Thai And Chinese Cuisine Keep Using Msg

[sabaijai]

What do you mean that there is a difference between natural sugar and processed white sugar? I hope you are not talking about brown sugar, which as far as I am aware is just burned to give it that look/taste.

Also I see no difference between "processed" white table salt, and sea salt for example (which strangely enough is also white), I know that some salt is iodised but I wouldnt call that processed.

Natural cane sugar is brown, it's processed heavily and bleach is used in the process to whiten it.

White sugar is pretty bad compared to the brown.

I don't know about salt, it's all Na Cl until it's iodised.

I used to live near the C&H Sugar Company refinery in California and a neighbour who was a C&H employee told me that all sugar labelled as 'brown sugar' is white sugar that has been sprayed with molasses.

Found a detailed explanation at http://www.answers.com/topic/sugar :

Today's brown sugar is white sugar combined with molasses, which gives it a soft texture. The two most commonly marketed styles of brown sugar are light and dark, with some manufacturers providing variations in between. In general, the lighter the brown sugar, the more delicate the flavor. The very dark or "old-fashioned" style has a more intense molasses flavor. Brown sugar is usually sold in 1-pound boxes or plastic bags-the latter help the sugar retain its moisture and keep it soft. Hardened brown sugar can be resoftened by placing it with an apple wedge in a plastic bag and sealing tightly for 1 to 2 days. A firmly packed cup of brown sugar may be substituted for 1 cup granulated sugar. Both granulated and liquid brown sugar are also now available. Neither of these forms should be substituted for regular brown sugar in recipes. Though similar in color, brown sugar should not be confused with raw sugar, the residue left after sugarcane has been processed to remove the molasses and refine the sugar crystals. The flavor of raw sugar is akin to that of brown sugar. In this raw state, however, sugar may contain contaminants such as molds and fibers. The so-called raw sugar marketed in the United States has been purified, negating much of what is thought to be its superior nutritive value. Two popular types of raw sugar are the coarse-textured dry Demerara sugar from the Demerara area of Guyana, and the moist, fine-textured Barbados sugar. Turbinado sugar is raw sugar that has been steam-cleaned. The coarse turbinado crystals are blond colored and have a delicate molasses flavor.

[sabaijai]

Good argument, Sabai. I agree on your logic; also to add, on the few occasions I go to noodle soups stalls, I get the head pounders. So, it seems fair to conclude that it's my reaction to MSG. Is it hot in here?

How do you know it's not some other ingredient in the noodle soup? You need more than a simple correlation of two events to establish a causal link as long as there are other factors (ie, ingredients) present.

And those noodle shops can be awfully hot ...

[Jet Gorgon]

No, it's the MSG, Sabai. I know the effects it has on me.

[tgf7]

THERE HAVE BEEN MANY RECENT STUDIES IN THE USA THAT REPORT THAT MSG DOES NOT CAUSE ALL THE ADVERSE EFFECTS CLAIMED. WHEN USED IN SMALL AMOUNTS IT DOES INDEED MAKE SOME FOOD TASTE BETTER. IN THE USA, MSG IS CALLED "ACCENT". MOST CHINESE RESTAURANTS PUT "NO MSG" ON THE FRONT OF THE MENUS. I PREFER MY ASIAN FOOD WITH MSG, BUT IT SHOULD BE OPTIONAL....NOT OUTLAWED OR ANYTHING.

[Pink Mist]

THERE HAVE BEEN MANY RECENT STUDIES IN THE USA THAT REPORT THAT MSG DOES NOT CAUSE ALL THE ADVERSE EFFECTS CLAIMED. WHEN USED IN SMALL AMOUNTS IT DOES INDEED MAKE SOME FOOD TASTE BETTER. IN THE USA, MSG IS CALLED "ACCENT". MOST CHINESE RESTAURANTS PUT "NO MSG" ON THE FRONT OF THE MENUS. I PREFER MY ASIAN FOOD WITH MSG, BUT IT SHOULD BE OPTIONAL....NOT OUTLAWED OR ANYTHING.

why post in capitals?

[solo siam]

Sea Salt is white, even when unrefined although you can get different coloured salts which can have clay, seaweed or minerals. Go down to the sea and take a bucket of water out, leave it out in the sun, you will be left with salt, minerals and contaminents, the salt is the white stuff.

http://www.saltworks.us/salt_info/si_gourmet_reference.asp

Brown Sugar is actually white sugar simply with mollasses added, except for demerera sugar which is relatively unrefined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_sugar

[sabaijai]

No, it's the MSG, Sabai. I know the effects it has on me.

You believe that you know, when you experience X symptom after having eaten Y (mixed with A, B, C, D, etc).

But would you experience the same correlation in a double-blind experiment where all ingredients were controlled for? If so you would be the first, I believe, ever to be able to note the difference in such a situation. You'd make food toxicology history.

[cathyy]

if I had an adverse response to peanuts, I wouldn't order peanuts in a restaurant. However, I do get tangible adverse affects from MSG - it's been proven a thousand times. The difference between peanuts and MSG is that peanuts are a stand-alone item, or they're usually mentioned as an ingredient in a restaurant dish - plus they're visible (unless it's peanut sauce, etc). MSG, on the other hand, is not visible and it's NEVER mentioned on a menu.

My 3 year old granddaughter developed a serious peanut allergy reaction at Chili's in the US. Did anybody at the table have anything containing peanuts? No, it happened well before any food arrived. The waittress supplied her with crayons that had been used previously by a child who had eaten a peanut butter sandwich. People with a peanut allergy can't eat ice cream from Baskin Robbins unless they get the server to wash he ice cream scoop in hot water first, because it may have been used to scoop an ice cream that contained peanuts. THAT's an allergy, my friend. A visible quantity of peanut is not required, and they never tell you if something is cooked in peanut oil...

You merely have an intolerance to MSG, not an allergy. Deal with it here, preferably without annoying us about it, or move back to a place where its use is not ubiquitous. There are some lactose intolerant people in the US, but do you see signs in restaurants and on menus advertising lactose free foods? No, because the vast majority of Americans have no problem with lactose. It's not an issue. MSG isn't an issue here. It is YOUR problem, not the restaurant's.

[brahmburgers]

this thread is becoming stratified in to four categories:

1. people, like myself, who know without a glimmer of doubt that msg is Note, I didn't say I'm allergic - rather it's more of a toxic reaction.

2. people who may not experience symptoms, but who nevertheless can fathom the possiblities.

3. people, like sabaijai, who will not be convinced of others' sensitivity, no matter what. They seem to have an agenda on insisting that it's a hoax, or self-delusional, or..... I don't know what.

4. people, who simply say, "you don't like something about Thai restaurants, then why the heck do you live in Thailand! Go home to whatever god-forsaken place you came from and don't bother trying to assimilate here. And cetainly, don't presume you can change any Thai habits, because Thais have their own ways of doing things and they want and don't want any outside suggestions." ...or words to that effect.

Update, since starting this thread. I met three young Thais a few evenings ago. I offered to take them to dinner, and there was one large restaurant within walking distance so we went there. I voiced trepidation about msg (I'd been zapped there before), but decided to eat just a small portion. It was the heat-your-own type with a grill on the table. Lo and behold, that night I was tossing and turning for many hours. All the symptoms mentioned earlier came to haunt me in force. Two Advils, three aspirins, and three hours on the computer, and two glasses of water later, I got a couple hours of sleep by dawn.

Incidentally, a Singaporean doctor told me one remedy for toxic reaction to msg is to drink pop soda. I don't keep any on hand, but I will keep a can of coke in the cooler for future poisonings.

And yes, me going to that restaurant was dumb - I admit it.

[MarkBKK]

Update, since starting this thread. I met three young Thais a few evenings ago. I offered to take them to dinner, and there was one large restaurant within walking distance so we went there. I voiced trepidation about msg (I'd been zapped there before), but decided to eat just a small portion. It was the heat-your-own type with a grill on the table. Lo and behold, that night I was tossing and turning for many hours. All the symptoms mentioned earlier came to haunt me in force. Two Advils, three aspirins, and three hours on the computer, and two glasses of water later, I got a couple hours of sleep by dawn.

Hmmmm.

So let me see ... claimed reaction to MSG.

Refusal to believe it may be psychosomatic (even though the weight of evidence seems to suggest it is).

Repeat visit(s) to a place known to cause a reaction (psychosomatic or not).

Something sounds fishy.

Surely if you dislike the reaction you have (psychosomatic or not), you wouldn't go back to places that you knew caused it.

Is this not like banging your head against a brick wall? If you don't like the headaches, stop doing it.

[brahmburgers]

psychosomatic = 'an illness having a psychological cause.'

If you read what I wrote, you'll see I was trepidatious about going to that large popular restaurant, but because I was with 3 new Thai friends, and it was the only place nearby, I thought to try it and held myself to eating only a very small amount. I even admitted in my summary that it was 'dumb' in hindsight.

Dear MarkBKK, I'm not into self-affliction. I am not at all drawn to ingesting things that cause me distress & trouble all night long. Neither do I eat crud out of gutters, nor do I french kiss tailpipes of revving motorbikes.

You don't have to believe that I've got a serious problem with msg. I know unequivically, from forty years experience going to restaurants - that I do.

The initial point of this thread, and one that's still valid, is that msg is used in nearly every cooked dish you find in an Asian restaurant. It's never mentioned in the menu nor mentioned voluntarily by a restaurant worker/manager. Has anyone ever had a restaurant worker ask, "would like MSG with that?" or "are you ok with the fact that it includes MSG?"

Even when an Asian restaurant says it won't or it doesn't use the stuff, it's still possible it's in the dish - because the myriad added ingredients often include msg as part of their processing.

If I was lactose intolerant or had toxic reaction to peanuts, I would have a pretty good idea of what dishes/ingredients include those things - and subsequently avoid those.

For the minority of people like me then, the answer is simply, DON"T EAT IN ANY ASIAN RESTAURANT.

Ok, I'll do my best, but it's a bit dicey of an assignment for a person who chooses to reside in Thailand - for reasons other than the cuisine.

[toybits]

Just confirms that you ought to seriously think about packing up your bags and goind some place where you are less likely to have more misencouters with this nasty MSG. So count me under category number 4.

And yes! I agree that what you did was dumb.

this thread is becoming stratified in to four categories:

1. people, like myself, who know without a glimmer of doubt that msg is Note, I didn't say I'm allergic - rather it's more of a toxic reaction.

2. people who may not experience symptoms, but who nevertheless can fathom the possiblities.

3. people, like sabaijai, who will not be convinced of others' sensitivity, no matter what. They seem to have an agenda on insisting that it's a hoax, or self-delusional, or..... I don't know what.

4. people, who simply say, "you don't like something about Thai restaurants, then why the heck do you live in Thailand! Go home to whatever god-forsaken place you came from and don't bother trying to assimilate here. And cetainly, don't presume you can change any Thai habits, because Thais have their own ways of doing things and they want and don't want any outside suggestions." ...or words to that effect.

Update, since starting this thread. I met three young Thais a few evenings ago. I offered to take them to dinner, and there was one large restaurant within walking distance so we went there. I voiced trepidation about msg (I'd been zapped there before), but decided to eat just a small portion. It was the heat-your-own type with a grill on the table. Lo and behold, that night I was tossing and turning for many hours. All the symptoms mentioned earlier came to haunt me in force. Two Advils, three aspirins, and three hours on the computer, and two glasses of water later, I got a couple hours of sleep by dawn.

Incidentally, a Singaporean doctor told me one remedy for toxic reaction to msg is to drink pop soda. I don't keep any on hand, but I will keep a can of coke in the cooler for future poisonings.

And yes, me going to that restaurant was dumb - I admit it.

[brahmburgers]

My, my, Toybits, you're one toughie. Does that mean that anyone who complains about something they don't particularly like in Thailand - should pack their bags and split?

If you were a doctor, I pity your patients. They'd come in to see you with one problem or another, and you'd simplify your workload by simply shouting at them, "If you don't like it here, get the 'ell out, you wimp."

Or another 'poster as doctor' might say: "who says you've got indigestion or back pain(?) I don't see irrefutable scientific proof. It's probably all in your head, you wimpo. Get out of my esteemed office and don't waste my time."

Incidentally, I eat at home as often as possible. The food I prepare is cleaner, tastier (for me), and healthier than any I can find in restaurants. I grow some of my own veges and fruits also, so I know they're not chemi-laden - other than the occassional drift from neighbors spraying chemicals on their stuff.

[Gary A]

I'm quite fortunate that I'm able to eat nearly everything available here and not have any adverse affects. I am now able to eat the typical foods without asking them to take it easy on the hot peppers. I have eaten raw oysters and had no problems. I DO have one thing that I can't eat. The green clams that are very popular here make me deathly sick. I'm not talking about an upset stomach, I'm talking about being down on the bathroom floor and purging both ends at the same time. No one else who ate the clams had any problems. It took four times before I was absolutely positive what caused me to be sick. I think that maybe everyone has some food that will make them sick. Other than the green clams, I have found none.

[sabaijai]

psychosomatic = 'an illness having a psychological cause.'

If you read what I wrote, you'll see I was trepidatious about going to that large popular restaurant, but because I was with 3 new Thai friends, and it was the only place nearby, I thought to try it and held myself to eating only a very small amount. I even admitted in my summary that it was 'dumb' in hindsight.

Dear MarkBKK, I'm not into self-affliction. I am not at all drawn to ingesting things that cause me distress & trouble all night long. Neither do I eat crud out of gutters, nor do I french kiss tailpipes of revving motorbikes.

You don't have to believe that I've got a serious problem with msg. I know unequivically, from forty years experience going to restaurants - that I do.

The initial point of this thread, and one that's still valid, is that msg is used in nearly every cooked dish you find in an Asian restaurant. It's never mentioned in the menu nor mentioned voluntarily by a restaurant worker/manager. Has anyone ever had a restaurant worker ask, "would like MSG with that?" or "are you ok with the fact that it includes MSG?"

Even when an Asian restaurant says it won't or it doesn't use the stuff, it's still possible it's in the dish - because the myriad added ingredients often include msg as part of their processing.

If I was lactose intolerant or had toxic reaction to peanuts, I would have a pretty good idea of what dishes/ingredients include those things - and subsequently avoid those.

For the minority of people like me then, the answer is simply, DON"T EAT IN ANY ASIAN RESTAURANT.

Ok, I'll do my best, but it's a bit dicey of an assignment for a person who chooses to reside in Thailand - for reasons other than the cuisine.

Category 5: Those who take a scientific view, and don't accept self-reporting as valid or reliable in coming to conclusions about a common food seasoning.

Category 6: Those who suspect hypochondria.

[brahmburgers]

I can eat most things - in the sense that they don't give me adverse effects.

However, some of us get zapped once in awhile. It's interesting to note that people like Sabaijai and Toybits seem to never get adverse affects from food or additives. According to Sabaijai, if someone ate in a restaurant and got ill afterwards, that could be attributed to 'hypochondria' and/or 'self-reporting' and would not be worth paying attention to.

According to Toybits, if someone becomes ill from eating at a Thai restaurant, they should pack up and leave the country.

In a related story, twice I've been poisoned by oranges. Once in Santa Cruz California, and once in northern Thailand. It happened after I ate only oranges. Each time I felt a distinct burning in my intestine (left side) - so bad I was kneeling and puking on the bathroom floor for an hour. That would fit the odd label of 'self-reporting' but I doubt it's hypchondriatic or psychosomatic. Neither was it, as Toybits might propose, self-inflicted. I surmised that it was caused by a black mold that grows in over-ripe oranges. Either way, it was very real, and not imagined.

People who absolutely don't want to believe such things (the symptoms or the cause) are entitled to close their eyes and ears. Intellectually, an intelligent person can prove or disprove anything (by words) if they so choose.

[meadish_sweetball]

I can eat most things - in the sense that they don't give me adverse effects.

However, some of us get zapped once in awhile. It's interesting to note that people like Sabaijai and Toybits seem to never get adverse affects from food or additives. According to Sabaijai, if someone ate in a restaurant and got ill afterwards, that could be attributed to 'hypochondria' and/or 'self-reporting' and would not be worth paying attention to.

According to Toybits, if someone becomes ill from eating at a Thai restaurant, they should pack up and leave the country.

In a related story, twice I've been poisoned by oranges. Once in Santa Cruz California, and once in northern Thailand. It happened after I ate only oranges. Each time I felt a distinct burning in my intestine (left side) - so bad I was kneeling and puking on the bathroom floor for an hour. That would fit the odd label of 'self-reporting' but I doubt it's hypchondriatic or psychosomatic. Neither was it, as Toybits might propose, self-inflicted. I surmised that it was caused by a black mold that grows in over-ripe oranges. Either way, it was very real, and not imagined.

People who absolutely don't want to believe such things (the symptoms or the cause) are entitled to close their eyes and ears. Intellectually, an intelligent person can prove or disprove anything (by words) if they so choose.

It isn't about disproving things with words, it's about looking at what data is available and from those deduct the most likely cause and effect. Double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical studies disprove the claims you are making. They are the most accepted and effective method of assessing and measuring the effects of various substances. This type of studies, performed under controlled conditions, is what governments and health authorities base their decisions on. Do you know of a better method of assessing substances?

Sabaijai was saying your and other peoples' reactions could be attributable to other things than MSG. In the light of what the most controlled data suggests, is it really so hard to concede it might be so?

[pete_r]

The scientific studies say that the prevalence of MSG intolerance is very low, but that also means that there are a few people who are affected by MSG for real. If my information is correct the figure is between 1 in 100 and 1 in 1000 people, depending on the study one chooses to consider.

After reading through the thread I think it's perfectly possible that Brahmburgers is the unfortunate 1 in a 1000 who has this intolerance, but clinical tests would be needed to get a firm conclusion (self reported symptoms are not enough).

[sabaijai]

The scientific studies say that the prevalence of MSG intolerance is very low, but that also means that there are a few people who are affected by MSG for real. If my information is correct the figure is between 1 in 100 and 1 in 1000 people, depending on the study one chooses to consider.

After reading through the thread I think it's perfectly possible that Brahmburgers is the unfortunate 1 in a 1000 who has this intolerance, but clinical tests would be needed to get a firm conclusion (self reported symptoms are not enough).

Precisely. A variety of allergies and intolerances to foodstuffs and seasonings do occur in a minority of the population. It doesn't appear the MSG is any different in that respect. If I were BB, I'd seek out a food allergist and undergo some tests (and not just for MSG, but a broad spectrum of common food seasonings and ingredients).

[sheikyerbouti]

Hello,

We are staying at the Sheraton Laguna near Bang Tao for a week.

My wife is intolerant of MSG, but we love thai food. We want to try many different types of food from Bang Tao to Patong. I understand that for many people MSG is OK, however my wife develops migraines and sickness after eating MSG (confirmed by her naturopath and medical doctor doing sensitivity test), and she is pregnant, so it is bad for her to be sick and need a drug to be able to get out of bed. I do not want to argue that MSG is bad or good - for whatever reason, she cannot have it.

Can anyone please recommend restaurants with NO MSG. I know to ask hawker stalls not to add MSG, but unfortunately many sauces etc already have MSG added in manufacturing (we find this here in Australia in the ones imported from Thailand). So maybe it is safer for her to only eat in a restaurant. I am OK to eat anything.

Thanks.

PS for the person who was made sick by oranges, a friend of mine had the same thing, she is allergic to citrus! She can develop anaphylaxis to it.

Edited June 17, 2007 by sheikyerbouti

[realthaideal]

Hope your visit is going well. It is going to be hard to list what places are MSG free, but what I suggest is that you learn to say / have someone write down the simple sentence "Please don't usae any msg, my wife is allergic." Take this wherever you go and be sure to show it to the person making the food or the manager in a restaurant. Many people here are completely unaware the (rare) occurrence of allergy to msg, but most people here respect requests when framed around allergy, and will not get into trying to debate you whether it be true or not.

The sentence in Thai could be phrased a couple of ways, but should be something along the lines of "Mai sai cheu-rot, ne krap, pandrayah pen peh." 'Don't put MSG, please, wife is allergic."

Good luck. And repeat it again to make sure they get the message. Sometimes these things need repitition to sink in.