Belgian Embassy letter rejected by CW Immigration

[Thaidream]

3 hours ago, sweatalot said:

using this as a document to confirm something else than that your signature is your signature is just defrauding Thai immigration.

 

If it worked for so long this shows that they did not understand the letter. Why did they not request a translation by a confimed translator? Their mistake

 

Seems now they learn (at least some of them) to read and understand what they read.

 

No wonder when they are getting tough. And right so.

Now we all have to suffer from this mass abuse

Completely wrong.  The US Embassy gave each citizen an  Oath that the information presented was true- The Oath indicated if a person lied they would be subject to a felony and possible jail if convicted.

 

I and others never lied and when I went to Thai Immigration I always had incontrovertible proof of what I had sworn to on the Embassy Letter.  I was once asked to prove it by the Immigration Officer which I did and was accepted immediately.

 

Thai Immigration knew full well what the letters meant and how they were obtained. They have yearly meetings with all Embassies.  In May 2018 , with a new Immigration Commissioner, they were asked to go back to source and  verify the information.  Everyone knows this is impossible.  However, the US/UK/AUS Embassies saw this as a convenient way to stop the letters because they really didn't want to do them. 

 

IMO had they made a few changes to their system- the letters could be accepted easily.  The US Embassy could have asked for the proof and then give the Oath/  The UK Embassy already asked for the proof  so it is obvious  they did not want to continue for reasons only known to them but I doubt it had anything to do with fraud.

It is rather curious that the letters of 80 other Embassies are accepted except in a few isolated instances.

 

 

 

[Joe Mcseismic]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Completely wrong.  The US Embassy gave each citizen an  Oath that the information presented was true- The Oath indicated if a person lied they would be subject to a felony and possible jail if convicted.

 

I and others never lied and when I went to Thai Immigration I always had incontrovertible proof of what I had sworn to on the Embassy Letter.  I was once asked to prove it by the Immigration Officer which I did and was accepted immediately.

 

Thai Immigration knew full well what the letters meant and how they were obtained. They have yearly meetings with all Embassies.  In May 2018 , with a new Immigration Commissioner, they were asked to go back to source and  verify the information.  Everyone knows this is impossible.  However, the US/UK/AUS Embassies saw this as a convenient way to stop the letters because they really didn't want to do them. 

 

IMO had they made a few changes to their system- the letters could be accepted easily.  The US Embassy could have asked for the proof and then give the Oath/  The UK Embassy already asked for the proof  so it is obvious  they did not want to continue for reasons only known to them but I doubt it had anything to do with fraud.

It is rather curious that the letters of 80 other Embassies are accepted except in a few isolated instances.

 

 

 

Still in denial, I see.....

[Pattaya46]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

In May 2018 () they were asked to go back to source and  verify the information.

?? Source? I never read that in any thread or document.

 

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

they were asked to () verify the information.  Everyone knows this is impossible.

Maybe in YOUR country, but other countries have different system/rules and in mine (France) it's POSSIBLE to verify this income without going back to the source.

[smedly]

16 hours ago, stevenl said:

Nonsense, as long as the affidavit states that the income has been verified. That is exactly the reason this issue started, embassies not verifying and now claiming they can't verify.

I wouldn't like to bet on it, not sure you would either

 

as a few people have said already on this thread - make sure you have a plan B

 

I personally believe Thai Immigration has lost its way recently - I cannot see any justification for these recent rule changes - they achieve absolutely nothing and make no sense, the reason they gave was an effort to wipe out bribes to IO's for ignoring the seasoning rules through applications from agents - has it worked ?, if anything it seems agent use has increased and the bribes have increased - perhaps this was the real motive but I honestly doubt it.

[sumrit]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

IMO had they made a few changes to their system- the letters could be accepted easily.  The US Embassy could have asked for the proof and then give the Oath/  The UK Embassy already asked for the proof  so it is obvious  they did not want to continue for reasons only known to them but I doubt it had anything to do with fraud.

The UK, data protection laws prevent the Embassy from obtaining proof of income so they accepted copies of bank statements and pension letters as 'proof'. But they were so easy to photoshop they weren't worth the paper they were printed on. I personally know of two UK expats who did this every year. As they couldn't confirm somebody's income the UK Embassy had no choice but to stop issuing Embassy letters.

 

There are several posts on this forum saying that lying on a US affidavit is a felony and, if reported to the US Embassy, that person could be prosecuted. In theory that may well be true.....but that would involve the US Government prosecuting an American citizen who is living several thousand miles away in Thailand, and at the American taxpayers' expense. The US Embassy was probably told that was simply a non-starter so chose to stop issuing Affidavits instead.

[BertM]

I still see lots of anger, resentment and discussion on the forum about the 3 Embassies stopping the income letters and affidavits. I'm sure those emotions will continue for a long time. For those who are negatively affected, I hope you can find a way to meet the current requirements. Good luck to all...

 

For those who haven't read what was posted, I attached 2 documents below from the US Embassy website.

US Embassy - FAQs on Income Affidavits.pdf US Embassy - Facts on Income Affidavits.pdf

Edited May 5, 2019 by BertM

[Leaver]

42 minutes ago, BertM said:

I still see lots of anger, resentment and discussion on the forum about the 3 Embassies stopping the income letters and affidavits. I'm sure those emotions will continue for a long time. For those who are negatively affected, I hope you can find a way to meet the current requirements. Good luck to all...

 

For those who haven't read what was posted, I attached 2 documents below from the US Embassy website.

US Embassy - FAQs on Income Affidavits.pdf 418.96 kB · 1 download US Embassy - Facts on Income Affidavits.pdf 266.16 kB · 0 downloads

I think the day is not far away when immigration will not accept these letters.  Verified, or not verified.  Oath, or no oath.  It will not matter your nationality.

 

They will simply level the playing field for all foreigners, by demanding 65k every month come into Thialand, or 800k seasoned and 400k perpetual.  

 

The embassies will be happy, less work load.  Immigration officers will be happy, more people using agents.  Thai banks will be happy, more cash on deposit. 

 

People should be preparing for this.

[luckyluke]

20 minutes ago, Leaver said:

The embassies will be happy, less work load.  Immigration officers will be happy, more people using agents.  Thai banks will be happy,

The Honorary Austrian Consul-General in Pattaya will not be happy. 

 

He charges about 1600 Thb for every Letter of Income. 

[elviajero]

37 minutes ago, Leaver said:

I think the day is not far away when immigration will not accept these letters.  Verified, or not verified.  Oath, or no oath.  It will not matter your nationality.

I completely agree. That started to be written on the wall last October.

 

Quote

They will simply level the playing field for all foreigners, by demanding 65k every month come into Thialand, or 800k seasoned and 400k perpetual.  

It has never made sense that those using cash in the bank have had to actually transfer the money to Thailand and those declaring an income haven’t. The playing field is decidedly wonky.

 

I think once immigration get a taste for seeing transfers certified by local banks they will only want income proven that way.

[luckyluke]

3 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I think once immigration get a taste for seeing transfers certified by local banks they will only want income proven that way.

If indeed, for an officer, a Bank Certified Letter is as easy to read as a Letter of Income issued by an Embassy/Consulate, there is a great possibility the L.o.I. becomes history. 

[Leaver]

25 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

The Honorary Austrian Consul-General in Pattaya will not be happy. 

 

He charges about 1600 Thb for every Letter of Income. 

Thai immigration will redirect his fees to themselves, via an agent.  ????

[Leaver]

6 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

If indeed, for an officer, a Bank Certified Letter is as easy to read as a Letter of Income issued by an Embassy/Consulate, there is a great possibility the L.o.I. becomes history. 

The letters are already on the way out.  You can see where this is going.

 

People should be preparing, particularly when we saw how quickly the new laws were implemented. 

[luckyluke]

2 minutes ago, Leaver said:

The letters are already on the way out.  You can see where this is going.

Not really, as far as I know, the case of the o.p. is unique so far. 

 

No any notification so far on a Flemish forum and Flemish/Dutch blog. 

 

But you can never be wrong by saying : nothing is sure, you better be prepared. 

 

Everyone, and in every possible actual situation. 

[Leaver]

21 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Not really, as far as I know, the case of the o.p. is unique so far. 

 

No any notification so far on a Flemish forum and Flemish/Dutch blog. 

 

But you can never be wrong by saying : nothing is sure, you better be prepared. 

 

Everyone, and in every possible actual situation. 

Over time, and a few transfers of higher ranking officers, this nonsense with spread, and keep spreading.

 

I also think those on the 800k/400k method will be seeing some change in the future as well.  The amounts will probably go to 1 miliion / 600k.  

[Thaidream]

3 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Still in denial, I see.....

Denial about what?  Embassy letters mostly are being accepted without issue.  The only  Embassies not issuing the letters are the US/UK/AUS  and the Danish have reinstated them.  Therefore the 80 or so other Embassies in Thailand are issuing the letters and according to the police order of Thai imm they will be accepted.

In fact, if I could get another letter from the US Embassy- Thai Imm would accept it.

 

 if you want to look at the US Citizens Services Section of the US Embassy Columbia- they still issue Income Letters as long as a citizen has the proof to show them which is actually what the Thai Immigration  wants.  Why would the US Embassy in Bangkok not be able to issue Embassy Letters when Embassies in other countries can do it.

 

The Embassy Letter is and will be the easiest and best way to indicate one actually has an income stream if handled correctly.

 

The current police order for either income or money in the bank proves nothing- no income stream- only that an applicant can get their hands on the required funds- they could borrow it; they could recycle it; they could go to an agent.  

 

the Embassy letters in which a person shows actual documentation that they indeed have a permanent income stream such as a pension; stocks/bonds- backed up by a print out of their direct deposit -foreign or Thai- showing the exact same amount going into the bank as they stated under Oath  on their Embassy Affidavit is much better than the needless bureaucracy  of transfers or sticking borrowed money in a Thai Bank.

Some people think that eventually all Embassy letters will go away but I don't because they are an easy way for the applicant and IO to issue an extension. If the IO is in doubt he asks for the proof.

 

I wish everyone the best as they sort out what methodology works best for them.

 

it is my hope that we don't have to read about  aging expats who have a sufficient income stream but are unable to grasp the new regulations and system when a simple Embassy letter would have sufficed.( Such as the 90 year old expat posted recently).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sumrit]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

It has never made sense that those using cash in the bank have had to actually transfer the money to Thailand and those declaring an income haven’t. The playing field is decidedly wonky.

 

I think once immigration get a taste for seeing transfers certified by local banks they will only want income proven that way.

Now people, using 'money in the bank' though, have to keep all that money in the bank for 5/6 months and half of it for the rest of the year they don't have to show they have enough money for their monthly living allowance.

 

I agree with you that 'once immigration get a taste for seeing monthly transfers certified by local banks they will only want income proven that way' and that will prove to be the demise of the money in the bank option.

[Joe Mcseismic]

11 hours ago, sumrit said:

Now people, using 'money in the bank' though, have to keep all that money in the bank for 5/6 months and half of it for the rest of the year they don't have to show they have enough money for their monthly living allowance.

 

I agree with you that 'once immigration get a taste for seeing monthly transfers certified by local banks they will only want income proven that way' and that will prove to be the demise of the money in the bank option.

Or...........when immigration see the flood of people abandoning the 800k method and flock to the monthly 65k transfers, they may change the rules for the 800k seasoning.