSG", some foods are already prepared in batches with MSG, so impossible. One reason I had to stop eating at those delish noodle soup stalls.

I mentioned this in the Western food thread about bouillion cubes; many brands contain MSG but if diluted enough, they do not bother me.

Hope you can find a few bistros that are MSG free!

Jet, just curious, how do you know it's the MSG waking you up at 3am?

[Jet Gorgon]

Hey, Brahms. I am the same as you. I don't know why some folks are sensitive to MSG. I did alot of research on it, too, but no "clinical" proof that it has deleterious affects on people.

I know if I have eaten MSG because I wake up about 3am with a severe headache and nausea.

I think many of the vegetarian or "healthy" restaurants do not use it, so maybe try those? I think even if you tell the waiter "no MSG", some foods are already prepared in batches with MSG, so impossible. One reason I had to stop eating at those delish noodle soup stalls.

I mentioned this in the Western food thread about bouillion cubes; many brands contain MSG but if diluted enough, they do not bother me.

Hope you can find a few bistros that are MSG free!

Jet, just curious, how do you know it's the MSG waking you up at 3am?

Well, don't really check the exact time and it isn't a beau bashing my head. Just know that when I ingest MSG, I later get a massive headache that wakes me from sweet dreams. Never get physical headaches otherwise. Takes me ten minutes of massaging the acupoint in the crook between the thumb and forefinger to dull the pain.

[pampal]

It would be difficult to live in Asia if someone is allergic to MSG. Most cuisine here uses MSG and if allergic, try to eat western foods as to avoid allergic reactions. Not so tough to figure out.

I don't have bad reactions from MSG, I tend to add it to my food when cooking and I like the taste, but if I am allergic to something, I would avoid it.

Edited March 8, 2007 by pampal

[brahmburgers]

getting an adverse reaction to something doesn't necessarily translate to an 'allergic reaction.' Some chemicals are just toxic to the system (whether a little or a lot). my problem with MSG may not be the result of an allergy.

Granted, any prepared food has hundreds, maybe thousands of chemicals - good, benign, and possibly harmful mixed together. A person who feels ill after a meal may have suffered from something or an adverse combination in one or more of the dishes.

Sabaijai's experiment with ONE subject is somewhat scientific, but not remotely comprehensive. I could devise a much more scientific experiment.

Can anyone disagree with the following:

1. everyone gets headaches and feels ill-at-ease sometimes.

2. everyone eats and drinks

3. we're not always sure whether the ill-at-ease feelings are attributed to something we've ingested - or perhaps something else (emotions/stress) or a physiological disorder or a combination.

Though my ill-at-ease may be partially attributed to too much salt and/or sugar in foods found in Thailand. My most sure appraisal is it stems directly from MSG. An ingredient that is NEVER mentioned to customers of Thai/Asian restaurants, neither on the menu or by the workers.

[sabaijai]

Hey, Brahms. I am the same as you. I don't know why some folks are sensitive to MSG. I did alot of research on it, too, but no "clinical" proof that it has deleterious affects on people.

I know if I have eaten MSG because I wake up about 3am with a severe headache and nausea.

I think many of the vegetarian or "healthy" restaurants do not use it, so maybe try those? I think even if you tell the waiter "no MSG", some foods are already prepared in batches with MSG, so impossible. One reason I had to stop eating at those delish noodle soup stalls.

I mentioned this in the Western food thread about bouillion cubes; many brands contain MSG but if diluted enough, they do not bother me.

Hope you can find a few bistros that are MSG free!

Jet, just curious, how do you know it's the MSG waking you up at 3am?

Well, don't really check the exact time and it isn't a beau bashing my head. Just know that when I ingest MSG, I later get a massive headache that wakes me from sweet dreams. Never get physical headaches otherwise. Takes me ten minutes of massaging the acupoint in the crook between the thumb and forefinger to dull the pain.

How do you know when you've eaten MSG? If you answer you know because of the symptoms, well you might very well have mistaken the source. Just sayin ...

[sabaijai]

getting an adverse reaction to something doesn't necessarily translate to an 'allergic reaction.' Some chemicals are just toxic to the system (whether a little or a lot). my problem with MSG may not be the result of an allergy.

Granted, any prepared food has hundreds, maybe thousands of chemicals - good, benign, and possibly harmful mixed together. A person who feels ill after a meal may have suffered from something or an adverse combination in one or more of the dishes.

Sabaijai's experiment with ONE subject is somewhat scientific, but not remotely comprehensive. I could devise a much more scientific experiment.

Can anyone disagree with the following:

1. everyone gets headaches and feels ill-at-ease sometimes.

2. everyone eats and drinks

3. we're not always sure whether the ill-at-ease feelings are attributed to something we've ingested - or perhaps something else (emotions/stress) or a physiological disorder or a combination.

Though my ill-at-ease may be partially attributed to too much salt and/or sugar in foods found in Thailand. My most sure appraisal is it stems directly from MSG. An ingredient that is NEVER mentioned to customers of Thai/Asian restaurants, neither on the menu or by the workers.

I think the problem may be that you're too habituated towards natural foods, and that has weakened your system so that you can no longer take robust cuisines like Thai. Reading your other slam on Thai food where you criticise the amount of herbs used (for me the use of herbs is perfectly balanced in good Thai cuisine and the health-promoting aspects of these dishes - the antioxidant Tom Yum Syndrome - has been touted by Japanese scientists in recent years), it's obvious that you'd rather not eat Thai at all.

BTW It wasn't my case study, but Dr Goldberg's, and it matches the results of most such studies. Your own reactions, which you find convincing, also comes from a sample of one (you). These lists of symptoms you keep posting are anecdotal, they haven't all been elicited thorough scientic testing. A few have, yes (but not, in my opinion after reading through them, in a conclusive manner) but for the most part they are self-reports, which are of course not scientifically reliable.

Ex: A says "It's very hot in here." B checks a calibrated thermometer and says "It's only 19 deg C, it's not hot in here." Well you're probably never ever gonna convince A that the room isn't hot.

[Jet Gorgon]

Good argument, Sabai. I agree on your logic; also to add, on the few occasions I go to noodle soups stalls, I get the head pounders. So, it seems fair to conclude that it's my reaction to MSG. Is it hot in here?

[mko]

What do you mean that there is a difference between natural sugar and processed white sugar? I hope you are not talking about brown sugar, which as far as I am aware is just burned to give it that look/taste.

Also I see no difference between "processed" white table salt, and sea salt for example (which strangely enough is also white), I know that some salt is iodised but I wouldnt call that processed.

Are you serious? This is actually funny. No, I'm not talking about brown sugar, and natural unprocessed sea salt is generally pink or grey, depending on where it comes from. Here's a basic explantion:

Commercial refined salt is not only stripped of all its minerals, besides sodium and chloride, but it is also heated at such high temperatures that the chemical structure of the salt changes. In addition, it is chemically cleaned and bleached and treated with anticaking agents which prevent salt from mixing with water in the salt container. Unfortunately the anticaking agents perform the same function in the human body, so refined salt does not dissolve and combine with the water and fluids present in our system. Instead it builds up in the body and leaves deposits in organs and tissue, causing severe health problems.

Two of the most common anticaking agents used in the mass production of salt are sodium alumino-silicate and alumino-calcium silicate. These are both sources of aluminum, a toxic metal that has been implicated in the development of Alzheimer's disease and that certainly does not belong in a healthy diet. To make matters worse, the aluminum used in salt production leaves a bitter taste in salt, so manufactures usually add sugar in the form of dextrose to hide the taste of the aluminum

Do you really look at a bowl of sugar and think it grows out of the ground that way? Look, there's no point in arguing here about salt and sugar. I had a feeling that would be a poor analogy anyway. My point was...you can't claim something is completey safe and has no impact one way or the other on a human body simply because it is derived from a natural source. That was what was being implied about msg. Cocaine is derived from a natural plant. Does that mean it is completely safe and can't possibly have any adverse effect on the human brain or body?

Another thing to note is that whatever the toxicity of MSG may be, there are many other commonly eaten foods and seasonings with much higher levels of toxicity, such as soya products (from the same folks as the links above: soy toxicity).

Yes, soy definitely has a negative effect on some people, and the severity of impact can vary from person to person (no, I'm not going to take the time of post scientifc proof of this, but if I were to go drink a glass of soymilk, my throat would swell and breathing would become very difficult. This doesn't happen to all people.) My point is, food sensitivities are very complex. Some people have underlying conditions that cause them. Leaky gut, for example, is a digestive condition that can cause a non-celiac sensitivity to gluten. Other conditions can cause sensitivities to lectins, soy, casein, salicylates, legumes etc. etc. etc. Even if you don't think msg is dangerous to everyone, it seems very plausible that the OP might have some sort of underlying condition (I posted a list previously) that might cause extreme reactions to msg, regardless of how safe or unsafe it might be to others. Why is this possibility so bothersome to some of you? It just doesn't seem to me like a personal insult to Thai food in general or the people who do eat msg. It's easy to scoff at the notion of food sensitivities if you've never experienced them, but to some people they're very real.

[realthaideal]

This thread is giving me an adverse reaction - anxiety, frustration, and A BIG FAT HEADACHE ! I know the only cure is to stay the F#*% away from this thread. I am definitely highly allergic. It irritates my skin, make my eyes bulge, and raises my bloodpressure. Anybody with similar reaction best do same. Research has shown excessive griping and groaning with failure to take any action can cause this same reaction in others. It is very dangerous. Only choice- don't consume it. Only you can protect yourself !

[pampal]

What do you mean that there is a difference between natural sugar and processed white sugar? I hope you are not talking about brown sugar, which as far as I am aware is just burned to give it that look/taste.

Also I see no difference between "processed" white table salt, and sea salt for example (which strangely enough is also white), I know that some salt is iodised but I wouldnt call that processed.

Natural cane sugar is brown, it's processed heavily and bleach is used in the process to whiten it.

White sugar is pretty bad compared to the brown.

I don't know about salt, it's all Na Cl until it's iodised.